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Daniel: Hello, hello.

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Daniel: Nestor, are you there?

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Nesters: Yeah.

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Daniel: Hello, good morning.

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Daniel: I guess this is not...

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Nesters: Yeah, this is completely...

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Daniel: Not your time, right?

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Daniel: It's completely different, yeah.

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Nico: Hey, can you guys hear me?

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Daniel: We can.

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Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

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Daniel: Loud and clear.

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Daniel: How are you?

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Nico: Doing good, thanks.

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Nico: What about you?

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Daniel: Yeah, doing great, doing great.

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Daniel: So it must be...

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Daniel: Niko, you're in the other time zone, right?

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Daniel: So it must be evening of tomorrow, of Thursday, right?

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Daniel: I'm still in Wednesday.

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Daniel: It's noon right now.

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Nesters: Actually midday, by the way.

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Daniel: Oh, I see, I see.

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Daniel: That's good, that's good.

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Nesters: It's surprising, but it's only like four or five hour difference from Europe.

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Daniel: Looks further on the map, yeah, but that's good, that's good.

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Daniel: Cool.

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Nesters: Yeah, so we definitely will have a different audience this time because I don't think most of the Europeans have woken up yet.

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Nesters: And Americans, I guess, are asleep.

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Nico: Yeah.

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Nesters: Except Daniel.

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Nico: I see Sandra, so I guess some Europeans are still awake.

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Nesters: Probably woken up.

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Nico: Either one of those.

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Nesters: Yeah, so yeah, we usually just do a, you know, just a talk for like approximately two hours.

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Nesters: I mean, we've gone three hours with someone, but yeah, our talk is basically about whatever the journey is and then just start asking specific questions, which the audience can ask at any time as well.

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Nesters: There's also a question that Dago sent in for you.

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Nico: Yeah, I'm scared of that.

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Nico: I hear the tricky thing, so let's do it again.

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Nico: In case it's tricky, I can just disconnect.

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Nesters: No, I probably can ask you somewhere in the middle.

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Nesters: But yeah, obviously, a lot of people will usually listen to the recording.

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Nesters: And for some people also, who's here or in the community, in like the SmallBets community, it would be nice also if you could, I guess, introduce yourself.

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Nesters: I know that many people actually know you, obviously, in the Indie Hacker space.

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Nesters: But for other listeners later, many are actually not from the Indie Hacker space.

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Nesters: So you could perhaps give at least a short introduction on how you started.

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Nesters: Yeah.

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Nesters: How did you even become basically an Indie Hacker or an entrepreneur?

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Nico: Entrepreneur, because I started almost 10 years ago.

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Nico: So there are lots of things between when I started and the moment I became an Indie Hacker.

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Nesters: Yeah, that's why I gave you that list.

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Nesters: I also mentioned a couple of points that perhaps would be important for you to highlight.

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Nico: Okay.

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Nico: Wait, I'm just going to grab some water really quickly because I'm going to be thirsty really quickly.

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Nesters: Yeah, I'll probably need some too.

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Daniel: And while we wait, Nestor, feel free to add me as host so that I can get a bit of a boost.

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Nesters: Oh, right.

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Nesters: Because I guess you can only request to speak, you can't request to...

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Daniel: Yeah, yeah, I don't think so.

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Nesters: Okay.

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Daniel: Yep.

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Nesters: Should be good now.

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Nesters: Cool.

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Nesters: I should actually probably give it to Nico as well.

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Daniel: Yes, yes, that would help, I think.

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Nesters: All right.

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Nesters: All right.

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Nesters: Okay.

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Nesters: Yeah, I invited you to co-host as well, Nico, by the way.

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Nesters: That's just for the sake of maybe a small boost for your audience.

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Daniel: For the algorithm, for the algorithm.

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Nico: Oh, wait, there are a few people already.

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Nesters: Yeah.

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Nesters: And these are not the usual ones.

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Nico: Should I click join as co-host?

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Nico: Yes, yes.

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Nesters: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Nico: Okay.

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Nesters: Yeah, that's just a boost for your audience as well.

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Nico: All right.

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Nico: All right.

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Nico: Okay.

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Nico: And...

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Nico: Oh, yeah, okay.

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Nico: Because I think I did one space like a while ago.

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Nico: But then I'm not really familiar with the interface.

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Nico: Okay.

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Nico: All right.

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Nico: Well, I don't know.

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Nico: When do you want to get started?

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Nesters: Oh, no, we can start now.

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Nesters: We can start discussing how you started, I guess.

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Nico: Yeah, okay.

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Nico: So I started, yeah, almost 10 years ago now as an entrepreneur in general.

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Nico: Because right after high school, I had a job, like a summer job in a bank.

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Nico: And it was really bad.

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Nico: So I just resigned after three days.

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Nico: And I was like, yeah, I'm never going to work for someone else again.

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Nico: So yeah, bye.

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Nico: So I resigned.

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Nico: And yeah, then I was just like, you know, trying to look online how to be an entrepreneur on Google.

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Nico: And it's like, you know, I was really starting from zero.

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Nico: Eventually, I found like, I don't know, it's like a group, not a club, but like a group in my hometown where, you know, it's like entrepreneurs and stuff.

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Nico: So I got in the startup ecosystem pretty quickly, I would say, but I was starting from zero.

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Nico: So I didn't do anything for like, I think, one or two years.

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Nico: And after that, I got started in e-commerce, like back when, like dropshipping and stuff.

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Nico: So that's how I got started with ads.

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Nico: Didn't really go anywhere.

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Nico: But because I developed the skills of, you know, managing ads and stuff like that, I was able to land a client as a freelancer.

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Nico: And it was pretty much my main client.

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Nico: So I worked for them for, I would say, close to five years, I think.

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Nico: And then after that, I like, I lost the client because he decided to go with, you know, someone cheaper.

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Nico: And I was like, OK, I don't want to rely on to have like one single point of failure, I would say, in terms of income.

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Nico: So that's why I was like, OK, my e-commerce skills are pretty useless on their own because like, you know, dropshipping was oversaturated and it's really hard.

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Nico: I think it's probably a skill issue, but for me, it was really hard to make something good, at least in terms of product.

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Nico: And yeah, so I was like, OK, I guess the only thing that can make sense is like programming to learn how to code.

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Nico: So, yeah, that's how I decided to learn programming.

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Nico: I just, same, I went on Google first, how to learn programming, watch some basic videos.

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Nico: And yeah, then I followed like a make your web apps course on Udemy or something.

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Nico: And then I started making my own apps and then I ended up selling one of them for $65,000.

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Nico: That was make logo AI.

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Nico: So it was like right when AI was new.

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Nico: So, yeah, I ended up selling it.

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Nico: And from there, I continued making more apps.

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Nico: I did talk notes that I sold.

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Nico: That was pretty much exactly like one year ago for $200,000.

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Nico: And then I started to work on like other projects.

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Nico: So I guess that would be about it for the intro, maybe.

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Nico: I don't know.

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Nico: You tell me.

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Daniel: Can I jump in with a question, Nico?

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Daniel: It's fascinating, because this sort of pattern that you build a software service and you sell it.

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Daniel: Is it something you're doing intentionally or it just happens by accident?

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Daniel: This starts a line, you had the opportunity and that's what you did.

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Nico: Yeah, so the first one, make logo was definitely not intentional.

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Nico: It's just that I, yeah, I didn't really knew how to grow the app.

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Nico: Because it's not like logos, an app to make logo is not something you can really grow with ads, because the intent is really specific.

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Nico: Like you need logos at one specific point of your business.

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Nico: So it's really hard to do ads for that.

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Nico: Or like, you can probably do it on Google, but I wasn't really familiar with Google ads back then.

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Nico: Still now, but so yeah, I didn't see a way to grow it.

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Nico: So I was like, okay, I don't know what to do with it.

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Nico: And then I saw like all those posts, you know, from Twitter, from Andrew, from Acquire.

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Nico: I was like, oh, you can actually sell startup.

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Nico: That's nice.

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Nico: I didn't know like that was a thing.

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Nico: So I just listed it out of curiosity, just to see what would happen.

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Nico: And I was pretty surprised because I got people interested.

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Nico: You know, I went on calls.

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Nico: So I was like, okay, there's potential.

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Nico: And I scheduled all the call in one day.

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Nico: And then after that, I just, yeah, I just sold it.

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Daniel: Very interesting.

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Daniel: What do you think, what makes a good buyer in this case?

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Daniel: Because presumably, you know, you were struggling to grow it.

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Daniel: Like, do you think like there was some synergy from the buyer that would have allowed them to grow it?

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Daniel: Or they had some skill or some other business going on?

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Daniel: Like, did you get any insight of like, what made it make sense to them?

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Nico: Well, honestly, I think for Makelogo, he was just into the AI hype.

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Nico: So I think the app is dead now.

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Nico: Like he, I don't know what they did with it, because I didn't really get in touch with them.

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Nico: But I think this buyer specifically, he just, well, I cannot like disclose too many info about him.

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Nico: But he had like a venture that had issues.

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Nico: And he was looking for like something to go after.

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Daniel: So it was an experiment, right?

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Daniel: You showed up and it was an experiment for him, presumably.

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Daniel: And it was a small bet, presumably, for him, right?

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Daniel: Basically.

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Nico: Yeah, pretty much.

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Nesters: But you did have like three buyers.

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Nesters: And the next one was like 5k lower, right?

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Nesters: So there was not that like, this was the only buyer and you got lucky, right?

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Nesters: There were actually multiple buyers for that.

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Nesters: Very cool.

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Nico: Yeah.

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Nico: So I had, I think the first one was like, I think, so I listed the app at like, slightly under what I wanted in terms of price.

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Nico: Because, you know, it's always better to get more people interested than none, because you put the price too high.

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Nico: And I didn't really do that.

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Nico: I mean, I did that intentionally, but I didn't know that it was actually a really good strategy.

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Nico: Because what happens after, and I scheduled all the call in one day, because I was like, yeah, I don't want to, you know, have all the call in those weeks.

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Nico: So it was more for efficiency.

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Nico: But the thing is, since I had them all in one day, then the first buyer was like, he gave me, he was like, yeah, yeah, okay, for the agreed price.

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Nico: And then I got on the next call, I was like, I already have someone.

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Nico: So he started to like beat slightly over.

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Nico: And then the next call, he also started to beat over.

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Nico: And yeah, so it created this interesting thing where they were all beating each other.

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Nesters: And the bidding was good, right?

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Nico: Yeah.

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Nico: Yeah.

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Nico: So that's ideally what you want when you're selling something is just start a bit lower than what you expect and try to get some beats.

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Daniel: That's very, very fascinating.

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Daniel: Very fascinating.

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Daniel: So do you think it's viable for, you know, entrepreneurs?

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Daniel: To be building SaaS businesses purely for selling relatively quickly, like you did?

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Daniel: Or do you think like it's a risky strategy?

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Daniel: Like if you, you know, if this would be the way of them sort of getting a payoff?

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Daniel: What do you think?

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Nico: I think, so the hard part in, you know, making an app that you can sell is getting, I would say the first, the validation.

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Nico: So for TalkNodes that was the initial MRO, for MakeLogo that was like having people coming monthly because it was not a subscription.

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Nico: MakeLogo was one time, TalkNodes was recurring.

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Nico: And then there is a third app that I sold like very recently, which was a clone of TalkNodes for veterinarians.

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Nico: And same, I like, I sold it because it was like, I reached like 1000 of MRO.

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Nico: So the problem of doing this, like launching and selling is the code base doesn't have any value.

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Nico: So even if you spend like one month working on it, like in 99% of the case, it's pretty much worthless because with AI now you can just make most of it pretty quickly.

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Nico: There are some exceptions, especially for strategic buyers.

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Nico: But I think most of the people on Acquire are looking for, you know, making money back from it like quickly.

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Nico: So the code itself doesn't have value.

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Nico: What's matter is the revenue and it's much harder to validate an app and get those initial revenue than to grow it after.

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Nico: So I think it's a better strategy as like, you know, either you're stuck or you want to move on or something.

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Nico: But just making an app, growing it slightly and then selling it.

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Nico: I'm not sure that's like a great strategy because the amount of effort required to find something to validate is just quite a lot.

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Nesters: What I got from your story, because we haven't gotten into it, but I've seen your videos.

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Nesters: Actually had to re-watch, I guess, some of them recently just to remember the context a bit more.

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Nesters: But for you is also that when you generally seem to be selling your products, you kind of also wanted to get like out of them because you started having a burnout or felt like that there's too much competition coming in.

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Nesters: Yeah.

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Nesters: So how did that actually change your...

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Nesters: So I guess from my perspective, I want to ask you, do you actually plan nowadays on just selling the product pretty soon when you build them?

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Nesters: Or is that something more like comes naturally because you start feeling like a burnout or like just competition perhaps getting harder?

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Nico: Yeah.

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Nico: So I know, for example, for MakeLogo, I didn't know you could even sell startups.

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Nico: So I didn't thought about it.

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Nico: But for Torque Nodes, I knew from day one that eventually I wanted to sell it.

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Nico: And I know I could grow it with that.

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Nico: And that's why I got started with it.

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Nico: But I didn't know when I wanted to sell it.

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Nico: And if I didn't, you know, burnout from it and all the other stuff that made me sell, I would have continued working on it.

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Nico: Because, again, it's much higher to grow a business from, I think, like, you know, maybe 5,000 MRO to 10,000 than from zero to even like 500 MRO.

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Nico: It's so much harder.

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Nico: So, yeah, I didn't plan to just quickly release and sell.

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Nico: And I don't plan to do that now, especially now that I have all the money from all the acquisitions.

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Nico: Then I don't need the cash right now.

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Nico: For MakeLogo and Torque Nodes, it was really nice because I didn't really have savings or stuff like that.

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Nico: So having the cash gives me a bit of security.

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Nico: But I don't think it's good to think, OK, I want to sell when it's at 5,000 MRO.

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Nico: It doesn't make sense.

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Nico: It's just if you don't think you can grow the app more or if there is like all the problems that really make it impossible to continue, then OK, yeah, it's maybe the time to consider selling.

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Nico: But, yeah, I think it's not wise to sell one when you know you can still grow it.

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Nesters: Yeah, I guess that answers the question because I was usually wondering, do you actually know what's a good time to sell?

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Nesters: But for you, it was those times it seemed to be a little bit more forced with the timeline.

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Nico: And I just want to add one thing because the best time to sell is when you don't need to sell.

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Nico: So that's like something you hear.

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Nico: And it's actually true because if like I sold Talknose because I burned out from it, but it was still growing.

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Nico: So the growth, like I was selling at the time where, you know, the growth curve, if you look at the MRO, it was like growing.

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Nico: So it was way more valuable than if it started to get a bit flat.

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Nico: So, yeah, I would say that's also something to consider.

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Nico: Like if you, you know, if you are thinking of making an exit, selling while it's growing can also be a strategy.

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Nico: But, you know, only if you actually need the cash or something, because otherwise it's going to be much harder to recreate something.

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Nico: But if you sell a growing startup, it's much more valuable than if the growth has become a bit more.

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Nesters: So if you would know that your growth potentially slowing down and it takes a little bit more effort to already gain that extra revenue, but you're still growing.

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Nesters: That might be a point where you could consider selling and someone else with more expertise perhaps could take over and take it to the next level.

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Right.

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Nesters: That could be.

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Yeah.

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Nico: Yeah.

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Nico: And that was one of the reasons for Talknose.

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Nico: So I burned out from it, but I also saw that, you know, there were like lots of competitors coming.

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Nico: And especially with ads where, you know, it's a bidding system.

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Nico: So the more people are on the market, the more expensive ads become.

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Nico: You know, Apple releasing the voice note feature transcription, et cetera, et cetera.

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Nico: So there are lots of things coming together.

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Nico: And that made me think, OK, maybe now is the right time.

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Nico: It's not just a burnout.

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Nico: There are like a few other things.

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Nico: But yeah, burnout was what started everything, I would say.

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Nesters: And about pricing.

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Nesters: Pricing and exit.

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Nesters: For example, I can imagine that I believe even the actual discussion during the times when you exited, I believe was like, you could have priced higher.

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Nesters: You know, why did you start low?

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Nesters: And why did you... I believe Maine was like, why did you start so low?

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Nesters: Could you wait longer to sell it?

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Nesters: And you already discussed and technically answered most of the questions.

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Nesters: Like, what would be the multiples you would be selling, should consider selling at?

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Nesters: And what made you select your multiple?

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Nico: Yeah.

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Nico: So I think it comes down a lot to what you want.

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Nico: For me, I wanted something fast.

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Nico: And I didn't want it like burnouts and stuff like that.

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Nico: Because I'm very... not paranoid, but like, I always, you know, think of the worst that can happen.

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Nico: So I didn't want it to risk my startup and like my source of income plus the exit money to disappear because the buyer was, you know, maybe not skilled enough or something.

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Nico: So for me, earnouts was out of the equation.

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Nico: So I wanted cash.

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Nico: And now 200 cash is like, it's not something that, you know, anyone can pull off.

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Nico: So I, if I did earnouts, I could probably have asked for like a much higher multiple.

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Nico: But again, I wanted cash, I wanted fast, like I didn't want it to have like, you know, two months of going back and forth with the seller, etc.

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Nico: So for me, that worked well.

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Nico: I think the multiple was maybe 2.5 or something like that, which is fairly low, especially for a SaaS.

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Nico: But again, it allowed me to get the money quickly, cash and without too much issues or without having to work on the product longer.

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Nico: So for me, that worked.

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Nico: But yeah, again, it really depends.

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Nico: Like if you if you're fine with earnouts over time, etc, then you can probably ask for a bit higher because it's easier for the other buyer to, you know, to give you this money because they get some from the app, etc.

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Nico: So I don't think there is like a definite answer to this question.

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Nico: It's just it really depends on your situation and what you actually want.

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Nesters: In your situation, you also never, you just sold all the assets, there was no agreement that you're staying with them, right?

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Nesters: Not consulting at all?

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Nico: Yeah, I had some buyers who wanted that, like, you know, asked me to help them, etc.

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Nico: And obviously, I prefer the one which was like, just I hand everything.

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Nico: And it's, you know, I'm still available if they need something or they need to, you know, brainstorm, whatever, but I'm not going to like hop on calls every week, etc, etc.

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Nico: So that was one of my condition, I would say.

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Nesters: Okay, so I guess I want to return a little bit back, I guess we can switch the topic.

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Nesters: So you were freelancing, I believe, for five years, mostly one client, right before you switch?

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Nesters: Yeah.

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Nesters: Yeah, I was gonna ask you that, because you built the make logo in like 48 hours, technically, obviously, you worked on it later.

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Nesters: But like, what, what exactly prompted you to like, just go from that freelance?

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Nesters: I know you mentioned the reason, but how did the actual switch happen in that moment?

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Nesters: Like, was it purely like, you felt like there's a, like, just need for more money?

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Nesters: And you're like, okay, I need to actually figure something else out.

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Nesters: But like, what prompted you to suddenly just like, switch to the coding and building apps?

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Nesters: Because I know that when you even started to make logo, it was like what you had less than 500 followers, I believe, before that specific project.

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Nesters: So you actually managed to build it without any following?

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Nico: Yeah, yeah, that's, that's correct.

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Nico: So I, yeah, so I was freelancing as like advertiser, and I had one main client who's like a fashion brand.

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Nico: I also had like a smaller clients where I was doing like classes of like a web marketing, it's like a French startup where for like new entrepreneurs launch a project, etc, etc.

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Nico: So I was also doing that on the side.

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Nico: But yeah, and I was doing eCommerce.

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Nico: So I really liked eCommerce because I was, you know, my own boss, sort of, and I own the project versus when you're freelance, you just do what, you know, the client wants, etc.

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Nico: So I like eCommerce more, but there was just so many issues with like, the shipping, you know, suppliers and stuff like that.

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Nico: So it's just both of those things, like issue with eCommerce, where I was my own boss, but, you know, the supplier could, like, you know, mess up the whole thing.

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Nico: And my client, like, okay, if I lose this client, then I'm like, I'm in a trouble situation.

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Nico: And I started to think like, okay, what would be the way to have full control over the whole process from production to distribution?

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Nico: And the only thing like, that makes sense was making apps.

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Nico: So I didn't know how to code, but that's the only thing that made sense for me.

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Nico: And I was like, you know, I always was a bit nerdy.

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Nico: So I knew like, the basics of like, HTML and CSS, because working on eCommerce and Shopify, I had to sometimes go into it a bit.

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Nico: But yeah, so I decided, okay, I'm just going to try and just see how it goes.

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Nico: And yeah, that's how I went into it.

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Nesters: I mean, I'm also from eCommerce space, so I completely understand that.

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Nesters: I find consulting clients, but actually doing eCommerce myself would not be something I would recommend or would want to get into.

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Nesters: Not the physical products.

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Nesters: You know, it's nice to take someone else's money, but putting my own money in that, especially like during your time, it was the dropshipping age, right?

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Daniel: Selling shovels, right?

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Daniel: I mean, you guys are shovel sellers.

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Daniel: In a good sense, of course.

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Nesters: I mean, it's a very hard business.

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Nesters: The margins are too low.

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Nesters: Any suppliers, anything in the chain could break apart.

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Nesters: Like COVID, for example, the pandemic completely broke the supply chains apart.

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Nesters: They had a client who had to airlift an additional supply from China and basically sell the product without margin just so they continue fulfilling orders.

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Nesters: Like, it's horrible.

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Daniel: You need to have a certain kind of personality, I think, that maybe gets energy from these kinds of problems rather than the opposite.

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Nesters: Yeah, we have one in the small bits too, I believe it was Fernando, right?

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Nesters: He says he enjoys that.

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Nesters: Yeah, Fernando.

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Daniel: And Peter, that's Q as well.

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Daniel: I mean, I don't know if he would say he enjoys it, but he leans into it.

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Daniel: I mean, I think SQ actually has a double whammy of headaches because not only it is with e-commerce, but it's also perishable.

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Daniel: He sells onions and he's dealing with all the farming side of all the randomness there.

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Daniel: Like, you know, it rains too much and the crop is going bad and, you know, there's like pests and whatever.

348
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Daniel: So, you know, it's insane.

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Daniel: Yeah, but he has a lot of stories at least.

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Nesters: And he actually bought Niko's course and started Facebook ads, I believe, later.

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Daniel: And he's doing really well, yeah.

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Daniel: And he keeps telling us how much Facebook ads have been great.

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Daniel: So, yeah, you know, you're good for the economy, Niko.

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Daniel: I don't know the details, but I really think Peter has found some good success with Facebook ads.

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Nesters: And Niko's course wasn't even meant for e-commerce, right?

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Nico: Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's explicitly written in the learning page.

357
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Nico: Like, is it made for e-commerce?

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Nico: And I say, no, they're like, better stuff for that.

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Nico: But I think it can still work because I, like, there is like a part about, you know, setup and everything.

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Nico: But it's more for like, it works for everything.

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Nico: It's just my angle is just SaaS and stuff like that.

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Nesters: Well, selling onions isn't exactly, you know, e-commerce.

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Nesters: Although you still rely on one supplier, technically, on the field.

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Nesters: And if something goes bad, like they had the hurricane that year as well.

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Nesters: So there was, I guess, some issues with the crop, but they managed.

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Nesters: And Daniel, I believe, did you already receive that?

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Daniel: I did, I did.

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Daniel: I already ate half of them.

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Daniel: So no, it's all successful.

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Daniel: And yeah, I mean, I've been ordering from Peter for about five years, never been disappointed.

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Daniel: But yeah, no, I think from his side, yeah, like hurricanes and all this stuff.

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Daniel: Yeah, not only do you rely on one supplier, I mean, you rely on like the gods in heaven that are sort of treating you well.

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Daniel: So it's crazy.

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Daniel: Now farming is insane combined with e-commerce.

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Daniel: But then, of course, he has to deal with like the logistics, UPS and, you know, and all that stuff as well.

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Daniel: So it's interesting.

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Daniel: I think his margins, again, I don't know the details, but I think his margins are decent.

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Daniel: So presumably, it's not a successful, maybe it's a very, very low margin product.

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Daniel: So a lot of these issues can be absorbed there.

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Daniel: But yeah, fascinating stuff.

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Nesters: Yeah, I mean, in e-commerce, generally, if you start talking about like, generally a good margin to start would be actually 30%, because then you can absorb a lot in case something happens, including the marketing costs going up.

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Nesters: But a lot of businesses operate in like around 10%, 15%, which makes things challenging.

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Daniel: It's crazy.

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Daniel: And especially if you handle the terms and things like that, I can't understand how, to be honest with you, sometimes even like Amazon, I can't understand how they actually manage to make money constantly.

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Nesters: They were losing money.

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Nesters: They were losing money for a long time, especially in Europe.

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Daniel: In Europe, yeah.

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Daniel: I think they're just broke even or like doing a bit better.

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Daniel: Now in the US, I think they've been profitable in the retail side for a while, quite well, actually.

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Daniel: But yeah.

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Nesters: They did find that past profitability was with ads.

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Nesters: They literally became the ad marketplace for the product.

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Nesters: So that's how they started making money.

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Daniel: It complicates things because they commingle all the numbers together.

395
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Daniel: So you don't know if it's like retail because of what they're selling directly or because of the third party, where they have absolutely no risk.

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Daniel: They're just charging basically a fulfillment fee.

397
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Daniel: So no, it's true.

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Daniel: Maybe they're still losing money then and it would make sense.

399
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Daniel: Because especially here in the US, there's like same or next day delivery for very small items and you can return them and everything is free.

400
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Daniel: It's so bizarre.

401
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Daniel: I mean, knowing how thin the margins are.

402
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Nesters: I think we need to get back to the e-commerce.

403
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Nesters: I mean, he's an e-commerce guy.

404
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Nesters: I mean, maybe he can add even more, but yeah, we should.

405
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Daniel: I mean, to give you an example, I'm taking a trip with my kids next weekend.

406
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Daniel: I'm ordering like silly things like USB cables and stuff.

407
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Daniel: And it's incredible.

408
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Daniel: You order this $4 USB-C cable the next day in a package and then you order another one by mistake and you just return it and it's all free.

409
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Daniel: Like, where's the margin in this?

410
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Daniel: Who's making money?

411
00:31:42,740 --> 00:31:50,380
Daniel: I mean, this USB cable probably traveled from China to the United States, was sitting in a warehouse, got picked up by some robot.

412
00:31:51,140 --> 00:31:53,680
Daniel: Did you have a UPS driver delivered it to my doorstep?

413
00:31:53,820 --> 00:31:59,540
Daniel: Like, how much money can be made with this $4.99 thing?

414
00:31:59,540 --> 00:32:03,800
Nesters: I guess Nico mentioned that also in his video of selecting ideas.

415
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:05,740
Nesters: The answer there is scale.

416
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:18,720
Nesters: And that's why actually businesses who sell off Amazon and on Amazon as well, they rely on Amazon to also provide some of the scale so they can actually lower the per unit cost, basically, of distribution.

417
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,260
Daniel: Interesting.

418
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:19,840
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

419
00:32:20,100 --> 00:32:22,700
Daniel: It was based on this thing.

420
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:24,460
Daniel: I had to make it up in volume or whatever.

421
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:28,320
Daniel: I had some saying a long time ago.

422
00:32:28,620 --> 00:32:30,680
Daniel: So maybe that's what it is.

423
00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:39,580
Nesters: Yeah, because the business can sell on their own store, make more money, but they can sell on Amazon as well, make less margin because of all the fees and etc.

424
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:41,740
Nesters: However, they get extra distribution.

425
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:45,200
Nesters: So with the increased volume, the unit cost is a little bit lower.

426
00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:49,900
Nico: I mean, it's like supermarkets.

427
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:56,700
Nico: The margin is just so ridiculous, but they sell millions of units.

428
00:32:57,020 --> 00:32:58,260
Nico: So they still make money.

429
00:32:58,460 --> 00:33:02,980
Nico: But yeah, you need either good margins or a large volume to have anything profitable.

430
00:33:05,940 --> 00:33:06,380
Nesters: Yeah.

431
00:33:06,380 --> 00:33:10,160
Nesters: I guess I wanted to ask because you obviously moved to Bali, right?

432
00:33:10,220 --> 00:33:12,480
Nesters: That was where you spent most of the time.

433
00:33:13,500 --> 00:33:15,700
Nico: So I moved to Bali, but now I'm in Bangkok.

434
00:33:16,220 --> 00:33:19,260
Nesters: Yeah, I know you're in Bangkok, but I guess you initially moved to Bali.

435
00:33:21,260 --> 00:33:24,740
Nesters: Obviously, you were in the hacker community.

436
00:33:24,940 --> 00:33:26,420
Nesters: That's where you also built in public.

437
00:33:26,620 --> 00:33:27,860
Nesters: You grew some following.

438
00:33:29,940 --> 00:33:31,480
Nesters: When you moved, were there friends?

439
00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:40,680
Nesters: Did you already have friends in the community at the time and in Bali that actually perhaps would also motivate you or help you out?

440
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:43,140
Nico: No, actually not at all.

441
00:33:43,260 --> 00:33:51,240
Nico: So I left friends and I didn't know anyone outside of friends because I was just like starting out.

442
00:33:51,380 --> 00:33:54,560
Nico: So I went in Bali and I was still doing e-commerce back then.

443
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,640
Nico: So then I met some e-commerce people, etc.

444
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,420
Nico: But then when I made the switch to software, I didn't know anyone.

445
00:34:01,660 --> 00:34:03,340
Nico: I wasn't even on Twitter.

446
00:34:03,340 --> 00:34:09,000
Nico: And it's like one day, just at my co-working, I met a guy who was like, hey, you should check Twitter.

447
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,520
Nico: There is a really nice community like IndieHackers, etc.

448
00:34:11,540 --> 00:34:14,860
Nico: And then I discovered all those people making their apps.

449
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,200
Nico: I was like, wow, that's amazing.

450
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:24,380
Nico: And from there, I became friends with other people like Mark, who one day randomly invited me to get lunch with him.

451
00:34:24,460 --> 00:34:25,180
Nico: So I was like, okay.

452
00:34:25,420 --> 00:34:27,720
Nico: And that's how I met most people, actually.

453
00:34:27,720 --> 00:34:33,520
Nico: It's just from Twitter, you know, and then one day we get lunch or dinner and then we know each other.

454
00:34:33,660 --> 00:34:36,560
Nico: And yeah, so I didn't know anyone when I was starting.

455
00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:45,340
Nesters: So, yeah, because from your videos, I can understand, or even some of the blog posts, etc.

456
00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:47,920
Nesters: I've seen, I guess you haven't been exactly very outgoing.

457
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,620
Nesters: There was a story about MakeLogo, was it?

458
00:34:51,940 --> 00:35:01,580
Nesters: That you, around the sailor, what did you said that you hadn't been, like your beach is like five minutes away, but you haven't been there for like five months.

459
00:35:01,720 --> 00:35:05,940
Nesters: And then you're in like Bali, I guess, at the time, which is like the place you actually want to be outside.

460
00:35:07,940 --> 00:35:08,820
Nico: Yeah, yeah.

461
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:13,720
Nico: So when I started to go like, okay, I need to really like, you know, focus and log in.

462
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:23,820
Nico: And I just I never went out like literally every single day I was so I was in like a co-working, like I was living in my co-working, they had like rooms you can rent.

463
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:27,380
Nico: And I just never went out like never.

464
00:35:28,340 --> 00:35:30,520
Nico: So I was just like focus and stuff.

465
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:38,380
Nico: And I know people find that, you know, weird, but I just wanted to, like, you know, I could go to the beach and stuff like that.

466
00:35:38,460 --> 00:35:40,560
Nico: But then it's time I wouldn't spend working in the business.

467
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,700
Nico: And that would just eventually like slow me down.

468
00:35:42,820 --> 00:35:44,800
Nico: So that was my, my thinking.

469
00:35:44,940 --> 00:35:46,460
Nico: And it kind of still is.

470
00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:49,240
Nico: I actually haven't visited much in Thailand.

471
00:35:49,660 --> 00:35:55,180
Nico: But, but yeah, it's a rally goes out.

472
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:57,720
Nico: I'm just staying in the in the cave.

473
00:35:58,500 --> 00:36:00,720
Nesters: Yeah, because you're you're monk mode, I guess.

474
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,080
Nesters: That's, that's what we call it.

475
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:02,460
Nesters: Yeah.

476
00:36:02,860 --> 00:36:05,300
Nesters: It's been, it's been pretty controversial.

477
00:36:05,580 --> 00:36:17,960
Nesters: I do remember the discussions, including I believe that was about your girlfriend where you locked in, were gone, I believe, for a long time when you're working on the project, and people were obviously commenting on that.

478
00:36:18,280 --> 00:36:25,160
Nesters: And like, so like, how does that actually, because you have had some bad events, like one was like, it's with the food poisoning or whatever.

479
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,760
Nesters: Yeah, I don't remember exact details.

480
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:34,880
Nesters: But like, does your like health, you know, relationships, I don't know, like you're evenly or sanity, like the leading to burnout?

481
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,560
Nesters: How does that actually work with that monk mode?

482
00:36:37,720 --> 00:36:44,500
Nesters: Because I can't imagine myself really locking into a room and just like, just working all the time.

483
00:36:44,500 --> 00:36:49,700
Nesters: Like, is that the path you can recommend to someone that how, like, how do you manage it?

484
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,440
Nico: Um, that's actually a good question.

485
00:36:53,660 --> 00:36:58,660
Nico: So yeah, when I was starting out, I don't think there would have been any other way.

486
00:36:59,240 --> 00:37:03,000
Nico: And especially when I'm launching something new, like I really need to work a lot.

487
00:37:03,060 --> 00:37:11,000
Nico: But the problem is, when you do that, you become so much like, in the business and not on the business.

488
00:37:11,000 --> 00:37:14,460
Nico: So you you're really stuck in the operational, fixing bugs, etc.

489
00:37:14,540 --> 00:37:17,480
Nico: And that completely like kills creativity.

490
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,680
Nico: And I think you need creativity to make it work.

491
00:37:19,700 --> 00:37:20,500
Nico: And to make good decisions.

492
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:28,760
Nico: And, like, I think this is one of the reason why, like, since I saw talk notes, I feel like I've been stagnating a lot.

493
00:37:28,900 --> 00:37:40,940
Nico: And I think this is one of the reasons because I've, I kept this rhythm of, you know, being like, really locked in all the time and not enough time to think, reflect, assess and change things eventually.

494
00:37:41,740 --> 00:37:50,920
Nico: So, um, yeah, it's it's not something you want to do for long term, unless you have like, an exact plan that you can follow.

495
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,660
Nico: And you don't really need to, you know, think and stuff like that.

496
00:37:53,680 --> 00:38:00,560
Nico: Because, yeah, it's just not good for, like creativity and thinking and stuff like that.

497
00:38:00,580 --> 00:38:07,680
Nico: So, yeah, and obviously, it leads to, like burnout eventually, like if you just keep doing it.

498
00:38:07,780 --> 00:38:10,920
Nico: So, like, honestly, right now, I'm starting to get a bit, you know, I'm starting to get a little bit tired of it.

499
00:38:10,940 --> 00:38:12,940
Nico: Like, okay, that's not that great.

500
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:16,580
Nico: So I'm probably going to take some vacations pretty soon.

501
00:38:17,580 --> 00:38:25,080
Nico: But yeah, it's something that I think I would recommend when you're just starting out, and you need to have lots of things done, and you know exactly what you have to do.

502
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:39,040
Nico: But once you reach a point where you're like, okay, like, if you, if you need to, you know, reassess, etc, then you and you stay stuck in the operational, then you're not going to be able to make good decisions, I think.

503
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,700
Nesters: Yeah, I have one question from Orly.

504
00:38:44,180 --> 00:38:48,120
Nesters: He asked it in SmallBits community, which is basically the chat we can sometimes use.

505
00:38:48,460 --> 00:38:58,780
Nesters: But for this discussion was like, do you like, in a way, maybe regret that you're being locked in at such a young age, you know, that you're not actually enjoying more of life?

506
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:05,000
Nesters: I kind of know, I feel like the answer might be no, based on what I've, like seen in the background.

507
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,420
Nesters: But like, do you feel like there's something you're missing right now?

508
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:08,280
Nesters: If you do that?

509
00:39:09,940 --> 00:39:22,220
Nico: No, like, I had some regrets when, after I dropped high school, and you know, I saw all of my friends, they, you know, had all those parties and, you know, having fun, etc.

510
00:39:22,260 --> 00:39:24,740
Nico: And I had some regrets a bit back then.

511
00:39:24,940 --> 00:39:35,360
Nico: But now, like, you know, I'm really happy that I did this sacrifice, because now they're like, you know, they are, some of them still don't have a job, they're struggling.

512
00:39:35,720 --> 00:39:38,460
Nico: Some of them have a job, but they're like, they don't really like it.

513
00:39:38,460 --> 00:39:41,100
Nico: So I'm really glad I didn't went this way.

514
00:39:41,460 --> 00:39:48,560
Nico: But as for now, like, it's like, I really don't regret because I would, I would not be where I am today if I didn't went through that.

515
00:39:48,780 --> 00:39:50,560
Nico: So, you know, they talk not sexy, etc.

516
00:39:50,740 --> 00:39:53,140
Nico: Like it gives me some good amount of cash.

517
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:57,500
Nico: And I'm, like, you know, fairly safe in that regard for now.

518
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:03,040
Nico: And I wouldn't be able to do that if I didn't went through all that, I think.

519
00:40:04,720 --> 00:40:09,080
Nesters: Yeah, and it's actually a good, good way to transition to Daigo's question.

520
00:40:09,240 --> 00:40:12,100
Nesters: And he's actually right now in the space listening.

521
00:40:12,300 --> 00:40:15,960
Nesters: So if he wants to ask it himself, that's actually fine too.

522
00:40:17,420 --> 00:40:21,940
Nesters: Like, you can request to speak if you want to, in case you're listening.

523
00:40:22,100 --> 00:40:22,400
Nesters: But yeah.

524
00:40:23,500 --> 00:40:26,840
Nesters: Um, yeah, but I also need to drink some water.

525
00:40:29,300 --> 00:40:33,620
Daniel: There should be, there should be a feature here to force someone to speak, like...

526
00:40:33,620 --> 00:40:34,500
Nesters: Force someone, yeah.

527
00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:37,640
Nesters: I'm just going to invite him to speak and see if he accepts.

528
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:38,900
Daniel: Oh, I think he's, I think he's coming.

529
00:40:39,100 --> 00:40:39,600
Daniel: He's coming.

530
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:40,080
Daniel: He's coming.

531
00:40:40,240 --> 00:40:40,820
Daniel: Yeah, just up to you.

532
00:40:45,820 --> 00:40:47,160
Daniel: Yeah, no, I just woke up.

533
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,420
Daniel: I just didn't realize it was going to be this morning.

534
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,640
Nesters: I'm going to the gym, but, you know, so keep going.

535
00:40:54,820 --> 00:40:55,680
Nesters: I was just curious.

536
00:40:56,700 --> 00:41:01,260
Nesters: Okay, I mean, I'll ask your question now, just so you can hear your own question, I guess.

537
00:41:02,500 --> 00:41:12,120
Nesters: So in the past, you have told Daigo, I guess, that you want to be a millionaire before 30, but you seem to sometimes lose some motivation.

538
00:41:12,340 --> 00:41:14,560
Nesters: As you also mentioned, now you want to take some vacations.

539
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:17,800
Nesters: So you want to have that little bit more time aside.

540
00:41:19,300 --> 00:41:21,800
Nesters: Where do you stand with that right now?

541
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:22,820
Nesters: Are you still following?

542
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:28,820
Nesters: Maybe even if it's later than 30, are you still following on that path that you want to hit that milestone?

543
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:36,360
Nico: Yeah, that's funny that he decided to ask this question, because I was, like, that's what I was mentioning.

544
00:41:36,620 --> 00:41:39,780
Nico: Like, right now, I'm really start, like, thinking about things, etc.

545
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:41,320
Nico: and including that.

546
00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:47,400
Nico: So, yeah, that was, like, you know, a promise I made to myself when I was, like, a teenager.

547
00:41:47,540 --> 00:41:51,200
Nico: I was like, yeah, if I'm not millionaire by 30, I would, like, jump off a building or something.

548
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,900
Nico: So, yeah, I still aim for that.

549
00:41:54,960 --> 00:42:04,280
Nico: But I think the problem with this thinking is that it forces me into this fight against the time nonstop.

550
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:11,020
Nico: And I feel like I always have to work, like, to be constantly working, and I'm not progressing toward my goal.

551
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:22,420
Nico: But the issue is that is what I was mentioning earlier is just, then I'm not able to, you know, take a step back, assess and think, okay, is this the best use of my time right now?

552
00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,320
Nico: Like, should I be even working on this project, etc.

553
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:31,680
Nico: I don't have, like, a definite answer with that.

554
00:42:31,940 --> 00:42:34,100
Nico: But, yeah, I don't know.

555
00:42:34,220 --> 00:42:38,800
Nico: It's like, I'm in a phase where I need to reassess things.

556
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:45,060
Nico: Because, again, I feel like I've been not growing as much as I wanted since I sold Torque Nuts.

557
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:48,400
Nico: And I'm still, like, pretty burned out.

558
00:42:48,720 --> 00:42:53,860
Nico: And so, yeah, it's still something I'm, you know, thinking of.

559
00:42:53,860 --> 00:42:57,540
Nico: So, yeah, I don't have, like, a definite answer for this question.

560
00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,660
Nesters: Are you burned out from the last project?

561
00:43:00,940 --> 00:43:02,400
Nesters: I mean, it happened, like, a year ago, right?

562
00:43:03,060 --> 00:43:12,540
Nesters: Or is it more like, not necessarily the burnout, but you, as you say, you're reassessing things because there's, like, the value maybe shift.

563
00:43:13,540 --> 00:43:16,800
Nesters: I don't know, like, related also to relationships, etc.

564
00:43:16,900 --> 00:43:21,660
Nesters: Like, there's obviously a change occurs than you, like, your life circumstances change.

565
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:27,260
Nico: Yeah, well, it's funny because I see that Mark is here and we had lots of talk about that.

566
00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:41,440
Nico: But, yeah, it's, I would say, so after Torque Nuts, I was, like, really burned out, especially because then I started the YouTube video and I just did an insane amount of work in very little time.

567
00:43:41,900 --> 00:43:43,760
Nico: But I didn't want it to stop right away.

568
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:49,400
Nico: So, I started working on the clone of Torque Nuts for Veterinarian and also on another app, like, A-B Testing.

569
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:57,080
Nico: So, I didn't really have much time to rest after the burnout, or, like, after the exit.

570
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:06,220
Nico: And then when, so, I would consider that both of those projects failed, the Veterinarian one and the A-B Testing one.

571
00:44:06,780 --> 00:44:13,400
Nico: So, when both of those failed, I got the drawback from both the burnout, but also the failure.

572
00:44:13,580 --> 00:44:17,160
Nico: And that was, like, a really not that great time.

573
00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,640
Nico: So, then I, like, that was, like, back in November, I would say.

574
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:30,380
Nico: So, then, yeah, I kind of, like, stopped working completely almost for, like, a month, just, you know, time to...

575
00:44:30,380 --> 00:44:31,940
Nico: I didn't want it to do anything.

576
00:44:32,060 --> 00:44:34,880
Nico: There was nothing I could do to grow the apps anyway.

577
00:44:37,300 --> 00:44:40,660
Nico: But, yeah, then I got, like, hit for, like, a few months, I would say.

578
00:44:40,900 --> 00:44:43,600
Nico: I'm starting to get back into it now.

579
00:44:44,720 --> 00:44:49,600
Nico: But, yeah, that definitely puts...

580
00:44:50,380 --> 00:45:00,260
Nesters: By the way, I kind of understand you go into these energy waves and the kind of burnout slumps obviously take you down a little bit more than they should.

581
00:45:00,540 --> 00:45:07,780
Nesters: I mean, even for us, like, doing the weekly app, we had Dago two apps ago, you could say.

582
00:45:08,420 --> 00:45:14,220
Nesters: And it was, like, after that app, I was, like, so how do we, like, follow up from Dago?

583
00:45:14,340 --> 00:45:15,620
Nesters: Like, how do we counter it?

584
00:45:15,860 --> 00:45:24,680
Nesters: Like, do we go from this vision ship slow part or ship not, whatever you call it, to, like, this, like, ship fast?

585
00:45:24,820 --> 00:45:30,940
Nesters: Which I guess you, including you in a way, but someone else, like, how do we top the Dago's app with the next one?

586
00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,220
Nesters: I started feeling, like, I need to, like, beat it or something.

587
00:45:34,220 --> 00:45:36,200
Nesters: And there was, like, additional pressure.

588
00:45:36,560 --> 00:45:38,560
Nesters: And we had audio issues with Dago's app.

589
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,120
Nesters: So I was, like, how do we prevent those audio issues, etc.

590
00:45:41,240 --> 00:45:53,040
Nesters: And I went down the rabbit hole, which actually ended up that we just skipped the next week because I was just, like, feeling, like, a little bit burned out from the pressure, I guess, and the things that went on this sideways.

591
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,640
Nesters: So we started with the next app only, like, last week.

592
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:58,900
Nesters: So there was a break.

593
00:45:59,100 --> 00:46:04,340
Nesters: And I could feel it, like, it's just energy wise, just feeling worse post that.

594
00:46:04,720 --> 00:46:07,980
Nesters: And that was just a small, just a small event, right?

595
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:17,760
Nesters: But you somehow just end up, like, getting that, not even burnout, but that just that bad feeling that you need to somehow get over it.

596
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:26,060
Nico: Yeah, I mean, it's, yeah, sometimes I would say that's, you know, something I used to be against.

597
00:46:26,060 --> 00:46:30,400
Nico: But yeah, I think sometimes it's good to take a step back and maybe relax a little bit.

598
00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:32,080
Nico: And then you are more creative.

599
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:35,200
Nico: And I think Mark can attest to that.

600
00:46:35,880 --> 00:46:47,380
Nesters: Yeah, I mean, if Mark wants to comment on Niko's living in an apartment locked in in Bali or in Thailand, he can speak on that as well.

601
00:46:47,620 --> 00:46:50,600
Nesters: If you're free to join the discussion as well.

602
00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:58,800
Nesters: But yeah, but because you also have a technically you could consider a failure with your AB testing one, right?

603
00:46:59,700 --> 00:47:00,220
Nesters: Yeah.

604
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:20,340
Nesters: Was it because the way I feel it like in them, especially if your audience is more related to the like, solopreneur in the hacker community, anything to do with ads and like the AB testing, like the CRO side, it's analytics, it's a little bit hard.

605
00:47:20,340 --> 00:47:34,740
Nesters: I mean, except basic analytics, obviously, but it's a little bit harder sell, it seems, because people are not used to either putting their money on the line, obviously, for various reasons, or also that they're not particularly interested in optimizing,

606
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,540
Nesters: rather than they just interested in the vibes.

607
00:47:37,680 --> 00:47:40,960
Nesters: They use the social media to grow most of the time.

608
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:47,800
Nesters: There's like this mismatch, I guess, when you're trying to market that product.

609
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:51,020
Nesters: Obviously, you're using ads, so you can approach different audiences with it.

610
00:47:51,300 --> 00:48:07,800
Nesters: But like, how do you feel about that when you're basically, I guess, used to also using your audience maybe to even do the product on launch, but then you maybe try to market the product that doesn't resonate with your audience.

611
00:48:08,580 --> 00:48:09,580
Nesters: How does that?

612
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:18,860
Nico: Yeah, so I think, so I wanted to do the AB testing app, because there was no good alternative.

613
00:48:19,780 --> 00:48:26,160
Nico: So when I was like growing talk notes, I wanted to test things, but then it was like, you know, $300 per month, which is absurd.

614
00:48:27,460 --> 00:48:29,720
Nico: So I was like, yeah, I'm just going to make my own app.

615
00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:36,040
Nico: And I think this is, you know, bad reasoning from my end.

616
00:48:36,080 --> 00:48:51,700
Nico: And this is why I think I should have taken maybe a bit more time off after talk notes to, you know, assess because it's, I mean, honestly, that's a product I'm the most proud of in terms of from a technical point of view and actual product quality.

617
00:48:51,700 --> 00:49:09,860
Nico: But yeah, it's not something that, like, I was counting on marketing it, like organically, because it's not something you can really promote with ads, in the sense that you cannot really go on like Facebook ads and say, hey, do you want to do a B testing?

618
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:14,440
Nico: Like, it's one of those products where the need is at a risk, like a very specific time.

619
00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:17,900
Nico: It's like, okay, I've reached this stage in my business, and I want to start testing things.

620
00:49:18,600 --> 00:49:26,500
Nico: And you either like you, you know, you look at the alternatives, and you either, you know, maybe make your own internal stuff or use something that exists.

621
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:29,920
Nico: So it's really hard to market with ads.

622
00:49:30,260 --> 00:49:34,580
Nico: So the logical thing for me was to use, you know, content, Twitter, etc.

623
00:49:34,580 --> 00:49:53,900
Nico: But the thing is, as you mentioned, people don't really think about A-B testing, conversion rate optimization, stuff like that, because this is like more technical audience, and they don't have this, I would say, like, education where I come from a marketing background.

624
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:58,080
Nico: So I, like, I know for me, this is like super obvious.

625
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:08,200
Nico: So this is like a really bad thinking on my end, thinking of like, oh, I made the product for myself, so other people will like it.

626
00:50:08,280 --> 00:50:13,320
Nico: So I think, like, I still use it every day, and I still improve it, because I use it for myself.

627
00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:24,220
Nico: But yeah, that's, that's bad thinking of thinking like, oh, just because you use a product, it doesn't mean that other people would also want to use it.

628
00:50:24,220 --> 00:50:29,740
Nico: So yeah, it's bad judgment from my end for this one, I think.

629
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:41,680
Nico: And like, to have, you know, you like to make it work, it will require first lots of like education, you know, make lots of educative content, which is hard to like, it's really time consuming to produce.

630
00:50:42,140 --> 00:50:49,640
Nico: But also it's like, there is only a small amount of people who can, who could actually benefit from it.

631
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:56,620
Nico: Because like people just starting out and they have like, you know, 10 visitors per day, then it's, it's not going to make a difference for them.

632
00:50:56,720 --> 00:51:02,600
Nico: So it's really a misalignment of what I wanted and what the market wanted.

633
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:05,680
Nico: So yeah, if that answers the question.

634
00:51:06,620 --> 00:51:10,880
Nesters: Yeah, I have the same issue, I guess.

635
00:51:11,020 --> 00:51:14,280
Nesters: I mean, I'm not launching these products in the space, but I probably should.

636
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,460
Nesters: I'm still more on the consulting side.

637
00:51:16,780 --> 00:51:21,420
Nesters: So that's why I haven't launched these products.

638
00:51:21,620 --> 00:51:24,740
Nesters: But I have always looked at it, especially the indie hackerspace.

639
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:30,520
Nesters: And I'm like, first, I looked at SEO, and I felt like people are not utilizing SEO.

640
00:51:30,700 --> 00:51:32,340
Nesters: And that was like 2022.

641
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:35,600
Nesters: The ads were also getting more expensive at the time.

642
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:41,480
Nesters: So a lot of ecommerce businesses also started expanding more to SEO, for example.

643
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:47,560
Nesters: And I felt like in the indie hackerspace, like the SEO at that time was not utilized as much as it is now.

644
00:51:48,160 --> 00:51:52,180
Nesters: And Peter Levels even started tweeting about it more back then.

645
00:51:52,380 --> 00:51:54,280
Nesters: It actually led to him blocking me.

646
00:51:54,700 --> 00:51:57,220
Nesters: But that's a different issue.

647
00:51:58,820 --> 00:52:02,920
Nesters: But yeah, so during that time, SEO was one thing.

648
00:52:03,060 --> 00:52:08,460
Nesters: And then later, I noticed also a transition that some people slowly started adapting ads.

649
00:52:08,460 --> 00:52:14,100
Nesters: I noticed that the CRO space barely gets mentioned in the space.

650
00:52:14,500 --> 00:52:20,740
Nesters: Honestly, the CRO stuff I mostly see mentioned from the guys like Danny, for example.

651
00:52:21,380 --> 00:52:25,320
Nesters: Yeah, because he actually looks at it as an ecommerce business, which makes sense.

652
00:52:25,420 --> 00:52:30,260
Nesters: When you start looking at things as an ecommerce business, you actually start thinking about optimizing.

653
00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:41,540
Nesters: So yeah, I also noticed the same because that type of product is actually really hard because your audience is significantly smaller, to be honest.

654
00:52:41,740 --> 00:52:49,720
Nesters: If you want to focus on the conversion rate optimization, then you're targeting, for example, your audience on the social media.

655
00:52:49,720 --> 00:52:55,000
Nesters: You're going after a very small portion, which are higher MRR, usually businesses.

656
00:52:56,620 --> 00:53:07,160
Nesters: And maybe those who have some decent traffic volume from SEO, even if they don't have MRR, they maybe have some kind of programmatic SEO, etc.

657
00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:14,200
Nesters: Maybe they can utilize some kind of input, I guess, testing to see if the conversions are better, etc.

658
00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:14,960
Nesters: for the funnel.

659
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:26,460
Nico: And usually when they are at this stage where they have millions of visitors or whatever, then the tools available that cost $300 per month, it's not a problem for them.

660
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:30,780
Nico: And they have more features and stuff like that where I cannot really compete.

661
00:53:30,940 --> 00:53:34,420
Nico: So it's like, yeah, again, really bad judgment from my end.

662
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:40,740
Nico: I think it's just, yeah, I think I should have taken more time to think probably.

663
00:53:41,900 --> 00:53:47,120
Nesters: So with that product, are you still going to try to market it?

664
00:53:47,340 --> 00:53:55,220
Nesters: Are you going to try to do like maybe a SEO with some tools like the calculators or something like that, that could make people...

665
00:53:55,220 --> 00:54:03,240
Nesters: Oh, here's the traffic you need, you're qualified for a B-test and here's the tool you can use to, you know, something like that.

666
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,360
Nico: Yeah, so the thing is I really suck at SEO.

667
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,400
Nico: I don't know what I've tried many times.

668
00:54:11,720 --> 00:54:12,560
Nico: Nothing I do works.

669
00:54:12,740 --> 00:54:16,300
Nico: Like it's just, I don't know, I'm unlucky in that regard.

670
00:54:18,100 --> 00:54:19,580
Nico: But actually, yeah, I've tried.

671
00:54:19,760 --> 00:54:23,760
Nico: I've started to make like a few free tools and stuff like that for it.

672
00:54:23,900 --> 00:54:27,540
Nico: But at this point, it's like I have a few users still.

673
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:30,820
Nico: So it's just, I don't know, mainly for myself.

674
00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,320
Nico: Like when I want a feature, I add it and then it's available for myself and other users too.

675
00:54:36,960 --> 00:54:41,800
Nico: But yeah, I think it's, I will try to, you know, do a bit of SEO from time to time.

676
00:54:41,920 --> 00:54:47,140
Nico: But I think, I don't think that's going to be like, you know, a big success or whatever.

677
00:54:47,460 --> 00:54:48,260
Nico: Like, like talk notes.

678
00:54:48,400 --> 00:54:51,260
Nico: It's like maybe, you know, they're like, yeah.

679
00:54:52,380 --> 00:54:56,560
Nesters: Is your tool, it was like you can integrate it in Next.js, et cetera, right?

680
00:54:58,200 --> 00:54:58,640
Nico: Sorry?

681
00:54:59,080 --> 00:54:59,700
Nico: I didn't get that.

682
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,600
Nesters: Could you integrate the tool with Next.js?

683
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:04,180
Nesters: Yeah.

684
00:55:05,060 --> 00:55:07,080
Nesters: What was the tag that you could integrate with?

685
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:09,040
Nico: Yeah.

686
00:55:09,060 --> 00:55:14,060
Nico: So I actually, I learned how to make like NPM packages for like, you know, React and Next.

687
00:55:14,100 --> 00:55:14,840
Nico: I don't use Next.

688
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:16,000
Nico: So I had to learn the basics.

689
00:55:16,820 --> 00:55:24,840
Nico: Like, that's why I said from a technical point of view, that's the thing I'm the most proud of because I want to like great length to, you know, have it work.

690
00:55:26,460 --> 00:55:31,540
Nico: But yeah, so it works with like Next and all the like main frameworks.

691
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:38,900
Nico: But yeah, still, it's just it's too niche, like most of the like, at first it was server side only.

692
00:55:39,080 --> 00:55:43,920
Nico: So and then I, you know, I got some feedback that people just wanted like to install a script.

693
00:55:44,120 --> 00:55:46,140
Nico: And then I made like a no code version.

694
00:55:46,420 --> 00:55:48,160
Nico: And that seems to be what working best.

695
00:55:48,280 --> 00:55:50,740
Nico: I think no one even uses the packages I made.

696
00:55:51,660 --> 00:55:52,540
Nico: But yeah.

697
00:55:53,020 --> 00:55:54,740
Nesters: I guess this is the good example.

698
00:55:54,740 --> 00:56:05,320
Nesters: Yeah, when you go a little bit too technical, maybe in your expertise is and there's a slight mismatch with the audience not being actually the same.

699
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:16,380
Nesters: And I wonder like, for people who actually maybe commit to the same mistake to like, obviously, you also feel demotivated from it.

700
00:56:16,420 --> 00:56:24,260
Nesters: So is there like something you have learned from maybe how to avoid that that you fall into a trap that maybe you're over committing to it?

701
00:56:24,260 --> 00:56:26,260
Nesters: Maybe you need to feel like you need to kill it?

702
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,360
Nesters: Or maybe you should take a break earlier?

703
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:33,060
Nesters: How do you like make sure you actually don't like don't dig deeper into that?

704
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:33,460
Nico: Yeah.

705
00:56:35,240 --> 00:56:35,680
Nico: Yeah.

706
00:56:35,900 --> 00:56:40,100
Nico: So I don't have like a full process for that yet.

707
00:56:40,240 --> 00:56:42,120
Nico: I'm working toward it, I would say.

708
00:56:42,200 --> 00:56:49,560
Nico: But I think the first thing is not assuming that because I want something that other people also would want.

709
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:59,260
Nico: So, you know, for like, there is like something I want to build related to ads, but this is something really niche.

710
00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:01,920
Nico: It's like more like software to manage ads for multiple accounts.

711
00:57:02,040 --> 00:57:06,200
Nico: But then again, you know, it's very specific.

712
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:10,220
Nico: It's probably agencies and stuff like that, like other than people like me.

713
00:57:10,220 --> 00:57:19,780
Nico: So I don't know, I need to, you know, maybe talk a bit with more potential users to see if that could be interesting.

714
00:57:20,020 --> 00:57:23,520
Nico: But yeah, I think talking with users is really number one thing.

715
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:30,280
Nico: So maybe, like, I really like free launches, because it completely avoids this.

716
00:57:30,380 --> 00:57:32,320
Nico: Like, if it doesn't work, then you can just move on.

717
00:57:34,160 --> 00:57:40,580
Nico: I'm not sure how to apply that to SaaS, because I did it for maker ads, I did it for ads template.

718
00:57:40,880 --> 00:57:42,060
Nico: And, you know, that worked great.

719
00:57:42,140 --> 00:57:45,380
Nico: Then I was able to see that, okay, people are interested and are actually paying.

720
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:50,540
Nico: So now I can spend, you know, a month recording, making the guide, etc.

721
00:57:52,100 --> 00:57:53,340
Nico: And not wasting time.

722
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:54,960
Nico: So I think this is great.

723
00:57:55,020 --> 00:57:57,320
Nico: And that's something I probably want to do more.

724
00:57:57,480 --> 00:58:02,000
Nico: So I need, I don't know, I need to think of a process for that.

725
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:09,500
Nico: So if, I think if I cannot make, you know, a base version in, like, less than one or two weeks, then I need to do pre-orders.

726
00:58:09,660 --> 00:58:14,740
Nico: Because Testit took me, like, one month to make, because it was just so many things to do.

727
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:18,900
Nico: So yeah, Testit is AB testing app, just in case.

728
00:58:20,680 --> 00:58:26,480
Nesters: Yeah, I just thought about that app, because you say you can support Next.js now.

729
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:41,100
Nesters: The wipe code, like, if you do wipe coding projects, and if you start wipe coding, and just let the AI generate everything, especially if you use V0s or something else, most of the time, it will suggest you that you use Next.js.

730
00:58:41,500 --> 00:58:43,880
Nesters: So there is a benefit of that.

731
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:48,940
Nesters: I might even try your product for that and just see how it works for AB testing.

732
00:58:49,220 --> 00:58:51,640
Nesters: I'm actually interested, like, how that works.

733
00:58:51,940 --> 00:58:54,000
Nesters: So I might at least give it a try, yeah.

734
00:58:54,000 --> 00:59:00,540
Nesters: Because nowadays, I just let the AI generate everything for me.

735
00:59:00,700 --> 00:59:02,220
Nesters: You know, Next.js, okay, fine.

736
00:59:02,700 --> 00:59:05,680
Nesters: Although, just like you, I would actually prefer Next.js.

737
00:59:05,860 --> 00:59:11,860
Nesters: I used to use it for the AI, but I know that, unfortunately, AI doesn't work very well with every single site.

738
00:59:12,280 --> 00:59:16,840
Nesters: So you kind of need to lean into what it's strong at sometimes.

739
00:59:18,020 --> 00:59:22,780
Nesters: And I have used React and Next.js a little bit, I'm just not super familiar with it.

740
00:59:22,780 --> 00:59:24,920
Nesters: But I'm fine with that for now.

741
00:59:25,020 --> 00:59:27,160
Nesters: For the smaller projects, I think it's okay.

742
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:29,860
Nico: Yeah, I don't know.

743
00:59:30,140 --> 00:59:32,440
Nico: I just got used to Next.js and I really love it.

744
00:59:32,780 --> 00:59:35,660
Nico: I tried Next.js, it's just, I don't know.

745
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,960
Nico: It gives me a headache when I look at it.

746
00:59:39,100 --> 00:59:40,260
Nico: So I don't want to use it.

747
00:59:41,220 --> 00:59:50,960
Nico: But yeah, I think for products where you need to actually install it on your website with packages and stuff, you really need to have Next.js.

748
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:58,880
Nesters: And yeah, you also mentioned the thing about talking to people before you assume things.

749
00:59:59,660 --> 01:00:09,200
Nesters: Yeah, I think the user interviews, obviously, they could kill the idea of what the potential audience is in your mind very quickly if they just don't resonate.

750
01:00:09,740 --> 01:00:18,760
Nesters: You try to talk to them and there's nothing coming back as a feedback that they'll be buying or they completely have a different problem than you imagined.

751
01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:20,560
Nesters: So obviously, that would be nice.

752
01:00:20,700 --> 01:00:29,540
Nesters: And that would obviously identify for you that perhaps you can't speak to your Twitter audience that they won't resonate with the product.

753
01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:33,440
Nesters: So that's a good point.

754
01:00:34,460 --> 01:00:40,220
Nico: I think that's something I want to mention for people who listen.

755
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:42,600
Nico: I used to really hate it.

756
01:00:42,720 --> 01:00:45,880
Nico: For me, calls were like, yeah, hell no, I'm never going to do calls, etc.

757
01:00:45,880 --> 01:00:47,240
Nico: But then I started to do it.

758
01:00:47,380 --> 01:00:49,860
Nico: And that's how I came up with a veterinarian app.

759
01:00:50,040 --> 01:00:53,680
Nico: So I got on a call with a TalkNotes user who was a veterinarian.

760
01:00:53,800 --> 01:00:57,640
Nico: And he told me, hey, this app is great.

761
01:00:57,900 --> 01:00:59,800
Nico: I think it could be very useful for that.

762
01:00:59,860 --> 01:01:02,880
Nico: But they probably won't use a general app.

763
01:01:03,020 --> 01:01:05,260
Nico: They would want something tailored specifically for vets.

764
01:01:05,460 --> 01:01:07,560
Nico: So I ended up copy-pasting the code.

765
01:01:07,660 --> 01:01:08,740
Nico: It was exactly the same app.

766
01:01:08,780 --> 01:01:09,940
Nico: I just changed the name, the colors.

767
01:01:11,380 --> 01:01:19,940
Nico: But because I talked with this user and I was able to niche down and the subscription on TalkNotes was maybe between $5 and $10 per month.

768
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,140
Nico: For the veterinarian one, it was $50 per month.

769
01:01:23,500 --> 01:01:27,640
Nico: And people were happy to pay that amount because it was made specifically for them.

770
01:01:27,800 --> 01:01:37,900
Nico: So I think if you talk with them, then you can really uncover really good insights, both for product development and marketing.

771
01:01:38,140 --> 01:01:44,920
Nico: Because I did calls with lots of users for the veterinarian app because I don't even own a pet.

772
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:46,760
Nico: So I don't know anything about the industry.

773
01:01:46,940 --> 01:01:56,280
Nico: But by talking with them, for example, one told me, yeah, I always finish my work late.

774
01:01:56,540 --> 01:01:59,560
Nico: So I leave the office late and stuff.

775
01:01:59,780 --> 01:02:10,700
Nico: And I got this insight and I used it to make an ad on Facebook where it was just playing a white background and just a headline saying, no more late night at work.

776
01:02:10,700 --> 01:02:12,740
Nico: And that was my best performing ad.

777
01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:27,740
Nico: But I only was able to get to this point because I talked with this user who gave me this little piece of, I don't know how to call it, but yeah, information, basically, that resonates with them.

778
01:02:28,040 --> 01:02:36,400
Nico: So I think, yeah, there is lots of benefit to actually talk with your users on actual calls, not just emails.

779
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:42,580
Nesters: We actually have Francesco in the audience as well, who's from the mobile community.

780
01:02:43,700 --> 01:02:45,880
Nesters: He's the resident expert in ads.

781
01:02:46,300 --> 01:02:50,300
Nesters: Obviously, he's more experienced, I guess, with Google Ads and Facebook Ads as well.

782
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:57,580
Nesters: I mean, I guess he started with Google Ads as far as I remember, but obviously later got into the Facebook Ads as well.

783
01:02:59,000 --> 01:03:06,580
Nesters: So he obviously also talks about if you start with a product, you obviously need to talk to the users first.

784
01:03:09,380 --> 01:03:13,600
Nesters: That's the main issue often is that we assume too much.

785
01:03:14,500 --> 01:03:23,320
Nesters: And obviously, you mentioned the important point is that when you niche down to a specific audience, you could increase the price.

786
01:03:23,800 --> 01:03:27,040
Nesters: And that's also that scale versus the niching down thing.

787
01:03:27,340 --> 01:03:34,920
Nesters: When you go to a smaller scale, there's a more specific problem, so you also avoid some of the competition for ads potentially.

788
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:37,740
Nesters: And you're also niching down at the same time.

789
01:03:37,920 --> 01:03:40,680
Nesters: You can increase the premium for the perceived value.

790
01:03:42,180 --> 01:03:47,740
Nico: Yeah, and it makes everything easier in a sense, but also you get the downside.

791
01:03:47,960 --> 01:03:51,980
Nico: In this specific case, it was pure B2B sales.

792
01:03:52,180 --> 01:03:57,000
Nico: So I had clinics with 50 vets.

793
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:07,000
Nico: I wasn't the right fit for that because I've never done sales on a big scale, etc.

794
01:04:07,220 --> 01:04:11,780
Nico: Even some had 500 multiple sub clinics, etc.

795
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:20,280
Nico: So it was not a good product for me, but I'm still happy that I went through the experience of that.

796
01:04:20,500 --> 01:04:35,520
Nico: But yeah, you have to balance the volumes of scale, but also what you can do with it because obviously if you focus on lawyers, then you might have a hard time talking with them if you don't know any legal terms.

797
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,720
Nico: So yeah, that's also something to consider.

798
01:04:40,500 --> 01:04:50,760
Nesters: Yeah, I guess we had someone who wanted to potentially speak, but disappeared, maybe had a question.

799
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:54,060
Nesters: I mean, he did emoji and then he disappeared.

800
01:04:54,240 --> 01:04:56,660
Nesters: Maybe the question was answered, but I don't know.

801
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:02,260
Daniel: I'm curious, how did the relationship with Marc happen?

802
01:05:02,540 --> 01:05:07,400
Daniel: Because I know you sort of helping Marc and you had some interesting creative campaigns.

803
01:05:07,860 --> 01:05:08,760
Daniel: So how did that start?

804
01:05:08,980 --> 01:05:11,560
Daniel: I never really saw the genesis of it.

805
01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:19,020
Nico: Yeah, I think we just went on Twitter, DMed someone who was like, hey, do you want to get lunch at my place?

806
01:05:19,080 --> 01:05:20,260
Nico: And I was like, oh, cool.

807
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:21,260
Nico: Who's this weirdo?

808
01:05:21,280 --> 01:05:22,320
Nico: Like, I don't know him.

809
01:05:22,840 --> 01:05:25,160
Nico: I don't know this guy and he's inviting me at his place.

810
01:05:25,160 --> 01:05:26,500
Nico: I was like, okay, whatever.

811
01:05:26,660 --> 01:05:27,440
Nico: I would just go.

812
01:05:27,740 --> 01:05:30,600
Nico: And I'm not really a social person at all.

813
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:36,760
Nico: So I think Marc and Testify was super awkward at first, like really shy.

814
01:05:37,500 --> 01:05:43,320
Nico: But yeah, he's really outgoing and he's good at making you feel...

815
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:45,980
Nesters: Was he wearing a shirt the first time you met?

816
01:05:47,240 --> 01:05:48,340
Nico: No, no, no, no.

817
01:05:48,340 --> 01:05:48,960
Nico: Of course not.

818
01:05:51,660 --> 01:05:55,700
Nico: Yeah, that's Marc.

819
01:05:56,540 --> 01:05:58,220
Nesters: That's what he's known for now, yeah.

820
01:06:00,860 --> 01:06:01,960
Nico: But yeah, and then...

821
01:06:02,860 --> 01:06:09,060
Nico: So I would say we were not super friends at this point, but then we kept talking on Twitter and stuff.

822
01:06:09,140 --> 01:06:14,260
Nico: And then at some point he was like, hey, I'm going to get a wedding in Korea.

823
01:06:14,540 --> 01:06:15,200
Nico: Do you want to come?

824
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:18,180
Nico: I was like, oh, okay, whatever.

825
01:06:18,180 --> 01:06:21,280
Nico: I was just like, okay, let's go.

826
01:06:21,420 --> 01:06:25,100
Nico: Because that was the first time I was taking vacations, like I don't know how many years.

827
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:28,600
Nico: And yeah, that was really nice.

828
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:29,640
Nico: And we became more friends.

829
01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:32,380
Nico: And with Dan Kulkow.

830
01:06:33,540 --> 01:06:37,660
Nico: But yeah, that's how we became friends, basically.

831
01:06:38,040 --> 01:06:38,640
Daniel: That's amazing.

832
01:06:38,900 --> 01:06:43,640
Daniel: And then sort of the advertising assistance happened later, I imagine.

833
01:06:43,840 --> 01:06:44,920
Daniel: So this was the start.

834
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:46,600
Nico: Yeah.

835
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:46,880
Nico: Yeah.

836
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:47,960
Daniel: That's very interesting.

837
01:06:48,420 --> 01:06:52,100
Nico: He didn't have ShipFast back then.

838
01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:53,600
Nico: So it was like right...

839
01:06:55,160 --> 01:06:57,620
Nico: So Korea was like right before ShipFast.

840
01:06:57,880 --> 01:06:59,760
Nico: And then ShipFast started to work.

841
01:06:59,840 --> 01:07:02,140
Nico: And I was like, man, you should try ads.

842
01:07:02,580 --> 01:07:05,120
Nico: I think there is some potential and we give it a shot.

843
01:07:06,260 --> 01:07:06,740
Nico: And yeah.

844
01:07:07,820 --> 01:07:08,380
Daniel: And that's great.

845
01:07:08,660 --> 01:07:14,180
Daniel: And not asking to reveal any of Mark's secrets, even though I know he's very open with things.

846
01:07:14,180 --> 01:07:17,900
Daniel: But I imagine they were successful, the campaigns, from what I can tell.

847
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,120
Daniel: It's like you've been quite successful with ads.

848
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:22,260
Daniel: Is that accurate, perceptional?

849
01:07:22,420 --> 01:07:27,080
Daniel: Or was it more challenging than we see from the outside?

850
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,880
Nico: So the thing is, we had an issue with tracking.

851
01:07:36,040 --> 01:07:37,040
Nico: So we...

852
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:38,620
Nico: The ads were over-attributing.

853
01:07:38,840 --> 01:07:43,840
Nico: So I don't know for sure what the difference was between the result for ShipFast.

854
01:07:43,840 --> 01:07:46,960
Nico: But then eventually we noticed it and we fixed it.

855
01:07:47,140 --> 01:07:49,520
Nico: But it was like for when we started for CodeFast.

856
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:51,980
Nico: So for CodeFast, it's like...

857
01:07:51,980 --> 01:07:53,820
Nico: It's pretty...

858
01:07:53,820 --> 01:07:56,680
Nico: I wouldn't say slow, but we don't put too much budget into it.

859
01:07:56,700 --> 01:08:01,080
Nico: Because the pool of audience is like...

860
01:08:01,080 --> 01:08:03,140
Nico: I wouldn't say limited.

861
01:08:03,440 --> 01:08:08,840
Nico: But I think this is a kind of product that might require a bit more funnel.

862
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:11,580
Nico: But for now, the ads we have are profitable.

863
01:08:12,540 --> 01:08:15,660
Nico: But we just cannot scale it, I think.

864
01:08:16,280 --> 01:08:18,020
Nico: Scaling it would require a bit more work.

865
01:08:18,820 --> 01:08:23,260
Nico: I asked Mark for a few funnels and stuff.

866
01:08:23,440 --> 01:08:24,420
Nico: But he... I don't know.

867
01:08:24,540 --> 01:08:27,680
Nico: He doesn't want to focus on that for now, I think.

868
01:08:27,960 --> 01:08:29,960
Nico: So right now, it's just stable.

869
01:08:30,660 --> 01:08:32,940
Daniel: And you can't scale it.

870
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:39,000
Daniel: Is it because you're targeting a small niche and you saturated it?

871
01:08:39,000 --> 01:08:45,060
Daniel: For a delay person who maybe doesn't have a marketing background and so on and so forth.

872
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:46,660
Daniel: Why would it be hard to scale?

873
01:08:46,740 --> 01:08:51,140
Daniel: I think naively, one would think that with ads, if you have something that's working...

874
01:08:51,660 --> 01:08:56,460
Daniel: Just put more money at it and you'll find the infinite money glitch.

875
01:08:56,680 --> 01:08:57,920
Daniel: And you make infinite money.

876
01:08:58,140 --> 01:09:00,020
Daniel: But why is that not the case?

877
01:09:01,040 --> 01:09:02,520
Nico: I wish it was like that.

878
01:09:02,680 --> 01:09:04,320
Nico: But the thing is...

879
01:09:04,320 --> 01:09:06,000
Nico: It gets more...

880
01:09:06,720 --> 01:09:08,140
Nico: What's the exact term for that?

881
01:09:10,320 --> 01:09:10,860
Nico: Inversely...

882
01:09:10,860 --> 01:09:14,380
Nico: The more money you put into it, the less efficient it will become.

883
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:19,700
Nico: Because if you have $30 budget per day or $50...

884
01:09:19,700 --> 01:09:22,940
Nico: Facebook will try to find the best audiences for your budget.

885
01:09:23,400 --> 01:09:27,040
Nico: And that's going to be the best, sort of.

886
01:09:27,560 --> 01:09:30,260
Nico: But as soon as you increase the budget...

887
01:09:30,260 --> 01:09:34,900
Nico: Then you're going to expand to people who are slightly less likely to purchase.

888
01:09:36,400 --> 01:09:39,700
Nico: The result gets worse as you grow the budget.

889
01:09:40,260 --> 01:09:42,080
Nico: But depending on your audience, of course.

890
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:46,540
Nico: If your audience can be 1 billion people, then you might not have the issue.

891
01:09:47,060 --> 01:09:48,920
Nico: But in our case, I think...

892
01:09:49,740 --> 01:09:55,860
Nico: We'll probably have to do a bit more content and lead focused versus direct sales.

893
01:09:56,100 --> 01:09:57,080
Nico: If we were to grow.

894
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:02,900
Nico: I've tried multiple times to increase the budget and stuff.

895
01:10:02,900 --> 01:10:04,920
Nico: And it doesn't really work straight away.

896
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:08,280
Nico: There's also the creative thing.

897
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:11,560
Nico: If you increase your budget, you have to make way more creatives.

898
01:10:11,700 --> 01:10:13,700
Nico: Because eventually they die out.

899
01:10:14,200 --> 01:10:17,820
Nico: Everyone in the audience saw it and they get bored of it.

900
01:10:18,540 --> 01:10:25,220
Nico: There are lots of things together that I think are making it more challenging.

901
01:10:25,460 --> 01:10:31,720
Nesters: Because you're exhausting the audience that actually resonates with the message directly.

902
01:10:31,720 --> 01:10:41,020
Nesters: One avenue to scale is that you focus more on different audiences.

903
01:10:41,480 --> 01:10:44,100
Nesters: And then you focus with the creatives specifically to that audience.

904
01:10:44,300 --> 01:10:46,840
Nesters: So you try to get a little bit of a different market.

905
01:10:49,020 --> 01:10:52,500
Nico: It also comes down to how you position yourself, etc.

906
01:10:54,450 --> 01:11:00,180
Nico: For example, you can just try to run content video to create new pools of audiences.

907
01:11:00,180 --> 01:11:04,900
Nico: Because Facebook then will know who is watching the video you're putting into ads.

908
01:11:05,540 --> 01:11:10,120
Nico: I think this is a great strategy for anyone who can make content about their topic.

909
01:11:10,240 --> 01:11:16,540
Nico: Just put the video into ads and then you get people who are actually interested in watching the video.

910
01:11:17,020 --> 01:11:19,760
Nico: Then you can retarget them with offers and stuff like that.

911
01:11:19,900 --> 01:11:23,180
Nico: But it requires a bit more setup.

912
01:11:23,180 --> 01:11:28,220
Nico: And you need to be actually able to make the content a bit more...

913
01:11:29,500 --> 01:11:32,920
Nico: Not technical, but a bit harder and time consuming.

914
01:11:33,540 --> 01:11:38,500
Daniel: So the ads you then for Codefast and Shipfast were direct sales ads.

915
01:11:38,620 --> 01:11:41,780
Daniel: So if you clicked on them, you were taken to the landing page.

916
01:11:41,860 --> 01:11:43,060
Daniel: There was nothing in between.

917
01:11:44,100 --> 01:11:51,820
Daniel: And you were saying that a potential way to deal with scalability might be to have a step in between.

918
01:11:51,820 --> 01:11:57,300
Daniel: Maybe get them subscribed to say Mark's newsletter or something else.

919
01:11:57,540 --> 01:11:59,680
Daniel: Or what would be some other example?

920
01:11:59,860 --> 01:12:03,200
Daniel: Like targeting them with content, I think, if I understood well.

921
01:12:04,100 --> 01:12:05,240
Daniel: Just out of curiosity.

922
01:12:05,780 --> 01:12:05,840
Nico: Yeah.

923
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:13,580
Nico: So one thing, for example, I wanted to try would be to have Mark's YouTube video.

924
01:12:13,940 --> 01:12:16,060
Nico: Put them into ads, run ads on them.

925
01:12:16,140 --> 01:12:19,220
Nico: And then retarget people who watch more than a certain percentage.

926
01:12:19,220 --> 01:12:23,480
Nico: Because, again, this is people who are likely interested in this kind of content.

927
01:12:23,660 --> 01:12:28,880
Nico: And people interested in this kind of content are probably also interested in learning to code, etc.

928
01:12:29,120 --> 01:12:31,060
Nico: So this is a potential strategy.

929
01:12:31,260 --> 01:12:33,940
Nico: But you can also try, for example, lead magnets.

930
01:12:35,560 --> 01:12:37,740
Nico: Again, it takes way more work.

931
01:12:37,960 --> 01:12:44,100
Nico: But it can also work if you make a free, simplified course on how to learn to code, etc.

932
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:52,120
Nico: Then people who sign up for this course that is free, then at the end you can upsell them.

933
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:57,420
Nico: You can say, hey, if you want a more complete version or whatever, then you can just buy the course here.

934
01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:00,820
Nico: So there are so many options other than direct sales.

935
01:13:00,960 --> 01:13:06,240
Nico: It's just harder from a technical and content point of view.

936
01:13:07,820 --> 01:13:20,620
Daniel: It's also fascinating because I don't think I know anyone else who actually had some success with, say, programming-related info products advertising on Facebook.

937
01:13:20,800 --> 01:13:21,960
Daniel: So I'm curious about the targeting.

938
01:13:22,220 --> 01:13:27,080
Daniel: Because, to be honest, I don't use Facebook regularly.

939
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:30,900
Daniel: Mostly it's people from my parents' generation.

940
01:13:31,120 --> 01:13:31,940
Daniel: That's my impression.

941
01:13:32,140 --> 01:13:33,020
Daniel: And maybe I'm wrong.

942
01:13:33,760 --> 01:13:41,420
Daniel: Who is on Facebook that is responding to... I mean, what is the type of persona who is actually being targeted by these ads?

943
01:13:41,920 --> 01:13:49,680
Daniel: And is actually taking the hook and eventually buying Shipfast or Codefast and so on and so forth.

944
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:53,680
Daniel: I'm trying to imagine the kind of person that you target.

945
01:13:53,840 --> 01:13:58,060
Nico: So, I mean, the thing is, you're not just advertising on Facebook.

946
01:13:58,060 --> 01:14:04,380
Nico: You're advertising on Meta, which means you have Facebook, Instagram, Messenger, all their platforms.

947
01:14:05,560 --> 01:14:15,380
Nico: There are lots of older people on Facebook, but I think a really big audience is on Instagram, especially younger audience.

948
01:14:15,380 --> 01:14:27,500
Nico: So, yeah, you can target as long as there are not people who don't have access to Internet.

949
01:14:28,240 --> 01:14:30,640
Nico: They have like 1 billion users on Meta.

950
01:14:30,860 --> 01:14:34,620
Nico: So the audience is very likely on at least one of the platforms.

951
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:36,460
Nico: Even WhatsApp, you can...

952
01:14:37,040 --> 01:14:39,620
Daniel: Interesting, there's WhatsApp ads as well now?

953
01:14:39,840 --> 01:14:41,000
Daniel: You can put ads in WhatsApp?

954
01:14:42,620 --> 01:14:44,680
Nico: I've never tried, but there are options for that.

955
01:14:44,680 --> 01:14:50,260
Nico: I've never tried because it's more like for Legion stuff, but yeah, there are options.

956
01:14:50,860 --> 01:14:53,640
Daniel: So, just a quick one.

957
01:14:53,720 --> 01:14:59,040
Daniel: So beyond the targeting, was it basically topic-based and interest-based advertising?

958
01:14:59,220 --> 01:15:01,160
Daniel: So basically, so interest-based targeting.

959
01:15:01,740 --> 01:15:07,900
Daniel: So you're basically choosing, hey, people interested in learning how to code or things like that.

960
01:15:08,740 --> 01:15:13,100
Daniel: I'm curious about the selection of the targeting that you would have chosen.

961
01:15:15,140 --> 01:15:24,260
Nico: Actually, we mainly do broad because now Facebook is really smart to figure out the audience, especially if you have like a good amount of data.

962
01:15:24,460 --> 01:15:32,520
Nico: So in the case of Codefast and Shipfast, we just have the pixel running and, you know, Facebook can guess who is the audience.

963
01:15:34,580 --> 01:15:37,800
Nico: For Scribett, for the veterinarians, I started from zero.

964
01:15:37,940 --> 01:15:39,580
Nico: So I had no prior data or anything.

965
01:15:39,580 --> 01:15:43,920
Nico: So I did interest targeting, but I still had broad interest.

966
01:15:44,060 --> 01:15:52,420
Nico: And eventually, like, you know, Facebook figures out based on who, you know, who click on the ad copy or the ad and stuff like that.

967
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:57,840
Nico: So broad targeting is becoming, I think, more and more used.

968
01:15:58,260 --> 01:16:02,080
Daniel: Explain that to us for the lay people, like when you tick broad targeting.

969
01:16:02,340 --> 01:16:07,220
Daniel: Is it just some algorithmic magic that it tries to figure out related things?

970
01:16:07,300 --> 01:16:08,660
Daniel: Or how does it work?

971
01:16:09,260 --> 01:16:10,200
Nico: Yeah, yeah.

972
01:16:10,300 --> 01:16:13,660
Nico: So normally on Facebook, you have a few options to target audiences.

973
01:16:14,440 --> 01:16:16,980
Nico: So you can either target by location.

974
01:16:17,140 --> 01:16:21,000
Nico: So if you want like a specific city or whatever, you can do that.

975
01:16:21,340 --> 01:16:23,620
Nico: You can target by interest.

976
01:16:24,180 --> 01:16:34,380
Nico: So, for example, you know, so Facebook knows a lot about you based on what you like or the website you visit because they have the Facebook pixel tracking.

977
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:36,900
Nico: So they can guess, like, what are you interested in?

978
01:16:37,620 --> 01:16:45,140
Nico: So you can tell Facebook, oh, I want to target people who are interested into, like, I don't know, programming or whatever for your ads.

979
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:48,780
Nico: But broad targeting means you don't define anything.

980
01:16:48,920 --> 01:16:52,000
Nico: You just let Facebook, you know, do their own thing.

981
01:16:52,240 --> 01:16:56,080
Nico: So maybe you, you know, define like age, gender, etc.

982
01:16:56,160 --> 01:17:01,800
Nico: But no interest or really anything restrictive and just let Facebook do its thing.

983
01:17:02,060 --> 01:17:05,960
Nico: So, yeah, you basically let Facebook handle everything for you.

984
01:17:05,960 --> 01:17:16,200
Daniel: And it literally just starts showing it initially to some random people within that, within those constraints and then figures like who's clicking, who's converting and it just adapts.

985
01:17:16,320 --> 01:17:18,500
Daniel: Like, is that to simplify it, how it works?

986
01:17:21,160 --> 01:17:30,740
Nico: Yeah, but so they are also going on your website and, you know, they have like, like actually the first AI stuff were from advertising, like Facebook and everything.

987
01:17:30,840 --> 01:17:35,080
Nico: So they use really advanced AI to, to understand the audiences.

988
01:17:35,080 --> 01:17:37,580
Nico: So they have like bots that go into your website.

989
01:17:37,740 --> 01:17:39,800
Nico: So they understand what your ad is about.

990
01:17:40,300 --> 01:17:47,540
Nico: So they, you know, it's like they kind of know and they behind, like under the hood use their own like interest or whatever.

991
01:17:47,760 --> 01:17:54,320
Nico: So it's just like, yeah, it's not, it's not going to show up to like a totally random people.

992
01:17:54,520 --> 01:18:00,700
Nico: They are going to show it to people who the AI predict will be the most likely interested into your ad.

993
01:18:01,400 --> 01:18:01,980
Daniel: Very, very good.

994
01:18:01,980 --> 01:18:07,400
Daniel: And were you typically paying by impressions or by click or by conversion?

995
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:08,480
Daniel: Like what's the...

996
01:18:08,480 --> 01:18:08,820
Pio: Impressions.

997
01:18:09,020 --> 01:18:09,600
Daniel: By impressions.

998
01:18:09,900 --> 01:18:10,340
Daniel: Yeah, impressions.

999
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:11,400
Daniel: Is there a reason?

1000
01:18:11,520 --> 01:18:23,340
Daniel: Is there a reason there, like whenever I tried ads myself with some mediocre success, I've always, but never tried meta by the way, but I've always was inclined to choose per click for some reason.

1001
01:18:23,480 --> 01:18:27,440
Daniel: I thought it made more sense, but again, I'm maybe ignorant in this space.

1002
01:18:27,700 --> 01:18:29,360
Daniel: Like why per impressions?

1003
01:18:31,000 --> 01:18:35,680
Nico: So on Facebook, I think you can only select cost per click if you aim for traffic.

1004
01:18:35,920 --> 01:18:40,160
Nico: And if you ask for traffic, then you get exactly what you ask for, which is clicks.

1005
01:18:40,760 --> 01:18:44,640
Nico: But if you want conversions, then it's another story.

1006
01:18:44,740 --> 01:18:46,020
Nico: You need to optimize and stuff like that.

1007
01:18:46,140 --> 01:18:52,140
Nico: So you cannot ask for cost per click when you do like optimize for conversion events.

1008
01:18:52,740 --> 01:18:54,640
Nico: So that's the main reason basically.

1009
01:18:54,980 --> 01:18:55,180
Daniel: Interesting.

1010
01:18:55,500 --> 01:18:56,780
Daniel: So that's what you wanted.

1011
01:18:56,780 --> 01:18:59,280
Daniel: I mean, at the end of the day, like your goal is conversion.

1012
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:02,600
Daniel: So you just let the engine optimize for that.

1013
01:19:02,700 --> 01:19:03,380
Daniel: Very interesting.

1014
01:19:03,780 --> 01:19:04,060
Nico: Yeah.

1015
01:19:04,620 --> 01:19:05,340
Daniel: That's great.

1016
01:19:05,500 --> 01:19:13,800
Daniel: I mean, hopefully it inspires a few more people to try this because, you know, I mean, I know a lot of info product creators.

1017
01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:18,660
Daniel: Meta ads rarely come up in the considerations.

1018
01:19:18,940 --> 01:19:20,420
Daniel: So that's fascinating.

1019
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:21,040
Nesters: Yeah.

1020
01:19:21,040 --> 01:19:39,080
Nesters: I think this is where a good point about this whole indie community, solopreneur community, where we discussed earlier also like ads, like anything conversion rate optimization related, including also what you brought up with potentially doing lead madness,

1021
01:19:39,280 --> 01:19:40,540
Nesters: et cetera, which is the funnels.

1022
01:19:40,700 --> 01:19:42,420
Nesters: Funnels is also another conversation.

1023
01:19:42,900 --> 01:19:45,920
Nesters: I think the community generally is not ready to have.

1024
01:19:46,960 --> 01:19:47,140
Nesters: Yeah.

1025
01:19:48,260 --> 01:19:52,900
Nesters: And I want to bring up another point because this might be of interest to you as well.

1026
01:19:53,060 --> 01:20:01,820
Nesters: The last YAP we had Hastan who sells books, sells courses, and he basically has three newsletters.

1027
01:20:02,460 --> 01:20:08,660
Nesters: And with Francesco's help, they were running basically ads to generate subscribers for the newsletter.

1028
01:20:08,940 --> 01:20:12,380
Nesters: So they paid around below the dollar basically per subscriber.

1029
01:20:13,500 --> 01:20:20,920
Nesters: And what happens is that they were basically, I guess the lead magnet there was that they were giving a free book with the ad, I guess.

1030
01:20:21,120 --> 01:20:23,400
Nesters: Basically the ad was for the free book.

1031
01:20:23,500 --> 01:20:26,740
Nesters: I assume to sign up for the newsletter, you get the free book basically.

1032
01:20:28,120 --> 01:20:35,640
Nesters: And the idea there was that you get newsletter subscribers and then you later you can actually sell your courses or more flagship products.

1033
01:20:35,940 --> 01:20:44,880
Nesters: So when they spent like 1,800 approximately in ads, one person from the ads allegedly already bought the $1,500 package.

1034
01:20:44,880 --> 01:20:52,880
Nesters: So basically making back the cost of running ads, but in turn also getting 3,000 newsletter subscribers in process.

1035
01:20:53,060 --> 01:20:53,980
Nesters: I believe 3,800.

1036
01:20:55,040 --> 01:21:03,580
Nesters: And that actually allows you to later use it for other type of sponsorships, marketing, et cetera, through the newsletters.

1037
01:21:03,680 --> 01:21:05,780
Nesters: So you can make that money back in multiple ways.

1038
01:21:05,880 --> 01:21:07,040
Nesters: It could be your own products.

1039
01:21:07,380 --> 01:21:08,680
Nesters: It could be sponsorships.

1040
01:21:09,020 --> 01:21:10,600
Nesters: They're like the CPM based.

1041
01:21:11,020 --> 01:21:14,420
Nesters: So there's a lot of options you can do with that type of...

1042
01:21:14,420 --> 01:21:16,900
Nesters: But that was very successful in a way because...

1043
01:21:16,900 --> 01:21:18,100
Nesters: And you just do the math.

1044
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:26,120
Nesters: But in that sense, I wanted like the funnel in a way is important, like how you structure it, how you think about it to actually make ads work.

1045
01:21:27,340 --> 01:21:27,780
Nico: Yeah.

1046
01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:28,520
Nico: Yeah.

1047
01:21:28,640 --> 01:21:29,660
Nico: I think...

1048
01:21:29,660 --> 01:21:37,440
Nico: I was a bit surprised when you say not many people in every product use ads because when I was in e-commerce and stuff, I saw so many people.

1049
01:21:37,700 --> 01:21:40,320
Nico: And you've got all those gurus, et cetera.

1050
01:21:40,980 --> 01:21:41,640
Daniel: Oh, yeah, yeah.

1051
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:42,120
Daniel: There's a lot.

1052
01:21:42,120 --> 01:21:48,200
Daniel: But I think it's not typically the sort of programming stuff like, you know, like Codefast.

1053
01:21:48,580 --> 01:21:49,620
Daniel: But no, no, absolutely.

1054
01:21:49,780 --> 01:21:53,400
Daniel: Like for like stock trading and sort of these sort of things like that.

1055
01:21:53,480 --> 01:21:59,120
Daniel: I think there's a lot of people who do ads everywhere and including Meta.

1056
01:21:59,180 --> 01:21:59,560
Daniel: No, no.

1057
01:22:00,180 --> 01:22:01,700
Daniel: But like, have you seen yourself?

1058
01:22:01,880 --> 01:22:02,280
Daniel: I'm curious.

1059
01:22:02,400 --> 01:22:06,960
Daniel: Like, have you seen others advertise technical products like Codefast?

1060
01:22:06,960 --> 01:22:07,600
Daniel: I'm curious.

1061
01:22:07,780 --> 01:22:13,980
Daniel: You've seen, like, is it, you think it's common or maybe I'm just mistaken or is it...

1062
01:22:13,980 --> 01:22:14,440
Nico: Yeah.

1063
01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:19,280
Nico: I mean, like Codecademy, man, they're like spending so much on that.

1064
01:22:19,680 --> 01:22:23,680
Nico: I don't know the exact numbers, honestly, but they have so many creatives running.

1065
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:25,780
Nico: They're like spending thousands and thousands.

1066
01:22:25,940 --> 01:22:29,740
Nico: It's just like, it's like, you know, even like Notion.

1067
01:22:30,100 --> 01:22:36,360
Nico: The thing is for generate ads, I started like an ad scraper.

1068
01:22:36,360 --> 01:22:49,560
Nico: So I have like thousands and thousands of ads from like big, like not always like code related, but like tech, at least, who are like spending a lot on ads.

1069
01:22:50,360 --> 01:22:55,520
Nico: And yeah, it's like it works, like not for every single product, obviously.

1070
01:22:55,680 --> 01:22:59,160
Nico: But like, for example, there is like Jenny.ai.

1071
01:22:59,700 --> 01:23:02,000
Nico: They're like spending a lot on ads.

1072
01:23:02,500 --> 01:23:04,340
Nico: They're running, doing really well.

1073
01:23:04,340 --> 01:23:18,300
Nico: Headshot Pro, like, yeah, there are just lots of like, as long as the product is, I think, is not something that you only need in one moment.

1074
01:23:18,400 --> 01:23:27,220
Nico: So for example, I don't know what I was mentioning, for example, a screenshot one by Dimitris, like you need that only at one very specific time.

1075
01:23:27,340 --> 01:23:38,740
Nico: It's going to be really hard to sell that via ads, unless you're promoting maybe like a very specific use case, where like, hey, you can track your competitors or something like that.

1076
01:23:38,800 --> 01:23:42,140
Nico: Then it's a bit more, it's a different positioning.

1077
01:23:42,800 --> 01:23:51,300
Nico: But unless, yeah, otherwise, if, you know, if there is an audience for the product, I think lots of products can actually do well with that.

1078
01:23:51,440 --> 01:23:56,700
Nico: But it just comes down to how good your funnel is, obviously.

1079
01:23:56,700 --> 01:24:03,400
Daniel: So it needs to be a bit of an impulse buy type of product, so that you can buy it and you get it immediately.

1080
01:24:03,560 --> 01:24:14,060
Daniel: It shouldn't be the kind of thing you say, oh, yeah, this is interesting, but, you know, good to know, but maybe I'll consider it later, that kind of thing.

1081
01:24:14,700 --> 01:24:24,900
Nesters: I think it's about, as Nico said about the funnel, even the Hassan's example, he gives a free book to get the newsletter subscriber, but the free book is not the product.

1082
01:24:24,900 --> 01:24:27,300
Nesters: The product is the courses he can sell later.

1083
01:24:27,620 --> 01:24:34,640
Nesters: So that's like a funnel that you're technically getting, sometimes getting a person in with one thing and then you're selling something else.

1084
01:24:35,680 --> 01:24:38,780
Nico: I think they're like two, like really two important things.

1085
01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:46,880
Nico: And this is not just for us, this is for like every marketing you do is like you have the intent and the relationship like for each people.

1086
01:24:47,000 --> 01:24:51,860
Nico: So if you're starting from zero, they don't know you, they don't know what your product does, they don't want it.

1087
01:24:52,320 --> 01:25:03,820
Nico: But now let's say you, yeah, you make like a course, like a free course as a lead magnet or whatever, then the relationship is going to increase, like they know you, they trust you, etc.

1088
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:10,100
Nico: And then maybe they're not interested in your product because they don't really see why they would need it.

1089
01:25:10,120 --> 01:25:13,300
Nico: But then you keep sending them email of, you know, why they should need it.

1090
01:25:13,520 --> 01:25:17,260
Nico: Some like, you know, like, hey, this is what you can do with it, etc.

1091
01:25:17,260 --> 01:25:18,840
Nico: And then you grow the intent.

1092
01:25:19,160 --> 01:25:25,940
Nico: And eventually there is a point where when the intent and the relationship is high enough, then they will buy.

1093
01:25:26,080 --> 01:25:31,900
Nico: So that's the goal of the funnel, basically, is to grow those two things until they're ready to buy.

1094
01:25:33,240 --> 01:25:38,100
Daniel: Which is basically also what happens on social media with organic audiences, right?

1095
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:39,180
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

1096
01:25:39,660 --> 01:25:41,480
Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1097
01:25:41,560 --> 01:25:42,000
Daniel: Makes sense.

1098
01:25:42,080 --> 01:25:42,940
Daniel: Makes sense.

1099
01:25:42,940 --> 01:25:53,180
Nesters: The problem with social media now is that you actually need to get a little bit more viral to reach even your own audience, which I mentioned at some point.

1100
01:25:53,280 --> 01:26:03,000
Nesters: I kind of feel like the value of your follower nowadays on X, for example, feels like it's maybe like one tenth of what it used to be.

1101
01:26:03,000 --> 01:26:13,920
Nesters: Because if you check the impressions based on the random post, the people who check it on the following feed, it seems to be like around 10% nowadays.

1102
01:26:13,920 --> 01:26:18,120
Nesters: So you only reach like the 10% of your actual followers.

1103
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:29,300
Daniel: Yeah, I feel like it's just, sorry, no, I was just going to say, I think it's almost like it's always has been the same, maybe changed a little bit, but it's almost always.

1104
01:26:30,940 --> 01:26:37,940
Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I'm comparing to the pre-for you phase when it was actually retweets showed up on your feed, yeah.

1105
01:26:38,280 --> 01:26:47,140
Daniel: Yeah, I think the fundamental limitation of Twitter is that the lifespan of a post is 24 hours.

1106
01:26:47,760 --> 01:26:59,180
Daniel: I actually think, you know, post Elon, it was extended a little bit, at least for certain tweets, I think sometimes make it a bit longer, but, you know, you see that they pretty much die after about 24 hours.

1107
01:26:59,180 --> 01:27:12,240
Daniel: So basically, you're limited to like, if someone wasn't online on that day, or they didn't happen to be, you know, they weren't chosen to be shown that post, they just miss it, right?

1108
01:27:12,660 --> 01:27:26,140
Daniel: So it's always had that problem, which, by the way, incidentally, probably one of the most successful ad campaigns that I've ever had on X, incidentally, was targeting only my followers.

1109
01:27:26,140 --> 01:27:31,580
Daniel: So I was following the small best communities, back Friday of 2023, I think.

1110
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:38,160
Daniel: And like, the targeting was, I mean, I turned off everything else, literally just only my followers.

1111
01:27:38,440 --> 01:27:47,480
Daniel: Which was funny, because I think it allowed me to get some exposure and sort of, you know, sort of to squeeze the lemon a little bit.

1112
01:27:47,480 --> 01:27:56,480
Daniel: Those people who might not have yet joined or considered joining, whatever, they, you know, became a bit more top of mind and was able to repeat it a bit.

1113
01:27:56,700 --> 01:28:02,000
Daniel: But I think like you said, Nico, like, at some point, it got like, there was some ad fatigue, right?

1114
01:28:02,060 --> 01:28:07,300
Daniel: Eventually, eventually, people are complaining that they just keep seeing the same ad over and over.

1115
01:28:08,140 --> 01:28:13,060
Daniel: And, you know, it was probably, you know, maybe even hurting me at some point.

1116
01:28:13,320 --> 01:28:15,520
Daniel: So and it started becoming profitable eventually.

1117
01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:18,760
Daniel: But yeah, anyway, very, very interesting.

1118
01:28:19,820 --> 01:28:21,640
Daniel: So I know I interrupted someone.

1119
01:28:21,900 --> 01:28:22,920
Daniel: I don't know.

1120
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:27,060
Nesters: But actually, Facebook started making money that way as well.

1121
01:28:27,880 --> 01:28:38,000
Nesters: They forced people to run ads to their own followers, to the group, like the Facebook group, because they couldn't, the reach no longer was on the feed, like it used to be.

1122
01:28:38,280 --> 01:28:41,160
Nesters: So ecommerce, especially was actually hurt quite a lot by that.

1123
01:28:41,160 --> 01:28:44,380
Daniel: The rumor is Facebook did it on purpose, I think.

1124
01:28:44,440 --> 01:28:45,680
Daniel: I don't know how it is.

1125
01:28:46,640 --> 01:28:49,000
Daniel: I doubt Twitter did it on purpose.

1126
01:28:49,120 --> 01:28:53,140
Daniel: I think, again, it's just more just fundamental engagement.

1127
01:28:54,180 --> 01:28:56,320
Daniel: Yeah, it's more for engagement, exactly.

1128
01:28:56,620 --> 01:29:03,460
Daniel: And it's like, basically, if you post something that doesn't just get engagement, it just stops getting rendered.

1129
01:29:03,940 --> 01:29:08,520
Daniel: And, you know, so yeah, like, there's that challenge.

1130
01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:11,240
Daniel: But yeah, pros and cons with everything.

1131
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:16,500
Daniel: Back to you, Nestor.

1132
01:29:16,700 --> 01:29:17,360
Daniel: Sorry, I don't know.

1133
01:29:18,420 --> 01:29:21,420
Nesters: Yeah, I mean, Nico wants to add something.

1134
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:23,680
Nesters: That's fine.

1135
01:29:24,680 --> 01:29:26,980
Nico: No, go ahead.

1136
01:29:27,100 --> 01:29:28,660
Nico: I had something in mind, but I lost it.

1137
01:29:29,260 --> 01:29:31,820
Nesters: Yeah, yeah, I think that was when I was mentioning the Facebook.

1138
01:29:32,040 --> 01:29:34,860
Nesters: Before I was mentioning the Facebook kind of did the same.

1139
01:29:35,040 --> 01:29:36,020
Nesters: We were talking about that.

1140
01:29:37,140 --> 01:29:39,500
Nesters: We were talking about X, I believe.

1141
01:29:41,220 --> 01:29:41,520
Nesters: Yeah.

1142
01:29:42,160 --> 01:29:43,660
Nesters: Okay, we can probably move on.

1143
01:29:43,820 --> 01:29:50,340
Nesters: Just because on the ad subject, I still have a... because we have talked about, and clearly also Daniel wants to know more about ads.

1144
01:29:50,480 --> 01:29:57,120
Nesters: And it's the questions that obviously, like how I feel about in the community, it's actually the most common questions too.

1145
01:29:57,200 --> 01:29:59,580
Nesters: And those are very like, how do you even start?

1146
01:29:59,680 --> 01:30:00,940
Nesters: How does the targeting work?

1147
01:30:00,940 --> 01:30:09,700
Nesters: It's on that basic level where people haven't fully gotten into ads in general, I guess, at all.

1148
01:30:09,920 --> 01:30:16,300
Nesters: So I guess my question would be, when is the person ready to run ads?

1149
01:30:16,300 --> 01:30:28,060
Nesters: Also, both mentally, product-wise, is there a prerequisite, like a budget or MRR you could think of, like a stage of the business?

1150
01:30:28,260 --> 01:30:31,080
Nesters: Also, the person, does it need to be more of an operator?

1151
01:30:31,660 --> 01:30:40,180
Nesters: What do you think is some kind of, not maybe a checklist, but what would it be like for a person to know that they're perhaps ready to actually run ads?

1152
01:30:41,940 --> 01:30:44,360
Nico: Well, I can give my own example.

1153
01:30:44,580 --> 01:30:57,800
Nico: So even though I, you know, I've come from advertising, I didn't start ads until I was at like, like past 1000 MRR for talk notes, because I didn't have, you know, lots of money.

1154
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:01,760
Nico: And I didn't want it to, you know, to spend it.

1155
01:31:01,760 --> 01:31:13,960
Nico: So for me, I would say, once you get comfortable spending a bit of money, then running ads, like it's, it's an option.

1156
01:31:14,020 --> 01:31:22,720
Nico: Because if you're not, like, if you're not, you're going to just keep watching, you know, refreshing the page thing, oh, my money is spending, I'm not getting any results.

1157
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:33,940
Nico: And the thing is, it takes a bit of time and trial, like you need to test different, you know, maybe like creatives, angles, or even audiences, whether you do like broad or interest or stuff like that.

1158
01:31:34,300 --> 01:31:41,680
Nico: So yeah, you need, you're going to need to spend a bit of money initially to figure out what is working best for you.

1159
01:31:42,600 --> 01:31:50,980
Nico: And this is especially true if you have a product that's a bit, you know, broad, and you're not really like, you don't have much validation yet.

1160
01:31:51,640 --> 01:32:03,140
Nico: So like, usually, I would recommend doing it once you are, you know, after the 1000 MRR stage, because it means that there is definitely an audience for it.

1161
01:32:03,720 --> 01:32:05,940
Nico: And also once you have data on your pixel.

1162
01:32:06,700 --> 01:32:08,880
Nico: So the pixel is like the tracking from Facebook.

1163
01:32:09,900 --> 01:32:15,020
Nico: And, you know, it's, it lets Facebook know who go on your website, who purchase, etc, etc.

1164
01:32:15,080 --> 01:32:21,200
Nico: So they already have initial data to start with versus starting like cold without, without anything.

1165
01:32:22,700 --> 01:32:24,320
Nico: And then, of course, you need to have...

1166
01:32:26,140 --> 01:32:28,240
Nesters: That's another thing that I've noticed in the community.

1167
01:32:29,060 --> 01:32:32,220
Nesters: A lot of people avoid any pixels at all.

1168
01:32:32,360 --> 01:32:33,500
Nesters: And I understand the reasons.

1169
01:32:33,680 --> 01:32:36,840
Nesters: And even the analytics are very privacy focused.

1170
01:32:37,260 --> 01:32:47,100
Nesters: So like, I am just, if you are planning at any point to run ads, like you kind of need to like warm up that pixel and actually have it on your site like earlier.

1171
01:32:47,400 --> 01:32:50,360
Nesters: So that's one thing that's usually missing.

1172
01:32:51,240 --> 01:32:51,640
Nico: Yeah.

1173
01:32:51,900 --> 01:32:59,800
Nico: And for like, for analytics, you also need to have something like, you know, not necessarily privacy focused, because you lose lots of data.

1174
01:33:00,100 --> 01:33:03,740
Nico: So, you know, like, well, Mark has made data files.

1175
01:33:03,860 --> 01:33:05,100
Nico: So that's a good example for that.

1176
01:33:05,640 --> 01:33:15,840
Nico: But yeah, you want to be able to, you know, not just rely on what Facebook tells you, but also have on your own backend to actually track where are your users, you know, coming from, etc.

1177
01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:22,360
Nico: Like to basically to be able to understand their behavior and stuff, and just double check with Facebook.

1178
01:33:23,400 --> 01:33:33,340
Nico: But yeah, you in any case, you're going to need to add the Facebook pixel and some tracking to be able to actually get something done with ads.

1179
01:33:34,180 --> 01:33:36,940
Nico: So yeah, that's required.

1180
01:33:37,100 --> 01:33:39,720
Nico: You cannot, you cannot like, escape that.

1181
01:33:45,020 --> 01:33:54,940
Nesters: Okay, so I guess you would say 1000 MMR is the safest, like start for the people who have validated their products a little bit.

1182
01:33:55,260 --> 01:33:58,660
Nesters: I guess it depends on the price of the product too, as well.

1183
01:33:58,860 --> 01:33:59,100
Nesters: But yeah.

1184
01:33:59,100 --> 01:34:01,620
Nico: Yeah, so that was my next point.

1185
01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:04,560
Nico: You need to have like, actual profit.

1186
01:34:04,900 --> 01:34:16,060
Nico: So if you know, if you cannot like, especially for higher products, like price points, or for example, for Scribe, it was a veterinary app, the subscription was $50 per month.

1187
01:34:16,500 --> 01:34:24,000
Nico: It's really, really hard to sell a subscription for $50 per month upfront to like an ad.

1188
01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:29,620
Nico: So I was, I was not aiming for subscribe directly, I was aiming for signups.

1189
01:34:29,720 --> 01:34:33,540
Nico: And then I would, you know, have the ads running, you know, to retarget them.

1190
01:34:33,580 --> 01:34:36,380
Nico: And then I have the marketing funnel, the email sequences, etc.

1191
01:34:37,420 --> 01:34:46,960
Nico: But overall, like, it costed me, I would say between 200 and 400 to get one customer, like paying customer.

1192
01:34:46,960 --> 01:34:50,080
Nico: So I was sort of losing money upfront.

1193
01:34:50,340 --> 01:34:54,520
Nico: But then I, I know I was making the money back after like, five months or something.

1194
01:34:55,020 --> 01:34:59,920
Nico: So that's something you also need to consider is, can you actually manage your cash flow?

1195
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:10,920
Nico: Because if you have a subscription, then, or if you have like a high lifetime value, or people keep buying over time, then you probably won't make the money back upfront.

1196
01:35:10,920 --> 01:35:15,140
Nico: So you're going to lose some money initially, and then make it back.

1197
01:35:15,240 --> 01:35:24,280
Nico: And that's why I think lots of startups go VC, because then they can just throw money on ads, and they know that eventually they will make the money back, hopefully.

1198
01:35:25,280 --> 01:35:29,600
Nico: You can kind of mitigate this with yearly subscription.

1199
01:35:29,820 --> 01:35:39,600
Nico: So for TalkNotes, I had like, the base version was like $12 per month, and the yearly was like, at the end, it was like $6 or $7 per month.

1200
01:35:40,140 --> 01:35:45,580
Nico: But because people were paying everything upfront, then it would cover the cost of ads.

1201
01:35:45,940 --> 01:35:49,560
Nico: So it would cost me maybe $40 to get a subscription.

1202
01:35:49,560 --> 01:35:56,160
Nico: But since some of them bought the yearly plan, then I basically was getting new customers for free.

1203
01:35:56,700 --> 01:36:00,600
Nico: And then I was making the, you know, I was getting more and more MRR.

1204
01:36:00,780 --> 01:36:02,920
Nico: So that's something you need to consider.

1205
01:36:03,020 --> 01:36:13,760
Nico: Like, you need to know your funnel, you need to know how much profit you make out of your users, and how long, like after how many months, you're going to make the money back.

1206
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:15,820
Nico: I think that's really important thing to consider.

1207
01:36:15,820 --> 01:36:30,660
Nesters: Yeah, I think that's one of the most important things I've also noticed that people don't think about is that when they think about the ads, they don't actually think about... Am I sounding too quiet right now?

1208
01:36:32,160 --> 01:36:33,240
Nico: Nope, fine on my end.

1209
01:36:33,240 --> 01:36:35,680
Nesters: No, I just sounded on my mixer for some reason.

1210
01:36:35,780 --> 01:36:37,880
Nesters: For a while, it seemed like I was way too quiet.

1211
01:36:38,240 --> 01:36:39,280
Nesters: I have no idea why.

1212
01:36:39,760 --> 01:36:47,020
Nesters: Okay, so the most important, one of the most important points is also that understanding.

1213
01:36:47,220 --> 01:37:06,470
Nesters: Yeah, that with ads, especially if you're selling a subscription product, like your monthly subscript, like, I've noticed a lot of people be like, how will I make money with ads, if my subscription is like $29, but I might be spending $30, you know, a month.

1214
01:37:06,970 --> 01:37:13,470
Nesters: Not months, but acquisition, you know, because they're like, but your lifetime value from the customer is obviously not $30.

1215
01:37:13,950 --> 01:37:27,410
Nesters: It should be more than one month subscriptions, or at least like three, five months, hopefully, you know, or maybe it's a much longer subscription, if it's a really good product, and they don't just need it like seasonally or periodically, for example.

1216
01:37:27,410 --> 01:37:32,710
Nesters: So you obviously should be making that money back with a subscription product.

1217
01:37:32,850 --> 01:37:52,530
Nesters: And as you mentioned, the annual offer, it's very, very nice that you can sell annual because also not just because the ad cost might be like recouped directly and with profit, but it's also that if you sell annual, you get that cash in the bank upfront that you can use to feed into ads as well.

1218
01:37:52,530 --> 01:37:58,710
Nesters: So at least that cash flow issue is a little bit better managed if you have some annual sales.

1219
01:37:59,470 --> 01:38:01,210
Nico: Yeah, yeah.

1220
01:38:01,350 --> 01:38:17,770
Nico: So I think, and you also have other options like for generated ads, for example, one of the reason I wanted to switch it to like a lifetime deal instead of having like credits is because with credits, I think I was first I was on making much profit on them.

1221
01:38:18,750 --> 01:38:22,590
Nico: And people, you know, the lifetime value would be pretty low.

1222
01:38:22,970 --> 01:38:28,350
Nico: But with a lifetime deal, then now the lifetime value goes from something like $30 to $200.

1223
01:38:28,710 --> 01:38:32,650
Nico: So it's like there is much more room to reinvest in ads.

1224
01:38:32,910 --> 01:38:39,490
Nico: So, you know, sometimes it's good to maybe think outside of the box, of the box too, to see how much...

1225
01:38:39,490 --> 01:38:41,310
Nesters: Are you doing the subscription plus credits?

1226
01:38:41,970 --> 01:38:43,330
Nesters: How does it work right now?

1227
01:38:44,630 --> 01:38:47,630
Nico: Right now, I actually removed everything other than the lifetime deal.

1228
01:38:47,950 --> 01:38:49,670
Nico: So you buy like a lifetime license.

1229
01:38:50,110 --> 01:38:51,430
Nico: I will try other things later.

1230
01:38:51,530 --> 01:38:56,870
Nico: But for now, I'm satisfied with the value per visitor and etc.

1231
01:38:56,870 --> 01:39:01,290
Nico: So for now, I'm keeping the lifetime deal.

1232
01:39:01,370 --> 01:39:05,550
Nico: And I think later, I will switch to maybe a subscription or just increase the price or something.

1233
01:39:05,850 --> 01:39:06,990
Nico: But yeah.

1234
01:39:08,830 --> 01:39:10,650
Nesters: Yeah, the lifetime deals.

1235
01:39:11,130 --> 01:39:18,530
Nesters: I mean, Daniel has been actually a huge proponent of using lifetime deals, unlimited lifetime deals.

1236
01:39:18,910 --> 01:39:24,590
Nesters: And I'm also interested because with ads, sometimes it's actually not as easy, you know, to convert directly to lifetime.

1237
01:39:26,530 --> 01:39:33,270
Nico: I think, I mean, so it's a bit different, but I know like AppSumo is running a lot of ads.

1238
01:39:33,550 --> 01:39:39,730
Nico: And one of their angle is just, you know, like they always use the same template for their ads.

1239
01:39:39,850 --> 01:39:42,310
Nico: It's like you have on the left competitor.

1240
01:39:42,530 --> 01:39:46,930
Nico: So for example, like Calendly, which is, you know, yearly, like 200 or whatever.

1241
01:39:46,930 --> 01:39:55,650
Nico: And then they have on the right side is like, whatever their app is, is the calendar app that is one time like lifetime deal.

1242
01:39:55,690 --> 01:39:58,450
Nico: And it's like, you know, $90 or something.

1243
01:39:58,970 --> 01:40:07,070
Nico: So I think it can work great, especially if it's like limited time, because then you get like fear of missing out.

1244
01:40:07,070 --> 01:40:18,570
Nico: So people are like, oh, wow, you know, that's not like they see the ad and they might be more interested in buying right now versus keeping it for later with a subscription or whatever.

1245
01:40:18,710 --> 01:40:21,110
Nico: So I think that can work.

1246
01:40:21,810 --> 01:40:24,650
Nico: But I'm just experimenting right now.

1247
01:40:24,730 --> 01:40:27,650
Nico: So I don't have like data to back this up.

1248
01:40:29,910 --> 01:40:30,610
Nesters: Fair enough.

1249
01:40:31,350 --> 01:40:32,790
Nesters: Yeah, this is actually interesting.

1250
01:40:32,910 --> 01:40:38,330
Nesters: This app, unlike the other ones, the listeners over time are actually going up, not down.

1251
01:40:38,450 --> 01:40:41,590
Nesters: And usually it's starts high and then it's just slowly going down.

1252
01:40:42,330 --> 01:40:43,710
Nesters: People are actually interested in you.

1253
01:40:43,750 --> 01:40:45,990
Nesters: And I guess some Europeans maybe are also waking up.

1254
01:40:46,450 --> 01:40:47,510
Nesters: Maybe in Asia as well.

1255
01:40:48,350 --> 01:40:49,690
Nesters: Lunchtime maybe is easier.

1256
01:40:50,390 --> 01:40:51,830
Nesters: Lunchtime, it's easier to join.

1257
01:40:52,310 --> 01:40:58,530
Nesters: Speaking of lunch and launching, I guess I want to also talk a little bit about product hunt.

1258
01:40:58,530 --> 01:41:17,930
Nesters: Because that was part of your initial success, how you found a way to basically get your own audience and also funnel some additional revenue for yourself to continue the operations, etc.

1259
01:41:17,930 --> 01:41:20,730
Nesters: And I guess run ads as well.

1260
01:41:20,830 --> 01:41:25,050
Nesters: I guess you use product hunt in a way to get money for running ads later.

1261
01:41:26,010 --> 01:41:31,030
Nesters: Basically, because you got the initial boost in visitors.

1262
01:41:31,790 --> 01:41:37,530
Nesters: I know that you had criticism of product hunt because it's not the same as it used to be.

1263
01:41:38,110 --> 01:41:41,350
Nesters: And there's also Dago who's launching a product hunt clone.

1264
01:41:41,350 --> 01:41:44,970
Nesters: So how do you feel about product hunt clones?

1265
01:41:45,810 --> 01:41:49,210
Nesters: Do you feel like they have space right now for success?

1266
01:41:49,490 --> 01:41:51,190
Nesters: Or is the space changing?

1267
01:41:51,650 --> 01:41:53,570
Nesters: Is there something that needs to be different?

1268
01:41:57,070 --> 01:41:58,730
Nico: Well, that's hard to say.

1269
01:41:58,890 --> 01:42:04,630
Nico: I mean, obviously, yeah, I think everyone knows that product hunt changed a lot.

1270
01:42:05,710 --> 01:42:08,050
Nico: Like before, I think you could just go there, launch them.

1271
01:42:08,510 --> 01:42:12,610
Nico: The traffic was mainly coming, I would say, from within product hunt.

1272
01:42:13,910 --> 01:42:17,170
Nico: And again, I don't have data to back this up.

1273
01:42:17,210 --> 01:42:21,110
Nico: This is just my personal feeling slash observation.

1274
01:42:21,110 --> 01:42:24,470
Nico: But I feel now it's more about audience game.

1275
01:42:24,850 --> 01:42:31,990
Nico: All the big companies, they have all the users and they just bring them in.

1276
01:42:33,030 --> 01:42:36,030
Nico: Audience matters way more than before, I think.

1277
01:42:37,750 --> 01:42:48,450
Nico: But then you, I don't know, there are some examples of like, people launching and almost like nothing with barely any audience and they still managed to, you know, get in the top like five.

1278
01:42:48,730 --> 01:42:51,450
Nico: So it also just depends on the product.

1279
01:42:51,610 --> 01:42:57,750
Nico: But back then, for example, with generate ads, I had like less than 500 people on Twitter.

1280
01:42:57,850 --> 01:43:05,610
Nico: So I didn't have an audience and I still managed to end up product of the day because I think yeah, I was the first one to make an AI logo app.

1281
01:43:05,610 --> 01:43:16,530
Nico: So I don't know how, if that would be possible again today, because of those reasons that, you know, everyone bring their own audience already.

1282
01:43:16,650 --> 01:43:22,210
Nico: Like they have 1000 customers, like even like Anthropic, like they're launching cloud every week.

1283
01:43:22,350 --> 01:43:25,590
Nico: So like, you cannot really compete with that, I think.

1284
01:43:26,330 --> 01:43:30,290
Nico: So yeah, it's much, much harder now, I feel.

1285
01:43:30,290 --> 01:43:42,470
Nesters: By the way, yes, on that point, we actually had someone who is now at like 20,000 GitHub stars with an open source social media post scheduler.

1286
01:43:42,650 --> 01:43:44,930
Nesters: Yeah, there's a lot of schedulers right now in the space.

1287
01:43:46,070 --> 01:43:49,830
Nesters: He has an open source one with 20,000, I believe, GitHub stars.

1288
01:43:50,030 --> 01:43:55,530
Nesters: And he was actually talking about it as well, how he got the first of day, week and month.

1289
01:43:55,710 --> 01:43:59,790
Nesters: And he was using a lot of strategies that are in a very gray area.

1290
01:43:59,930 --> 01:44:04,050
Nesters: He's also like at 5000 followers now on X, but he had less.

1291
01:44:04,050 --> 01:44:12,870
Nesters: So he's been used all kinds of things of going to discord communities, etc, just to advertise his product and slack groups.

1292
01:44:13,330 --> 01:44:22,550
Nesters: So he was basically those product hunt launches are definitely much harder, especially even if you don't bring your audience, but you use like the some of the strategies he used.

1293
01:44:23,230 --> 01:44:33,510
Nesters: He would basically in a way spam a lot of people as well on all kinds of places like obviously organically, you would have a really hard time I think competing with that now.

1294
01:44:35,110 --> 01:44:46,010
Nico: Yeah, I mean, well, I think when I launched talk notes, I so I launched and then I saw it was not, you know, getting lots of votes or not as many as I wanted.

1295
01:44:46,130 --> 01:44:49,690
Nico: So then yeah, I started like DMing people and stuff like that.

1296
01:44:50,450 --> 01:44:52,150
Nico: But yeah, I don't know.

1297
01:44:52,210 --> 01:44:56,850
Nico: And I feel and again, this is I don't have any data to back this up.

1298
01:44:56,870 --> 01:45:03,050
Nico: But I feel there were like way more bots compared to before because like I launched generate ads recently.

1299
01:45:03,050 --> 01:45:06,850
Nico: And like, I would say half of the comments I got were charge EPT generated.

1300
01:45:07,230 --> 01:45:13,670
Nico: So like, and really, like, you know, dumb comments, like, and the profiles didn't have much stuff on them.

1301
01:45:13,750 --> 01:45:16,650
Nico: So I think there are lots of bots going, going on there.

1302
01:45:16,710 --> 01:45:17,970
Nico: And that also doesn't help.

1303
01:45:18,830 --> 01:45:21,710
Nico: But I don't know how they can fix that.

1304
01:45:21,790 --> 01:45:33,350
Nico: But I feel there's lots of services that you know, you pay and you get product of the day that even if they ban most of them, I think there are still some that go through the net.

1305
01:45:33,610 --> 01:45:36,830
Nico: So, but again, I don't have data to back this up.

1306
01:45:36,990 --> 01:45:37,490
Nico: So I don't know.

1307
01:45:39,210 --> 01:45:44,890
Nesters: Okay, and then we go to the, let's say Dagos launch day, right?

1308
01:45:45,430 --> 01:45:48,950
Nesters: I assume he does smaller batches couple times a month.

1309
01:45:49,070 --> 01:45:50,150
Nesters: I think that's his idea.

1310
01:45:50,830 --> 01:45:56,070
Nesters: And products I believe featured each one gets I guess the 20 minute interview or something like that.

1311
01:45:56,270 --> 01:46:00,870
Nesters: 10 minute interview and 10 minutes about the product introduction or something, I believe.

1312
01:46:01,270 --> 01:46:06,450
Nesters: And then he will have seems to be a chat that you can actually also like chat about the product.

1313
01:46:06,450 --> 01:46:09,710
Nesters: Do you feel like there is actually that space for alternatives?

1314
01:46:10,130 --> 01:46:17,270
Nesters: Or will it also be overrun by bots and like really low quality engagement?

1315
01:46:17,270 --> 01:46:17,850
Nico: Yeah.

1316
01:46:18,750 --> 01:46:20,370
Nico: Um, yeah.

1317
01:46:20,570 --> 01:46:26,470
Nico: So I think they're like, there are two, two things when you when you launch on a platform like Productcentre.

1318
01:46:26,570 --> 01:46:28,250
Nico: So first, you get traffic.

1319
01:46:28,830 --> 01:46:32,570
Nico: And you also get social proof, if at least you manage to rank.

1320
01:46:33,250 --> 01:46:38,030
Nico: So I think those like smaller platforms are great for social proof.

1321
01:46:38,290 --> 01:46:40,030
Nico: And you know, you get like a backlink.

1322
01:46:40,810 --> 01:46:42,130
Nico: I don't know much about SEO.

1323
01:46:42,230 --> 01:46:44,790
Nico: So I don't know how it's, how much it's actually worth.

1324
01:46:44,890 --> 01:46:47,250
Nico: But at least you get, you know, those badges.

1325
01:46:47,270 --> 01:46:49,250
Nico: You can display on the website.

1326
01:46:50,290 --> 01:46:54,810
Nico: And I actually, I did an eBay test with Productcentre badge.

1327
01:46:55,510 --> 01:46:57,090
Nico: And it did increase conversion rate.

1328
01:46:57,930 --> 01:47:03,310
Nico: So this is something to, you know, you have to consider if you can get one of those badges.

1329
01:47:03,410 --> 01:47:07,450
Nico: I haven't tested versus other badges, or if it's just Productcentre badges.

1330
01:47:07,570 --> 01:47:16,110
Nico: But I'm pretty sure even if it was like some totally random thing that doesn't actually exist, it would still improve conversion rate because it's, you know, it's social proof.

1331
01:47:16,110 --> 01:47:17,890
Nico: And you know, people trust social proof.

1332
01:47:18,070 --> 01:47:22,010
Nico: So I, there is first this thing, social proof.

1333
01:47:22,230 --> 01:47:24,810
Nico: Now for that, any platform can do it.

1334
01:47:25,050 --> 01:47:28,390
Nico: But one of the main interest of Productcentre is the traffic you get at launch.

1335
01:47:28,650 --> 01:47:31,390
Nico: So that's much harder to replicate.

1336
01:47:31,690 --> 01:47:34,890
Nico: And honestly, on all those other platforms, it's not there.

1337
01:47:35,770 --> 01:47:45,330
Nico: Like, I think the best one is like Unid, but it's not nearly, like you cannot even compare to the kind of traffic you get from Productcentre.

1338
01:47:45,330 --> 01:47:48,890
Nico: And so I think it only works.

1339
01:47:49,750 --> 01:47:58,210
Nico: Like, if you like, if it's only purely social proof, then there are already 1000 of directories that can do it.

1340
01:47:58,250 --> 01:48:16,250
Nico: But I think what's smart for Dago, and I don't know, that's something I suggested him, I don't know that if he planned to do it anyway, but the fact that he planned to have some kind of like deals, like launch deal, then people would be interested to go on the website daily,

1341
01:48:16,370 --> 01:48:19,190
Nico: like, oh, maybe I can get a nice deal for an app.

1342
01:48:19,310 --> 01:48:20,310
Nico: So you know, it's like AppSumo.

1343
01:48:21,390 --> 01:48:24,050
Nico: And that's how AppSumo get traffic, because you get great deals.

1344
01:48:24,330 --> 01:48:27,190
Nico: So if you don't check every day, you might be missing out something.

1345
01:48:27,650 --> 01:48:40,930
Nico: And I think that would be the smartest angle to approach this is to have, you know, that like, so when you launch, if you if you check every day, or every week, or whatever, then you maybe you find a great app at a discounted price.

1346
01:48:41,090 --> 01:48:47,750
Nico: And like the, you know, it's like a win win, you get discounted price, the maker gets customers.

1347
01:48:48,130 --> 01:48:49,290
Nico: So I think that makes sense.

1348
01:48:49,510 --> 01:48:51,050
Nico: But if it's just launch...

1349
01:48:52,110 --> 01:48:53,430
Nesters: No, you're correct.

1350
01:48:53,550 --> 01:48:55,070
Nesters: I actually forgot to mention that.

1351
01:48:55,170 --> 01:48:56,730
Nesters: But I saw his tweet before.

1352
01:48:56,970 --> 01:49:14,530
Nesters: And he's actually going with that angle, I believe he will, if you do the if you like share the and like the product, etc, basically engage positively with the product there, or with the products on the launch day, I believe you will be getting access to the deals,

1353
01:49:14,590 --> 01:49:14,970
Nesters: basically.

1354
01:49:16,130 --> 01:49:16,650
Nico: Yeah, yeah.

1355
01:49:16,750 --> 01:49:19,210
Nico: So I think that's a really smart way to approach things.

1356
01:49:20,830 --> 01:49:23,850
Nico: Now, we have to see like, how is it going to work?

1357
01:49:24,110 --> 01:49:30,970
Nico: But I think if, if he plays his card well, then he won't be in the same market as Productant.

1358
01:49:31,650 --> 01:49:37,270
Nico: So even if, you know, you don't get upvotes and stuff like that, then you still get traffic.

1359
01:49:37,390 --> 01:49:38,430
Nico: And I think that can be interesting.

1360
01:49:38,750 --> 01:49:44,710
Nesters: So and I think what plays in his favor is also that he does have an actual audience himself.

1361
01:49:45,330 --> 01:49:52,590
Nesters: Like, yeah, now, if he continues tweeting 50 times a day, it would dilute any of the launch day related value.

1362
01:49:53,130 --> 01:49:56,470
Nesters: But he has an opportunity to actually, because he's good at yapping.

1363
01:49:56,770 --> 01:50:03,030
Nesters: So he has the potential to utilize that for a really good pause here with launch day.

1364
01:50:03,590 --> 01:50:11,010
Nesters: But depending, if he continues doing this blitz posting 50 times a day, I think it dilutes too much of that, any value, like, you know.

1365
01:50:11,630 --> 01:50:11,630
Yeah.

1366
01:50:11,690 --> 01:50:13,690
Daniel: And he's still not selling enough money, right?

1367
01:50:13,750 --> 01:50:18,930
Daniel: Because he's, he sold his car, I think he's selling, he sold his parking spot.

1368
01:50:19,030 --> 01:50:20,810
Daniel: I mean, I don't know what he's going to sell next.

1369
01:50:21,210 --> 01:50:23,170
Yeah, hopefully he doesn't sell his wife as well.

1370
01:50:26,950 --> 01:50:28,710
Daniel: The kids in the next maybe, right?

1371
01:50:31,370 --> 01:50:34,890
Nico: No, but I mean, yeah, I really hope that it works well for him.

1372
01:50:34,990 --> 01:50:46,830
Nico: But yeah, I think there is like a space for that, because AppSumo takes a huge commission, like they give you like 30% of your sales, which is ridiculous, in my opinion.

1373
01:50:48,710 --> 01:50:59,470
Nico: So yeah, I think if he managed to position it well, I think there might be some potential for because there is no real existing solution for that at the moment, as far as I know.

1374
01:50:59,510 --> 01:51:06,690
Nesters: So with AppSumo, first of all, you're running a deal, which often is really good for the customer, and you only get 30%?

1375
01:51:07,870 --> 01:51:11,050
Nico: Yeah, so you have to get a deal and you get 30%.

1376
01:51:11,050 --> 01:51:17,370
Nico: Like they have a specific offer, like way to do the things, but I got on a call with them.

1377
01:51:17,450 --> 01:51:25,250
Nico: And that's what they were saying, like, first you have to lower to make like a really good deal, lower your price, and you only get 30% of it.

1378
01:51:25,430 --> 01:51:28,110
Nico: So it's, it's really not that great for the...

1379
01:51:28,110 --> 01:51:35,510
Nesters: I guess it works a little bit like Udemy with courses, you're technically building an audience and a subscriber base.

1380
01:51:35,650 --> 01:51:38,330
Nesters: So you have a potential to upsell something in the future.

1381
01:51:38,330 --> 01:51:49,350
Nesters: And you get additional basically word of mouth, if your product is good, it's actually good for the word of mouth marketing, because people are like, oh, yeah, I tried this, I got to know AppSumo, and it's like, it's amazing product.

1382
01:51:49,510 --> 01:51:53,890
Nesters: So obviously, there is that Amazon type of distribution advantage.

1383
01:51:54,290 --> 01:52:04,630
Nico: Yeah, but it's still like, it's still 30% is like, to do like the support and the the cost of users like it's, it's, it's a lot.

1384
01:52:05,130 --> 01:52:07,290
Nico: Well, a lot to be a lot of two.

1385
01:52:07,810 --> 01:52:11,530
Nesters: Yeah, depending on the type of business, it sounds like it's, it's horrible.

1386
01:52:11,630 --> 01:52:16,730
Nesters: It's getting into that eCommerce territory where you're literally keeping 30% or less.

1387
01:52:19,950 --> 01:52:21,010
Nico: Yeah, so I don't know.

1388
01:52:21,190 --> 01:52:25,190
Nico: It's, but yeah, I think, I don't know how his thing is going to evolve.

1389
01:52:25,310 --> 01:52:29,170
Nico: Maybe he will require like, paying a percentage later or something.

1390
01:52:29,270 --> 01:52:37,590
Nico: But yeah, I still think that it's not like a terrible idea if he plays his cards well, and stop talking about...

1391
01:52:37,950 --> 01:52:41,210
Nesters: At least he has paying customers, like we need to give him credit.

1392
01:52:41,410 --> 01:52:44,170
Nesters: He actually got 60 signups last year.

1393
01:52:44,410 --> 01:52:44,410
Yeah.

1394
01:52:44,670 --> 01:52:49,390
Nesters: Some have dropped off, but nine of the initial launch ones are actually there.

1395
01:52:49,490 --> 01:52:50,930
Nesters: I guess he got another one.

1396
01:52:51,410 --> 01:52:54,250
Nesters: I don't know which one he picked, but I guess he will have the 10s.

1397
01:52:54,870 --> 01:52:56,890
Nesters: So he actually has validated them.

1398
01:52:57,750 --> 01:53:01,530
Nesters: And the market was already pre-validated, but he also has validated his own product.

1399
01:53:03,050 --> 01:53:05,830
Nico: Yeah, no, I think we'll see how it goes.

1400
01:53:05,910 --> 01:53:08,190
Nico: I'm really curious to see how that's going to end.

1401
01:53:09,330 --> 01:53:25,970
Nesters: Yeah, but his character, he's breaking his character after he actually ships it though, because he can't no longer be the... I mean, I guess you can still struggle and not get sales after the first launch or something, and you can still be the failed entrepreneur.

1402
01:53:27,190 --> 01:53:29,230
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

1403
01:53:30,350 --> 01:53:34,610
Nesters: That would be horrible for his runway.

1404
01:53:36,290 --> 01:53:36,510
Nico: Yeah.

1405
01:53:37,670 --> 01:53:37,990
Nesters: Yeah.

1406
01:53:38,110 --> 01:53:47,950
Nesters: So, I guess, I mean, regarding this and other things, I forgot to ask about the spicy ad platforms, you know, the porn sites.

1407
01:53:48,810 --> 01:53:57,610
Nesters: The main question for me already directly is, was that marketing stunt for social media engagement?

1408
01:53:58,410 --> 01:54:02,890
Nesters: Or was that an actual real thing you want to run?

1409
01:54:03,990 --> 01:54:13,630
Nico: So, I would say it's a bit of both because I got the idea and I sent a message to Mark and I was like, fuck man, that can be a fun thing to try.

1410
01:54:13,990 --> 01:54:20,290
Nico: But obviously, we knew that would also, you know, people would, we would also post it on Twitter.

1411
01:54:20,830 --> 01:54:29,030
Nico: But the thing is, we didn't, yeah, like we were not able to actually run it because they asked so many questions.

1412
01:54:29,030 --> 01:54:31,150
Nico: Like, it's, you know, know your customer thing.

1413
01:54:31,250 --> 01:54:32,510
Nico: And it's an absolute nightmare.

1414
01:54:32,650 --> 01:54:33,990
Nico: You cannot pay with cards.

1415
01:54:34,090 --> 01:54:35,770
Nico: So, you have to like open bank accounts.

1416
01:54:35,990 --> 01:54:43,930
Nico: Like, I think Mark, he tried to do the thing, but it was just like too much work for the potential return.

1417
01:54:44,110 --> 01:54:51,970
Nico: Like, to make it worth it, I would have to, you know, really go into it and make way more creatives and just try more things.

1418
01:54:52,630 --> 01:54:56,990
Nico: So, we were not really able to launch directly on the platform.

1419
01:54:57,250 --> 01:54:59,950
Nico: But I think, yeah, it went viral on Twitter.

1420
01:55:00,110 --> 01:55:02,030
Nico: So, I think at the end, it was still worth it.

1421
01:55:03,310 --> 01:55:06,170
Nico: Like, it was not planned that, you know, it would go viral.

1422
01:55:06,210 --> 01:55:13,570
Nico: But obviously, we knew that, like, if we make like a funny ad and we post it on Twitter, then people will enjoy it.

1423
01:55:13,770 --> 01:55:21,350
Nico: So, there was some of that, but it's not like the original goal was just to try and see how it goes.

1424
01:55:21,410 --> 01:55:22,630
Nico: It was like an experiment, basically.

1425
01:55:26,510 --> 01:55:32,090
Nesters: Do you, is that something you think advertising will be going?

1426
01:55:32,250 --> 01:55:40,270
Nesters: Or is that something you think people should sometimes try is the advertising and also like less, maybe less saturated, controversial place?

1427
01:55:40,430 --> 01:55:44,530
Nesters: Because as an indie hacker, like, obviously, you have your own reputation, etc.

1428
01:55:44,610 --> 01:55:52,090
Nesters: But as a solo person, you often can afford a little bit more room of doing different things differently.

1429
01:55:52,290 --> 01:56:02,450
Nesters: You don't have the, you don't have like some kind of suppliers, you don't have like sponsors and other like companies, maybe unnecessarily involved with you.

1430
01:56:02,450 --> 01:56:12,590
Nesters: I mean, obviously, some, some of the products definitely have clients that perhaps are companies or B2B, or they might actually not want to associate with someone who does that.

1431
01:56:12,670 --> 01:56:18,250
Nesters: But do you think there's like a space where people can explore that and it makes sense for them?

1432
01:56:19,890 --> 01:56:34,890
Nico: So, the thing is, it's really like low intent platform, I think, in the sense that obviously, when people go on porn website, they're not going to be wanting to look at content or ads, they just want to, you know, get off and move on.

1433
01:56:35,350 --> 01:56:44,830
Nico: So, I think it can work if you do a bit more like brand, like brand awareness, in a sort.

1434
01:56:45,090 --> 01:56:48,450
Nico: So instead, like, I don't think you're going to get sales directly.

1435
01:56:48,570 --> 01:56:59,770
Nico: But if you have like, a message that's really like remarkable, and I think the, you know, the, like, stop fapping, start coding, I think that was something funny, and people might remember it.

1436
01:56:59,930 --> 01:57:02,390
Nico: And so, it's in their mind.

1437
01:57:02,530 --> 01:57:09,470
Nico: And then maybe eventually, they're like, oh, they saw, you know, I don't know, a YouTube video about a guy who learned to code, and they're like, Oh, yeah, I remember this thing.

1438
01:57:09,630 --> 01:57:11,270
Nico: So maybe now I'm going to go on the website.

1439
01:57:11,490 --> 01:57:26,410
Nico: So I think it's more for like, potentially long term more than direct response, because I don't think anyone is going to stop like, you know, their thing and be like, Oh, wow, I need to buy a programming course.

1440
01:57:26,710 --> 01:57:29,790
Nico: So yeah, I think it's just something...

1441
01:57:29,790 --> 01:57:31,550
Nesters: You have a pixel you can retarget as well.

1442
01:57:31,850 --> 01:57:31,970
Nesters: Yeah.

1443
01:57:32,750 --> 01:57:33,150
Nico: Yeah.

1444
01:57:33,270 --> 01:57:37,810
Nico: So if, if you manage to get them on the website, then yeah, you can retarget them, for sure.

1445
01:57:38,570 --> 01:57:42,450
Nico: But yeah, it's, it's very niche, I would say.

1446
01:57:42,530 --> 01:57:52,110
Nico: And probably like, if you have like a, like a SaaS, like a productivity app, or something, like, you know, a bit more technical, then it might not not work.

1447
01:57:52,270 --> 01:57:55,090
Nico: But it's just, you know, sometimes you have to think out of the box.

1448
01:57:55,090 --> 01:58:04,170
Nico: And it's worth like, trying things out, like, for like, Mark has this QR code t shirt, and he actually made sales from that.

1449
01:58:05,130 --> 01:58:10,210
Nico: So yeah, it's just, sometimes you have to try things and see what happens.

1450
01:58:10,370 --> 01:58:12,190
Nico: And you know, it doesn't always work.

1451
01:58:12,330 --> 01:58:15,070
Nico: But when it works, then you can continue doing it.

1452
01:58:17,010 --> 01:58:29,990
Nesters: Yeah, I think, yeah, I've noticed that there's way more marketing generally now done as content, basically, content is the marketing that I think even Mark was doing some kind of was, was it?

1453
01:58:30,530 --> 01:58:32,130
Nesters: I don't even know who did it.

1454
01:58:32,190 --> 01:58:36,290
Nesters: Was it Mark who did it in Paris and was doing some kind of stunt?

1455
01:58:37,190 --> 01:58:44,150
Nesters: Yeah, I think it was, like, I think that's mostly from the, from the stunt itself sometimes.

1456
01:58:44,150 --> 01:58:48,950
Nesters: But it's also like, the content itself basically is working as marketing for the brand nowadays.

1457
01:58:49,850 --> 01:58:57,970
Nico: So yeah, again, it's, I think it also works because he's, he has like a very broad audience.

1458
01:58:58,370 --> 01:59:08,030
Nico: So it also comes down to that, like, like, technically, his audience can be anyone who wants to, like, learn programming, startup and stuff like that.

1459
01:59:08,070 --> 01:59:12,190
Nico: So, you know, anyone could be the audience, technically.

1460
01:59:12,910 --> 01:59:20,310
Nico: But obviously, if you have like a, like screenshot API, then that's not going to work because the audience is like very specific.

1461
01:59:20,610 --> 01:59:26,190
Nico: So it also, again, come back to the audience size, etc.

1462
01:59:27,670 --> 01:59:30,050
Nesters: Now, I guess if you, yeah, I completely get it.

1463
01:59:30,090 --> 01:59:47,030
Nesters: I mean, I guess if you lived in a specific area, there was like a tech hub, you could theoretically do something niche related to that kind of stunt, like, like Peter Levels bought the billboard in front of the one of the Apple office, I believe that was office that time for the remote,

1464
01:59:47,290 --> 01:59:48,150
Nesters: remote thing.

1465
01:59:48,310 --> 01:59:49,570
Nesters: So yeah, I kind of, I kind of get it.

1466
01:59:49,630 --> 01:59:57,890
Nesters: Like, if you can technically do some kind of stunts, if you live in a specific area, and that's actually relevant to your product, then maybe you can go more niche with that.

1467
01:59:57,990 --> 01:59:59,290
Nesters: But obviously, I get it.

1468
01:59:59,330 --> 02:00:00,710
Nesters: Yeah, it's very broad.

1469
02:00:01,090 --> 02:00:02,150
Nesters: It's very broad for Mark.

1470
02:00:04,150 --> 02:00:13,410
Nesters: Do we have, by the way, anyone like want to ask questions like this time, we have actually not had a single listener ask question, although they're listening, which is great.

1471
02:00:13,970 --> 02:00:19,330
Nesters: And, but this time, surprisingly, the audience was not asking questions.

1472
02:00:19,530 --> 02:00:29,910
Nesters: But then again, most of the audience today, except Vlad right now, is actually completely new, I think, to the our usual audience.

1473
02:00:30,350 --> 02:00:33,870
Daniel: Yeah, not even, not even Dago wanted to ask his own question.

1474
02:00:34,090 --> 02:00:35,250
Nesters: Yeah, yeah, that was interesting.

1475
02:00:35,890 --> 02:00:35,890
Yeah.

1476
02:00:36,010 --> 02:00:38,090
Daniel: Yeah, the upper the upper in chief.

1477
02:00:38,390 --> 02:00:43,530
Nesters: So I know we also have Yeah, that's also someone who you occasionally joins.

1478
02:00:44,010 --> 02:00:46,630
Nesters: But yeah, we definitely have a different audience this time.

1479
02:00:46,730 --> 02:00:47,350
Nesters: So it's nice.

1480
02:00:47,510 --> 02:00:49,970
Nesters: It's actually nice to have a new audience.

1481
02:00:50,630 --> 02:00:56,910
Daniel: So there was there was a maybe maybe just a casual question.

1482
02:00:57,010 --> 02:01:04,710
Daniel: There was an interesting chat conversation, the small bats can fire just a few minutes ago about how come there's so many French successful entrepreneurs.

1483
02:01:05,170 --> 02:01:09,750
Daniel: And we were just wondering if there's any, any getting in the in the water.

1484
02:01:12,350 --> 02:01:15,330
Daniel: We know, and we have actually quite a few French people here.

1485
02:01:15,590 --> 02:01:17,010
Daniel: So and many of them successful.

1486
02:01:18,190 --> 02:01:19,250
Nico: How many French?

1487
02:01:19,670 --> 02:01:21,270
Nico: Yeah, I don't know.

1488
02:01:21,950 --> 02:01:22,750
Daniel: No, no, how many?

1489
02:01:22,950 --> 02:01:23,810
Daniel: But how come?

1490
02:01:23,870 --> 02:01:28,190
Daniel: How come there's so many, I think, compared to other European countries, at least.

1491
02:01:28,750 --> 02:01:29,990
Daniel: So I like this.

1492
02:01:31,390 --> 02:01:40,670
Nico: I think I think one of the reasons is the taxes are so bad and everyone wants to live in the first place that come into your mind is Bali.

1493
02:01:40,810 --> 02:01:43,950
Nico: And then you meet other French people who left for the exact same reasons.

1494
02:01:44,250 --> 02:01:47,430
Nico: And the weather, obviously, the weather is a little terrible half of the year.

1495
02:01:48,050 --> 02:01:50,030
Nico: So yeah, I think that might be one.

1496
02:01:50,110 --> 02:01:51,310
Nico: But yeah, I don't know.

1497
02:01:51,350 --> 02:01:52,170
Nico: Otherwise, I don't know.

1498
02:01:52,230 --> 02:01:56,450
Nico: I don't have maybe something related to cheese.

1499
02:01:57,470 --> 02:02:06,570
Nesters: Does the tax thing also, in a way, force people to like, it might sound contradictory that the taxes would force you to become an entrepreneur.

1500
02:02:07,230 --> 02:02:11,430
Nesters: But in a way, taxes does help you avoid some of that.

1501
02:02:11,750 --> 02:02:23,770
Nesters: I mean, the taxes, but entrepreneurship, and having products and a company technically does provide you a way to avoid some of the taxation because you can spend some of the technically for yourself, free tax.

1502
02:02:24,250 --> 02:02:31,410
Nesters: Is that actually something that might play into sometimes actually increasing the entrepreneurship?

1503
02:02:32,610 --> 02:02:33,830
Nico: So the thing, yeah.

1504
02:02:34,090 --> 02:02:43,230
Nico: So in France, when you hire someone, I think they get maybe, I would say less like in actual like what they get in their account at the end.

1505
02:02:43,350 --> 02:02:48,850
Nico: And after taxes is probably, I would say easily less than 40%.

1506
02:02:48,850 --> 02:02:50,030
Nico: I'm not sure.

1507
02:02:50,030 --> 02:02:58,950
Nico: I don't have numbers right now, but it's probably something around that because I know that you pay as an employer, you pay almost double and then the employer also has taxes.

1508
02:02:59,070 --> 02:03:04,950
Nico: So you get very little money at the end compared to like US or whatever.

1509
02:03:06,070 --> 02:03:11,070
Nico: I don't know if that plays a big part because I've never really had a job.

1510
02:03:12,850 --> 02:03:24,090
Nico: But at least when you are an entrepreneur, like for the community part, if you leave France, you go to Bali, you meet new people, then you go online, etc.

1511
02:03:26,990 --> 02:03:29,010
Nico: You're more present online.

1512
02:03:29,250 --> 02:03:33,510
Nico: So there isn't that much community in France, I would say.

1513
02:03:33,850 --> 02:03:38,070
Nico: They are like local indie communities, but they still come from the indie community.

1514
02:03:38,330 --> 02:03:51,550
Nico: So I don't know, maybe compared to other... I know there is probably like lots of people in London doing startup and they just don't know about indie making or anything because they already have lots of people.

1515
02:03:51,730 --> 02:03:53,790
Nico: So I think that might be one of the reasons.

1516
02:03:54,010 --> 02:04:01,170
Nico: It's not necessarily there are more people, it's just that France is so hostile toward entrepreneurs that lots of people want to leave.

1517
02:04:01,270 --> 02:04:07,150
Nico: And naturally they gather then online or in hubs like Bali where they end up online anyway.

1518
02:04:07,970 --> 02:04:11,810
Nesters: Yeah, I think people usually actually go to London for the startup.

1519
02:04:11,990 --> 02:04:16,370
Nesters: So there's like this bias in a because London is one of the startup centers.

1520
02:04:16,450 --> 02:04:19,630
Nesters: Technically, it is the center in Europe.

1521
02:04:20,330 --> 02:04:25,190
Nesters: There's also some locations out there like Berlin, Stockholm is okay location as well.

1522
02:04:26,670 --> 02:04:29,430
Nesters: Obviously, I can see why.

1523
02:04:29,970 --> 02:04:37,930
Nesters: I have noticed this weird thing though with France, there is definitely a little bit more entrepreneurship going on with French people.

1524
02:04:38,070 --> 02:04:44,230
Nesters: I even know that from video games as well, like France has quite a lot of various video game studios.

1525
02:04:45,510 --> 02:04:54,830
Nesters: I don't know why, but there are some areas where it seems to be that maybe it's the creative part of the whole culture, etc.

1526
02:04:55,030 --> 02:04:58,870
Nesters: Because you like your riots, you know, all kinds.

1527
02:04:59,450 --> 02:05:00,290
Nesters: You guys are different.

1528
02:05:00,630 --> 02:05:08,410
Nesters: There's a different culture, you know, because the riot thing is in a way like you just want to break things, you want to also just have something different.

1529
02:05:09,670 --> 02:05:15,310
Nesters: Yeah, like there is something like you want to like change something, you know, like it just have a change, you know.

1530
02:05:15,350 --> 02:05:25,450
Nesters: So maybe there is a cultural aspect that actually plays into that being even if you want to leave, you'll be like, yeah, I'm just going away, but I'm also doing my own thing, you know.

1531
02:05:26,990 --> 02:05:28,830
Nesters: Then maybe there is an aspect of that.

1532
02:05:30,090 --> 02:05:44,690
Nesters: Because it is interesting, definitely, because I've noticed that I feel like I hear more about the French, like the entrepreneurs, the solo entrepreneurs nowadays than I hear of German ones, for example, although Germany has more higher population.

1533
02:05:46,310 --> 02:05:50,290
Nesters: And also, obviously, they also have a lot of opportunities to do that.

1534
02:05:50,690 --> 02:05:57,050
Nesters: So and they also have reasons to because the taxation, etc., they want to do the same, you know, they might want to do the same.

1535
02:05:57,910 --> 02:06:08,690
Nico: But I think also like, it's, it might feel that there are many French ones, because, you know, they yap more compared to like German ones.

1536
02:06:08,730 --> 02:06:15,810
Nico: So maybe I don't know, they're like, lots of German entrepreneurs who don't really post anything, they just, you know, have their business, etc.

1537
02:06:16,250 --> 02:06:27,550
Nico: So I don't know, I don't know if there is actually more French people, because the culture, like culturally, France is really hostile toward entrepreneurs and anyone who is like successful.

1538
02:06:27,690 --> 02:06:32,990
Nico: It's like people will always be like, oh, you got lucky, or you know, you're like a scammer or something.

1539
02:06:33,010 --> 02:06:41,130
Nico: It's like, it's, there's always like bad, like, I would say bad things linked to, you know, making money in France overall.

1540
02:06:41,510 --> 02:06:43,810
Nesters: Yeah, I think it makes make a good point.

1541
02:06:43,910 --> 02:06:53,650
Nesters: Like, because in Germany, you definitely are a little bit more pragmatic, I guess, and it may be quieter in that sense that you don't just yap like that guy is an extreme example.

1542
02:06:53,810 --> 02:06:54,950
Nesters: It's like yapping all the time.

1543
02:06:57,290 --> 02:07:04,470
Nesters: I guess that, yeah, that is, I guess that part of the being a little bit louder, even the point about brought about the, you know, writing or something.

1544
02:07:04,490 --> 02:07:12,750
Nesters: It's like just being loud, you know, like making the statements, just, we have a question, by the way, it was in text, they left it under a tweet.

1545
02:07:12,990 --> 02:07:14,450
Nesters: Now, it was from Max.

1546
02:07:14,590 --> 02:07:22,170
Nesters: And his question is, do you focus on polished on onboarding before or after launching the product?

1547
02:07:23,270 --> 02:07:40,090
Nico: Yeah, I guess that means, yeah, yeah, yeah, I usually do it after, because, like, actually, I do a polished onboarding once I want to improve my numbers.

1548
02:07:40,290 --> 02:07:48,850
Nico: So the, like, before any onboarding or anything, I just want to know if people would actually first click on my landing page call to action.

1549
02:07:49,030 --> 02:07:53,730
Nico: So that's the first thing I would optimize, just the landing page, I would just focus everything on the landing page.

1550
02:07:53,870 --> 02:07:57,290
Nico: And then the, you know, the product, the onboarding is like secondary.

1551
02:07:57,650 --> 02:08:05,630
Nico: So for generate ads, for example, when I launched, there were actually some, you know, some, some bugs, I fix them, I fixed them.

1552
02:08:05,770 --> 02:08:08,790
Nico: But when I launched, there were some bugs, like it wasn't really polished.

1553
02:08:09,250 --> 02:08:17,190
Nico: I just wanted to verify that people would actually be interested in, you know, in buying the app, I didn't have any onboarding, it was just straight to the app.

1554
02:08:17,790 --> 02:08:25,310
Nico: But now that I kind of validated that, then okay, I, like, I just did a new onboarding like two days ago.

1555
02:08:26,450 --> 02:08:38,890
Nico: But only after that, okay, now I need to have a good onboarding because people click on the call to action and buy or buy the app, but then they don't know where to start, they ask support, or they don't end up purchasing because of that, etc.

1556
02:08:39,030 --> 02:08:41,990
Nico: So I usually do it after the launch.

1557
02:08:44,130 --> 02:08:44,590
Nesters: Fair enough.

1558
02:08:45,210 --> 02:08:47,810
Nesters: Yeah, I've listened to your videos a bit.

1559
02:08:47,930 --> 02:09:06,190
Nesters: And also the some of the posts, I noticed that it was obvious that if it was that you actually did like type form initially for make logo, I believe you were actually manually generating some of the whole flow, like actually delivering the product to the customer was not fast,

1560
02:09:06,230 --> 02:09:08,070
Nesters: like it was actually manual, you know?

1561
02:09:08,930 --> 02:09:13,790
Nico: Yeah, I was like sending like making the logos locally, then sending the email.

1562
02:09:14,730 --> 02:09:24,030
Nico: So yeah, it was like, because again, I didn't want to spend too much time on it if I didn't knew for sure that people would pay for it.

1563
02:09:24,110 --> 02:09:32,470
Nico: So that was the I think the easiest way is just the only thing that matter when you launch is would people pay for that or sign up for that?

1564
02:09:32,470 --> 02:09:34,230
Nico: And then okay, you can improve the rest.

1565
02:09:35,550 --> 02:09:43,690
Nesters: That's your advantage in that sense, because you're not naturally you were not a programmer by your profession.

1566
02:09:43,970 --> 02:09:47,750
Nesters: So you were just learned, I had learned programming beforehand, I guess.

1567
02:09:48,310 --> 02:10:03,130
Nesters: And they were so you're not, because that's the trap we get maybe as a tech people get stuck in is that we start thinking like we need to have the funnel and everything actually implemented before we start taking the money like not just the funnel, but the whole process of automating it.

1568
02:10:03,350 --> 02:10:05,690
Nesters: But, but actually, you just want the paid customers.

1569
02:10:05,910 --> 02:10:16,290
Nesters: So you don't necessarily always need to have obviously will be horrible, not horrible, but in a way bad if the launch explodes, and you actually have a lot to do manually that you can't deliver.

1570
02:10:16,670 --> 02:10:19,910
Nesters: But that's not the problem you should be thinking about before having any.

1571
02:10:20,090 --> 02:10:20,390
Nico: Yeah, it's good.

1572
02:10:20,830 --> 02:10:21,170
Nico: Yeah.

1573
02:10:21,990 --> 02:10:33,810
Nico: Yeah, it's like, you know, and that's something I noticed I do less and less as I grow in skills in programming is like I tend to waste more time on like, small stuff, which I shouldn't.

1574
02:10:33,990 --> 02:10:41,870
Nico: But I think it's, it's really like a programming thing where you know, you want the thing to be done to be fair and square, like good.

1575
02:10:42,130 --> 02:10:45,590
Nico: So I don't know, I noticed that I've been doing it a bit more.

1576
02:10:45,650 --> 02:10:50,510
Nico: But yeah, when like, just don't fix the problems until you experience them.

1577
02:10:50,750 --> 02:10:59,230
Nico: As a general rule, I would I would say, like they're like exceptions, of course, where, like, you don't want to have like customers API key leaking or stuff like that.

1578
02:10:59,310 --> 02:11:03,730
Nico: But for like, non critical thing, you can always fix it later.

1579
02:11:03,870 --> 02:11:16,310
Nico: And even you know, if people start to complain, they're like, pretty understanding, like even for, I don't know, when I launched, yeah, even with generate ads, like I had bugs, people were like, hey, there is a bug.

1580
02:11:16,410 --> 02:11:23,470
Nico: But then, you know, as long as you provide support, people were like, they're like happy, because they know they see that you care, you're responsive.

1581
02:11:23,630 --> 02:11:28,990
Nico: So it doesn't really matter that much that there are problems, as long as you fix them.

1582
02:11:29,150 --> 02:11:32,370
Nico: And you're good with customers.

1583
02:11:35,790 --> 02:11:38,930
Nesters: Yeah, we did have someone request to speak before.

1584
02:11:39,070 --> 02:11:43,650
Nesters: But if you have a question, you're still around, you can ask it right now.

1585
02:11:43,870 --> 02:11:46,790
Nesters: I guess we've obviously crossed the two hour mark.

1586
02:11:46,790 --> 02:11:50,010
Nesters: And I don't know how much time you have left yourself.

1587
02:11:50,310 --> 02:11:53,970
Nico: I don't have any, I don't have anything planned after.

1588
02:11:54,290 --> 02:12:02,070
Nesters: So yeah, we obviously have mostly gone through most of the topics we generally were thinking about talking.

1589
02:12:02,710 --> 02:12:08,530
Nesters: So like, if anyone has any questions that personally like relate, relate to them, you can ask now.

1590
02:12:08,810 --> 02:12:20,730
Nesters: I mean, Mark can also speak about some of the things because I felt like, yeah, one thing for me is that, because you went to Bali, and you met some ecommerce guys there at the time.

1591
02:12:21,390 --> 02:12:28,150
Nesters: Are those the people that Peter Levels was complaining about that were initially in the region?

1592
02:12:28,430 --> 02:12:43,290
Nesters: Were those like, some of them were a little bit, you know, like, you know, there was a lot of just pump and dump type of schemes, the Ponzi's and stuff, like people just like being very hostile culture wise, regardless of any ethics at all.

1593
02:12:43,930 --> 02:12:44,330
Nico: Yeah.

1594
02:12:44,390 --> 02:12:46,770
Nesters: Was part of that community like that at the time?

1595
02:12:46,770 --> 02:12:48,890
Nico: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1596
02:12:48,990 --> 02:12:57,190
Nico: So the thing, I don't know now, but when I was there, there was just so many coaches.

1597
02:12:57,870 --> 02:13:04,170
Nico: And like, you know, you've got some like legit ones who actually do useful stuff, but then you have coaches for coaches.

1598
02:13:04,430 --> 02:13:22,810
Nico: Then I had a guy like a guy I met, and you know, like, he was a friend, but then he started doing coaching for like, professional sport, I don't know, sportsman, I don't know the English term, like performer sport people.

1599
02:13:23,230 --> 02:13:27,950
Nico: The guy don't even do real sport, he just try like jiu jitsu a few times.

1600
02:13:28,150 --> 02:13:39,110
Nico: Like, so yeah, there are lots of things going on like that, where, you know, they just go to Bali, and it's a great place for them, because they can say, Oh, yeah, look at my lifestyle.

1601
02:13:39,290 --> 02:13:41,070
Nico: Two years ago, I was, I was broke.

1602
02:13:41,170 --> 02:13:46,550
Nico: And now look, and, and they can make content for it, because it's, it's so cheap, or at least it used to be.

1603
02:13:46,810 --> 02:13:49,850
Nico: I think lots of them are moving now for this reason.

1604
02:13:49,930 --> 02:13:55,550
Nico: But lots of people were going to Bali to make content, to grow their like personal brand and stuff like that.

1605
02:13:55,590 --> 02:14:04,390
Nico: So yeah, there are lots of like, even like, like in eCommerce, people who did like actual scams, like they were bragging about it.

1606
02:14:04,450 --> 02:14:06,450
Nico: Like, Oh, yeah, I do like, it's called like no ship.

1607
02:14:06,590 --> 02:14:08,070
Nico: So you sell the product, you never ship it.

1608
02:14:08,190 --> 02:14:13,810
Nico: And, and you just close the store you like, so there are so many of them.

1609
02:14:14,030 --> 02:14:15,810
Nico: And it was really awful.

1610
02:14:15,950 --> 02:14:18,750
Nico: I hated that part of Bali.

1611
02:14:19,290 --> 02:14:21,570
Nico: So yeah, it was, I don't know now.

1612
02:14:21,670 --> 02:14:23,850
Nico: But there were lots of them back then, at least.

1613
02:14:23,990 --> 02:14:27,070
Nesters: Yeah, that's much worse no ship than that what Daigo is doing.

1614
02:14:28,130 --> 02:14:30,930
Nico: Yeah, no, it's like no, they were like real actual scammers.

1615
02:14:31,070 --> 02:14:35,250
Nico: Like, even some of them got like, they got like, arrested, like, I know.

1616
02:14:35,370 --> 02:14:40,130
Nico: So like, at least one guy was arrested, because he was like, scamming like international scam.

1617
02:14:40,250 --> 02:14:45,950
Nico: And he got in jail or something like a really, like, really like shit people sometimes.

1618
02:14:46,670 --> 02:15:01,790
Nesters: Yeah, regarding that, I believe this, I actually believe that Peter Levels hate for courseboys, as he calls them, comes from the fact that it's a little bit frozen in time with his experience from the community there.

1619
02:15:02,710 --> 02:15:14,650
Nico: Yeah, I actually really like, you know, that's one of the main reason I didn't want it to make maker ads is because I didn't want it to be associated to like those people making courses and stuff.

1620
02:15:15,550 --> 02:15:19,890
Nico: I'm glad I did at the end, because you know, I got a lot of really good feedback from it.

1621
02:15:19,950 --> 02:15:24,950
Nico: But yeah, it's got like a really, really, really bad connotation.

1622
02:15:25,010 --> 02:15:35,590
Nico: Like if you go in Bali, and you have someone say, Oh, yeah, I'm a coach, or I'm a content creator, stuff like that, you know, that they're not, they're into like, some not great stuff, actually.

1623
02:15:39,500 --> 02:15:41,880
Nesters: Yeah, I think Daniel wanted to add something.

1624
02:15:42,220 --> 02:15:48,400
Daniel: No, no, I was going to tell a joke when the guy got arrested, I was going to say maybe he didn't have the cookie banner set up properly.

1625
02:15:48,820 --> 02:15:50,760
Daniel: But I lost my opportunity.

1626
02:15:51,320 --> 02:15:51,540
Nico: Yeah.

1627
02:15:52,660 --> 02:15:54,200
Nico: Yeah, it's funny that he didn't.

1628
02:15:54,360 --> 02:16:07,220
Nesters: Yeah, I think I still want to give a shout out to the fact that well GDP, GDPR in a way as it was might go away, but people who complain about that they need to do all the compliance and cookie banners.

1629
02:16:07,600 --> 02:16:15,440
Nesters: There's been only like a little bit over 2000 fines issued, the GDPR fines issued in the whole European Union.

1630
02:16:15,640 --> 02:16:17,300
Nesters: It's not something you should be worried about.

1631
02:16:17,680 --> 02:16:20,520
Nesters: And 20% of those fines are in Spain alone.

1632
02:16:20,620 --> 02:16:22,500
Nesters: So if you're not from Spain, you're probably fine.

1633
02:16:23,940 --> 02:16:35,460
Nico: Yeah, it's probably, I suspect this is more like a political tool that government can use to, you know, annoy companies, then actually something like you just give them a reason to, I don't know.

1634
02:16:35,640 --> 02:16:37,760
Nesters: Yeah, I mean, large companies would be more.

1635
02:16:38,100 --> 02:16:38,480
Nico: Yeah, yeah.

1636
02:16:38,760 --> 02:16:42,500
Nico: It was basically made for against Meta and all the other big platforms.

1637
02:16:42,860 --> 02:16:42,860
Yeah.

1638
02:16:42,900 --> 02:16:50,220
Nesters: So yeah, like when you have like a smaller, like, where it feels bad, there's always always people who will might just have nothing better to do.

1639
02:16:50,360 --> 02:16:53,680
Nesters: And they just will be mean to you and be like, yeah, I'm going to report you.

1640
02:16:53,820 --> 02:16:54,560
Nesters: You're not doing it.

1641
02:16:54,720 --> 02:16:56,900
Nesters: But like, but it's not it's not going to happen.

1642
02:16:56,960 --> 02:17:00,060
Nesters: Like they, the chances they will come after you are so low.

1643
02:17:00,080 --> 02:17:04,640
Nesters: And it's not like I'm not giving you like legal advice, but the chances they'll come after you are so low.

1644
02:17:04,700 --> 02:17:22,060
Nesters: Like I've had the e-commerce stores I've consulted for that accidentally removed the cookie banner or something for a year or something, nothing happened, you know, like, and they have way more to risk considering also the low margins, if some fine would come that would be horrible for business with the cash flow as well.

1645
02:17:23,140 --> 02:17:25,660
Nesters: Yeah, no, it's not, it's not that bad.

1646
02:17:25,980 --> 02:17:38,520
Nesters: Like, same with obviously the incorporation, like you can technically start the business before you incorporate in most places and then do it post factum after you get the sale or something.

1647
02:17:41,420 --> 02:17:45,300
Nico: Yeah, so build first and fix later.

1648
02:17:47,340 --> 02:17:56,020
Nesters: Yeah, so that's, that's just for the Europeans especially, that's an important reminder for me to feel like it's not, it's not that bad.

1649
02:17:57,160 --> 02:17:57,960
Nesters: It's not that bad.

1650
02:18:00,260 --> 02:18:04,820
Nesters: Yeah, so also, like, obviously anyone else has any questions?

1651
02:18:05,420 --> 02:18:21,240
Nesters: I mean, we talked about the camps in Bali and stuff, which it's obviously, like, that I remember, because I believe it started with Tim Ferriss, because a lot of people who went there after Tim Ferriss became like one of these coaches for coaches, and yeah,

1652
02:18:22,080 --> 02:18:22,640
Nesters: cameras, etc.

1653
02:18:22,800 --> 02:18:30,860
Nesters: Like, and later, the only the digital nomads from the tech space and the indie makers, like started actually going there.

1654
02:18:31,480 --> 02:18:36,300
Nesters: So there's like a shift in community over time, I guess, but it was not like that initially.

1655
02:18:36,760 --> 02:18:40,380
Nesters: So oh, yeah, we have someone who again, disappeared.

1656
02:18:40,580 --> 02:18:40,740
Nesters: Okay.

1657
02:18:41,000 --> 02:18:44,820
Nico: But apparently, now there are lots of vibe coders.

1658
02:18:45,260 --> 02:18:48,720
Nico: It's a new, like, you know, after the coaches, dropshippers, now it's vibe coders.

1659
02:18:48,880 --> 02:18:53,820
Nico: Apparently, I heard that, you know, lots of them are like, oh, yeah, I don't know how to code.

1660
02:18:53,880 --> 02:18:54,620
Nico: I don't know how to market.

1661
02:18:54,800 --> 02:18:57,120
Nico: I just go to Bali, and I will figure things out.

1662
02:18:57,340 --> 02:19:01,440
Nesters: So that's a nice, that's a nice merch idea for probably.

1663
02:19:02,560 --> 02:19:03,960
Nico: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1664
02:19:04,000 --> 02:19:07,200
Nico: I mean, there's probably like a good opportunities to sell shovels.

1665
02:19:07,200 --> 02:19:08,880
Nesters: Actually, more like Peter levels.

1666
02:19:09,060 --> 02:19:11,280
Nesters: Yeah, he could sell the merch like that.

1667
02:19:13,480 --> 02:19:13,920
Nesters: Yeah.

1668
02:19:13,920 --> 02:19:16,280
Nesters: But yeah, yeah, vibe coder, I guess.

1669
02:19:16,940 --> 02:19:20,180
Nesters: I assume, yeah, vibe coding will actually bring another wave of that, right?

1670
02:19:20,260 --> 02:19:23,820
Nesters: Because people will, pre-revenue, they need to go somewhere cheap.

1671
02:19:24,260 --> 02:19:28,560
Nesters: They're just going to be vibing apps that will be broken in many ways.

1672
02:19:28,600 --> 02:19:32,740
Nesters: And I'm not saying you shouldn't ship like an app just broke, just get clients, obviously makes sense.

1673
02:19:32,880 --> 02:19:41,800
Nesters: But I guess that could actually turn into another way of that, where you feel like you can actually do everything with vibe coding.

1674
02:19:42,000 --> 02:19:43,700
Nesters: So you just ship, ship, ship, ship.

1675
02:19:45,640 --> 02:19:57,920
Nico: Yeah, I mean, it's like, I do use AI2Code but I don't think it can fully replace an actual like dev for now.

1676
02:19:58,620 --> 02:20:04,840
Nico: But there is, like for, you know, fairly simple app, I think it can do the job.

1677
02:20:05,000 --> 02:20:07,760
Nico: And there is, oh shit, what's his name?

1678
02:20:09,320 --> 02:20:10,620
Nico: Ah, man, I forgot.

1679
02:20:11,460 --> 02:20:12,620
Nico: I have his name.

1680
02:20:12,960 --> 02:20:17,540
Nico: But yeah, but he made like an app for like an influencer campaign.

1681
02:20:17,740 --> 02:20:20,520
Nico: And he actually do all vibe coding.

1682
02:20:20,780 --> 02:20:26,700
Nico: So it can work, but I don't know, I don't feel like it's perfect yet.

1683
02:20:26,880 --> 02:20:32,700
Nico: And I, for me, at least it's faster to use AI to help, but make the thing myself.

1684
02:20:33,440 --> 02:20:34,040
Nico: So I don't know.

1685
02:20:34,100 --> 02:20:37,920
Nico: But yeah, in any case, I think the market is going to grow.

1686
02:20:38,100 --> 02:20:44,520
Nico: And especially like for like, I fix your bad code services, I think there are going to be lots of opportunities.

1687
02:20:45,780 --> 02:20:53,380
Nesters: Yeah, I think he actually was as a listener here, it was, gosh, I already forgot his name.

1688
02:20:54,580 --> 02:20:58,400
Nesters: There was one person who was also, I'm sorry, I forgot your name.

1689
02:20:58,560 --> 02:21:00,960
Nesters: But there was one person who was also selling the service.

1690
02:21:01,560 --> 02:21:10,020
Nesters: And he actually, he was selling, I guess, like more like a lifetime, not lifetime deal, but more like unlimited some fixing vibe code.

1691
02:21:10,720 --> 02:21:18,000
Nesters: But he ended up switching to hourly rate later because of the fact that it's too unpredictable.

1692
02:21:18,200 --> 02:21:22,200
Nesters: And there's just too many issues coming up all the time, which is obvious that that will happen.

1693
02:21:22,300 --> 02:21:22,420
Nesters: Yeah.

1694
02:21:22,480 --> 02:21:25,800
Nesters: But he actually had to switch to the hourly rate for that.

1695
02:21:26,780 --> 02:21:26,900
Nico: Yeah.

1696
02:21:27,440 --> 02:21:31,660
Nico: I don't think that's a lifetime deal in this case, probably not the wisest idea.

1697
02:21:31,900 --> 02:21:34,740
Nesters: Yeah, it was Paul, it was poor Bertrand, I think.

1698
02:21:34,840 --> 02:21:35,920
Nesters: Yeah, I think.

1699
02:21:36,080 --> 02:21:42,040
Nesters: Yeah, he mentioned that he switched to the hourly rate for this.

1700
02:21:42,920 --> 02:21:53,360
Nesters: And that obviously explains that you do technically need some dev skills to be able to use AI properly, although it can help you ship as you use your manual workflow.

1701
02:21:54,020 --> 02:22:00,820
Nesters: It's in a way a step you could have in a way a step up from no code tools that you can actually have a little bit more freedom.

1702
02:22:01,420 --> 02:22:14,760
Nesters: But the problem is you kind of need what I would say, maybe like a marks type of boilerplate as a base where you limit where you limit the exposure to some of the risks for payments and perhaps like the database users.

1703
02:22:16,000 --> 02:22:35,380
Nesters: The user set up an authentication, for example, but you still can like why wipe code some of the some of the features, I feel like there's a space that's missing somewhere between that no code restrictions and like the just doing whatever is that there will be some restrictions on payments,

1704
02:22:35,720 --> 02:22:38,140
Nesters: authentication, basically the database stuff.

1705
02:22:40,460 --> 02:22:48,160
Nesters: Like anything that's related to like risk, risk, risk, more risky aspects, and then the rest could be just wipe coded, for example.

1706
02:22:48,340 --> 02:22:51,080
Nesters: I think that's a space there could be a product, for example.

1707
02:22:52,160 --> 02:22:56,300
Nico: Yeah, I mean, I think probably, yeah, like a wipe coding boilerplate or something.

1708
02:22:57,160 --> 02:23:01,080
Nesters: Yeah, I think, yeah, I'm just giving people ideas right now.

1709
02:23:01,200 --> 02:23:02,860
Nesters: You can literally launch a product on that.

1710
02:23:02,940 --> 02:23:20,380
Nesters: I think just I'm not sure how it would look like, but I think there's a there's a wipe coding supportive products like boilerplates definitely possible to use them as in so you can actually help wipe coders to avoid that risk of releasing a product that's broken in a really horrible way,

1711
02:23:20,380 --> 02:23:30,660
Nesters: like with payments or like charging multiple times or authentication as well, where you're just leaking, maybe even leaking some information from other users, which is the biggest risk factor.

1712
02:23:33,460 --> 02:23:38,040
Nesters: Oh, yeah, we have I'll approve Mike, if you have a question.

1713
02:23:39,160 --> 02:23:43,500
Nesters: I just approved, I believe, Mike, if he's still in the audience, you can ask a question.

1714
02:23:44,340 --> 02:23:45,600
Mike: Hello, I am.

1715
02:23:45,780 --> 02:23:46,640
Mike: Can you guys hear me?

1716
02:23:47,480 --> 02:23:47,640
Nesters: Yeah.

1717
02:23:48,200 --> 02:23:48,380
Mike: Yeah.

1718
02:23:48,580 --> 02:23:49,920
Mike: So I have a question.

1719
02:23:50,220 --> 02:23:54,320
Mike: Going back to the Bali scams and so on.

1720
02:23:54,640 --> 02:24:03,060
Mike: I believe there is also like a whole scene of, let's say, gray area products that nobody's talking about.

1721
02:24:03,280 --> 02:24:08,420
Mike: And for example, some of them are or were normalized in the past.

1722
02:24:08,920 --> 02:24:17,480
Mike: To give you a concrete example, Reply Guy, do you guys know what it is or how does it work?

1723
02:24:18,520 --> 02:24:22,480
Nico: For like automated, like AI replies on social media, no?

1724
02:24:23,620 --> 02:24:24,900
Mike: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1725
02:24:26,260 --> 02:24:31,540
Mike: So in like the normal words, we would call it a spam bot, right?

1726
02:24:32,220 --> 02:24:33,140
Daniel: Oh, yeah.

1727
02:24:34,880 --> 02:24:44,920
Mike: And I believe there is like a whole scene of, let's say, services or products, especially coming from Eastern Europe.

1728
02:24:45,060 --> 02:24:53,560
Mike: And as a fellow Eastern European, I can really tell that that scene has existed long time before indie hackers were a thing.

1729
02:24:54,080 --> 02:24:56,580
Mike: And I feel like nobody's really talking about it.

1730
02:24:56,620 --> 02:25:05,680
Mike: Or there isn't really like a centralized space where people could share, like, what kind of products exist, whether they're being built.

1731
02:25:06,060 --> 02:25:11,600
Mike: It's like all hidden in some obscure forums or on Telegram, private group chat.

1732
02:25:11,780 --> 02:25:12,700
Nico: Yeah, like Black Hats.

1733
02:25:12,940 --> 02:25:14,120
Nico: Black Hats forum.

1734
02:25:17,210 --> 02:25:28,210
Mike: Yeah, it doesn't even have to be like, very Black Hat-ish or outright illegal, but on the borderline of gray area and something like that.

1735
02:25:31,550 --> 02:25:36,690
Nico: I mean, yeah, it's just, it's more like marketable with AI now.

1736
02:25:37,810 --> 02:25:59,150
Nesters: Yeah, I think it's ethics, morals, concern often that rather than being illegal, obviously, there's problems with nowadays, I guess, AI bots being so prevalent is that they technically use your front, your brand as a person to communicate with your audience.

1737
02:25:59,450 --> 02:26:04,110
Nesters: So if they reply to a person, they might feel like, oh, the real person replied.

1738
02:26:04,470 --> 02:26:07,850
Nesters: And these things have always existed with actors and celebrities.

1739
02:26:08,070 --> 02:26:12,290
Nesters: There are actually managers that actually respond instead of the actual person.

1740
02:26:12,470 --> 02:26:13,110
Nesters: There's a person.

1741
02:26:13,570 --> 02:26:14,250
Nico: Yeah, community manager.

1742
02:26:14,910 --> 02:26:16,310
Nesters: So it's the same thing.

1743
02:26:16,390 --> 02:26:18,650
Nesters: It's just scaled down to the mass market now.

1744
02:26:19,610 --> 02:26:25,370
Nico: It's probably a dead job now, community manager, like, you can automate everything with AI.

1745
02:26:25,990 --> 02:26:26,230
Nico: But yeah.

1746
02:26:28,430 --> 02:26:35,850
Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I guess, I think the old version of the community manager definitely that I think there's a different aspect.

1747
02:26:36,050 --> 02:26:43,050
Nesters: And generally, like, even in small Betsy, and I can see that, like, there's usually some people who are more active, I mean, including me, obviously.

1748
02:26:43,770 --> 02:26:49,350
Nesters: But there's usually needs someone needs to also keep some discussions going sometimes.

1749
02:26:49,590 --> 02:27:05,090
Nesters: And the vibe also is said both by the person creating the community, that's usually most important, the vibe they said, but also some other people who are interacting with everyone else, there's definitely a different type of community manager, I believe,

1750
02:27:05,210 --> 02:27:09,390
Nesters: role that nowadays is needed for that stuff.

1751
02:27:09,570 --> 02:27:16,370
Nesters: But I agree that a lot of that should, with AI, I think will just be replaced, like these, these roles.

1752
02:27:16,590 --> 02:27:32,410
Nesters: But but this, this issue that about the reply bots and stuff, it's definitely just scaled up what has been done already by like celebrities, for example, before where someone else was responding, instead of them was managing their stuff.

1753
02:27:32,550 --> 02:27:35,990
Nesters: For social media, there was always the content team.

1754
02:27:36,630 --> 02:27:38,870
Nesters: So but this is available now to everyone.

1755
02:27:38,990 --> 02:27:47,770
Nesters: Now it is an issue, obviously, because you expected it in a smaller community that you will have a more personal connection with a business or a person.

1756
02:27:47,930 --> 02:27:50,570
Nesters: But nowadays, that unfortunately, is gone as well.

1757
02:27:51,870 --> 02:28:01,970
Nico: Yeah, to some degree, I just mean that when you see like all the replies on Twitter, I think it's going to get worse and worse.

1758
02:28:03,070 --> 02:28:16,290
Nesters: Yeah, I actually think that that's what I mentioned about the community managers being a different role now is that I think people will gravitate towards communities now like they will, they will off ramp from social media for that purpose.

1759
02:28:16,510 --> 02:28:19,390
Nesters: And they'll try to do a little bit more private, personal.

1760
02:28:20,450 --> 02:28:22,670
Nesters: And it will be a paid product as well, not just free.

1761
02:28:24,070 --> 02:28:25,590
Nico: Yeah, no, yeah, that makes sense.

1762
02:28:25,730 --> 02:28:28,770
Nico: Like close the Yeah, close the community.

1763
02:28:29,270 --> 02:28:31,530
Nesters: I think Mark has a community as well on Discord, right?

1764
02:28:33,490 --> 02:28:34,870
Nico: Yeah, I think so.

1765
02:28:35,030 --> 02:28:35,490
Nico: Yeah, yeah.

1766
02:28:35,550 --> 02:28:40,510
Nico: For I think I don't know if it's two separate ones, but yeah, for Shipfast and Codefast too.

1767
02:28:42,070 --> 02:28:48,850
Nesters: I can invite Nico, I guess another Nico for as a question.

1768
02:28:49,290 --> 02:28:51,510
Nesters: Yeah, you should be able to ask a question.

1769
02:28:53,650 --> 02:28:57,050
Niko: Hey, just wanted to ask a question about because we're talking about Europe.

1770
02:28:57,210 --> 02:28:58,930
Niko: So I'm building like B2B SaaS.

1771
02:28:59,470 --> 02:29:03,570
Niko: And just I think a lot of people here on the call are probably from Europe.

1772
02:29:03,570 --> 02:29:06,590
Niko: And we keep like complaining about it.

1773
02:29:06,630 --> 02:29:07,450
Niko: And I do too.

1774
02:29:07,810 --> 02:29:08,990
Niko: And I also left.

1775
02:29:09,430 --> 02:29:20,130
Niko: But I wondered if selling into European B2B companies is something that like outright annoying as well, or whether or not some people have good experience doing that.

1776
02:29:22,590 --> 02:29:28,030
Nico: I don't have like experience directly in like my experience in B2B is like pretty limited.

1777
02:29:28,150 --> 02:29:35,190
Nico: But with the veterinarian app, I got lots of people from Europe, actually, because with ads, I was targeting like pretty much worldwide.

1778
02:29:36,510 --> 02:29:42,070
Nico: And all of the competitors were focusing on the US market or someone Australia.

1779
02:29:42,210 --> 02:29:46,370
Nico: So I think it's, I would say less competition.

1780
02:29:46,630 --> 02:29:51,270
Nico: They're like more, you know, regulation and stuff like that, but you also get a bit less competition.

1781
02:29:51,410 --> 02:29:56,090
Nico: So I think this is also an opportunity to niche down.

1782
02:29:57,070 --> 02:30:10,430
Nico: Like if you have like if you make a product like for a specific country, like with one language, then it's going to be easier to sell it versus selling like a English product, for example.

1783
02:30:10,870 --> 02:30:13,730
Nico: So I think this is potentially an opportunity.

1784
02:30:13,870 --> 02:30:29,310
Nico: I know that kind of thing works really well with like e-commerce, where they would just pick whatever product was like really popular in the US and they would sell it in Germany or France with like the language translation and local support, etc.

1785
02:30:29,470 --> 02:30:31,970
Nico: So that can also be a strategy, I think.

1786
02:30:33,530 --> 02:30:35,490
Niko: That's exactly what I'm trying to do.

1787
02:30:37,250 --> 02:30:42,570
Niko: I think translations are also so much easier and personalizations for the different countries, right?

1788
02:30:42,610 --> 02:30:44,710
Niko: Yet many US players don't focus on it yet.

1789
02:30:45,650 --> 02:30:49,390
Nico: Yeah, I mean, you can use something like Wiggler to translate all your websites.

1790
02:30:49,610 --> 02:30:50,610
Nico: So it's like, yeah.

1791
02:30:51,470 --> 02:31:00,490
Nesters: Yeah, I wanted to add context here that I believe it's a huge hidden opportunity right now, especially in the SEO space.

1792
02:31:01,550 --> 02:31:05,250
Nesters: Most of the websites, most of the products are sold in English.

1793
02:31:05,370 --> 02:31:20,030
Nesters: So if you want to sell in different regions, different countries, including Europe, where there's so many languages, if you translate your website and your offers in those languages, and you can do some AI automated also support perhaps for that.

1794
02:31:20,750 --> 02:31:31,370
Nesters: The thing is, you can actually reach so much low competition SEO market actually by being able to have the website in multiple languages right now.

1795
02:31:31,710 --> 02:31:34,750
Nesters: That's one market that's often untapped.

1796
02:31:34,990 --> 02:31:42,630
Nesters: There's actually significantly less competition in Spanish, for example, or German than there is in English.

1797
02:31:43,130 --> 02:31:48,330
Nesters: Because most of the products start with the US-centric mindset as well in the SaaS.

1798
02:31:48,550 --> 02:31:52,830
Nesters: It's more used in e-commerce, for example, where they do try to localize more.

1799
02:31:53,090 --> 02:31:58,910
Nesters: But even in e-commerce, often English is the primary language and the other ones are afterthought.

1800
02:31:59,050 --> 02:32:02,850
Nesters: But you could go for a smaller market or expand to a smaller market.

1801
02:32:03,010 --> 02:32:09,610
Nesters: The issues are obviously with the support and the other problems that occur with that, with the languages.

1802
02:32:09,810 --> 02:32:18,690
Nesters: But there are even services in e-commerce, for example, that take 15% of your revenue and they will do all the support and marketing translations, etc.

1803
02:32:18,870 --> 02:32:21,130
Nesters: for the other localized markets.

1804
02:32:26,340 --> 02:32:30,180
Nesters: Yeah, I just wanted to add that as a context.

1805
02:32:30,600 --> 02:32:32,800
Nesters: There's definitely a lot of localization opportunity.

1806
02:32:34,640 --> 02:32:37,740
Nico: Yeah, I mean, it's much easier to sell.

1807
02:32:38,020 --> 02:32:40,920
Nico: Like in France, lots of people don't speak English.

1808
02:32:41,420 --> 02:32:45,420
Nesters: And yeah, you're increasing your conversion rate with those people.

1809
02:32:45,740 --> 02:32:52,080
Nesters: Not just reaching them with SEO easier, but also increasing the conversion rate if you speak to them in their own language.

1810
02:32:57,710 --> 02:33:06,510
Nesters: Obviously, the translations would need to be decent quality for that to be relevant, because you can sometimes notice the page is badly translated.

1811
02:33:06,930 --> 02:33:08,250
Nesters: That's visible.

1812
02:33:09,190 --> 02:33:22,050
Mike: I also feel like European companies or customers were the way that they usually trust their local alternative compared to the global alternative.

1813
02:33:22,450 --> 02:33:34,970
Mike: And they would rather choose something that has, let's say, for German customers, a German face as a front for the company or something like that, if it makes sense.

1814
02:33:37,810 --> 02:33:45,450
Nico: Yeah, I mean, yeah, because then they just feel like they can reach the like the support and all those stuff easier.

1815
02:33:45,650 --> 02:33:47,550
Nico: So yeah, that makes sense.

1816
02:33:48,830 --> 02:33:58,070
Niko: I mean, we just as a note to everyone else, like, I think there's I have so many friends who founders into focus on us, and they actually speak two or three of the main European languages.

1817
02:33:58,350 --> 02:34:13,810
Niko: And it's just such an underutilized skill, because obviously, you can translate with AI, like you need to proofread, you need to support, you need to, like just using that, I think, is just like a hidden superpower that like most US Americans, for example,

1818
02:34:13,930 --> 02:34:17,290
Niko: like they don't speak French, Spanish and German, for example.

1819
02:34:22,050 --> 02:34:24,490
Nesters: Yeah, I mean, Nico is currently muted.

1820
02:34:24,610 --> 02:34:26,290
Nesters: So maybe he has something else to deal with.

1821
02:34:26,410 --> 02:34:46,230
Nesters: But definitely agree that even like products like even something like Gumroad is very US focused, for example, Shopify as a platform is still quite US focused, because we usually had, which Shopify have always had issues that in Europe, you don't support things like that,

1822
02:34:46,250 --> 02:34:53,870
Nesters: that are more popular in Europe now, which is those pickup lockers, where you have delivery to a locker where you can self service and pick up the package.

1823
02:34:54,490 --> 02:35:00,650
Nesters: Those kinds of things that are just not well supported with Shopify, you still can't really integrate lockers like that.

1824
02:35:00,670 --> 02:35:04,530
Nesters: And you need to use apps that do it pre checkout, for example.

1825
02:35:06,650 --> 02:35:22,650
Nesters: Like, those American services and products often are so centered around how business is done in America, like invoice is another thing in Europe, you want the your VAT invoice, for example, but a lot of your US services would not offer that.

1826
02:35:22,890 --> 02:35:37,970
Nesters: So that those opportunities just are like, there's just so much more opportunity to actually target different markets and maybe solve their small niche problems that are really burning in that market, not just language.

1827
02:35:38,590 --> 02:35:49,010
Nesters: And I think people who understand that market in Europe, for example, has a lot of opportunity to serve it even in Europe, people always complain about regulation and issues.

1828
02:35:49,010 --> 02:36:00,750
Nesters: But there's actually also a lot of opportunity by being here and knowing actually what the US drone services actually fail to deliver to the end user.

1829
02:36:03,190 --> 02:36:10,890
Mike: But I think it also underlines the problem with the European market as a whole, that there is no such thing as a European market.

1830
02:36:11,290 --> 02:36:20,030
Mike: It is just as difficult for a Polish company to expand into Germany, just as for the American one.

1831
02:36:22,830 --> 02:36:38,890
Nesters: I mean, the Polish company, aside from maybe financial standpoint, Polish companies should have an easier access to Germany, though, is that it's also even the fact that you can ship faster if your products are actually made in Germany and not in China,

1832
02:36:39,010 --> 02:36:53,330
Nesters: like both either Polish or US company might be doing, you know, like Poland is, after all, manufacturing a lot of stuff, including for Germans, though, German companies, I mean.

1833
02:36:55,470 --> 02:37:01,950
Nesters: I think you know, I mean, I agree on the fact that there's no single market as Europe generally.

1834
02:37:03,050 --> 02:37:09,570
Nesters: But I think there's a little bit more, there's definitely easier way to sell to Europe in some regards.

1835
02:37:09,770 --> 02:37:26,670
Nesters: But I do also agree that generally people will choose to sell to US first, even from Europe, because I know a lot of export businesses, because it's just, it's just simpler, like it's the conversions are generally a little bit simpler, there's more discretionary spending,

1836
02:37:26,930 --> 02:37:31,890
Nesters: you know, there's more money to spend, even businesses B2B, they have more money to spend.

1837
02:37:32,270 --> 02:37:34,750
Nesters: So that advantage obviously exists.

1838
02:37:35,170 --> 02:37:46,990
Nesters: And for niche products, I think you have a lot of opportunity addressing those things in Europe, but you but if you're focusing on scale, obviously, it'd be like, it's easier just to sell to us.

1839
02:37:50,590 --> 02:37:55,770
Nesters: That is, yeah, I agree, actually, with you, there's a lot, it's not like it's a huge advantage, necessarily.

1840
02:37:55,770 --> 02:38:05,370
Nesters: But there's just a niche markets, niche things that for you as an individual might be enough, because we usually focus on like, yeah, there's going to be this issue and that.

1841
02:38:05,510 --> 02:38:22,630
Nesters: But for you as an individual, understanding some of the at least EU wide things that do apply and are like there are still opportunities for you to have the small European product, you know, that's fine for you that doesn't need to go above like 10k MRR,

1842
02:38:22,930 --> 02:38:23,430
Nesters: or etc.

1843
02:38:23,530 --> 02:38:31,610
Nesters: Like you're fine with that income, for example, from that product, and you can do another product on the side, you know, like, there's obviously opportunity.

1844
02:38:31,830 --> 02:38:45,210
Nesters: I kind of feel like there's a little bit, I also believe there's a little bit too much complaining in Europe, even the whole EU acceleration movement, you know, like, it makes sense, we should actually have perhaps a single entity in Europe.

1845
02:38:45,470 --> 02:39:01,890
Nesters: But just because you're complaining about Germany doesn't mean you couldn't incorporate in, let's say, Estonia, I mean, Latvia applies there as well, where you do have actually very easy ways to incorporate, you don't have a corporate tax on annual basis,

1846
02:39:02,090 --> 02:39:05,770
Nesters: your taxes are actually on distribution.

1847
02:39:06,090 --> 02:39:17,490
Nesters: So when you pay out dividends, so technically, you actually don't have any reason to spend the money that's in your account, for example, it will not be taxed until you want to distribute it.

1848
02:39:18,110 --> 02:39:24,330
Nesters: So I think there's more complaining than actually just using the tools you have in Europe.

1849
02:39:30,910 --> 02:39:47,830
Nesters: Which by the way, if your dividends are on distribution, I think you wouldn't even you don't even get taxed in like, if you incorporate from France, in Latvia, and even if you stay as resident in France, because you only pay on distribution, you actually won't have won't get taxed in France,

1850
02:39:48,350 --> 02:39:50,950
Nesters: because you just don't pay the money out.

1851
02:39:51,670 --> 02:39:52,770
Nesters: There are some benefits.

1852
02:39:53,010 --> 02:40:06,830
Nico: No, if like if you like, if you're in France, like you have like your company is going to be taxed like a French company, no matter what you like, overall, like there might be some exceptions.

1853
02:40:07,070 --> 02:40:21,310
Nico: But like, even if you have a Singapore company, and you are not linked to it, like, directly, they will, they will say it's a tax evasion, and it will be taxed like a French company.

1854
02:40:21,510 --> 02:40:29,170
Nesters: So it's like, it will get taxed on, are they taxed, are they going to try to tax you as also like, employer, etc?

1855
02:40:29,350 --> 02:40:33,970
Nesters: Like, I'm trying, like, which, which parts, basically, there'll be double taxation then, right?

1856
02:40:34,370 --> 02:40:41,110
Nico: That's what's gonna... Yeah, they're going to do the corporate tax and the personal tax.

1857
02:40:42,250 --> 02:40:44,050
Nesters: Yeah, so fair enough.

1858
02:40:44,130 --> 02:40:50,750
Nesters: So that's when people start doing some yeah, weird stuff where they try to like, hide it somewhere else, right?

1859
02:40:50,830 --> 02:40:52,270
Nesters: And then completely different.

1860
02:40:52,470 --> 02:40:56,570
Nico: Yeah, that's why like, the best option is to just leave.

1861
02:40:57,130 --> 02:41:03,190
Nesters: Yeah, just leave and be resident somewhere else, like Bali, Singapore, Dubai as well.

1862
02:41:03,390 --> 02:41:05,270
Nesters: Like, those are the low tax, I guess, options.

1863
02:41:07,210 --> 02:41:08,190
Nesters: Oh, another request.

1864
02:41:08,350 --> 02:41:09,610
Nesters: Okay, I'll prove this one.

1865
02:41:10,470 --> 02:41:11,370
Nesters: Here you go.

1866
02:41:11,910 --> 02:41:15,070
Nesters: You could, or whatever you're called.

1867
02:41:15,930 --> 02:41:43,370
Pio: So I just wanted to chime in, in regards to having a company abroad, while living in Europe, for example, France and Germany, there's this thing called CFC, which is basically a law in many countries in Europe, that if a foreign company is controlled and operated from within France or Germany,

1868
02:41:43,470 --> 02:41:51,670
Pio: for example, then that company is basically considered a French or German company.

1869
02:41:53,010 --> 02:42:12,090
Pio: So if someone has a company, for example, in America, but lives in Germany, then German tax law considers it a German company, which adds to a burden if it comes to filing and paying taxes.

1870
02:42:13,190 --> 02:42:14,750
Nesters: Yeah, yeah, I've heard about it.

1871
02:42:16,050 --> 02:42:19,410
Nesters: I didn't realize how bad it gets in terms of overall taxation.

1872
02:42:20,890 --> 02:42:26,310
Nesters: And there's basically no evasion of that unless you become a resident somewhere, right?

1873
02:42:26,810 --> 02:42:31,450
Nesters: So you need to at least go to, like, let's say, Portugal and be a resident in Portugal.

1874
02:42:31,790 --> 02:42:39,590
Nesters: Although Portuguese taxes, unless you get that... I forgot the name of the program, I guess, is also not great.

1875
02:42:44,430 --> 02:43:02,370
Pio: Yeah, I think... I'm not sure about Portugal, but I'm pretty sure countries like Thailand, for example, they don't have that rule, which makes it possible to have a company in countries like Singapore, America, or even the UK or anywhere else, really,

1876
02:43:02,950 --> 02:43:12,270
Pio: as long as it's a limited company that allows you to just pay yourself whenever you feel like it.

1877
02:43:12,290 --> 02:43:21,110
Pio: But you can control it from Thailand without Thai tax office thinking that it's a Thai company, basically.

1878
02:43:21,810 --> 02:43:30,410
Nesters: Yeah, I mean, that makes sense why there's so much complaining in Europe, because France, Germany are actually one of the... basically the largest countries in Europe.

1879
02:43:30,410 --> 02:43:33,630
Nesters: So they will also be overrepresented in the complaining.

1880
02:43:34,430 --> 02:43:40,330
Nesters: Because I know that in, like, Eastern European countries, that rule doesn't necessarily apply everywhere.

1881
02:43:41,490 --> 02:43:50,250
Nesters: And it's actually way more lax, even if they have something sort of similar, they don't necessarily enforce it.

1882
02:43:50,590 --> 02:43:53,670
Nesters: So there's a little bit more lax in that sense.

1883
02:43:55,070 --> 02:43:56,110
Nesters: And the taxes are better.

1884
02:43:56,810 --> 02:43:58,810
Nesters: Okay, I'm going to approve another speaker.

1885
02:43:58,810 --> 02:44:03,890
Nesters: All right, Maxime, here you go.

1886
02:44:06,270 --> 02:44:07,330
MaximeB: Hello, Yappers.

1887
02:44:07,890 --> 02:44:12,890
MaximeB: So quick question, I wanted to come back on the translation that you mentioned, because I think it's super interesting.

1888
02:44:13,390 --> 02:44:15,190
MaximeB: And a question for Nico.

1889
02:44:15,950 --> 02:44:20,810
MaximeB: You mentioned you run ads for your Veterinian app on other countries.

1890
02:44:21,130 --> 02:44:23,630
MaximeB: So you just translated basically the landing page.

1891
02:44:23,730 --> 02:44:26,430
MaximeB: But the app, is it still in English?

1892
02:44:26,490 --> 02:44:33,490
MaximeB: Because I guess you don't translate inside the app in like so many languages, when you don't know yet which market will pick up.

1893
02:44:34,150 --> 02:44:39,150
MaximeB: And so the question is that, if the landing page only is translated, do you still feel it's efficient?

1894
02:44:42,250 --> 02:44:47,110
Nico: I actually didn't translate the ads or the landing page, I was just targeting the other countries.

1895
02:44:47,290 --> 02:44:57,630
Nico: Because even if, you know, lots of people in the country prefer to have the app in local language, there is still some audience that don't really care.

1896
02:44:57,850 --> 02:45:00,010
Nico: And you know, they're used to tools in English.

1897
02:45:01,370 --> 02:45:13,610
Nico: But from what I heard from Daniel of Headshot Pro, having an option to translate didn't make much difference for them.

1898
02:45:14,610 --> 02:45:27,650
Nico: So like, if I think it works, if you really make an app for the market versus translating versus like just translating, that needs to be tested, of course.

1899
02:45:27,790 --> 02:45:33,670
Nico: But that's at least what he got from the translation option.

1900
02:45:34,490 --> 02:45:42,370
Nico: But yeah, I think if I were to do it, I would do an app specifically for other markets, unless I already have something proven.

1901
02:45:42,510 --> 02:45:46,610
Nico: And then I just want to try to expand to other markets.

1902
02:45:46,930 --> 02:45:51,610
Nico: And then yeah, you just translate whatever language converts the best.

1903
02:45:53,450 --> 02:45:54,170
MaximeB: Alright, interesting.

1904
02:45:54,490 --> 02:46:08,670
MaximeB: So basically, if your SaaS is only in English, it's not necessarily like useful to just translate the selling landing page into other language, because anyway, the people they will be facing like English in the SaaS, so they will not convert it ultimately.

1905
02:46:10,150 --> 02:46:13,330
Nico: I mean, I think it's still worth a try.

1906
02:46:13,650 --> 02:46:22,630
Nico: But for like for Torch Notes, for example, I had lots of people, like the apps support multiple languages, but it was only in English.

1907
02:46:22,850 --> 02:46:25,530
Nico: So for me, it wasn't a big problem.

1908
02:46:26,210 --> 02:46:36,670
Nico: But then for example, you have Romain, I think his last name is DeWolf, he's making like he had an app similar to Torch Notes, but for lawyers.

1909
02:46:37,130 --> 02:46:47,110
Nico: And in Switzerland, there's like really, really niche down and it works really well for him like his banking, because he focused on only this specific like sub market.

1910
02:46:47,270 --> 02:46:52,230
Nico: So it's more about the positioning than the actual translation, I think.

1911
02:46:53,070 --> 02:47:13,110
Nesters: Yeah, I think that's a nice point that in Europe, you could actually launch a product to even the one smaller country and do really well business wise, because you're actually niching down to solve a specific need where no one else is going into that very specific niche down solution.

1912
02:47:13,450 --> 02:47:16,310
Nesters: So you're like lowering your scale, but you're increasing the value.

1913
02:47:18,710 --> 02:47:20,750
Nico: Yeah, that's pretty much that.

1914
02:47:21,730 --> 02:47:27,150
Nesters: Yeah, that's considered that like in Europe, that's still an option, because we don't find it fancy.

1915
02:47:27,350 --> 02:47:36,110
Nesters: And it's not very marketable to your maybe English audience that you want to have on like X, for example, but it's actually still a really good option.

1916
02:47:36,190 --> 02:47:42,510
Nesters: Like I even now like have automated now my tax reports, VAT tax reports.

1917
02:47:43,730 --> 02:47:48,670
Nesters: And I think that I might even be able to bring a local service for that.

1918
02:47:48,790 --> 02:47:55,930
Nesters: It's basically like AI automated partial accountant for you, you know, because it could actually do the tax reports for you.

1919
02:47:56,090 --> 02:48:01,630
Nesters: And that would apply to only one country right now, but potentially someone else could do it for their country.

1920
02:48:01,630 --> 02:48:12,210
Nesters: If it works, I use Gemini 2.5, which does really good OCR for the like receipts, PDFs, so it can extract data, it can prepare like a spreadsheet for it.

1921
02:48:12,250 --> 02:48:26,430
Nesters: And then you can just like set up the report, which could even automate the report setting up in the tax agency website actually by using like an agent actually fills in the data for you based on the data.

1922
02:48:26,710 --> 02:48:28,410
Nesters: But there's a lot of options.

1923
02:48:28,750 --> 02:48:34,570
Nesters: I actually realized I don't really need an accountant that much that I played with it myself.

1924
02:48:43,990 --> 02:48:46,930
Nesters: Yeah, I guess if we're not... no one's speaking.

1925
02:48:47,950 --> 02:48:53,270
Nesters: Niko, if you're here, I have one thing that I noticed in SmallBets chat.

1926
02:48:53,490 --> 02:49:00,010
Nesters: Dago actually, after our YAP actually, Dago joined SmallBets as a more active member.

1927
02:49:01,430 --> 02:49:11,530
Nesters: Obviously, Daniel had provided him because he did a lesson for SmallBets like a year or two ago about the Twitter growth based on his course.

1928
02:49:11,770 --> 02:49:18,950
Nesters: And he was actually a member already, get the free access from Daniel, but he actually joined and started like discussing things.

1929
02:49:19,050 --> 02:49:35,010
Nesters: He actually mentioned that he's a little bit disappointed that you kind of gave up on your A-B testing app, because it's actually needed, but it needs the education and that basically people often give up on problems because they don't get the short term return.

1930
02:49:35,590 --> 02:49:45,630
Nesters: And that's his vision part of like making good products and that sometimes they're not fast in terms of getting to sales or not as profitable directly.

1931
02:49:47,150 --> 02:49:48,610
Nesters: Any comment on that?

1932
02:49:48,790 --> 02:50:05,850
Nesters: Do you like... do you even consider like sometimes people be like telling people like, yeah, maybe you don't convert as fast, but if you know there is a need for that, because you use it yourself, then maybe you can just do slower type of marketing, reaching out to people directly,

1933
02:50:06,010 --> 02:50:09,450
Nesters: trying to get, you know, for B2B, I think that's reasonable, actually.

1934
02:50:11,210 --> 02:50:11,510
Nico: Yeah.

1935
02:50:12,050 --> 02:50:15,830
Nico: So I haven't like gave up on it properly speaking.

1936
02:50:15,930 --> 02:50:18,950
Nico: It's just, I'm still like working on it.

1937
02:50:19,030 --> 02:50:28,590
Nico: Like I remade the landing page like last week, for example, but it's more about like, how do you say that?

1938
02:50:28,930 --> 02:50:34,770
Nico: I know it's not going to be something like talk notes that is going to, you know, grow really fast, etc.

1939
02:50:35,650 --> 02:50:45,670
Nico: This is more like, because the problem with education is that it's really hard and not cost effective to do.

1940
02:50:45,810 --> 02:51:00,190
Nico: It's like, and this is one of the, you know, main rules in like marketing and advertising is just like education is for like government or like big, like it doesn't, it's not something that you can do on your own.

1941
02:51:01,770 --> 02:51:11,110
Nico: Like, you know, if there is like existing demand, then you can, what do you say that like, channel it into your product.

1942
02:51:12,290 --> 02:51:20,210
Nico: So for example, you know, people want to get more traffic, then you can talk about SEO and then oh, that makes sense.

1943
02:51:20,310 --> 02:51:23,550
Nico: But doing conversion rate optimization, etc.

1944
02:51:23,730 --> 02:51:35,890
Nico: like that would require a lot of work in the sense that first, it's for really subset of audience, if we focus on indie makers at least.

1945
02:51:37,670 --> 02:51:45,730
Nico: And then yeah, you would need to have like examples, you know, of people who got successful after doing A-B testing.

1946
02:51:45,950 --> 02:51:48,690
Nico: Well, I mean, there is Danny, but he doesn't talk much about it.

1947
02:51:49,050 --> 02:51:51,710
Nico: But he's like constantly optimizing his landing page.

1948
02:51:53,550 --> 02:52:00,010
Nico: So it's just, it's something that's like really hard to like education is something really hard to do.

1949
02:52:00,070 --> 02:52:09,210
Nico: Not education in the sense that you need to educate users on your product, but more about like why it's important, etc.

1950
02:52:09,490 --> 02:52:20,030
Nico: That like that takes much, like it's not something you can do like in just like, you know, with a few Twitter posts or with a landing page, it just takes it's like a long term thing.

1951
02:52:20,170 --> 02:52:29,170
Nico: So it's and most people I've talked to, they don't really care, you know, and it's pointless to fight against that.

1952
02:52:29,210 --> 02:52:36,850
Nico: Like, like, I got on calls with lots of people actually from like, you know, Twitter, and I was curious on how they do conversion rate optimization.

1953
02:52:36,850 --> 02:52:43,850
Nico: And they just don't really care about A-B testing is just if they want to make a change, they do it.

1954
02:52:43,890 --> 02:52:47,850
Nico: And yeah, so that would take lots of work to make them switch his mindset.

1955
02:52:48,070 --> 02:52:54,470
Nico: And it's, yeah, it's, it's not a very, I would say efficient use of my time, I think.

1956
02:52:55,190 --> 02:52:56,290
Nesters: So yeah, I completely agree.

1957
02:52:56,390 --> 02:53:08,110
Nesters: Actually, I think people come to that point where they get that realization why it's important only when they actually already are technically doing and they get in a situation where it becomes important.

1958
02:53:08,590 --> 02:53:21,630
Nesters: Like, it's, it's very hard to, like, convince them other otherwise, even if they would benefit from it, like, it's hard for them to get that, that moment like that click happen in their brain.

1959
02:53:21,690 --> 02:53:38,290
Nesters: We're like, Oh, wow, if because I changed this thing, and the conversion rate suddenly doubled, for example, what if I could test different things at the same time, you know, like, like, to get to that point, it's, it's a long, long journey, usually, for a person who's just like vibing,

1960
02:53:38,410 --> 02:53:41,350
Nesters: basically, with the marketing and the landing pages.

1961
02:53:42,330 --> 02:53:49,870
Nesters: I kind of feel like the Indie space generally has been like more like a vibe marketing, you know, like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

1962
02:53:51,070 --> 02:53:51,510
Nico: Yeah.

1963
02:53:51,710 --> 02:53:52,950
Nico: So it's, yeah.

1964
02:53:53,850 --> 02:53:59,770
Nico: But that's why actually the landing page I saw, at first, that was my angle for for this app for tested.

1965
02:54:00,590 --> 02:54:04,210
Nico: If you look at the old landing page, it was all about that, like, why you should do it, etc.

1966
02:54:04,670 --> 02:54:11,410
Nico: But now I switched it to focus more on, like marketers, because they already know A-B testing, etc.

1967
02:54:11,550 --> 02:54:16,390
Nico: So they don't need to be convinced, they just need to know if the app has a feature they want.

1968
02:54:16,830 --> 02:54:22,570
Nico: So I actually completely changed the landing page, like, I think, last week or two weeks ago, I don't know.

1969
02:54:23,750 --> 02:54:26,370
Nico: And I'm going to, you know, try to focus more on that.

1970
02:54:27,310 --> 02:54:28,750
Nico: And I'm still working on it.

1971
02:54:28,770 --> 02:54:33,350
Nico: It's just that I don't post much on Twitter about it, because it's not the audience.

1972
02:54:33,610 --> 02:54:35,210
Nico: So I haven't given up on it.

1973
02:54:35,670 --> 02:54:39,310
Nico: It's just, it's not a Twitter project.

1974
02:54:39,410 --> 02:54:41,170
Nico: And it's just very slow overall.

1975
02:54:42,970 --> 02:54:46,910
Nesters: Yeah, I think, I think I'll give your product a try for next JS.

1976
02:54:47,130 --> 02:54:48,410
Nesters: I'll see what's happening.

1977
02:54:48,650 --> 02:54:56,210
Nesters: And because I'm mostly from ecommerce, I also mostly focused on SEO and CRO, conversion rate optimization.

1978
02:54:56,450 --> 02:55:04,330
Nesters: So I might actually have like a good sense for like, how I would feel, maybe even how I would approach it from a SEO perspective.

1979
02:55:05,390 --> 02:55:06,670
Nico: Yeah, maybe.

1980
02:55:06,850 --> 02:55:07,310
Nico: Yeah, sure.

1981
02:55:09,170 --> 02:55:11,170
Nico: And we're working lots of things.

1982
02:55:11,370 --> 02:55:18,570
Nico: So there might be like, the onboarding right now might be a bit like slightly confusing, but... Yeah, I get it.

1983
02:55:19,290 --> 02:55:24,510
Nesters: I'll just think about it from a perspective of like, as a user, like, does it make sense?

1984
02:55:24,650 --> 02:55:29,490
Nesters: Like what, maybe I'll check also what the SEO space looks like for it.

1985
02:55:30,210 --> 02:55:30,230
Daniel: Yeah.

1986
02:55:32,030 --> 02:55:37,890
Nesters: Yeah, so that would, that would be, that'll be something I actually want to try myself as well.

1987
02:55:38,190 --> 02:55:41,290
Nesters: I looked at your product before, but I was not really launching anything.

1988
02:55:41,290 --> 02:55:47,590
Nesters: But now I'm actually closer to things where I have a little bit more things I kind of want to launch soon.

1989
02:55:47,810 --> 02:55:53,110
Nesters: So I would also, and if I'm white coding, I'm most likely having some next JS projects.

1990
02:55:53,450 --> 02:55:58,700
Nesters: So yeah, it'll be nice to actually check if I can use your tool as well.

1991
02:55:59,710 --> 02:56:00,210
Nico: Yeah.

1992
02:56:00,770 --> 02:56:02,730
Nico: Yeah, no, but for sure.

1993
02:56:03,110 --> 02:56:05,170
Nico: I will, I will DM you after.

1994
02:56:06,950 --> 02:56:10,270
Nesters: Anyone else want to ask a question?

1995
02:56:10,390 --> 02:56:23,070
Nesters: I mean, we discussed most of, like we discussed actually almost everything we, I even want to, because we had an incredibly long, almost three hours, by the way, this is our longest one is actually two hours, 59 minutes.

1996
02:56:23,270 --> 02:56:30,810
Nesters: So we might just go for the, I think it's maybe, maybe I'm wrong, but I think it was two hours, 59 minutes, or maybe it was past three hours.

1997
02:56:30,910 --> 02:56:36,690
Nesters: We can just go for the three hour mark, but yeah, yeah, I actually can check.

1998
02:56:37,170 --> 02:56:39,650
Nesters: Yeah, I believe it was two hours, 59 minutes.

1999
02:56:39,650 --> 02:56:44,050
Nesters: So we're almost, almost the longest, almost the longest yap.

2000
02:56:44,250 --> 02:56:44,430
Nesters: Yeah.

2001
02:56:46,070 --> 02:56:47,270
Nesters: Yeah, it was a good, yeah.

2002
02:56:47,310 --> 02:56:57,610
Nesters: And I actually enjoyed I think we discussed a lot of things that are, so a lot of things that people don't normally talk about as much, the ads and the funnels.

2003
02:56:58,110 --> 02:57:07,310
Nesters: They said, Francesco, we actually used to not run this weekly yap, but we used to run spaces also a lot with the smallpix audience, community audience.

2004
02:57:07,650 --> 02:57:15,370
Nesters: And it was that when we had a talk about ads, like as a topic, it was like, yeah, we're just going to talk about ads.

2005
02:57:15,730 --> 02:57:18,930
Nesters: We had, at some point we just were just us.

2006
02:57:19,010 --> 02:57:20,730
Nesters: There were no listeners, no one joined.

2007
02:57:20,890 --> 02:57:25,810
Nesters: Otherwise we would at least have like 10 people, maybe like eight people, like at least actively listening.

2008
02:57:26,130 --> 02:57:33,350
Nesters: And that one, like about ads, like there were times where just two of us, no one else was listening because the topic just didn't resonate.

2009
02:57:33,710 --> 02:57:50,690
Nesters: And after, afterwards, later that Daniel started to recommend Vasalo and Daniel Vasalo started recommending Francesco to some people in the space, including Hassan, who's selling like books and courses.

2010
02:57:51,250 --> 02:57:55,490
Nesters: And, and suddenly they had some success with also Francesco's help.

2011
02:57:55,610 --> 02:58:04,550
Nesters: And I noticed that more people became a little bit more interested with ads because they actually like some successful, relatively successful people in the space started using them.

2012
02:58:04,790 --> 02:58:07,750
Nesters: So I see that there is a little bit of a growing interest for that.

2013
02:58:07,790 --> 02:58:16,390
Nesters: And your course obviously helped a little bit, but I also noticed people bought your course and sometimes they just don't commit, even if they go through the course, they don't commit to actually running the ads.

2014
02:58:18,130 --> 02:58:18,610
Nico: Yeah.

2015
02:58:19,650 --> 02:58:35,690
Nico: It's like, I think, so the reason why I launched it is, so again, I didn't plan to launch a course or anything, but then I started seeing people on, on Twitter asking like, Hey, cause I started posting about my results with ads on talk notes.

2016
02:58:36,410 --> 02:58:41,830
Nico: And then I saw people were asking, Hey, anyone got like a good course recommendation or something?

2017
02:58:41,930 --> 02:58:54,370
Nico: So like, I might as well, you know, make something like, because they're going to get some Udemy course and it's probably not going to be adapted for SaaS anyway, because there is pretty much nothing about SaaS available.

2018
02:58:54,490 --> 02:58:57,450
Nico: Like no one made content about ads for SaaS.

2019
02:58:58,370 --> 02:59:00,950
Nico: So yeah, I was like, okay, I might as well just try.

2020
02:59:01,850 --> 02:59:04,570
Nico: And, and yeah, I mean, it worked great.

2021
02:59:04,570 --> 02:59:13,630
Nico: Like lots of people got it, but I think like I got really positive feedback from people who actually used it and launched, et cetera.

2022
02:59:13,710 --> 02:59:18,410
Nico: But I know that lots of people just bought it, you know, like just in case.

2023
02:59:18,950 --> 02:59:30,710
Nico: And I think that will like for many like one-time purchase products or info products, there is this, you know, Oh, if I need it, I will have it thing.

2024
02:59:30,950 --> 02:59:36,870
Nico: So I think that's some like, you don't get that with subscriptions because you pay every month.

2025
02:59:37,030 --> 02:59:44,270
Nico: So it's lots of friction, but for one-time products, then yeah, I think lots of people like don't really use it.

2026
02:59:44,330 --> 02:59:46,930
Nico: They just, I have it available.

2027
02:59:47,170 --> 02:59:50,810
Nico: And if one day I need it, then I can just, I can just use that.

2028
02:59:52,790 --> 02:59:53,190
Nesters: Yeah.

2029
02:59:53,390 --> 02:59:58,170
Nesters: And that is like a half an hour or longer, like Daniel obviously disappeared.

2030
02:59:58,630 --> 03:00:03,810
Nesters: I don't know if he fell asleep on the call or something because in the US, so it's...

2031
03:00:04,390 --> 03:00:19,690
Nesters: I don't know, but Vlad has also a question, but I agree that it was actually really nice that obviously you did launch the course and at least it also gets the conversation going about ads as well.

2032
03:00:19,710 --> 03:00:28,650
Nesters: Even if you don't necessarily, you know, make direct progress sometimes for people, like they're, at least they're interested, you know, that now they're discussing as well.

2033
03:00:30,970 --> 03:00:31,070
Nico: Yeah.

2034
03:00:31,490 --> 03:00:33,030
Nico: And so I think it's...

2035
03:00:33,030 --> 03:00:47,590
Nesters: And it's nice, as I wanted to mention, it's also a nice way that for you, obviously, there's a thank you economy, but the term by Gary Vaynerchuk that people want to appreciate for the advice you've given to people and the inspiration they sometimes just want to buy the course to,

2036
03:00:47,750 --> 03:00:50,150
Nesters: you know, to give the money, basically just give money.

2037
03:00:50,870 --> 03:01:01,230
Nesters: It's nice for people without the should consider creating ways for people to thank you as well, where you provide value, but they can also just say thanks.

2038
03:01:03,070 --> 03:01:04,070
Nico: Yeah, no, for sure.

2039
03:01:05,030 --> 03:01:09,550
Nico: But yeah, I mean, I would be happy if everyone used it and actually got results.

2040
03:01:09,870 --> 03:01:14,330
Nico: But yeah, the truth is, I think lots of people just get it just in case.

2041
03:01:15,170 --> 03:01:16,150
Nesters: No, I mean, yeah.

2042
03:01:16,450 --> 03:01:19,710
Nesters: And Vlad, you have, you can speak now.

2043
03:01:20,510 --> 03:01:20,830
Vlad: Thank you.

2044
03:01:20,850 --> 03:01:21,930
Vlad: I always have a question.

2045
03:01:22,670 --> 03:01:25,010
Vlad: I'm sorry, I missed a lot of this.

2046
03:01:25,170 --> 03:01:25,170
Yeah.

2047
03:01:26,330 --> 03:01:31,930
Vlad: So I would like to know, I've been on the internet for 30 years now.

2048
03:01:32,010 --> 03:01:39,910
Vlad: And I've seen a change a lot from the days of WinRar and Winamp and all those little pieces of software.

2049
03:01:40,070 --> 03:01:42,950
Vlad: Nowadays, we have all sorts of tools.

2050
03:01:43,190 --> 03:01:55,810
Vlad: And it seems like we've gone from the time of the neckbeards to the time of the influencers or performers where everyone is, distribution is king and everyone's trying to get an audience.

2051
03:01:56,830 --> 03:02:04,130
Vlad: So earlier in the conversation, you were talking how there seems like there's more French people.

2052
03:02:05,170 --> 03:02:08,790
Vlad: And I would add, are there any Japanese indie hackers?

2053
03:02:09,050 --> 03:02:14,070
Vlad: Are there any, I don't know, Indian indie hackers that are famous or as famous?

2054
03:02:15,050 --> 03:02:27,870
Vlad: How do you view this transition from product focused or utility focused to more personality, storytelling, entertainment focused?

2055
03:02:31,150 --> 03:02:37,830
Nico: I think it comes down to how saturated the market is.

2056
03:02:38,010 --> 03:02:52,030
Nico: Because if you have only one hot dog stand and you have a whole city who is hungry, then no one is going to care about marketing stories.

2057
03:02:52,130 --> 03:02:53,290
Nico: They just want to eat.

2058
03:02:54,610 --> 03:02:58,330
Nico: But more and more people are starting with their software.

2059
03:02:58,510 --> 03:03:01,950
Nico: So I think customers have more options.

2060
03:03:02,010 --> 03:03:15,250
Nico: So if you give them the choice between one with a learning page that is not clear at all versus one where the learning page is really well crafted, like the messaging is really on point, then they're going to choose the one with messaging on point.

2061
03:03:15,410 --> 03:03:24,850
Nico: And I think, yeah, it's just come down to the, I don't know how you call that, like market maturity or saturation or whatever.

2062
03:03:24,990 --> 03:03:27,850
Nico: But it's just that customers have more options.

2063
03:03:28,350 --> 03:03:34,350
Nico: So yeah, it's more about giving, how do you say that?

2064
03:03:35,690 --> 03:03:39,790
Nico: Yeah, giving customers options for what they care about.

2065
03:03:40,050 --> 03:03:47,090
Nico: So, you know, maybe some like, for example, ship fast, like there are thousands of boilerplates.

2066
03:03:47,450 --> 03:03:57,510
Nico: Some are like free and stuff, but people choose to buy ship fast because they know Mark, they trust Mark and they associate the success with ship fast.

2067
03:03:57,630 --> 03:04:13,190
Nico: So it's more, yeah, it's more about less focusing on the actual product and more how well you can explain why people should use yours versus someone else.

2068
03:04:13,350 --> 03:04:16,530
Nico: I think, I don't know if that answers the question.

2069
03:04:19,330 --> 03:04:32,030
Vlad: Yeah, of course it makes sense that the saturation of the market will drive other factors that you can distinguish yourself on, not just the software, but how good of a story you can tell.

2070
03:04:33,130 --> 03:04:57,950
Vlad: I'm just wondering if this is, the early web felt very authentic and nowadays a lot of people are performing in a way to an audience or at all times, everything that you do throughout the day or that you think throughout the day, you will think, oh, how can I package this as a product or how can I post this in a way that will drive more sales sometimes?

2071
03:04:58,690 --> 03:05:18,390
Vlad: Obviously not everyone, there's a lot of people who are genuinely authentic and are just sharing their journey, but it's hard to distinguish as a consumer of these apps who is authentic and who is just trying to sell their stuff.

2072
03:05:20,290 --> 03:05:26,110
Nesters: As a first impression, obviously, because over time you might discover whether they're authentic or not.

2073
03:05:26,310 --> 03:05:26,310
Yeah.

2074
03:05:28,210 --> 03:05:41,430
Nico: I mean, yeah, I think eventually, like, I don't know, like Mark, for example, he's like the way he posts on Twitter is the same as he's, you know, he just posts whatever he thinks of or anything.

2075
03:05:41,590 --> 03:05:49,510
Nico: But I think it just really depends on the people, but eventually you will, like you will see through probably.

2076
03:05:49,690 --> 03:05:50,050
Nico: I don't know.

2077
03:05:50,210 --> 03:05:53,370
Nico: I don't really have an answer to that.

2078
03:05:55,010 --> 03:06:03,250
Nico: But I think it's same as like everything, like, you know, YouTube, like when YouTube started, it was just, you know, people posting random stuff.

2079
03:06:03,310 --> 03:06:07,010
Nico: And now it's really like performative, like same, the same thing, basically.

2080
03:06:07,010 --> 03:06:11,050
Nico: It's like, you have to do like Mr. B stuff to really get noticed.

2081
03:06:11,430 --> 03:06:15,410
Nico: So I think it's just, it's just how it is.

2082
03:06:15,550 --> 03:06:24,930
Nico: And then you always see, you know, those, like YouTubers or whatever, eventually they get some drama going on because people realize that they are not who they pretend to be.

2083
03:06:25,110 --> 03:06:26,950
Nico: And so I guess that's probably the same.

2084
03:06:27,050 --> 03:06:27,550
Nico: I don't know.

2085
03:06:27,650 --> 03:06:30,190
Nico: I don't have a better answer than that.

2086
03:06:31,890 --> 03:06:35,370
Vlad: I would just really like, I'm fascinated with Japanese culture.

2087
03:06:35,710 --> 03:06:45,190
Vlad: And I would really like to see more, let's say, Japanese style entrepreneurship in the entrepreneurship, but it's so isolated.

2088
03:06:45,790 --> 03:06:55,250
Vlad: And it's an earlier point where you said, translating websites and products between different markets is an interesting feature.

2089
03:06:55,390 --> 03:06:57,810
Vlad: But Japan is such a unique place.

2090
03:06:58,430 --> 03:07:00,490
Vlad: They have everything is Japanese there.

2091
03:07:01,170 --> 03:07:11,710
Nesters: I think they have some product, like, I think there's a little bit more people from Japan simply being into, like, all the type of manga art, etc.

2092
03:07:11,930 --> 03:07:22,710
Nesters: Like, I think that some of the indie type of like, you would consider indies in Japan are simply focused on different, basically, different aspects of the markets.

2093
03:07:22,950 --> 03:07:29,370
Nesters: You don't see them in the SaaS as much maybe, but you see them in art, for example, for all that content.

2094
03:07:29,470 --> 03:07:30,470
Nesters: And the video games as well.

2095
03:07:30,570 --> 03:07:31,870
Nesters: There's certain video games as well.

2096
03:07:32,550 --> 03:07:33,550
Vlad: You're probably right.

2097
03:07:34,090 --> 03:07:41,110
Vlad: One of my tools has, like, 18% users in Japan, and all of their language is set to Japanese.

2098
03:07:41,630 --> 03:07:47,190
Vlad: So 18% is a lot of over-representation based on population.

2099
03:07:48,350 --> 03:07:49,130
Vlad: It's an image.

2100
03:07:49,550 --> 03:07:53,550
Vlad: So a lot of them are probably just downloading manga and stuff like that.

2101
03:07:54,730 --> 03:08:07,350
Nesters: I think with that local market change and culture, I think Mike also wants to add something on this, but I think that market, local market, defines basically also what kind of business you're making.

2102
03:08:07,830 --> 03:08:18,350
Mike: Yeah, there is a huge space for people in Korea and Japan working on products that are connected to Kakao and LINE.

2103
03:08:19,010 --> 03:08:25,570
Mike: So a lot of people are just making stickers or chatbots or, like, booking services and stuff like that.

2104
03:08:25,710 --> 03:08:35,770
Mike: But you're never gonna hear about them because you're not the user, and there isn't really that much on the English-speaking internet for those.

2105
03:08:43,080 --> 03:08:43,520
Nesters: Yeah.

2106
03:08:47,680 --> 03:08:52,980
Nesters: Okay, so I guess we're starting to slowly become quieter.

2107
03:08:54,260 --> 03:08:58,140
Nesters: We should probably wrap it up unless someone else has a question.

2108
03:09:05,010 --> 03:09:10,430
Nesters: By the way, for anyone also listening, this space is being recorded.

2109
03:09:10,910 --> 03:09:16,850
Nesters: You can always listen to the space itself as a recording.

2110
03:09:17,470 --> 03:09:24,270
Nesters: There will be a recording as an audio on theweeklyapp.com after a couple hours.

2111
03:09:24,430 --> 03:09:29,830
Nesters: I'll add it there as well, and there'll be a transcript as well in case you are too lazy to listen and want to.

2112
03:09:31,710 --> 03:09:37,850
Nesters: Obviously with timestamps, so you can also choose to get a transcript and then find the spot which you want to listen to.

2113
03:09:38,130 --> 03:09:39,090
Nesters: So you can do that.

2114
03:09:39,210 --> 03:09:42,170
Nesters: That will be on the website as well in a few hours.

2115
03:09:44,230 --> 03:09:45,890
Nesters: Oh yeah, Pio, you have a question?

2116
03:09:46,410 --> 03:09:47,490
Nesters: Is that why you're raising hand?

2117
03:09:48,170 --> 03:10:01,070
Pio: So yeah, just wanted to talk about, in regards to authenticity that was just mentioned, and also promoting and marketing your product.

2118
03:10:01,810 --> 03:10:23,670
Pio: We all know that Twitter is a great marketing tool, and we all try to, maybe not all of us, but many people try to build an audience so they can get some additional views basically on their products and promote it that way.

2119
03:10:23,670 --> 03:10:33,970
Pio: However, some of our products might be in a completely different niche than what we use X for.

2120
03:10:34,550 --> 03:10:39,870
Pio: And I guess I wanted to ask how other people see this?

2121
03:10:40,730 --> 03:10:51,630
Pio: How can we promote our product to a completely different niche while still being authentic to ourselves basically?

2122
03:10:54,250 --> 03:11:01,990
Nico: I mean, I think you don't have to post in the indie making community.

2123
03:11:02,230 --> 03:11:03,710
Nico: I think there are two things.

2124
03:11:04,890 --> 03:11:21,810
Nico: I think one of the main thing I get from the community is I met really good, nice people from the community I would never have been able to meet if I didn't build in public, for example, I don't know, like Danny, Mark.

2125
03:11:22,030 --> 03:11:26,450
Nico: If I wasn't posting what I was doing, I would never have met them.

2126
03:11:27,710 --> 03:11:37,150
Nico: And so there is this, and then it doesn't require that your audience is in the indie maker community.

2127
03:11:37,510 --> 03:11:39,130
Nico: You just post whatever you do.

2128
03:11:40,190 --> 03:11:44,210
Nico: But yeah, if you want to find customers, then it's different.

2129
03:11:45,930 --> 03:11:53,830
Nico: And honestly, I think Twitter is not always the best place to find customers.

2130
03:11:55,250 --> 03:12:10,070
Nico: I think it was Danny Postma from Headshot Pro, he mentioned a few times, for example, for him, people coming from Twitter, they have the lowest conversion rate, the lowest revenue per user, etc.

2131
03:12:10,690 --> 03:12:13,350
Nico: versus LinkedIn, for example.

2132
03:12:13,470 --> 03:12:21,630
Nico: So it's like, yeah, it really depends on what your goal is, but your audience is not necessarily on Twitter.

2133
03:12:21,850 --> 03:12:31,010
Nico: And if they are, they might not be, they're probably like, yeah, not the same as the people who buy, you know, your app.

2134
03:12:31,090 --> 03:12:49,070
Nico: So like, yeah, it's just a thing about figuring out where your actual buying audience hangout and just then going there and you can still post on Twitter, in the community, like build a public community, but without trying to sell anything, it's just to meet people,

2135
03:12:49,210 --> 03:12:49,410
Nico: etc.

2136
03:12:51,850 --> 03:13:01,610
Pio: Okay, and would you say, let's say, we use other channels, like you mentioned LinkedIn, to do marketing there?

2137
03:13:02,110 --> 03:13:06,790
Pio: Would you just create like, would you act like a different persona?

2138
03:13:07,010 --> 03:13:16,570
Pio: Would you just be yourself, obviously yourself, that person on LinkedIn would be slightly different than what you are on X, because you, you're like contacting different people.

2139
03:13:16,570 --> 03:13:19,730
Pio: And that requires a different approach.

2140
03:13:20,450 --> 03:13:28,390
Pio: I guess there's this like, this dissociation between two channels, and what you are doing on both channels.

2141
03:13:30,590 --> 03:13:44,470
Nico: Yeah, I mean, you have to adapt to each other, like you're not going to, I don't know, if you go to like a professional conference, you're not going to be the same as you are on like Reddit, for example, you know, you're going to act different because there are like,

2142
03:13:44,830 --> 03:13:48,290
Nico: rules, like implicit rules in the platform you use.

2143
03:13:48,470 --> 03:13:50,450
Nico: So yeah, you have to adapt to those, obviously.

2144
03:13:51,850 --> 03:13:55,470
Nico: It doesn't mean you're not authentic or anything.

2145
03:13:55,570 --> 03:13:58,110
Nico: It's just, you know, you just adapt to the rules.

2146
03:13:58,330 --> 03:14:00,050
Nico: That's just how it is.

2147
03:14:11,680 --> 03:14:17,100
Nesters: Yeah, I don't really have much to add to this, I guess, right now.

2148
03:14:17,240 --> 03:14:25,620
Nesters: It's just because as time passes, you're like, yeah, getting like, I don't know, like just need to drink more and more water.

2149
03:14:26,760 --> 03:14:31,520
Nesters: And also like, because it's an early morning yap for me.

2150
03:14:31,580 --> 03:14:37,480
Nesters: So I had to actually kind of get myself to wake up earlier, because I'm not actually a super early morning person.

2151
03:14:37,720 --> 03:14:42,940
Nesters: I wake up very late sometimes, because I don't have, you know, a boss as well.

2152
03:14:43,060 --> 03:14:44,500
Nesters: So I don't really need to worry about it.

2153
03:14:44,540 --> 03:14:48,560
Nesters: I mean, I have kids, I mean, my daughter, so that sometimes wakes me up.

2154
03:14:49,140 --> 03:14:56,000
Nesters: But yeah, I still enjoy my own schedule, you know.

2155
03:14:58,380 --> 03:15:08,860
Nesters: I noticed now that because I woke up early, that after a few hours, like I start noticing, like, yeah, I'm definitely not fully woken up.

2156
03:15:10,440 --> 03:15:16,020
Nico: I'm introvert, so like, that's driving me like, yeah, pretty quickly.

2157
03:15:16,760 --> 03:15:17,000
Nico: But yeah.

2158
03:15:17,400 --> 03:15:18,120
Nesters: Yeah, I'm impressed.

2159
03:15:19,760 --> 03:15:21,500
Nesters: It's like the old monk mode, right?

2160
03:15:21,540 --> 03:15:24,860
Nesters: You're locked in, you're actually just doing one thing, you know.

2161
03:15:27,780 --> 03:15:29,700
Nesters: Yeah, it's nice what you did with this.

2162
03:15:30,020 --> 03:15:35,160
Nesters: We discussed basically all the topics we kind of plan to discuss and some extra.

2163
03:15:36,480 --> 03:15:38,920
Nesters: Do you have a comment to make, Pia, again?

2164
03:15:39,220 --> 03:15:40,380
Nesters: You have a raised hand.

2165
03:15:48,120 --> 03:15:50,380
Nesters: I don't know if you wanted to speak or not again.

2166
03:15:51,900 --> 03:15:52,740
Pio: No, sorry, sorry.

2167
03:15:53,220 --> 03:15:54,700
Nesters: Yeah, you did unmute, I guess.

2168
03:15:57,020 --> 03:15:57,980
Nesters: Oh, okay.

2169
03:15:58,920 --> 03:16:09,760
Nesters: I'm getting like, I don't know about the Spaces UX, but like for me, that emoji just showing up all the time and not leaving on my screen is like being like, oh, is someone trying to ask a question?

2170
03:16:10,740 --> 03:16:15,020
Nico: Yeah, they should have like a chat like Twitch where you can put emojis and keep them.

2171
03:16:15,020 --> 03:16:16,580
Nesters: Yeah, they have it only for video.

2172
03:16:17,120 --> 03:16:19,360
Nesters: They only have it for video live streams.

2173
03:16:19,840 --> 03:16:28,060
Nesters: And that's annoying, and we haven't even talked about it, maybe, because we use SmallBirds Community Chat for some of the members who are in the community to like ask questions or talk about it.

2174
03:16:28,180 --> 03:16:38,460
Nesters: Yeah, but we haven't even talked about it, that maybe you could do like a Chrome plugin that allows you to do a like a side chat for a space, basically.

2175
03:16:39,140 --> 03:16:49,400
Nesters: And Vlad, actually, was that you who was actually thinking about creating a plugin that could apply to any page so you could chat with anyone on the page as long as they have a plugin, for example?

2176
03:16:49,680 --> 03:16:53,280
Vlad: Yeah, I did make that, but I just don't think it reduces the friction enough.

2177
03:16:53,340 --> 03:16:58,200
Vlad: You still have to get people to install the plugin to be able to chat on that page.

2178
03:16:58,240 --> 03:17:01,060
Vlad: I just don't see it as less friction in any way.

2179
03:17:01,940 --> 03:17:07,160
Nesters: There's definitely friction, but I think there's some benefit to sometimes having it, yeah.

2180
03:17:10,740 --> 03:17:17,180
Nesters: At least for community members, I guess it's easier to get them to install the ones who are frequently using it.

2181
03:17:17,200 --> 03:17:28,000
Nesters: But yeah, it creates a different friction point where you have like this different conversation meta in the side chat versus what's being spoken to sometimes.

2182
03:17:30,840 --> 03:17:32,480
Nesters: Yeah, I wish they do.

2183
03:17:32,580 --> 03:17:34,160
Nesters: There's a lot of bugs, by the way, with spaces.

2184
03:17:34,580 --> 03:17:38,240
Nesters: We mainly use spaces because spaces are actually nice.

2185
03:17:38,420 --> 03:17:41,720
Nesters: The audio-only format is nice that people can just join on the go.

2186
03:17:41,820 --> 03:17:43,560
Nesters: They don't need to focus on the video.

2187
03:17:44,440 --> 03:17:46,580
Nesters: And it's good for discoverability.

2188
03:17:46,740 --> 03:17:53,200
Nesters: For example, your audience today was actually bringing up quite a lot of listeners, I think, because I mostly saw different people.

2189
03:17:53,580 --> 03:17:59,260
Nesters: And I actually got the most followers from a space they have gotten.

2190
03:17:59,440 --> 03:18:00,400
Nesters: It's actually this one.

2191
03:18:01,080 --> 03:18:15,680
Nesters: And I think it's because I actually don't interact as much with the audience you have, who are also, I guess, living in perhaps Asia, Bali, etc.

2192
03:18:15,860 --> 03:18:19,080
Nesters: So I haven't interacted with the audience as much.

2193
03:18:19,580 --> 03:18:24,980
Nesters: But I think that's one thing, that's actually the reason why I also get extra followers today.

2194
03:18:25,000 --> 03:18:25,640
Daniel: Yeah, that makes sense.

2195
03:18:27,460 --> 03:18:31,600
Nesters: Yeah, but it's been... I really enjoyed the app.

2196
03:18:31,660 --> 03:18:35,760
Nesters: I think we can wrap it up in three hours and 20 minutes.

2197
03:18:37,300 --> 03:18:38,240
Nico: Yeah, it was fun.

2198
03:18:40,280 --> 03:18:44,580
Nesters: I mean, I guess you don't need to eat lunch because you only eat one meal a day now, right?

2199
03:18:45,800 --> 03:18:49,920
Nico: So I just tried today, like yesterday.

2200
03:18:50,420 --> 03:18:55,700
Nico: So I tried to eat normal lunch and I crashed out.

2201
03:18:55,960 --> 03:18:57,540
Nico: So that, you know, confirmed it.

2202
03:18:57,760 --> 03:19:04,940
Nico: Today, I tried eating just something really light, like just some yogurt and Parmigiano.

2203
03:19:06,640 --> 03:19:09,500
Nico: Actually, I think it was Max who recommended Parmigiano.

2204
03:19:11,360 --> 03:19:16,780
Nico: But yeah, just trying things and see what works for me.

2205
03:19:17,020 --> 03:19:18,540
Nico: But yeah, I'm getting hungry now.

2206
03:19:19,020 --> 03:19:25,720
Nesters: Yeah, I can go... like sometimes when I'm focused on something, I actually skip meals unintentionally.

2207
03:19:25,880 --> 03:19:27,200
Nesters: I'm just like, I need to grind it out.

2208
03:19:27,300 --> 03:19:28,080
Nesters: So I just don't eat.

2209
03:19:29,120 --> 03:19:36,620
Nesters: And I get to a point where like, I think around like 4 or 5pm, where I'm like, oh my, I have worked through the whole day without eating.

2210
03:19:36,800 --> 03:19:38,500
Nesters: And then I'm like, I'm super hungry.

2211
03:19:38,680 --> 03:19:42,140
Nesters: And actually, it's a problem where I might overeat.

2212
03:19:42,220 --> 03:19:47,580
Nesters: And then I actually have problems in the evening that I actually have trouble sleeping for example, because I just overate.

2213
03:19:48,680 --> 03:19:54,880
Nico: Yeah, I did that with James from Leave Me Alone, the email app.

2214
03:19:55,820 --> 03:19:58,100
Nico: Man, I eat like a fat pig.

2215
03:19:58,240 --> 03:20:01,100
Nico: I swear, like, just I was eating everything.

2216
03:20:01,380 --> 03:20:02,460
Nico: It's like, wow, chill.

2217
03:20:02,920 --> 03:20:03,980
Nico: You're still angry, man.

2218
03:20:04,780 --> 03:20:05,320
Nico: Yeah, yeah.

2219
03:20:06,540 --> 03:20:08,540
Nesters: It's definitely interesting to test it out.

2220
03:20:08,720 --> 03:20:08,820
Nesters: Yeah.

2221
03:20:09,500 --> 03:20:23,900
Nesters: One thing I hate about not eating is that I can't do, for example, coffee that I sometimes enjoy and even tea, like black tea, like something that I sometimes enjoy is that like, those things on an empty stomach for me is really bad.

2222
03:20:25,480 --> 03:20:30,560
Nesters: First of all, I get that the stomach gets worse, but I also get super edgy.

2223
03:20:30,900 --> 03:20:34,620
Nesters: I'm always sort of anxious in a way.

2224
03:20:34,880 --> 03:20:36,080
Nesters: It irritates me.

2225
03:20:36,520 --> 03:20:41,280
Nesters: So that's why I also like eating at least a little bit in the morning and lunchtime.

2226
03:20:41,500 --> 03:20:44,400
Nesters: I haven't eaten yet today, but still 11 for me.

2227
03:20:45,940 --> 03:20:46,680
Daniel: All good.

2228
03:20:46,680 --> 03:20:49,680
Daniel: All right.

2229
03:20:49,800 --> 03:20:51,300
Nesters: Well, it was nice.

2230
03:20:51,560 --> 03:20:53,160
Nico: Thanks for inviting me.

2231
03:20:53,480 --> 03:20:55,680
Nico: And yeah, well, it was nice.

2232
03:20:56,800 --> 03:20:58,000
Nesters: Yeah, definitely.

2233
03:20:58,340 --> 03:21:03,840
Nesters: And I'm grateful that so many people actually joined because I didn't know how it's going to go.

2234
03:21:04,080 --> 03:21:19,780
Nesters: For the US and European audience in the evening, we are, I mean, around midday US and evening Europe, we approximately know what the audience we can get with Dago, we actually did go up to like 80 people, I believe.

2235
03:21:20,260 --> 03:21:25,720
Nesters: But that was very hyped up, because he was actually like his, his comeback, basically on X.

2236
03:21:25,840 --> 03:21:28,840
Nesters: He was, he did a yap with us around that same time.

2237
03:21:29,080 --> 03:21:45,860
Nesters: So, so we had a really, we had a, we get a good yap, by the way, he actually, I think he actually motivated him a little bit to actually finally launch the product, because I said, like, it's not about like you wanting to launch the product, it's actually that other people want your platform to launch their products.

2238
03:21:46,080 --> 03:21:50,520
Nesters: So they also have deadlines, like, just because you don't ship doesn't mean other people don't need to ship.

2239
03:21:50,840 --> 03:21:56,200
Nesters: So you know, like, you kind of, kind of like, you know, blocking the other people from having a better opportunity.

2240
03:21:57,260 --> 03:21:59,280
Nesters: Yes, I think it motivated him a little bit.

2241
03:22:00,080 --> 03:22:08,640
Nesters: But yeah, for this, actually, this is a decent levy actually have about, we had like 30, 40 people, I believe, maximum joining this.

2242
03:22:08,860 --> 03:22:09,700
Nesters: And that's nice.

2243
03:22:09,700 --> 03:22:12,900
Nesters: And it wasn't going down, it was actually going up for a long time.

2244
03:22:13,260 --> 03:22:17,120
Nesters: So we had actually pretty good numbers as well on this one with a different audience.

2245
03:22:17,660 --> 03:22:29,340
Nesters: And so we might actually test it eventually, again, with some other, maybe person who's in Bali or Thailand, you know, yeah, try it again with the same time zone.

2246
03:22:29,580 --> 03:22:31,320
Nesters: So same people can join.

2247
03:22:31,480 --> 03:22:33,680
Nesters: Or maybe that could be Mark at some point.

2248
03:22:33,980 --> 03:22:34,600
Nesters: That'll be nice.

2249
03:22:35,840 --> 03:22:41,140
Nesters: Yeah, but I think he's, I think he's mostly just listening as a, like, left it as listening.

2250
03:22:41,340 --> 03:22:42,300
Nesters: So people also would join.

2251
03:22:42,540 --> 03:22:43,360
Nesters: Yeah, because it shows.

2252
03:22:43,620 --> 03:22:43,620
Yeah.

2253
03:22:44,800 --> 03:22:45,960
Nesters: But it's nice.

2254
03:22:46,780 --> 03:22:51,180
Nico: Yeah, yeah, I think he did listen for a while because he posted some stuff in our group chat.

2255
03:22:51,440 --> 03:22:51,980
Nico: But yeah.

2256
03:22:54,820 --> 03:22:55,540
Nesters: That's nice.

2257
03:22:57,480 --> 03:23:01,020
Nesters: I'll, I guess I'll talk to you later a little bit about your product.

2258
03:23:01,600 --> 03:23:07,000
Nesters: And yeah, I'm also gonna get to eat something and have a nice, basically have a nice day.

2259
03:23:07,340 --> 03:23:10,120
Nesters: Everyone, you can still see the recording.

2260
03:23:10,380 --> 03:23:13,100
Nesters: I mean, listen to the recording on theweeklyapp.com.

2261
03:23:13,160 --> 03:23:15,020
Nesters: You can find it in my bio later.

2262
03:23:15,420 --> 03:23:22,380
Nesters: I mean, you can listen to the space, but I'll add the audio recording so you can have a little bit better interface with the transcripts as well.

2263
03:23:22,620 --> 03:23:24,640
Nesters: So thank you, Nico.

2264
03:23:25,160 --> 03:23:25,960
Nesters: It was a great yap.

2265
03:23:26,140 --> 03:23:26,280
Nesters: Yeah.

2266
03:23:26,780 --> 03:23:30,580
Nesters: Thank you everyone for asking questions and joining.

2267
03:23:31,500 --> 03:23:32,300
Nesters: All right.

2268
03:23:32,400 --> 03:23:32,700
Nesters: All right.

2269
03:23:32,760 --> 03:23:33,420
Nesters: See you next week.

2270
03:23:33,520 --> 03:23:33,640
Nesters: Bye.

2271
03:23:34,240 --> 03:23:34,560
Nesters: Yeah.

2272
03:23:34,760 --> 03:23:34,920
Nesters: Bye.