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Daniel: Hello, Nester.

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Daniel: What's on?

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Hassan: Hey, Daniel.

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Hassan: Nester, how's it going?

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Daniel: How are you?

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Daniel: I'm good, I'm good.

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Daniel: How do I sound?

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Daniel: Because last time apparently I was sounding like...

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Nesters: Yeah, I think about that last time it was actually a bug on the Spaces side.

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Nesters: When we got more listeners, it was around 70-80, so the sound changed for a couple of people.

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Daniel: Yeah, you too sound good.

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Daniel: So do I sound reasonably good?

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Nesters: Yeah, it sounds normal now.

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Nesters: It's not peaking like the last time.

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Nesters: I hope Francesco is here as well.

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Daniel: He's there, yeah.

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Daniel: So yeah, feel free to set me as a co-host, Nester.

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Daniel: Yeah, might help a bit.

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Vlad: Okay, invited.

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Vlad: Cool, I'm in.

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Nesters: Actually, I can add Hasan too, just in case it boosts us a little bit more.

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Nesters: And maybe a little bit more visibility for his audience.

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Hassan: Sure.

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Hassan: Oh, I didn't know you can do co-hosting for three people.

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Nesters: Yeah, I think you can do two people.

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Nesters: Yeah, basically three total.

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Hassan: Okay.

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Nesters: So yeah, I invited you as well.

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Nesters: My UI is not updating, so I have no idea if you're a co-host or not.

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Hassan: Yep, I just got it and accepted it.

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Nesters: Okay.

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Nesters: Yeah, I think audio is better this time, right?

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Nesters: As far as I can tell.

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Daniel: Yeah, sounds great.

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Daniel: Yeah, it's way better.

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Nesters: All right.

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Nesters: Yeah, last time, I mean last week, we kind of skipped it a little bit too much.

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Nesters: We're running to continue, I guess, on the high note we finished last time with the Dago.

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Nesters: But it didn't exactly work out that well because the audio issues as well.

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Nesters: Actually, I've been testing that bot locally a little bit.

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Nesters: I think it's possible.

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Nesters: I think I actually can get it working in the spaces as well.

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Nesters: I'll try that bot.

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Daniel: But do you need separate accounts to make it work?

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Daniel: Presumably so, right?

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Nesters: Yeah, technically, I need one account that's logged in that can join spaces, basically.

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Nesters: It worked out, works.

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Nesters: I believe it's possible to deploy it on the cloud as well.

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Nesters: I don't know, like a server or something.

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Nesters: Test it locally.

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Nesters: I need the Chrome plugin, though, to be able to basically listen in with WebSockets.

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Nesters: Okay, cool.

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Nesters: Yeah, so hopefully I'll get it working for next week.

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Nesters: But yeah, we should probably start talking about the newsletter since Francesco is finally ready as a speaker.

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Nesters: So yeah, I guess you should probably do an introduction for everyone who, I guess, maybe doesn't know you or wants to hear it again.

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Hassan: Yeah, happy to.

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Hassan: So good afternoon, probably good morning or good evening to some of you.

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Hassan: Maybe before I give a quick intro, Nester, maybe I'll just give a shout out to Small Bets.

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Hassan: Because I know I see some familiar faces, but I guess there is a few folks who are listening in who don't know what this is about.

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Hassan: And this is a weekly app, so it's a weekly conversation that is hosted by Daniel Vassallo's Small Bets.

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Hassan: And for today's session, we're going to be talking about newsletters and driving revenue through newsletters, as well as using ads.

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Hassan: With Francesco here as our expert to kind of talk through a little bit about those strategies and how I work with him on that.

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Hassan: But for anyone who's not part of Small Bets, this is a fantastic community.

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Hassan: You just kind of pay once and you have access to multiple resident experts, including Daniel, of course, but also Nester and Francesco and myself to answer any question you might have through Campfire, which is similar to Discord.

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Hassan: So make sure you check that out if you haven't.

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Hassan: And then kind of a leeway into a little bit of context about who I am and what I do.

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Hassan: So for many, many years, I was working a full time job, a demanding full time job.

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Hassan: And while I was doing so, I wrote multiple books and published multiple courses on the side.

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Hassan: And what I mean by on the side is really leveraging platforms, specifically Amazon and Udemy, to help me market those books and courses overall.

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Hassan: I didn't enjoy marketing that much.

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Hassan: I'm not a big fan of it, even though I do realize it's a it's a super important thing to do.

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Hassan: But my focus was more on creating than than marketing.

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Hassan: And so I've published multiple books and courses and things are doing OK.

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Hassan: Like they were they were well overall published over 20 books now and maybe over 15 courses now on Udemy.

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Hassan: In terms of numbers, books have approximately 120,000 downloads in total.

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Hassan: And then with courses, it's a little bit over 430,000 unique students on on Udemy.

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Hassan: And not too long ago, maybe a year and a half or actually a year ago now, I got laid off from my job.

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Hassan: So now I'm all in on the small bets philosophy of continuously building small projects, multiple books, more courses and a few other online courses as well, like cohort based courses, too.

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Hassan: So that's sort of it at a very high level.

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Hassan: Now, when it came to newsletters, I was always allergic to the idea of newsletters.

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Hassan: I have had I've had sort of email lists.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: So anyone who purchases my books or my courses, they had the opportunity to sign up using just an email form and they get a freebie and what have you.

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Hassan: But I never really liked the idea of a newsletter only because I didn't like the idea of being forced to write down.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: Like there's a set schedule and I have to sit down and write.

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Hassan: So I didn't like that idea and I pushed it off, even though I knew the value of newsletters.

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Hassan: I just felt like this is not what I want to do, especially with a full time family and a full time job and doing all those side projects.

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Hassan: I figured out that my disposable time is probably spent better on creating more as opposed to like creating more paid products like books and courses as opposed to doing something for free.

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Hassan: But that changed around a year and a half ago.

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Hassan: I just started reading a lot of the tea leaves about where the world is heading.

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Hassan: Social media.

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Hassan: I think Nester, you just made the comment earlier today that you were kind of already feeling the squeeze there on social media.

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Hassan: We're not getting as much reach in combination with AI bots that are out there.

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Hassan: A lot of farming going on in terms of content.

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Hassan: You're starting to kind of feel like there is a big shift at a macro level away from just getting that much reach with social media.

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Hassan: And so that was one of the drivers.

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Hassan: I said, all right, well, I'm out of a job, so I might as well.

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Hassan: I do have more free time now.

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Hassan: But then and I'm sure we're going to talk a lot more about some of the advantages here.

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Hassan: It went from having zero newsletters to now having three that I run every every week.

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Hassan: So they're all weekly newsletters.

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Hassan: And just to kind of give you a little bit of context, and then we'll open it up to questions and maybe even just hand it over to Francesco here in a little bit.

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Hassan: But the three newsletters are about three completely different topics.

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Hassan: One, which is probably most relevant to people who are listening here, is called SideGigHacks.

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Hassan: You can find it on SideGigHacks.com.

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Hassan: This is my latest newsletter.

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Hassan: And it's really just about how do you come up with or publish and write books and courses and other small sorts of products or digital products online.

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Hassan: The other is called Leadership 80-20, which is really about the 80-20 rule for leading teams.

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Hassan: And this is really my focus area.

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Hassan: And that was basically my focus area for many, many years in the corporate world.

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Hassan: Worked at EY, worked at Cisco Systems.

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Hassan: And so a lot of tips there that I share.

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Hassan: And then the third is AI for Leaders.

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Hassan: So specifically, very passionate about the whole AI world and how you can apply it to improve workplace productivity and what have you.

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Hassan: And I actually started that first.

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Hassan: In terms of numbers, the newsletters range from the lowest, I think, is 3,000 subscribers.

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Hassan: That's the AI for Leaders one.

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Hassan: And then the highest is Leadership 80-20, which is now at around 16,000 subscribers.

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Hassan: And then how I kind of wanted to learn a little bit more about growth, this was before I got to those numbers.

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Hassan: I actually, I think it was a tweet or maybe in the small bets community, asked about some help to drive traffic to my newsletter.

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Hassan: One of them, actually.

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Hassan: And that's when Daniel Vassallo connected me with Francesco, who's a speaker with us here today.

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Hassan: And I ended up working with Francesco.

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Hassan: We had a phenomenal, successful campaign driving subscribers from Meta, basically Facebook and Instagram, as subscribers.

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Hassan: So maybe with that, I know that was a long introduction, but maybe with that, I'll turn it over to Francesco, maybe to give a little bit of info about his background and what he does.

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Hassan: And then we can open it up to Iap.

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Francesco: Thank you, Hasan.

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Francesco: I mean, I cannot top your introduction was very, very good.

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Francesco: But I hope you can hear me better.

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Francesco: Just stop me if you can't hear me on a bit of a...

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Francesco: Okay, perfect.

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Nesters: You're okay, yeah.

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Francesco: Sort of set up, improvised set up.

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Francesco: Yeah, I mean, just literally 10 seconds about me.

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Francesco: I'm currently the CTO at a tech company.

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Francesco: So it's kind of a boring thing.

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Francesco: But this allows me to basically see so many campaigns and so many changes on the platforms that I feel a bit entitled and knowledgeable enough to speak about this stuff.

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Francesco: And I come from a background of agencies and other startups.

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Francesco: So I've seen a lot of things.

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Francesco: And in pretty much everything I did in the past, ads were involved.

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Francesco: That's why, to be honest, I don't like ads.

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Francesco: Sometimes I don't even suggest to use them.

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Francesco: But in 20 years, more than 20 years of my career, I always use them.

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Francesco: And 98% of cases, they are useful and they are sort of unnecessary evil for certain, let's say, part of growth of companies and projects and so forth.

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Francesco: And we found out that are incredibly good for the growth of a newsletter.

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Francesco: Because your users are on social networks and so forth.

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Francesco: Especially they look for some topics and also they are on Facebook, Instagram and other platforms.

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Francesco: And they're always hungry for content.

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Francesco: So we found out that promoting newsletters, they're asking, for example, as incredible numbers.

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Francesco: But it's not the only one.

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Francesco: Honestly, it's a very, very good way to grow your newsletter.

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Francesco: Because the cost for a subscriber, we will discuss more technical things, is low.

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Francesco: And if you manage to get decent growth and good growth, then it's really a good growth strategy.

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Francesco: So I'm happy to answer any question, any doubt, discuss anything.

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Francesco: Because most people are a bit skeptical about ads, about giving money to Google and Facebook.

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Francesco: And nobody really is happy about it.

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Francesco: But again, it's a bit of a necessary evil sometimes for your own good, your own growth.

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Francesco: So I'm happy to help here.

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Nesters: Yeah, I think we'll get into all the technical details.

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Nesters: And thank you also for the introduction.

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Nesters: We obviously did the yaps.

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Nesters: We didn't call them yaps, but we actually did the spaces last year as well.

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Nesters: Where we tried doing ads and we had like maybe two listeners that time.

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Nesters: Because no one, not Hasan, not a couple other people you have actually helped from small bets.

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Nesters: And otherwise, actually, we're considering ads.

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Nesters: So yeah, that's always been like this very defensive topic, especially for solo businesses, I guess.

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Nesters: Because you're kind of, I guess you're afraid just to put the money on the line as well.

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Daniel: Some people seem to be proud to not use ads.

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Daniel: Which I think is always a bit, sounds a bit strange to me.

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Daniel: I grew to a million dollars without using paid ads, which I understand the sentiment.

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Daniel: It's all organic.

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Daniel: Yeah, it's cool.

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Nesters: It's a nice story as well.

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Nesters: And I guess there is some kind of purest aspect that you feel like you're pure if you haven't actually used ads.

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Daniel: But is it reasonable to think of that?

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Daniel: I mean, what's the, what is corrupting the purity if you pay a platform to...

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Daniel: I'm genuinely asking.

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Nesters: Yeah, I don't know.

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Nesters: Because honestly, the easiest way to use ads is to retarget the people who already landed on your website.

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Nesters: That's the easiest way to use ads.

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Nesters: So, I mean, it's not, there's no difference really that you're just like...

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Daniel: Which is not what Hasan is doing, however.

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Daniel: Hasan, you're targeting new people, right?

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Daniel: Fresh people who never...

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Daniel: Correct.

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Hassan: Well, yeah, correct with a footnote, which we'll get to here in a little bit.

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Hassan: But to answer your question about the ads, I used to be in that camp, Daniel.

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Hassan: Like, I used to feel like, you know, there's a little bit of a sleazy component.

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Hassan: And I'll tell you how it feels.

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Hassan: It feels like if someone is on Instagram, they're there to connect with friends.

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Hassan: They're connected, you know, to look at pictures.

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Hassan: And so when an ad pops up trying to sell something, it just feels like you're interrupting them to actually, you know, buy something, even though that's not their objective.

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Hassan: Now, I think we're a little bit more immune to that.

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Hassan: But at least to me, for many, many years, I never read ads on any platforms, even though I had, you know, the funding for it.

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Hassan: I had the time for it.

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Hassan: I just never did that, except for one platform.

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Hassan: And that was on Amazon.

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Hassan: So I was totally okay with advertising my books on Amazon, only because people are on Amazon to buy stuff, right?

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Hassan: Like, you're on Amazon to shop.

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Hassan: And so it feels extremely natural to see an ad and click on it for a book, even though you're there to search for another book or you're buying something else.

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Hassan: But I changed my mind on that because even as a consumer, I'm sort of, again, immune to this.

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Hassan: I accept it.

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Hassan: And if it's something I'm not interested in, I kind of move on.

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Hassan: But we, you know, surprisingly, I had a lot of success.

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Hassan: And thanks to Francesco, I mean, in the design of the ads and how we thought about it.

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Hassan: You know, one of the things you want to think about when you're running ads is really, you know, some metrics like the cost of acquisition, right?

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Hassan: Like, what is the cost to get a subscriber?

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Hassan: I think in meta it's called DROAS, basically, as a metric return on ad spend.

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Hassan: And we had some good numbers, right?

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Hassan: Like, usually depends on many, many variables, but three, four dollars per conversion for something like this.

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Hassan: And we ended up with 50 cents per subscriber, which was insane.

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Hassan: And so that was that was a sort of an eye opener for me that, hey, I mean, people are subscribing and you're offering something.

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Hassan: In my case, it was offering something for free.

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Hassan: So it's a newsletter.

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Hassan: And as part of subscribing to the newsletter, you get a free copy of one of my books.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: So I think that probably made it a little bit less, to me at least, a little bit less slimy.

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Daniel: Yeah.

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Daniel: This is very interesting.

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Daniel: Once I heard Gary Vaynerchuk say something along these lines.

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Daniel: And of course, you know, we should take it with a grain of salt because he runs an ad agency.

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Daniel: So, you know, there's that bias.

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Daniel: But he said something that I think resonated with me.

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Daniel: He said, you can certainly do sleazy marketing and sleazy ads and clickbait and all the things that we hate.

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Daniel: Dark patterns and everything.

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Daniel: But you could choose not to.

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Daniel: And you could choose to have marketing that is not disruptive and annoying and clickbaity and sleazy and so on.

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Nesters: And nowadays, a lot of advertising is just content.

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Nesters: It's essentially content that leads to something more.

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Nesters: Basically, you can go to the website and buy something.

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Nesters: It's not even...

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Nesters: It used to be maybe a little bit more like it's sticking into your face all the time.

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Nesters: But it has definitely changed over time as well.

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Daniel: No, that's true.

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Daniel: Yeah, absolutely.

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Daniel: So, yeah, very interesting.

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Daniel: Hasan, so you mentioned 50 cents per subscriber.

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Daniel: Do you have a sense, or maybe Francesco does, if that's significantly below normal?

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Daniel: Or is it like around the average?

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Daniel: Like, well, what would one expect?

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Daniel: Because I have no clue, honestly.

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Daniel: I mean, it sounds reasonable, but I'm curious to hear what you're expecting.

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Hassan: I would love Francesco to actually answer that because he's got the big picture view of working with multiple clients.

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Francesco: Yeah, yeah.

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Francesco: Actually, I'm following a few newsletters now.

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Francesco: And to be honest, Hasan, I'm not very connected to yours.

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Francesco: So you need to update me a bit on the growth of yours.

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Francesco: It's been a while since we spoke about it and your cost actually is lower than last time we spoke.

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Francesco: So like for everything, when you do a paid ads campaign, the cost per acquisition has to be sort of calculated and sort of be, let's say, benchmarked against what you can get from these customers.

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Francesco: So, of course, if you are going to get customers in the US, it's more expensive than getting subscribers from, I don't know, some European country or even some African country or from some Asian country.

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Francesco: So the cost per acquisition is related to where you are advertising.

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Francesco: But this is common.

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Francesco: The markets have different prices.

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Francesco: So that's one thing.

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Francesco: And $0.50 could be actually a very good one.

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Francesco: But for example, my newsletter is growing slower and I have like $1.4 per subscriber.

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Francesco: That is still very good for what I'm getting out of those subscribers.

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Francesco: But nothing prevents you to get a subscriber for $20.

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Francesco: If then, you know, your customer value, how much you get from that customer is $200, $2000.

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Francesco: So it's all related to then what you're going to do with the newsletter.

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Francesco: What you're going to sell directly or, you know, put ads on the newsletter, selling advertisement on the newsletter itself.

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Francesco: And so it's a business.

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Francesco: Every newsletter, and Asan can confirm, is a business.

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Francesco: You have to calculate how much you need to spend to get something out of it.

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Francesco: And then the cost per acquisition.

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Francesco: So the cost per newsletter subscriber has to be benchmarked on that.

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Daniel: Yeah.

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Francesco: So it's a good one.

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Yeah.

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Daniel: No, no.

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Daniel: Makes sense.

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Daniel: Makes sense.

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Daniel: Like I think you're saying like, you know, if you're selling something expensive, like if you're selling private jets, like you could be, you know, spending $20 per subscriber or more.

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Daniel: But if you're selling e-books for $10, it probably has to be lower.

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Daniel: And I'm curious, like, Asan, how did you do this math yourself?

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Daniel: Like, how did you decide, OK, this is working.

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Daniel: 50 cents is good for me.

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Daniel: Like, what were you thinking of, like monetizing, essentially, as the other side?

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Hassan: Yeah.

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Hassan: Yeah.

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Hassan: Great, great question.

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Hassan: And that's something that, you know, there's a two part answer to that.

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Hassan: So the first is when I started, I didn't, to be honest with you.

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Hassan: Like, I didn't do the math.

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Hassan: I was like, I want to experiment with this.

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Hassan: I need to focus just on, you know, growth.

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Hassan: I just want to see how this works, work with Francesco on it and just play around with it.

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Hassan: But then and this answer is actually, Francesco, your question as well.

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Hassan: We haven't been connected because I actually stopped the ads for a while because I was going through a couple of changes.

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Hassan: I was moving different email providers, decided to move everything to Beehive.

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Hassan: I used to be with Aweber, did some upgrades too.

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Hassan: I updated all my books so that they point to the different newsletters that I have.

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Hassan: So I basically I saw that this works and I, you know, as a proof of concept, I paused it.

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Hassan: I've been working through a lot of updates recently and now my plan is to go back to to ads.

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Hassan: So I didn't do that calculation.

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Hassan: But here's really at a very high level the type of calculation I would do.

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Hassan: And this is a well-known formula for those of you who follow, like people like Alex Hermosi keep talking about this, which is LTV to CAC.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: Meaning Lifetime Value to CAC or Customer Acquisition Cost.

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Hassan: So if you know, for example, that the lifetime value of a customer, quote unquote, or a subscriber is $10 and then you end up spending $1 to acquire them, then, you know, that's a 10 to 1 or a 10x LTV to CAC, which is great.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: That that kind of gives you an engine to continuously grow.

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Hassan: It is tricky, obviously, to understand why or what that LTV is, because you got churn, you got people who unsubscribe, obviously, and then people who never open the email.

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Hassan: So there is there's a lot of different formulaic approaches to this.

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Hassan: But before I give you my answer to this, let me just take a step back, because I think a lot of folks here who've joined are joining to also understand like is a newsletter worth it?

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Hassan: Like why start a newsletter with, you know, what maybe drove me from going from never want to doing a newsletter to to investing in three and growing them.

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Hassan: A few reasons why newsletters are are a good business model.

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Hassan: The first is the big one, which is that you own your audience.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: So unlike a lot of the social media algorithms that change every day about who sees your content, email still gives you the most direct access to your audience.

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Hassan: Period.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: So even with every book launch that I've published, every cohort based course that I've launched, the highest by far conversion numbers came from email, right?

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Hassan: People still buy via email more than any other platform, at least to me.

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Hassan: So owning an audience, at least having their email addresses is just unparalleled to me in terms of actual hard numbers.

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Hassan: The other thing that changed my mind about newsletters is that initially I thought newsletters are going to take a ton of my time.

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Hassan: Like I'm going to have to write the newsletter just like I would approach writing a book, which takes me months of refining, researching, updating, editing and that sort of thing.

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Hassan: But then I realized that you don't need to spend that much time on on newsletters.

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Hassan: Like there's there's many different hacks you can think about.

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Hassan: The big one that everyone brings up is AI.

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Hassan: Yes, I use AI as an assistant, but not a replacement.

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Hassan: I have some ideas about that, which we can talk.

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Hassan: So I don't recommend just using an AI tool to kind of pump this out.

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Hassan: You want to make it yours.

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Hassan: You want to make it personable.

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Hassan: You want people to feel like they're not getting scammed into reading a newsletter that they can find generic content on anywhere.

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Hassan: But it's not just AI.

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Hassan: It's repurposing content you've already created, right?

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Hassan: Like maybe you had had a tweet that was popular.

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Hassan: Maybe you wrote something in a book that was highlighted multiple times.

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Hassan: You can take all of that content and repurpose it as part of your newsletter.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: So there's there's many different ideas there.

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Hassan: And you can also just curate content.

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Hassan: Like if I see, you know, like, for example, I'll give you a very hard example, which is kind of meta.

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Hassan: We're now doing a weekly space, right?

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Hassan: Like this is going to be recorded on... I know, Nester, you've got that website, theweeklyapp.com.

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Hassan: Like I will reference that as one part of my newsletter in next week's newsletter.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: Like I'll just basically say, you know, we were having a great conversation.

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Hassan: Here's the recording if you'd like to listen.

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Hassan: Like that's one out of five sections in my newsletter that is already populated.

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Hassan: So I don't need to overthink a lot of the content.

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Hassan: Another reason why newsletters are great and, you know, there is different tools you can use.

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Hassan: I went with Beehive.

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Hassan: Big fan of what they're doing.

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Hassan: Another big one is Substack as well.

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Hassan: Honestly, I didn't do a lot of deep dive between, you know, analysis between Substack and Beehive.

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Hassan: But I ended up going with Beehive after just doing a little bit of an analysis on how they focus on monetization.

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Hassan: So having a paid plan with a newsletter platform isn't cheap.

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Hassan: Like you have to invest a little bit of money.

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Hassan: I think I'm on a plan that is like, I think it's a thousand dollars a year, which gives me the three newsletters and I think up to 40,000 subscribers.

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Hassan: I was on an old plan.

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Hassan: They updated those now.

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Hassan: So just, you know, I was grandfathered into that.

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Hassan: But, you know, it's not cheap, right?

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Hassan: Like a thousand dollars is a lot of money just for a newsletter.

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Hassan: But the cool thing about Beehive specifically is that there's a couple of ways to monetize it.

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Hassan: One is in the newsletter itself, you can subscribe to what's called their ad network.

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Hassan: And every week, every other day, you get an email saying, hey, someone would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

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Hassan: And they make it super easy, super seamless.

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Hassan: I check out the sponsor.

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Hassan: If I like what they, you know, what they offer.

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Hassan: And the pay per click amount is reasonable.

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Hassan: Usually it's between a dollar and a dollar fifty per click.

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Hassan: I would just approve it and then select the date.

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Hassan: And then everything else is already baked in.

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Hassan: Like their ad creative is picked for you.

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Hassan: You just select it and then plop it into your newsletter.

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Hassan: You can control where it shows up in your newsletter.

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Hassan: So that's a fantastic way.

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Hassan: Already used that, made maybe over six, seven hundred bucks over the last year just from that.

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Hassan: And then the other way is something called boosts.

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Hassan: And this maybe Daniel answers your question earlier.

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Hassan: And it kind of ties into what Francesco was saying.

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Hassan: So I was running ads to my newsletter.

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Hassan: Now in Beehive, there's also a feature where when someone subscribes to my newsletter, before they get anything, before they see my landing page or they get redirected to my website, you get what's called recommendations.

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Hassan: Those recommendations are other newsletters within the Beehive network where someone can auto subscribe.

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Hassan: Like literally with one button or, you know, it's just like a checkbox.

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Hassan: Would you like to subscribe to those?

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Hassan: Those are recommended by Hassan's newsletter.

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Hassan: And if you do, I get paid like a buck or a buck fifty per each subscriber.

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Hassan: So I did the math like I, you know, for one week, I think when I was working with Francesco, I paid, gosh, maybe like three hundred and seventy dollars worth of meta ads.

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Hassan: And then I looked at the same week for just the boosts revenue and it was like seventy eight bucks.

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Hassan: So that was like a, I mean, obviously it didn't make all the money back, but it's a good sort of immediate relief on on your ROI.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: Like it was it was a great way to kind of get some money back after running ads.

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Hassan: So there's obviously multiple ways to monetize newsletters.

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Hassan: The simplest, easiest, cheapest way is just using ads that I don't need to go and hunt for.

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Hassan: I don't like need to pick up the phone.

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Hassan: I don't need to cold email.

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Hassan: Everything's automated within their network and you monetize that way.

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Hassan: But the more important thing about newsletters is that you can also monetize your own product sales.

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Hassan: Right.

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Hassan: Like that to me is the biggest thing, because the markup or the price point on that is much, much higher than a dollar fifty per click.

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Hassan: And so, you know, I'm launching a new a new flagship product.

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Hassan: It was a product that I I taught live for a while.

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Hassan: Now it's going to be in a prerecorded version plus one on one coaching.

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Hassan: And I'm starting to get a little bit of, you know, people who are interested.

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Hassan: The way I find out that they're interested is in every newsletter for the past couple of weeks.

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Hassan: I just add a section saying, hey, I'm launching this thing sometime soon.

403
00:29:49,780 --> 00:29:55,600
Hassan: If you're interested, fill out this form and I'll reach out to you to to let you know before I open it up to the public.

404
00:29:56,060 --> 00:30:02,740
Hassan: Now, before I had the newsletter, I had to, quote unquote, burn my list every time I need to promote something.

405
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:02,940
Hassan: Right.

406
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:09,560
Hassan: Like I'd send the entire email to everyone and sort of communicate that, hey, I'm launching this new thing.

407
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:11,920
Hassan: And I always felt a little bit of that guilt.

408
00:30:12,300 --> 00:30:12,440
Hassan: Right.

409
00:30:12,460 --> 00:30:20,380
Hassan: Like you don't want to you don't want to sell a lot to your email list because you want to use this to nurture to just build a following people.

410
00:30:20,380 --> 00:30:22,060
Hassan: You know, you want people to open your emails.

411
00:30:22,300 --> 00:30:28,500
Hassan: But with a newsletter, it didn't feel that intrusive because I'm sending, you know, content first to help them.

412
00:30:29,020 --> 00:30:36,620
Hassan: And then in the PS at the bottom or one of the five sections I have in the newsletter is about pitching my own product.

413
00:30:36,620 --> 00:30:36,920
Hassan: Right.

414
00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:39,020
Hassan: And that has helped.

415
00:30:39,140 --> 00:30:48,160
Hassan: I've already got a few a few sales for that that I wouldn't probably have gotten that easily if I was just blasting an email to everyone all the time.

416
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:55,740
Hassan: So those are just at a high level the reasons why I ended up going with newsletters as a business model.

417
00:30:57,180 --> 00:31:01,940
Hassan: And, you know, there's there's multiple ways, again, that you can you can grow.

418
00:31:02,180 --> 00:31:03,220
Hassan: PayDads is one of them.

419
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:11,780
Hassan: But my biggest the biggest way I'm growing is really through links at the end of my books or the end of my courses on Udemy.

420
00:31:11,780 --> 00:31:18,500
Hassan: So it's just saying, hey, I've got this newsletter, it's free and you get a free book if you sign up.

421
00:31:19,460 --> 00:31:21,360
Hassan: And that has been really, really helpful.

422
00:31:21,700 --> 00:31:30,200
Daniel: What do you think is the percentage that came from from the meta ads versus these other places, Udemy and so on?

423
00:31:31,860 --> 00:31:33,620
Hassan: So I got a total.

424
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,680
Hassan: And again, I did pause the ads in total.

425
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:44,060
Hassan: I got a total of around I think it was three thousand seven hundred subscribers through meta ads.

426
00:31:44,460 --> 00:31:46,960
Hassan: That was the total for my newsletter.

427
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,800
Daniel: And you spent about fifteen hundred, right?

428
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:52,080
Daniel: Yes.

429
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,520
Hassan: Fifteen hundred to eighteen hundred.

430
00:31:53,580 --> 00:31:55,020
Hassan: It was something like that in that range.

431
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:55,280
Hassan: Correct.

432
00:31:55,280 --> 00:32:02,620
Daniel: And do you think you recouped as well some with just the recommendations or the boost or whatever they call it?

433
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,220
Daniel: So this was pretty much almost like immediate recovery.

434
00:32:06,820 --> 00:32:07,100
Daniel: Is that so?

435
00:32:07,100 --> 00:32:07,260
Hassan: Correct.

436
00:32:07,540 --> 00:32:08,600
Hassan: There's immediate recovery.

437
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,840
Hassan: And then there is the multiple ads.

438
00:32:10,980 --> 00:32:16,540
Hassan: For those who remain subscribed, there was the multiple ads that I shared in every week's newsletter, right?

439
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:23,940
Hassan: Like if they clicked on it, I never really sat down to put on the, you know, hardcore analysis on that segment to see.

440
00:32:24,980 --> 00:32:29,620
Hassan: But yeah, I would say between those and like, I'll give you an example.

441
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:36,220
Hassan: So the course that I'm now pre-selling, there's multiple sorts of price points.

442
00:32:36,300 --> 00:32:42,040
Hassan: There's five hundred dollars, there's a thousand five hundred and then there's the high end one on one unlimited coaching.

443
00:32:42,580 --> 00:32:48,660
Hassan: But there was one person who bought the fifteen hundred dollar package with someone who actually came from a meta ad.

444
00:32:48,660 --> 00:32:52,880
Hassan: So that to me was like, all right, like that.

445
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:58,080
Hassan: I mean, again, it could be just random that this happened, but you found out about me through that.

446
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,920
Nesters: It technically recouped the whole cost.

447
00:33:01,180 --> 00:33:01,400
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

448
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:10,160
Daniel: And I think it might be of course, you know, maybe the sample size is not high enough to sort of infer the ratios and so on.

449
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:12,760
Daniel: But it's something there that I mean, I wouldn't be surprised.

450
00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:16,520
Nesters: I mean, three thousand seven hundred subscribers is a lot.

451
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:31,120
Nesters: I mean, if you even think about, for example, if you could do like fifty CPM, let's say fifty dollars CPM on those subscribers, that would be per one advertisement sponsorship you would put in your newsletter.

452
00:33:31,260 --> 00:33:33,020
Nesters: That would actually be around two hundred bucks.

453
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:38,580
Nesters: So ten sponsorships would actually recoup the cost of those fifty CPM.

454
00:33:38,580 --> 00:33:46,220
Nesters: But if you think about like, even if it's one percent conversion, even if it would be one percent conversion rate for like one thousand five hundred dollars, right.

455
00:33:46,780 --> 00:33:54,780
Nesters: Of course, from those subscribers, you're actually, you would be getting, you should be statistically getting at least a couple of purchases.

456
00:33:55,380 --> 00:33:58,060
Nesters: Even at one percent conversion, which is very low for a newsletter.

457
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,460
Daniel: I would expect so, yeah.

458
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:02,560
Daniel: So, Hassan, can this be scaled?

459
00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:04,880
Daniel: So you seem to have good Unicef economics.

460
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,060
Daniel: Can you do it 10x or there's limits here, saturation and so on and so forth?

461
00:34:10,300 --> 00:34:14,300
Daniel: Or maybe, I don't know if like Francesco has to say something, but like either one of you.

462
00:34:15,340 --> 00:34:18,240
Hassan: Yeah, I think, I mean, it is absolutely that's the goal.

463
00:34:18,420 --> 00:34:27,460
Hassan: Like my goal is and that's why I paused a little bit working with Francesco is to kind of set up the infrastructure first and get that flagship product.

464
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,280
Hassan: Up and ready and automated so that I can run better math on that.

465
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:43,800
Hassan: Like to kind of say, all right, if I spend a thousand dollars in ads and I wait a couple of months, do I see the return through the sales of my product?

466
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,120
Hassan: So I think it absolutely can be scaled.

467
00:34:46,740 --> 00:34:55,580
Hassan: One thing I actually learned from Francesco as well, and this is where, you know, getting 3700 subscribers through ads, not all of them are equal.

468
00:34:55,580 --> 00:34:56,000
Hassan: Right.

469
00:34:56,100 --> 00:35:07,160
Hassan: Like to be, you know, and what I mean is there are some nuances in terms of demographics, you know, different like the US, for example, has a very high purchasing power.

470
00:35:07,380 --> 00:35:10,700
Hassan: You know, you know, you take the average person who's working a full time job.

471
00:35:11,140 --> 00:35:15,920
Hassan: They can afford a product that's a thousand five hundred dollars to write a book.

472
00:35:15,980 --> 00:35:16,200
Hassan: Right.

473
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:22,960
Hassan: But the, you know, someone who's living in a developing country, ten dollars is a lot of money.

474
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:23,340
Hassan: Right.

475
00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:23,880
Hassan: Like so.

476
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:34,520
Hassan: So there's also, you know, as part of the analysis, when we went through the meta dashboard, I also saw that there was a big portion that was international.

477
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:42,900
Hassan: And when we ran some like power parity numbers, like some of those are countries that don't don't have a high purchasing power.

478
00:35:43,060 --> 00:35:46,000
Hassan: So now that doesn't mean that they don't add value.

479
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:56,000
Hassan: They do add value, but that segment wouldn't buy my fifteen hundred dollar course, but they would click on an ad in the in the newsletter.

480
00:35:56,220 --> 00:35:56,300
Hassan: Right.

481
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:56,820
Hassan: Like it's free.

482
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:57,800
Hassan: They can just click on it.

483
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,580
Hassan: And if they remain subscribed, I can potentially make more money there.

484
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:07,120
Hassan: So so in terms of the math question, Daniel, I think there's like in my mind, always those two bubbles.

485
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:20,800
Hassan: One is I need to also have this run as a business and sustainable just based on ads like the low click through ads and not just the, you know, high ticket item that I sell.

486
00:36:20,940 --> 00:36:21,120
Hassan: Right.

487
00:36:21,180 --> 00:36:28,700
Hassan: So I kind of need to do do a couple of scenarios there on what makes the most sense to drive traffic there to that.

488
00:36:28,700 --> 00:36:33,460
Nesters: So you would just have that value ladder that you often do, especially in newsletters.

489
00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:35,940
Nesters: It's also pretty common, actually, to do the value ladder.

490
00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:37,440
Nesters: Correct.

491
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:38,680
Nesters: Yeah.

492
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:39,720
Nesters: Yeah.

493
00:36:39,860 --> 00:36:48,380
Hassan: And, you know, keep in mind and, you know, Francesco and I talked a lot about this, which is I'm also you know, this is good and bad at the same time.

494
00:36:48,460 --> 00:36:54,260
Hassan: So I give people a free copy of my book in exchange to sign up to my newsletter.

495
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:59,620
Hassan: So when people see the ad on Meta and click on that, what they're looking for is the book.

496
00:37:00,420 --> 00:37:05,080
Hassan: And so what I also notice is that they download the book and then they don't open the first, you know, emails after that.

497
00:37:05,180 --> 00:37:06,180
Hassan: Many don't.

498
00:37:06,580 --> 00:37:21,820
Hassan: So there's also that loss as well that you've got to you've got to think about where does it make sense for me to work with Francesco and come up with an ad that doesn't advertise the book and just says sign up to my free newsletter and here's the value you're getting.

499
00:37:21,820 --> 00:37:25,800
Hassan: And then I give them the book as an extra, you know, unexpected bonus.

500
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:35,080
Hassan: Even if I pay higher on the customer acquisition costs, I might get better quality leads.

501
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:35,340
Hassan: Right.

502
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:41,220
Hassan: I'll get someone who's actually interested in the weekly email, not so much in just downloading the book and running away.

503
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:43,340
Hassan: So there's a lot of variables here.

504
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:44,740
Francesco: Yeah.

505
00:37:45,060 --> 00:37:54,920
Francesco: And if you there's something sort of answering the question from Daniel, I think something to what you said that is completely true and absolutely correct.

506
00:37:55,700 --> 00:38:01,020
Francesco: You know, when you scale, then it's crazy because you get this.

507
00:38:01,380 --> 00:38:10,080
Francesco: You get a lot of subscribers and these subscribers, again, maybe just a small percentage buys directly your product, but you create an audience.

508
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:13,420
Francesco: And this audience is nurtured.

509
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:28,340
Francesco: So it is a selected audience because eventually, you know, some subscribers, they will just unsubscribe and people that will stay with you for 5, 10, 15 issues of the newsletter are literally a good audience in your niche.

510
00:38:28,340 --> 00:38:37,060
Francesco: And it's crazy because you can sell this audience to brands, anybody that wants to place ad in your newsletter.

511
00:38:37,320 --> 00:38:40,520
Francesco: And this is cheaper for them than doing Facebook ads.

512
00:38:41,100 --> 00:38:47,940
Francesco: So it's kind of a circle for them is better because the targeting is already done.

513
00:38:48,020 --> 00:38:52,520
Francesco: They don't even need to rely on the algorithm from Meta to find the right target.

514
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,320
Francesco: They literally just put a banner there and the audience is there.

515
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,340
Francesco: And it's a very, very good audience.

516
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:05,720
Francesco: And instead of getting the ad in the feed of, you know, Meta, Instagram, Facebook, whatever, they get it in the inbox.

517
00:39:05,860 --> 00:39:07,280
Francesco: That is actually good.

518
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:15,040
Francesco: So once you have a critical mass, once you have an audience that is good, is big enough, then you can sell this audience.

519
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:17,120
Francesco: I mean, don't get me wrong.

520
00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:23,640
Francesco: You're not literally selling it, but you're leveraging this audience to sell ads in your own newsletter.

521
00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:35,980
Francesco: And I can assure you there are brands that are very happy to do this kind of investment because it's better, especially for niche newsletter, but also for local newsletter.

522
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:40,760
Francesco: Local newsletters, they basically make money like this.

523
00:39:41,760 --> 00:39:43,900
Francesco: So this is a bit how it works when you scale.

524
00:39:45,260 --> 00:39:50,020
Nesters: Yeah, that was one reason why I mentioned the CPM that you could technically make back.

525
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:55,540
Nesters: For example, $50 CPM, you would make it back in 10 newsletters, what you paid in ads, theoretically.

526
00:39:56,340 --> 00:40:01,980
Nesters: So, you know, that's why I also mentioned that you could actually theoretically do that sponsorship.

527
00:40:02,180 --> 00:40:08,660
Nesters: Not the Beehive, but also sell the audience to some qualified buyer, I guess.

528
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:09,380
Hassan: Correct.

529
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,820
Hassan: And by the way, Beehive, and that's what I really like about Beehive.

530
00:40:12,820 --> 00:40:17,500
Hassan: They constantly listen to the market and they're like, they remind me a lot of Gumroad and I'm a big fan of Gumroad.

531
00:40:18,060 --> 00:40:28,840
Hassan: But, you know, for example, they noticed that there's that niche as well, that not every creator wants to sell, you know, $1.50 CPM ads or CPC ads.

532
00:40:29,660 --> 00:40:38,440
Hassan: They now offer the new product where you can package based on analytics that you already have, you know, open rates, demographics, all of that.

533
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:46,500
Hassan: And you can start selling much higher packages for, you know, one-off sponsors, as Francesco was saying, right?

534
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:50,720
Hassan: Like someone who's interested in, you know, leadership, for example.

535
00:40:50,720 --> 00:40:58,680
Hassan: They've got a leadership product or a SaaS-based solution and they know I've got 16,000 subscribers with a 45% open rate.

536
00:40:59,060 --> 00:41:01,660
Hassan: And those are sort of the demographics that we see.

537
00:41:01,660 --> 00:41:09,300
Hassan: This is, you know, here you go, this is 1,500 bucks, for example, to put a placement in the next couple of weeks, right?

538
00:41:09,380 --> 00:41:10,640
Hassan: Like that is there.

539
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:11,520
Hassan: I haven't tried it yet.

540
00:41:11,620 --> 00:41:13,900
Hassan: I haven't really explored any of that.

541
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:18,480
Hassan: But there is a product that we have also facilitates that for you to make it easy to.

542
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:20,540
Nesters: Yeah.

543
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:28,480
Nesters: I guess I want to return a little bit back to the very beginning, I guess, because we talked a lot about ads and all the other topics.

544
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:35,120
Nesters: And I think I, because for me as well, like I technically started a newsletter, but I didn't continue updating it.

545
00:41:35,340 --> 00:41:48,840
Nesters: And I noticed that one of the things is also that newsletters, I guess, as a product, newsletters as a way to communicate in a way is, I guess, a little bit more boring compared to, I guess, how you do in social media.

546
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:54,060
Nesters: Because on social media, it's not just that you're posting and interacting directly in the comments.

547
00:41:54,060 --> 00:42:04,400
Nesters: It's also that you're constantly sucked into comparing yourself with other people, the likes, the like, how many impressions they get, for example, you're constantly seeing those metrics.

548
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:08,400
Nesters: But with the newsletter, it's more of a pass, you would say passive investment.

549
00:42:08,580 --> 00:42:12,340
Nesters: Yes, you see the metrics, but you're not directly comparing it to anyone else.

550
00:42:13,020 --> 00:42:14,920
Nesters: And you're also like, yeah, yeah.

551
00:42:14,980 --> 00:42:18,480
Nesters: So I think that's like, that's what sucks us in, for example, with social media.

552
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:34,100
Nesters: And as you mentioned, initially, that I did bring up the point that I do currently feel like the social media people are definitely trying to move and trying to move their audience off to, let's say, newsletters and communities as well, because they want to interact directly.

553
00:42:34,600 --> 00:42:40,120
Nesters: And it also brings generally just better quality interactions in newsletters as well.

554
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,960
Nesters: I have only sent a couple of issues.

555
00:42:44,160 --> 00:42:51,760
Nesters: I have actually had people email me after I sent the newsletter, which is much better than just actually even having a comment on social media.

556
00:42:51,900 --> 00:42:58,560
Nesters: They actually put a little bit more thoughtful email, how the newsletter was good and it resonated with them and stuff like that.

557
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,920
Nesters: And I really enjoy that aspect.

558
00:43:01,780 --> 00:43:05,840
Nesters: So I think that's one reason why people don't start the newsletters.

559
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,420
Nesters: And I myself, I'm not sending newsletters or growing it.

560
00:43:09,420 --> 00:43:13,040
Nesters: I have somewhere around 100 subscribers for a newsletter.

561
00:43:13,300 --> 00:43:15,600
Nesters: I have sent a couple of times and I haven't really grown.

562
00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:16,760
Nesters: I have them there.

563
00:43:16,820 --> 00:43:17,960
Nesters: I should actually be sending.

564
00:43:18,780 --> 00:43:26,340
Nesters: And what would be your maybe one-on-one suggestion for people who are about to start their newsletters or considering...

565
00:43:26,340 --> 00:43:36,000
Nesters: How would you perhaps approach to make it, I guess, a little bit more rewarding for yourself as well to start sending that?

566
00:43:36,020 --> 00:43:36,240
Hassan: Yeah.

567
00:43:36,860 --> 00:43:37,680
Hassan: Great question.

568
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:43,060
Hassan: I mean, look, if you want something worse than newsletters, try podcasts.

569
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:44,480
Hassan: I mean, I have a podcast too.

570
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:47,000
Hassan: And that's like zero interaction.

571
00:43:47,260 --> 00:43:54,980
Hassan: Like the friction for someone after listening to your podcast episode to email you and tell you they liked it is almost non-existent.

572
00:43:55,140 --> 00:43:57,440
Hassan: But to me, the ROI has been great.

573
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:58,820
Hassan: That's actually how I met Daniel.

574
00:43:59,900 --> 00:44:02,980
Hassan: Like first, I just reached out to him when he published the good parts of AWS.

575
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:06,020
Hassan: And since then, we've been highly connected on that.

576
00:44:06,020 --> 00:44:09,260
Hassan: So there's always an ROI on whatever you do.

577
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:17,100
Hassan: Yes, you're just going to have to walk into this with the expectation that you're not going to get a lot of engagement from newsletters.

578
00:44:17,220 --> 00:44:20,820
Hassan: Because it is, for the most part, more of like one-way communication.

579
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,040
Hassan: Now, there are ways where you get feedback.

580
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:31,420
Hassan: So, for example, in every newsletter that I have, and this is also another built-in feature in Beehive, you can run a poll, right?

581
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,700
Hassan: Like it's just literally a click poll.

582
00:44:34,380 --> 00:44:35,520
Hassan: You know, did you love it?

583
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:36,420
Hassan: It was okay.

584
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:37,460
Hassan: You hated it.

585
00:44:38,020 --> 00:44:47,340
Hassan: And there is an option after they click on either five stars, three stars, or one star, is how I have it set up, to kind of leave a comment.

586
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:48,480
Hassan: And I do get comments.

587
00:44:49,740 --> 00:44:50,600
Hassan: You know, some positive.

588
00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:55,360
Hassan: I actually tweeted about one that was negative a couple of weeks ago.

589
00:44:55,480 --> 00:45:01,120
Hassan: They just hate that I sent something on Mother's Day that was about a story of Sun Tzu like 2,000 years ago.

590
00:45:01,220 --> 00:45:03,660
Hassan: And they didn't like the fact that it was sent on Mother's Day.

591
00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:07,660
Hassan: But it was just like you get feedback from that.

592
00:45:09,220 --> 00:45:15,620
Hassan: But it's not as much as obviously Twitter or any other social media platform like LinkedIn or Facebook or any of those.

593
00:45:15,900 --> 00:45:23,120
Hassan: So, yeah, I mean, that's one way to kind of think about it, that you can get some feedback that way.

594
00:45:23,820 --> 00:45:27,760
Hassan: Just as a tangential thing I do want to mention here for anyone thinking about newsletters.

595
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:43,200
Hassan: One thing to be very careful about is that a lot of the email service providers now, like Gmail and even Apple's mailing system and all that, they do prioritize clicks versus open rates, right?

596
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:59,340
Hassan: So if you have someone that subscribes to your newsletter and they just open your email like five times in a row and they never click on anything, there is a chance that that sort of email would end up in a promotions tab or it just gets bumped down or the domain,

597
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,100
Hassan: what's it called, reputation goes down.

598
00:46:03,100 --> 00:46:04,380
Hassan: So there's a lot of that.

599
00:46:04,460 --> 00:46:14,160
Hassan: So what you'll see is a lot of newsletter subscribers or newsletter creators would ask or try to incentivize clicks.

600
00:46:14,360 --> 00:46:22,740
Hassan: So the polls also helps with that, like just having it in there regardless of what answers you might get, just incentivizing them to kind of click on that would help.

601
00:46:22,740 --> 00:46:35,920
Hassan: A trick I use is with every follow-up email, so even though I send the book, I click to download the book when they sign up, at the bottom of every email after that, I would say, didn't download the book yet?

602
00:46:35,960 --> 00:46:38,120
Hassan: You can download it again by clicking this link, right?

603
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:45,920
Hassan: So that way it just, again, informs the email provider that this is a genuine email and people actually want to receive it.

604
00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:47,920
Hassan: The best actually is replying back.

605
00:46:48,120 --> 00:47:01,060
Hassan: So you can also incentivize them at the beginning of a subscription to say, hey, email me back just with two words that you got this to let your email provider know that this is a legitimate email and you want to get more of it going forward.

606
00:47:01,060 --> 00:47:01,220
Hassan: Right.

607
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:04,140
Hassan: So just wanted to kind of mention that I learned that the hard way.

608
00:47:04,560 --> 00:47:11,600
Nesters: Yeah, there's even that regarding that, I can also, yeah, Prince, you'll get to talk.

609
00:47:11,780 --> 00:47:19,440
Nesters: I wanted to add a comment regarding that, that I myself also have seen that it definitely helps with reputation as well.

610
00:47:19,440 --> 00:47:33,180
Nesters: Not just like also getting them to click, which I have done before, since I mostly work with e-commerce space, have you done that as well, that on the first email they receive, there's usually like simple, quick, some kind of question, not questionnaire,

611
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:34,520
Nesters: really not even a poll.

612
00:47:34,740 --> 00:47:37,420
Nesters: But yeah, basically, where did you find us or something?

613
00:47:37,500 --> 00:47:38,980
Nesters: And you just basically a click poll.

614
00:47:39,060 --> 00:47:42,220
Nesters: So when they click, they technically go to the website, it just accepts the vote.

615
00:47:42,220 --> 00:47:53,100
Nesters: But it provides that additional click through, which does help, as you said, with the reputation to make sure those emails do not land in the wrong tab that you wouldn't want.

616
00:47:53,100 --> 00:48:05,960
Nesters: On top of it, what I personally did with my newsletter when I started, which might necessarily be the best thing to always do, but for smaller creators, I do believe it's actually relevant.

617
00:48:06,180 --> 00:48:13,860
Nesters: Although larger creators might often disagree because it's more spammy, is to have at least some form of welcome sequence for your newsletter.

618
00:48:13,860 --> 00:48:30,800
Nesters: So you can feature your best work, like from social media, perhaps, that way you can also get the followers on social media, if they're not following you on some other social media, but they found out about you on YouTube and you just link them, might feature some work that you've posted,

619
00:48:30,900 --> 00:48:33,140
Nesters: like that's great on X or LinkedIn, etc.

620
00:48:33,140 --> 00:48:49,960
Nesters: You can also get additional followers that way, but you can also write some good content as a welcome series about you, about your content and kind of good pieces, because that way they also get more familiar with you.

621
00:48:50,060 --> 00:49:02,720
Nesters: And if you see the open rate is also good on those emails, and maybe you incentivize them to click through on something, as I mentioned, maybe a social media piece, you actually get those metrics up that you specifically talked about.

622
00:49:02,720 --> 00:49:08,280
Nesters: So I'm wondering how you feel about it, because I noticed you didn't mention that you would ever send welcome series.

623
00:49:09,040 --> 00:49:10,280
Nesters: But how do you feel about it?

624
00:49:10,300 --> 00:49:15,460
Nesters: Because I mentioned that once to Justin Welsh in a reply on X, and he got mad at me.

625
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,560
Nesters: He was like, oh, one of those good practices again.

626
00:49:17,660 --> 00:49:19,720
Nesters: Yeah, yeah, you do that in e-commerce too, yes.

627
00:49:19,780 --> 00:49:28,480
Nesters: But I meant that for smaller creators to stay relevant, because on social media, it's also hard to be in front of the same people nowadays, you actually need to go a bit viral.

628
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:35,500
Nesters: So I felt like the welcome series kind of bridge that gap a little bit that you can actually introduce yourself to people.

629
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:42,540
Hassan: Yeah, look, I don't have any strong feelings for or against the welcome series.

630
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,780
Hassan: I haven't, to be honest, given it much thought about it.

631
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:47,600
Hassan: I personally don't do it yet.

632
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:53,400
Hassan: Only because I'm lazy in learning the automations feature of Beehive.

633
00:49:53,540 --> 00:49:55,720
Hassan: I'm, you know, again, focused just on the transition.

634
00:49:56,060 --> 00:49:58,080
Hassan: And that's probably something I'll get into.

635
00:49:59,080 --> 00:50:00,720
Hassan: I think that's not a bad idea.

636
00:50:00,720 --> 00:50:06,880
Hassan: Now, keep in mind, and I know Prince, you had a question, so we'll get to that right after this.

637
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,560
Hassan: But here's how I think about it.

638
00:50:10,720 --> 00:50:21,760
Hassan: So the funnel for me could either start from a paid ad, so someone that signs up to get the book and then the expectation is that they get a weekly email.

639
00:50:22,740 --> 00:50:31,680
Hassan: Or they could be at the end of one of my books or courses where I say, I've got this newsletter and you can get a free book if you sign up to it.

640
00:50:32,180 --> 00:50:47,680
Hassan: Now, in both of those cases, because I, to me, I impart a lot of value, which is a free book in my first email, that to me, for now, suffices as a sort of another incentive.

641
00:50:47,680 --> 00:51:04,240
Hassan: Like they already, especially for people who already bought a book or bought a course, and they know how I teach or how I write, and then they get another book on top of that, they already have sort of are primed as a couple of pieces of content that they enjoyed.

642
00:51:04,240 --> 00:51:06,220
Hassan: And so I actually do the reverse.

643
00:51:06,740 --> 00:51:13,400
Hassan: I, if someone, so for example, SideGig Hacks comes out every Saturday, right, Saturday morning.

644
00:51:13,780 --> 00:51:23,780
Hassan: And so I have a filtered segment in there where if someone actually signs up on a Friday evening, I don't want them to get the newsletter for that week.

645
00:51:23,780 --> 00:51:28,760
Hassan: So I actually opt them out of it because in my mind, I don't want to overwhelm them too much.

646
00:51:28,900 --> 00:51:36,320
Hassan: Like they just signed up today, they got the new book, and then the next morning they're getting yet another email from me.

647
00:51:36,900 --> 00:51:43,400
Hassan: Psychologically, I feel like it's just like in their mind, they're like, all right, this guy's just going to keep sending emails, even though they know it's a weekly thing.

648
00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:48,100
Nesters: Yeah, actually, I did the same with my newsletter and automations.

649
00:51:48,220 --> 00:51:52,980
Nesters: I would actually set up that until they finish the welcome series, I'm not actually sending any other emails.

650
00:51:53,220 --> 00:51:59,180
Nesters: But even if it hits my whatever, if I would be releasing something, it wouldn't actually go through for that audience.

651
00:51:59,460 --> 00:51:59,680
Hassan: Got it.

652
00:51:59,720 --> 00:52:10,000
Hassan: So then we're on the same page, because I was just like, literally, I was about to go there, which is like, if I were to set up a welcome series, I would make sure they don't see any other email from me from the fresh content.

653
00:52:10,000 --> 00:52:11,800
Nesters: That's the main worry.

654
00:52:12,000 --> 00:52:23,120
Nesters: And that my belief is that for smaller creators, it is more beneficial to try to do maybe a little bit spaced out welcome series, so they get familiar with you rather than not trying at all.

655
00:52:23,180 --> 00:52:31,520
Nesters: Because there is this chance that they kind of forget about you, for a smaller creator, not for someone who's maybe already has the authority in the space, etc.

656
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:39,820
Nesters: But I feel like for a smaller creator, it might benefit more than to try to get that initial connection.

657
00:52:41,380 --> 00:52:42,540
Hassan: Yeah, honestly, I don't know.

658
00:52:42,620 --> 00:52:44,880
Hassan: I don't have, you know, insights into that at all.

659
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:51,400
Nesters: Yeah, I think we're gonna finally give an opportunity to Prince yet.

660
00:52:53,020 --> 00:52:54,040
Prince: Oh, finally.

661
00:52:54,780 --> 00:52:55,600
Prince: Hey, guys.

662
00:52:56,080 --> 00:52:57,780
Prince: So I have a couple of questions.

663
00:52:58,940 --> 00:53:05,440
Prince: One observation, I think, what Hassan said about overwhelming a new signup is completely true.

664
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,920
Prince: I recently signed up for a really good product.

665
00:53:08,700 --> 00:53:13,320
Prince: And even though I was happy to pay for them, I suddenly saw like three emails in a row.

666
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:14,460
Prince: Confirm your email.

667
00:53:14,700 --> 00:53:15,820
Prince: Oh, here's your trial.

668
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:16,940
Prince: Oh, here's what you do.

669
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:19,500
Prince: And you know, this is like your onboarding.

670
00:53:19,580 --> 00:53:24,520
Prince: And I was like, what the hell's wrong with you just send me one email as in I already hated seeing it.

671
00:53:25,660 --> 00:53:31,480
Prince: I had a newsletter on subsite, actually, I mean, I still have it, but stopped writing a couple of months.

672
00:53:32,020 --> 00:53:35,420
Prince: And just as an experiment, I ran ads for it.

673
00:53:35,420 --> 00:53:44,500
Prince: But not like you did like meta ads, but actually, you know how many of newsletters, you know, at the end, they have like some classified ads or whatever at the bottom.

674
00:53:45,000 --> 00:53:49,060
Prince: And they always say, you know, get in touch if you want to, you know, book a slot.

675
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:52,240
Prince: And I did it with two.

676
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:53,980
Prince: It was mostly as an experiment.

677
00:53:54,300 --> 00:53:57,100
Prince: One, which was surprising, wasn't very good.

678
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:58,760
Prince: I think it was like cost of acquisition.

679
00:53:59,260 --> 00:54:03,320
Prince: Each new subscriber was like $3, but the other one was surprisingly good.

680
00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,500
Prince: I didn't expect it was less than a dollar.

681
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:20,260
Prince: And I was wondering if you've experimented with this, and how you would rate, you know, meta ads, Facebook, IG, against, you know, actual newsletter ads?

682
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:22,180
Hassan: Yeah, great question, Princeton.

683
00:54:22,300 --> 00:54:23,160
Hassan: Thanks for being patient.

684
00:54:24,500 --> 00:54:32,320
Hassan: So I have not experimented with that, even though Beehive, I know you mentioned you're on Substack, Beehive also has the same sort of network.

685
00:54:32,420 --> 00:54:40,380
Hassan: So I can pay other creators to advertise my newsletter, and I can, you know, if I get a subscriber, I pay them.

686
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:49,580
Hassan: I have not experimented with that for one main reason is because I was looking at the price range, and it was between $1 and $1.80.

687
00:54:50,380 --> 00:55:00,700
Hassan: To do that, so when I was getting $0.50 per subscriber with Francesco, I was like, you know, why do I need to pay double or triple to get the subscribers there?

688
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:10,180
Hassan: So I decided consciously not to invest in that just because I had some actual data from meta ads that I ran.

689
00:55:10,640 --> 00:55:15,500
Hassan: And so if I have, you know, if I'm going to do a campaign, I would want to double down on that first.

690
00:55:16,100 --> 00:55:21,480
Hassan: Now, again, the argument could be those ads could be, you know, could be higher quality leads.

691
00:55:21,820 --> 00:55:23,540
Hassan: I mean, that's to be determined.

692
00:55:23,680 --> 00:55:24,080
Hassan: I don't know.

693
00:55:24,620 --> 00:55:27,220
Hassan: But it's just something I intentionally avoided.

694
00:55:27,220 --> 00:55:39,160
Nesters: I guess the idea about quality could be that those people could be already partially adjacent to your audience through a different newsletter, sharing similar content.

695
00:55:39,300 --> 00:55:42,380
Nesters: And with the meta, you might be hitting a little bit of a different audience.

696
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,400
Nesters: Yeah, that could be an argument that maybe.

697
00:55:44,900 --> 00:55:50,620
Nesters: So I think if you would set up that value ladder that you wanted to maybe, that later you could actually test it out, right?

698
00:55:51,380 --> 00:55:52,240
Hassan: Correct, correct.

699
00:55:52,460 --> 00:55:53,420
Hassan: Yeah, that's a good point.

700
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:58,680
Hassan: I mean, because you get to choose which other newsletters can advertise your own, your own content.

701
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,160
Hassan: So you can be a little bit more picky on that for sure.

702
00:56:04,420 --> 00:56:05,560
Hassan: Go ahead, please.

703
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:12,360
Prince: No, I just wanted to like give a random just observation I had might help people.

704
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:20,520
Prince: I actually thought the same, you know, like, if you get people who are subscribing to this random newsletter, then they will like your random newsletter.

705
00:56:20,820 --> 00:56:23,480
Prince: Like, by random, I mean, I actually wrote about random things.

706
00:56:23,500 --> 00:56:25,020
Prince: It was more about the writing.

707
00:56:25,660 --> 00:56:28,400
Prince: And funnily enough, the first one didn't work out as well.

708
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:30,900
Prince: And then the second one was more about travel.

709
00:56:30,900 --> 00:56:34,140
Prince: And maybe, okay, I had a bit of traveling in there as well.

710
00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:37,780
Prince: That worked out like three, four times as better as the first one.

711
00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:43,960
Prince: And it also had, I think, I know, way less subscribers, like probably like 100,000 less.

712
00:56:44,600 --> 00:56:48,760
Prince: So yeah, it worked out completely opposite as I as I expected.

713
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:50,100
Hassan: Oh, well, interesting.

714
00:56:50,220 --> 00:56:51,840
Hassan: What's your what's your newsletter about Prince?

715
00:56:52,780 --> 00:56:54,440
Prince: It was called spam.

716
00:56:54,620 --> 00:56:56,460
Prince: I literally gave people spam.

717
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,220
Prince: But it was it was like, yeah, like just random things about.

718
00:57:01,420 --> 00:57:08,020
Nesters: Yeah, I think I want to take this into the other question I even had prepared is like, because you run three newsletters.

719
00:57:08,220 --> 00:57:15,580
Nesters: So if I'm a generalist, Prince, I guess, would be in a similar category regarding the topics we'll talk about.

720
00:57:15,580 --> 00:57:23,840
Nesters: Like, how do you how do you actually keep yourself either you do you create newsletter per topic?

721
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:26,620
Nesters: Do you combine some of the topics together?

722
00:57:27,060 --> 00:57:41,380
Nesters: You set up a blog or etc of product for each like, how do you start from a point where you actually have multiple topics you want to talk about on a social media might also feel like you want to talk about multiple topics?

723
00:57:42,060 --> 00:57:56,760
Nesters: Or maybe you're in social media or staying within one topic, but actually, there's other interests and you feel like, if you want to talk about the other interests, maybe you can set up a newsletter for the other interests, because I know on YouTube, it's always recommendation to split accounts per topic.

724
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,260
Nesters: And I know that I believe you do even the same on X.

725
00:57:59,260 --> 00:58:01,120
Nesters: Yeah, multiple social.

726
00:58:01,220 --> 00:58:01,360
Nesters: Yeah.

727
00:58:01,660 --> 00:58:04,580
Nesters: So I want to hear your like, what's your approach?

728
00:58:04,620 --> 00:58:05,600
Nesters: How do you feel about it?

729
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:06,480
Nesters: How does it work?

730
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,880
Nesters: Especially when you have multiple accounts or multiple newsletters?

731
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:13,580
Nesters: I know that's a little bit more management, you know, time, perhaps.

732
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:14,880
Nesters: How does that?

733
00:58:15,380 --> 00:58:16,080
Nesters: How does it work?

734
00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:17,740
Hassan: Yeah, great, great question.

735
00:58:17,880 --> 00:58:19,540
Hassan: Look, I struggled with this for years.

736
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:22,520
Hassan: Like trying to figure it out.

737
00:58:22,700 --> 00:58:27,660
Hassan: Do I just be myself and do everything I want to talk about?

738
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:33,200
Hassan: Like, I think Daniel is a great, you know, a great example of that.

739
00:58:33,300 --> 00:58:38,480
Hassan: He just, you know, talks about woodworking sometimes and talks about entrepreneurship.

740
00:58:38,540 --> 00:58:41,380
Hassan: And then it's just been different things, which is amazing.

741
00:58:41,380 --> 00:58:48,100
Hassan: I, for a different reason, actually started out because I was a full time employee, right?

742
00:58:48,160 --> 00:58:51,260
Hassan: And I was a, I was a senior leader at an organization.

743
00:58:51,680 --> 00:58:58,420
Hassan: And I had followers from my companies, and I've got this persona, and I've been publishing books about management and all of that.

744
00:58:58,740 --> 00:59:07,700
Hassan: I felt like there is, you know, there was no major hard nose to kind of start talking about writing and entrepreneurship and all of that.

745
00:59:07,700 --> 00:59:22,040
Hassan: But it just felt right for me at the time that, you know, people who are following me about management topics and leadership and strategies and business are not always interested in writing a book or teaching a course on Udemy.

746
00:59:22,420 --> 00:59:24,700
Hassan: And so it wasn't an easy decision.

747
00:59:24,700 --> 00:59:31,080
Hassan: But I was like, you know what, I'm just going to start another account on X that is the one that you're looking at now, which is author on the side.

748
00:59:32,260 --> 00:59:38,680
Hassan: And the following that I built from scratch on this was people who were interested in the things that I was interested in talking about.

749
00:59:38,980 --> 00:59:46,460
Hassan: Now, I'm still interested in talking about how to delegate to teams, how to manage remote employees, how to use AI at work, and all of that stuff.

750
00:59:46,660 --> 00:59:48,980
Hassan: But that is a different audience, too.

751
00:59:48,980 --> 00:59:52,260
Hassan: So I have managed two separate websites.

752
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:54,180
Hassan: One is called the couchmanager.com.

753
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:58,640
Hassan: And the other is called writer on the side, which hosts the podcast and all of that.

754
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:01,420
Hassan: And it just there was a natural sort of transition from that.

755
01:00:01,660 --> 01:00:07,180
Hassan: When I came up with the newsletters, I wasn't going to call it my name.com, right?

756
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:13,900
Hassan: Like I wanted it to focus on a special interest that you might be excited and learning about.

757
01:00:15,140 --> 01:00:29,900
Hassan: And so as a generalist, I think, like, I look at this as a customer myself, like, if I want to subscribe to a newsletter, I don't want to subscribe to just any updates from someone, even if I like them, right?

758
01:00:29,900 --> 01:00:35,180
Hassan: Like, I don't want to get an email every week with no sort of expectation about what I'm getting.

759
01:00:35,180 --> 01:00:40,880
Hassan: I do want to subscribe to things where I will get some value every week.

760
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:45,300
Hassan: Like, for example, can't remember his last name, Matt Garland.

761
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:47,400
Hassan: I think he writes about newsletters.

762
01:00:47,580 --> 01:00:50,300
Hassan: He's got his newsletter course, which I took.

763
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:54,320
Hassan: And I actually look forward to that, because now I'm interested in growing my newsletters.

764
01:00:54,420 --> 01:00:58,240
Hassan: And his newsletter is about newsletter growth strategies, period.

765
01:00:58,240 --> 01:01:01,840
Hassan: So everything he writes in there is something I want to consume.

766
01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:07,180
Hassan: And even the products that he mentions are things I'm potentially interested in.

767
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:25,260
Hassan: So my recommendation is, and this is sort of like across the board, even when I write a book or I build a course, this is sort of the cardinal rule that I follow, which is focus on the problem first, and the more niche you are, then the better, and then work backwards from that.

768
01:01:26,780 --> 01:01:37,120
Hassan: So for example, Leadership 8020 is my newsletter about the 20% of tactics that get you 80% of the results if you are a leader of a team.

769
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:43,800
Hassan: You don't want to learn every single tactic and strategy in the book, just focus on the stuff that matters.

770
01:01:44,300 --> 01:01:53,220
Hassan: So if you're a leader at a corporate organization, an organization here in the US, and you're a middle manager, you're going to get some tips that are going to help you day to day.

771
01:01:53,220 --> 01:02:06,380
Hassan: But if I combine that with side gig hacks, telling you how to, you know, improve open rates on a newsletter, that subscriber is going to potentially just unsubscribe at one point in time, right?

772
01:02:07,580 --> 01:02:12,060
Hassan: Again, I might be wrong on this, because there's different philosophies.

773
01:02:12,620 --> 01:02:14,840
Hassan: But that's sort of how I think about it.

774
01:02:14,920 --> 01:02:16,040
Hassan: Like start with the problem.

775
01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,560
Hassan: Think about it from the subscribers perspective, like what are you sending them?

776
01:02:20,940 --> 01:02:28,800
Hassan: I'd much rather have fewer subscribers that are much, much more engaged than just like 100,000 subscribers with like a 7% open rate.

777
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:31,360
Hassan: Like that doesn't, it's not appealing to me, right?

778
01:02:31,380 --> 01:02:33,700
Hassan: Like it's not a vanity metric to me.

779
01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:36,800
Hassan: So, and I, by the way, start cleaning my list.

780
01:02:36,900 --> 01:02:40,160
Hassan: Like that's another thing, just to kind of show you how my philosophy is.

781
01:02:40,360 --> 01:02:52,280
Hassan: Like I would run and have like a segment, if someone didn't open any emails in the last 90 days, with zero clicks, like they literally didn't even touch it, I actually unsubscribe them.

782
01:02:52,460 --> 01:02:54,460
Hassan: Like it costs me money to have a subscriber.

783
01:02:54,920 --> 01:03:01,340
Hassan: And like, I don't want just like, I don't want to just brag about a number, I don't care about the total number, I care more about the engagement.

784
01:03:01,340 --> 01:03:06,480
Hassan: And I run this maybe every a couple of months now, just to kind of clean up the list.

785
01:03:06,560 --> 01:03:11,440
Hassan: And it ends up open, you know, you end up getting higher open rates because of that as well.

786
01:03:13,780 --> 01:03:20,380
Nesters: I mean, there is some risk that it doesn't track correctly because of the new privacy, like rules.

787
01:03:21,580 --> 01:03:23,640
Hassan: True, there's always that risk.

788
01:03:23,900 --> 01:03:29,840
Hassan: Yeah, I mean, there's some recommendations that you, you know, segment those out and then send them an email, something like, do you hate me?

789
01:03:29,940 --> 01:03:34,960
Hassan: And, you know, have them reply back to you if not, because like, they haven't opened any emails.

790
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:43,540
Hassan: But again, then it's like, I mean, for example, I know, hey, email doesn't let you see, you know, clicks or open rates.

791
01:03:44,220 --> 01:03:46,440
Hassan: So, you know, there's always that risk.

792
01:03:46,460 --> 01:03:49,960
Hassan: And there's some tools you can apply and filters to kind of remove those out.

793
01:03:50,380 --> 01:03:53,260
Hassan: So your typical Yahoo, Gmail, that sort of thing.

794
01:03:54,320 --> 01:03:56,660
Hassan: And by the way, this is a problem on the opposite side, too.

795
01:03:56,960 --> 01:03:58,520
Hassan: Like there are email scanners now.

796
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:00,460
Hassan: Like, for example, I would send out an email.

797
01:04:01,140 --> 01:04:07,920
Hassan: And then 30 seconds later, I'd see someone who clicked 13 times in my email and opened it 17 times.

798
01:04:08,100 --> 01:04:09,580
Hassan: Like that is not a human being.

799
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:14,020
Hassan: That's just a, you know, that's just a system scanner at some of those companies.

800
01:04:14,020 --> 01:04:19,920
Hassan: And a lot of them are like DoD emails, you know, it's just government agencies that scan those emails.

801
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:24,680
Hassan: So you get fake inflated open rates, too, sometimes with those, right?

802
01:04:24,740 --> 01:04:28,760
Hassan: So it kind of works both ways to that, you know, just have to kind of factor those in.

803
01:04:30,820 --> 01:04:31,260
Nesters: Yeah.

804
01:04:32,600 --> 01:04:35,920
Nesters: Did we have a question from Christian by any chance?

805
01:04:36,060 --> 01:04:37,320
Nesters: I believe he wanted to speak.

806
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:39,240
Krystian: I do have a question.

807
01:04:39,500 --> 01:04:40,040
Krystian: Hi, everyone.

808
01:04:41,140 --> 01:04:44,220
Krystian: Thank you so much for sharing all the knowledge so far.

809
01:04:44,300 --> 01:04:45,420
Krystian: It's really awesome to hear.

810
01:04:46,100 --> 01:04:53,400
Krystian: Hasan, you mentioned about niching in, right, on when it comes to the topics of specific newsletters.

811
01:04:53,980 --> 01:05:06,980
Krystian: And then earlier you mentioned how one of the benefits of the newsletter is that you can promote your own kind of products and you would put it at the bottom of the email while still providing a value.

812
01:05:06,980 --> 01:05:14,700
Krystian: My question is, would you promote only certain your own products to certain newsletters?

813
01:05:15,040 --> 01:05:31,520
Krystian: Or are you okay of mentioning anything that you are kind of working on because you are an author, even though it might be not fully aligned with the topic of the newsletter, if that makes sense?

814
01:05:31,520 --> 01:05:34,660
Hassan: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense and a great, great question.

815
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:39,560
Hassan: And the answer is I do cross market if it applies or even remotely applies to them.

816
01:05:39,860 --> 01:05:44,140
Hassan: So, you know, this will make a little bit more sense just to kind of give you some context.

817
01:05:44,140 --> 01:05:49,060
Hassan: So the product I'm now pre-launching is called the four-week write your book on the side system.

818
01:05:49,180 --> 01:05:54,740
Hassan: It was a cohort based course that was giving over four weeks live sessions and that sort of thing.

819
01:05:55,460 --> 01:05:59,920
Hassan: And it's about how to also use AI the right way to write your book quickly in four weeks.

820
01:06:00,100 --> 01:06:02,220
Hassan: And it was fairly successful.

821
01:06:02,420 --> 01:06:06,820
Hassan: And one of the big questions was, can we get a pre-recorded version?

822
01:06:06,900 --> 01:06:08,620
Hassan: And I kept pushing that out.

823
01:06:08,620 --> 01:06:09,960
Hassan: And I finally buckled.

824
01:06:10,080 --> 01:06:15,300
Hassan: I said, I'll do a pre-recorded version and then a consulting one-on-one consulting as opposed to group coaching.

825
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:20,840
Hassan: So so the topic of my product is writing a book on the side.

826
01:06:20,980 --> 01:06:21,220
Hassan: Right.

827
01:06:22,460 --> 01:06:31,380
Hassan: So the best newsletter out of the three newsletters that I have is side gig hacks, because people who subscribe to this are always thinking about how do you come up with a side gig.

828
01:06:31,380 --> 01:06:35,380
Hassan: And so that I absolutely put that in there.

829
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:39,980
Hassan: And I'm like, if you'd like to write a book, fill out this short form and I'll get in touch with you.

830
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:44,580
Hassan: Now, the others, one is about leadership and one is about AI.

831
01:06:46,080 --> 01:06:58,380
Hassan: Could be, you know, someone who might be interested, like if you are a leader at an organization and you're interested in leadership, you're obviously in you might be interested in a business card on steroids, meaning a book.

832
01:06:58,380 --> 01:07:05,960
Hassan: And so the way I would rephrase that is elevate your status as a leader and write a book.

833
01:07:06,360 --> 01:07:14,700
Hassan: And so I would include the same form and the same, you know, same sort of ad copy, but maybe tweak it a little bit to make it more relevant to that audience.

834
01:07:14,700 --> 01:07:22,660
Hassan: And then the AI audience, I focus more on the AI part, like I would say, write it quickly using AI the right way or in your own voice.

835
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:31,040
Hassan: And so the short answer is because it applies, right, like, my course is about writing books, but it's also using AI.

836
01:07:31,300 --> 01:07:37,380
Hassan: So I focus more on the AI part with the AI audience, and then more on the writing book part with the side gig hacks audience, right.

837
01:07:38,160 --> 01:07:48,680
Hassan: But the cool thing is, because it's not as intrusive, like, you know, one thing I learned reading a lot about ratios of content to ads.

838
01:07:48,960 --> 01:07:55,540
Hassan: So like, there's this well known golden ratio, I think it's like 47 minutes for every hour of TV.

839
01:07:56,300 --> 01:07:59,180
Hassan: 13 of those minutes are ads, right?

840
01:07:59,220 --> 01:08:04,560
Hassan: So you get 47 minutes of content, and 13 minutes of, of advertising.

841
01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:18,680
Hassan: And if you actually look at the biggest platforms in the world, like if you look at TikTok, you look at Meta, you look at, you know, Instagram, Facebook, or whatever, you have a similar ratio, it's usually three to three to one or four to one.

842
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:25,200
Hassan: So for every three to four pieces of content, like you see your friends and what they're doing, and then you get an ad after that.

843
01:08:26,740 --> 01:08:35,140
Hassan: So I actually structured my newsletters that way, like literally every single and I templatize, sorry, all of them.

844
01:08:35,380 --> 01:08:37,120
Hassan: Each newsletter has five sections.

845
01:08:37,660 --> 01:08:41,520
Hassan: So four of those sections are content, and one section is an ad.

846
01:08:41,880 --> 01:08:43,260
Hassan: And it could be my ad.

847
01:08:43,420 --> 01:08:49,220
Hassan: So for the last maybe couple of weeks, I haven't taken any external ads, I just been advertising my own stuff.

848
01:08:50,300 --> 01:08:52,400
Hassan: But that slot is available for an ad.

849
01:08:52,500 --> 01:09:04,540
Hassan: And you kind of prime people to know that, look, this is a sponsored section or a presented by section, where I either get an affiliate deal, or, or, you know, I get a I get a cut if you click on this.

850
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:19,680
Hassan: So with the other ad with other newsletters, for my product, they're also used to seeing ads in that section, even though it's not, you know, it wasn't related to my product before, but now it's tangential to it.

851
01:09:19,740 --> 01:09:23,980
Hassan: And if they're not interested in it, they completely skip over it and just read the rest of it.

852
01:09:23,980 --> 01:09:37,640
Hassan: Like it's not, that's why I really like the newsletter model, I don't have to feel like I am intruding on someone's inbox to sell them something that they are absolutely not interested in, right?

853
01:09:37,820 --> 01:09:41,140
Hassan: With a newsletter, it just feels more natural overall.

854
01:09:41,400 --> 01:09:49,900
Hassan: So that was a long way to say yes, Christian, that I do cross cross sell, but you know, with with some contextual thought behind it.

855
01:09:50,420 --> 01:09:51,640
Krystian: Yeah, that sounds great.

856
01:09:51,740 --> 01:09:52,460
Krystian: Thank you so much.

857
01:09:52,800 --> 01:09:56,540
Krystian: Um, I have a, I have a kind of follow up question, a bit more radical.

858
01:09:56,940 --> 01:10:00,880
Krystian: Let's imagine that, you know, Daniel really likes DIY, right?

859
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:08,040
Krystian: But let's say that you one day get into the gardening, and you want to create some sort of product around gardening.

860
01:10:08,480 --> 01:10:12,120
Krystian: Would you still find a way to kind of cross promote it?

861
01:10:12,320 --> 01:10:14,700
Krystian: Maybe in that side hustle, so it would make sense.

862
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:19,520
Krystian: But, you know, how would you spin it for two other newsletters?

863
01:10:19,660 --> 01:10:26,400
Krystian: I'm just kind of really curious, if you take it into a completely, you know, over the board, extreme example.

864
01:10:27,180 --> 01:10:29,120
Hassan: So I'm sorry, maybe I didn't understand the question.

865
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:36,320
Hassan: So you're saying, if Daniel is interested in gardening, and if he subscribed to my newsletter, are you saying it the other way around?

866
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:38,280
Krystian: It was just a joke.

867
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:46,160
Krystian: Let's say that you are interested in gardening, and you create a product around around gardening, and you would like to cross promote it.

868
01:10:46,440 --> 01:10:49,340
Krystian: I'm just wondering if you would still find a way to do it.

869
01:10:49,540 --> 01:10:55,420
Krystian: Or if certain extreme examples, you would, you just wouldn't do it, it wouldn't make sense at all.

870
01:10:55,980 --> 01:11:09,800
Hassan: So I would still like, again, if it's in the PS, if it's in a section, that is that people are primed to seeing a sponsor, I would actually make it like, you know, people also want to connect with people too, right?

871
01:11:09,820 --> 01:11:13,320
Hassan: Like, there's, you know, I don't want to dismiss that aspect as well.

872
01:11:13,580 --> 01:11:18,240
Hassan: So they would want to know what you're up to, they're interested in following up, and you might get some people.

873
01:11:18,240 --> 01:11:34,860
Hassan: My concern is not so much the fact that it is a product that is completely unrelated to the topic, as much as it's about how many people who would have subscribed, or kept being subscribed, and now got unsubscribed because of this motion, right?

874
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:42,100
Hassan: Like, I don't want to alienate people by just putting something in there that is like completely unrelated.

875
01:11:42,760 --> 01:11:52,380
Hassan: But my gut feeling is, again, if I'm going with a four to one ratio, like I'm sending you an email, so let's take your gardening example, and you're subscribed to Leadership 8020.

876
01:11:53,240 --> 01:12:01,000
Hassan: You are, you know, the first two articles you're getting are really about how you're going to lead and how you're going to effectively manage and that sort of thing.

877
01:12:01,460 --> 01:12:04,100
Hassan: And then the third is about, oh, by the way, I love gardening.

878
01:12:04,500 --> 01:12:07,460
Hassan: I know this sounds silly, but I'm actually, you know, creating a product.

879
01:12:07,460 --> 01:12:11,020
Hassan: If you happen to love gardening as well, you know, check this out.

880
01:12:11,100 --> 01:12:11,860
Hassan: It's on a discount.

881
01:12:12,040 --> 01:12:13,360
Hassan: You get a 50% off.

882
01:12:13,480 --> 01:12:15,820
Hassan: And then the last couple of articles are about leadership.

883
01:12:16,600 --> 01:12:32,000
Hassan: So, like, I'm not too concerned in that particular situation to include that because, again, I'm giving them the four out of five value pieces of content, and they can just skip over that.

884
01:12:32,000 --> 01:12:37,320
Hassan: The flip side is if I just had what I had before, which is email lists, I didn't have a newsletter.

885
01:12:38,380 --> 01:12:41,820
Hassan: And now, and by the way, this happened to me too, like I write in different genres.

886
01:12:42,060 --> 01:12:45,500
Hassan: So one is leadership and management, but another, unrelated, is travel.

887
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:56,800
Hassan: So I travel every year back home, and we usually spend a couple of days in Europe, and I've written a series of books called, like, Rome in a Weekend with Two Kids, Paris in a Weekend with Two Kids, London in a Weekend with Two Kids.

888
01:12:56,800 --> 01:13:08,860
Hassan: And I never, ever highlighted those books or sent any emails to my management subscribers about those travel books, because I knew I was going to burn my list, right?

889
01:13:09,460 --> 01:13:11,440
Hassan: And so I left it just natural there.

890
01:13:11,440 --> 01:13:27,180
Hassan: Now, I might have just mentioned it here, like, just as a side comment, maybe someone sent me an email, but I wouldn't have the guts to send a mass email to, like, 9,000 subscribers for my business management books and try to sell them on a completely different domain,

891
01:13:27,260 --> 01:13:28,600
Hassan: because that just leaves a bad taste.

892
01:13:28,700 --> 01:13:30,360
Hassan: Again, this is my personal opinion.

893
01:13:30,940 --> 01:13:32,680
Hassan: People might have a different perspective on it.

894
01:13:34,320 --> 01:13:35,340
Krystian: Thank you.

895
01:13:35,400 --> 01:13:36,400
Krystian: That's been very useful.

896
01:13:36,860 --> 01:13:46,420
Nesters: I think there might be also a small chance that sometimes you can introduce your leadership story and actually somehow reference your other product.

897
01:13:46,560 --> 01:13:55,360
Nesters: So you wouldn't just cross-promote it as you launched it, but maybe some story that's related to that product comes up that you can include as an example in that newsletter.

898
01:13:55,540 --> 01:13:58,640
Nesters: It's almost one of those cheesy LinkedIn stories you hear about.

899
01:13:59,780 --> 01:14:01,380
Nesters: But not in that context.

900
01:14:01,540 --> 01:14:03,000
Nesters: I mean, an actual real story.

901
01:14:03,380 --> 01:14:03,600
Hassan: Sure.

902
01:14:04,740 --> 01:14:05,940
Hassan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

903
01:14:06,120 --> 01:14:10,040
Hassan: You can absolutely sort of weave it in anywhere.

904
01:14:10,180 --> 01:14:12,540
Hassan: There's always a lot of creative ways to kind of come up with that.

905
01:14:13,040 --> 01:14:26,940
Hassan: But, you know, again, speaking specifically of newsletters, that's where I'm saying it's okay if you kind of bake it into the content there when your focus is on providing value.

906
01:14:26,940 --> 01:14:40,200
Hassan: And then keep in mind, like, the difference between an email list and a newsletter is that when people sign up to your newsletter, they know, like, you are giving them the expectation that I'm going to email you once a week.

907
01:14:40,440 --> 01:14:44,280
Hassan: Like, the newsletter is sort of like, okay, now I'm going to get an email every week.

908
01:14:44,300 --> 01:14:47,400
Hassan: And in some cases, I even highlight it's a Saturday or it's Tuesday or Thursday.

909
01:14:47,580 --> 01:14:51,480
Hassan: Like, every Thursday, you're going to get one of my emails on this.

910
01:14:51,480 --> 01:14:57,020
Hassan: So, they sort of voluntarily sign up with that expectation.

911
01:14:57,720 --> 01:15:04,300
Hassan: And I even in the email, the first email they get is like, listen, if you just wanted the book and you don't want any more emails, please read that and subscribe.

912
01:15:04,520 --> 01:15:04,620
Hassan: Right?

913
01:15:04,680 --> 01:15:09,740
Hassan: Like, give them permission to say if you don't want any more emails, you know, that's fine.

914
01:15:09,800 --> 01:15:13,040
Hassan: I don't want you to be subscribed and ignore my emails.

915
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:16,800
Hassan: Because again, you know, I don't mention this, but it costs me money.

916
01:15:16,980 --> 01:15:22,000
Hassan: Like, every time I get more subscribers, I get bumped into a higher plan on Beehive.

917
01:15:22,440 --> 01:15:29,080
Hassan: So, if I'm not getting any value from those and they just completely ignore them, I'd rather not have them on the list.

918
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:37,460
Nesters: Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons I have trouble, like, quite trouble returning to also even writing my newsletter.

919
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:46,120
Nesters: Because once I stopped, like, even also writing it, I know that it's hard to revive newsletters you haven't sent to for a longer time.

920
01:15:46,120 --> 01:15:54,320
Nesters: And also, like, I know, as you said, like, newsletter still is in a way you, it's in a way like a product, but it's a continuous product.

921
01:15:54,500 --> 01:16:02,260
Nesters: They already subscribed with some expectations, like continuously receiving emails on some knowledge and on a specific topic, as you mentioned.

922
01:16:02,880 --> 01:16:07,460
Nesters: So, it's in a way, it's like a course, but it's continuously going through the time.

923
01:16:07,660 --> 01:16:11,980
Nesters: So, they have an expectation as well, what exact value they'll be receiving from it.

924
01:16:13,480 --> 01:16:14,360
Hassan: Exactly, exactly.

925
01:16:14,360 --> 01:16:20,340
Nesters: How do you even feel about if you're someone like just stop sending, like, how do you actually get back into sending?

926
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:30,420
Nesters: Because I think it's actually relevant for multiple people, maybe not here, but I know it happens to people that they stop, like, sending something and that they need to, like, revive the...

927
01:16:30,420 --> 01:16:32,520
Nesters: Obviously, maybe you don't have the experience with that.

928
01:16:32,640 --> 01:16:35,180
Nesters: But do you have, like, any idea?

929
01:16:35,180 --> 01:16:36,300
Hassan: Well, yeah, I do.

930
01:16:36,420 --> 01:16:45,700
Hassan: I mean, I... So, even with my three newsletters, I mean, I've had some weeks where I'm like, screw this, I don't want to write an email this week.

931
01:16:46,280 --> 01:16:51,720
Hassan: And I just don't, like, so, you know, the longest I think I've went is like maybe a couple of weeks in between.

932
01:16:52,040 --> 01:16:54,860
Hassan: So, that I don't think is enough time for someone to forget.

933
01:16:55,360 --> 01:17:00,960
Hassan: And, you know, here's the cool thing is there's a paid model for newsletters and there's a free model.

934
01:17:01,180 --> 01:17:04,760
Hassan: I opted for the free, meaning I don't have a paid tier.

935
01:17:04,880 --> 01:17:07,560
Hassan: Like, there's no, you know, everything is free.

936
01:17:07,920 --> 01:17:17,560
Hassan: So, there's no hard contractual obligation where if I don't feel like I want to write, like, if I go on vacation and I don't write for three weeks, I don't feel bad.

937
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:23,240
Hassan: And honestly, I think people get so much email these days that I don't think they'll even notice that you forgot to send something.

938
01:17:23,360 --> 01:17:25,120
Hassan: Like, my emails aren't a class.

939
01:17:25,480 --> 01:17:26,440
Hassan: So, I know you mentioned course.

940
01:17:26,560 --> 01:17:31,360
Hassan: I know you didn't really mean a course, but they're not a series.

941
01:17:31,740 --> 01:17:38,420
Hassan: Like, so, if you just read my latest edition, it's not like, oh, my God, I have to go back to season one and, you know, read everything.

942
01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:40,320
Hassan: It's like self-contained.

943
01:17:40,560 --> 01:17:45,200
Hassan: So, when you read things that I'm doing, you know, today, you're just going to get the latest about that.

944
01:17:48,160 --> 01:17:54,580
Hassan: So, my point that I'm trying to make is people are forgiving, usually, if you just skip a week or two.

945
01:17:55,180 --> 01:17:57,640
Hassan: And I, you know, my guess is 80% won't notice.

946
01:17:57,660 --> 01:18:02,280
Hassan: So, like, when you do send it, they might have just assumed that the last time you sent it, they didn't see it.

947
01:18:02,380 --> 01:18:02,580
Hassan: Right?

948
01:18:03,520 --> 01:18:06,700
Hassan: Or they just think it's just been a week when it's been three weeks.

949
01:18:07,280 --> 01:18:09,320
Hassan: So, like, I don't stress too much about it.

950
01:18:09,320 --> 01:18:19,960
Hassan: Now, having said that, if it's been a very long time, like you're saying months, since you've sent a weekly newsletter, and now you want to restart it, I wouldn't restart it cold.

951
01:18:20,360 --> 01:18:25,680
Hassan: I would literally just have that first email say something like, hey, I know it's been a while.

952
01:18:25,940 --> 01:18:27,060
Hassan: Here's what's been going on.

953
01:18:27,360 --> 01:18:29,820
Hassan: I'm now back on the saddle.

954
01:18:29,960 --> 01:18:31,560
Hassan: I do want to be sending those emails.

955
01:18:32,580 --> 01:18:34,060
Hassan: Here's what I'm going to be writing about.

956
01:18:34,280 --> 01:18:36,400
Hassan: Maybe even include something of high value.

957
01:18:37,220 --> 01:18:41,320
Hassan: And then just let them know that you're restarting those, you know, weekly emails.

958
01:18:41,880 --> 01:18:41,980
Nesters: Yeah.

959
01:18:42,160 --> 01:18:48,820
Nesters: And maybe even mention that you already have multiple posts scheduled or something that you're actually serious, like basically implying that it's coming.

960
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:50,080
Nesters: There's more coming right away.

961
01:18:50,160 --> 01:18:56,580
Nesters: So it's not like, you know, maybe one post comes back and then people be like, yeah, is there more coming?

962
01:18:56,800 --> 01:19:00,840
Nesters: So I guess that higher value being implied up front.

963
01:19:00,840 --> 01:19:01,560
Nesters: Exactly.

964
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:02,360
Nesters: Yeah.

965
01:19:02,540 --> 01:19:02,940
Hassan: Yeah.

966
01:19:03,020 --> 01:19:03,740
Hassan: Yeah, absolutely.

967
01:19:04,040 --> 01:19:04,440
Hassan: Absolutely.

968
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:08,220
Hassan: If anyone has any questions, feel free to raise your hand, by the way.

969
01:19:08,240 --> 01:19:11,080
Nesters: Yeah, I think Francesco actually wants to get the chance to speak.

970
01:19:11,580 --> 01:19:12,200
Hassan: Yeah, please.

971
01:19:12,460 --> 01:19:12,960
Francesco: Yes, yes.

972
01:19:12,980 --> 01:19:13,360
Francesco: No, no.

973
01:19:13,480 --> 01:19:14,360
Francesco: I'm listening.

974
01:19:14,500 --> 01:19:14,940
Francesco: I'm learning.

975
01:19:15,160 --> 01:19:16,600
Francesco: And I like it very much.

976
01:19:17,140 --> 01:19:23,800
Francesco: And, you know, about this comeback, about this, you know, coming back, writing newsletters, I saw a couple of examples.

977
01:19:23,800 --> 01:19:27,620
Francesco: And I want to say something about also what Christian asked.

978
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:47,620
Francesco: And, you know, when you build this audience, the value becomes so high at some point when you have all these subscribers and you have contracts maybe, and you have, you know, guests and you have like, I don't know if you are subscribed to Lenny's newsletter or some other big newsletters.

979
01:19:47,620 --> 01:20:00,000
Francesco: So the last thing you want to do is, you know, promote something that is about gardening when you're talking about AI or something like that, because the audience is really an asset is super, super, super important.

980
01:20:00,000 --> 01:20:04,420
Francesco: And I saw that also has some collaboration with some YouTubers and is the same.

981
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:10,520
Francesco: You know, when we were deciding about the merchandise, about this kind of things, they're super, super picky.

982
01:20:10,640 --> 01:20:18,360
Francesco: They don't launch things for the sake of launching them, but they really study what can work, what won't work and so forth.

983
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:32,680
Francesco: So when you have an audience, then you grow to respect it as much as possible, because in most cases, then it becomes really your source of income and so forth.

984
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:42,540
Francesco: And about what you were saying now, you know, if you're not writing for some time, I just talked to a guy that actually was doing that.

985
01:20:42,540 --> 01:20:56,940
Francesco: And I think the value, you know, it's better to stop and come back with some great content after two months than rather than just saying a couple of sending every week newsletter that doesn't have so much value.

986
01:20:57,180 --> 01:21:05,200
Francesco: So it's even better to be a bit irregular, a bit like, you know, two weeks, maybe three weeks and so forth.

987
01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:11,320
Francesco: But customers will really appreciate the value that is there because they will receive the email anyway.

988
01:21:11,520 --> 01:21:18,960
Francesco: It's not that they have to go somewhere or they will unsubscribe if they say, oh, I didn't receive the newsletter, I will unsubscribe.

989
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:19,820
Francesco: No, they don't care.

990
01:21:19,940 --> 01:21:24,140
Francesco: Like I was saying, it's emails, they receive tons of emails.

991
01:21:24,360 --> 01:21:26,160
Francesco: So if they don't receive it, they won't notice.

992
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:33,600
Francesco: But when they receive it and there's so much value, after some time, it could actually be better because they say, ah, I remember this.

993
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,460
Francesco: And now look at this great content.

994
01:21:36,900 --> 01:21:45,360
Francesco: So again, it could be actually a strategy, you know, to not be so regular, but just focusing on the content.

995
01:21:45,460 --> 01:21:55,700
Francesco: And if you don't have content to skip the week, like Nester skipped the app last week, so it's better to have something valuable to say and to show to the subscribers.

996
01:21:56,240 --> 01:22:05,120
Daniel: And I would say like as a consumer, I noticed this myself and some of my favorite newsletters are not regular.

997
01:22:05,240 --> 01:22:11,280
Daniel: For example, I subscribed to Jason Fleet's newsletter, which I know many of you here know and like.

998
01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:19,460
Daniel: And I'm actually, I'm just checking right now, for example, he took like a three month break, October to January, like he didn't post anything.

999
01:22:19,460 --> 01:22:23,820
Daniel: And I don't think I noticed, I'm just checking just like now out of curiosity.

1000
01:22:24,580 --> 01:22:32,740
Daniel: And the next time he came back on January, he didn't sort of apologize or say, hey, sorry, I've been gone or sorry I missed.

1001
01:22:33,300 --> 01:22:34,840
Daniel: Like, you know, there was nothing to say.

1002
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:35,800
Daniel: And he said nothing.

1003
01:22:36,960 --> 01:22:45,820
Daniel: But I think like, I think there's a signal, I think, which is Francesco is implying is that, you know, to me, it signals subconsciously that he's not writing on a schedule.

1004
01:22:45,820 --> 01:22:50,940
Daniel: So like, if I see something from him, it must be worth reading.

1005
01:22:51,100 --> 01:22:58,460
Daniel: He's not forcing himself to write just because it's Friday and he has to write something, which, again, I'm just mostly reflecting on my own behavior.

1006
01:22:58,680 --> 01:23:04,960
Daniel: And maybe this is just because I like him a lot or other reasons, but I pretty much almost always open what he sends.

1007
01:23:06,700 --> 01:23:13,780
Daniel: But yeah, I'm sure, again, like if you have sponsors and obligations and other things, it probably changes this whole dynamic.

1008
01:23:14,200 --> 01:23:16,300
Daniel: But this might be something interesting to people as well.

1009
01:23:16,920 --> 01:23:18,180
Daniel: By the way, this is only one example.

1010
01:23:18,480 --> 01:23:29,080
Daniel: I subscribe to a few other people, so I post even less regularly, like on the frequency of like, you know, once every three months or something like that, which I don't mind at all.

1011
01:23:31,640 --> 01:23:33,840
Hassan: Yeah, no, that's a great point, Daniel.

1012
01:23:33,880 --> 01:23:36,080
Hassan: I think it comes down to like expectations, right?

1013
01:23:36,100 --> 01:23:38,860
Hassan: That's exactly how we used to do before starting the newsletters.

1014
01:23:39,060 --> 01:23:46,740
Hassan: So I would have people sign up to my, you know, in my mind, the way I separate those two is email list versus newsletter.

1015
01:23:47,260 --> 01:23:56,500
Hassan: So email list is just giving someone permission to email you every once in a while about something that's going on, right?

1016
01:23:56,500 --> 01:24:00,080
Hassan: And then a newsletter is sort of like, there's a preset schedule.

1017
01:24:00,280 --> 01:24:04,860
Hassan: It could be once every week, it could be bi-weekly, it could be monthly, it could be every couple of months.

1018
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:10,660
Hassan: But I think it's really about the management of expectations at the point of signing up, right?

1019
01:24:10,780 --> 01:24:22,000
Hassan: So right now with Beehive and those newsletters, because I'm treating it as a business, I'm looking at those metrics and I do need to send those weekly emails.

1020
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:27,020
Hassan: Whereas I still have people who have bought, for example, my products on Gumroad, right?

1021
01:24:27,060 --> 01:24:30,060
Hassan: Like, I don't email those every week.

1022
01:24:30,500 --> 01:24:42,360
Hassan: But, you know, if I do have something major that is relevant to what they've bought in the past, maybe an upgrade, maybe something, then I would potentially send them just like one email, maybe a product announcement or launch.

1023
01:24:42,360 --> 01:24:50,060
Hassan: Or maybe if it's something interesting, I want to say, like when I got laid off, for example, I did email all my lists, kind of letting them know that, hey, here's what's going on.

1024
01:24:50,100 --> 01:24:52,340
Hassan: Maybe don't feel too bad if this happened to you.

1025
01:24:54,520 --> 01:25:00,680
Hassan: So, yeah, I mean, that's, I think in Jason Freed's example, I don't know if he actually calls it the newsletter.

1026
01:25:00,940 --> 01:25:03,020
Hassan: I don't know if he does, maybe he does or not.

1027
01:25:03,080 --> 01:25:10,860
Hassan: But if he does, I wouldn't expect that he would write, you know, like, you'll get a weekly email from me and then send one every three months.

1028
01:25:10,860 --> 01:25:12,960
Hassan: I think it's just more...

1029
01:25:12,960 --> 01:25:21,360
Daniel: Do you think your subscribers would be sort of disappointed or you feel like they would be let down if you don't write for like a month, for example?

1030
01:25:21,520 --> 01:25:24,540
Daniel: Like they would say, oh, this is not what I signed up for.

1031
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:28,260
Daniel: Because I'm doubtful, but maybe I'm wrong.

1032
01:25:28,420 --> 01:25:30,320
Daniel: So don't tease my...

1033
01:25:30,320 --> 01:25:31,560
Hassan: No, no, no, you're not wrong at all.

1034
01:25:31,660 --> 01:25:35,620
Hassan: Like, I don't think I was just... this is what I was responding back to Nester about.

1035
01:25:35,620 --> 01:25:40,920
Hassan: So it has happened to me, like a couple of weeks that went by and I didn't write.

1036
01:25:41,340 --> 01:25:43,040
Hassan: And like right now, you know, summer's coming up.

1037
01:25:43,040 --> 01:25:44,460
Hassan: I'll probably be out for like a month.

1038
01:25:44,540 --> 01:25:47,820
Hassan: I probably won't want to write while I'm spending time with family and all of that.

1039
01:25:48,100 --> 01:25:49,960
Hassan: I'm not going to feel guilty about it.

1040
01:25:50,040 --> 01:25:56,760
Hassan: And I don't think my subscribers... I don't think I'm going to get an email from someone saying, hey, I was expecting something on Tuesday.

1041
01:25:56,880 --> 01:25:57,340
Hassan: What the heck?

1042
01:25:57,620 --> 01:26:00,880
Hassan: Like, I don't think anyone's feelings are going to be hurt at all.

1043
01:26:01,440 --> 01:26:16,480
Hassan: What I was explaining to Nester is like, if you start the newsletter and you send an email every week, and then you go for like eight months, and then you want to restart every week, I would just let them know what's going on.

1044
01:26:16,540 --> 01:26:18,820
Hassan: Like, I would say, hey, I've been gone for like 10 months.

1045
01:26:18,880 --> 01:26:20,320
Hassan: Now I want to restart every week.

1046
01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:27,780
Hassan: But if you just want to send one email after those seven months and then go in hibernation mode for another three months, then that's fine, too.

1047
01:26:27,780 --> 01:26:32,080
Hassan: Like, you don't have to justify it or explain it.

1048
01:26:32,440 --> 01:26:33,000
Hassan: Just send it out.

1049
01:26:33,140 --> 01:26:34,640
Hassan: Again, it's about the expectation.

1050
01:26:34,940 --> 01:26:36,140
Hassan: Like, if they're getting a weekly email.

1051
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:38,960
Daniel: I'm not disagreeing, just playing the advocate.

1052
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:55,940
Daniel: But what's the downside of like, say, you have a newsletter, you're choosing a publication, and you go offline for eight months for whatever reason, you know, life happens, you get demotivated or you're busy or whatever, and you want to restart.

1053
01:26:57,420 --> 01:27:04,060
Daniel: Because I think Nesta's point was like, it's hard to restart a newsletter and it's sort of like trying to test that.

1054
01:27:04,840 --> 01:27:08,780
Daniel: Like, should it be hard or should it just say, I mean, just say nothing?

1055
01:27:09,000 --> 01:27:09,980
Daniel: Like, you know, just post another one.

1056
01:27:10,160 --> 01:27:11,080
Daniel: What's the harm there?

1057
01:27:11,100 --> 01:27:12,060
Daniel: Will it confuse people?

1058
01:27:12,660 --> 01:27:18,640
Daniel: Will people feel like they missed out or the updates were going to spam and they got confused?

1059
01:27:20,520 --> 01:27:26,500
Daniel: I imagine some people will wonder, oh, I haven't heard from Hasan for a long time.

1060
01:27:26,560 --> 01:27:27,360
Daniel: I wonder what's happened.

1061
01:27:27,640 --> 01:27:29,780
Daniel: But is that a bad thing?

1062
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:32,620
Daniel: Maybe they will reply and say, hey, well, I didn't hear from you for eight months.

1063
01:27:33,940 --> 01:27:48,180
Nesters: I do want to add extra context in the sense that I do believe, for example, Jason Freed's example is that most people technically who are subscribed to him, they know exactly who he is.

1064
01:27:48,180 --> 01:27:50,260
Nesters: They might see him on social media.

1065
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:52,440
Nesters: They might be using his product already.

1066
01:27:52,680 --> 01:28:01,500
Nesters: So even if he's gone for whatever month and not posting, people probably hear about him somewhere else.

1067
01:28:01,700 --> 01:28:02,940
Nesters: They definitely hear about him.

1068
01:28:03,300 --> 01:28:08,320
Daniel: Even if I didn't hear about him, I'm not going to forget who he is.

1069
01:28:08,500 --> 01:28:09,400
Daniel: I think that's what you're saying.

1070
01:28:09,500 --> 01:28:15,840
Nesters: What I'm saying is that some people who might subscribe to, let's say, my newsletter or something, and I wouldn't post for eight months.

1071
01:28:19,440 --> 01:28:28,980
Nesters: Anyway, there's a very big chance some of those people subscribed after seeing some random post or whatever I was doing or someone recommended me.

1072
01:28:29,120 --> 01:28:34,300
Nesters: They might have subscribed, but they have not seen a single of my posts ever since.

1073
01:28:34,460 --> 01:28:39,080
Nesters: So the next time I send it, it's irrelevant to them in the sense that they don't actually know who I am, basically.

1074
01:28:39,100 --> 01:28:41,620
Daniel: Yeah, they say, who is this last story guy?

1075
01:28:41,620 --> 01:28:45,060
Daniel: Yeah, that's the transcript.

1076
01:28:47,200 --> 01:28:52,580
Hassan: And just by the way, just to clarify, I know we're playing a little bit of devil's advocate there.

1077
01:28:52,980 --> 01:28:59,200
Hassan: So my understanding, Nester, is when you said it's hard, Daniel, I wasn't thinking hard as in from a customer standpoint.

1078
01:28:59,380 --> 01:29:04,100
Hassan: I was thinking Nester was referring to hard from a creator standpoint, meaning hard for him.

1079
01:29:04,100 --> 01:29:11,560
Nesters: I think it's both, but it's more like, yeah, it's hard from the creator standpoint, because how do you manage the expectations?

1080
01:29:11,780 --> 01:29:15,980
Nesters: And also the fact that they might have forgotten about you, they don't know who you are.

1081
01:29:16,080 --> 01:29:22,160
Nesters: Because, yeah, sure, in small bits, a lot of people who have subscribed, they know exactly who I am, because I have a lot of messages.

1082
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:30,540
Nesters: Maybe there's not much worry about that, except for the fact of reviving a newsletter and being like, oh, yeah, this is the thing you had forgotten about.

1083
01:29:30,540 --> 01:29:40,420
Nesters: Anyway, but is that more like the people who don't frequently interact with me or randomly decided to subscribe?

1084
01:29:40,520 --> 01:29:46,320
Nesters: Maybe they would be getting value from my posts, but at that moment, they might be like, who is this?

1085
01:29:46,380 --> 01:29:53,660
Nesters: Because it has happened to me, I have received newsletters after like a year from people and be like, who is this?

1086
01:29:53,660 --> 01:29:59,660
Daniel: It just happened to me yesterday, actually, incidentally, I received something.

1087
01:29:59,800 --> 01:30:04,560
Daniel: And, you know, I use Hey, so I have to actually approve things manually as well for things to land in my inbox.

1088
01:30:04,560 --> 01:30:06,540
Daniel: So I must have screened it in.

1089
01:30:07,000 --> 01:30:10,580
Daniel: And yeah, like, I couldn't remember at all, like, what is this thing?

1090
01:30:11,180 --> 01:30:19,660
Nesters: And the other thing with that happens is that I have seen people send you emails, and they only send the newsletters when they have a new product to sell.

1091
01:30:19,660 --> 01:30:23,820
Nesters: So the random email that arrives in your mailbox is actually some product there.

1092
01:30:23,880 --> 01:30:26,340
Nesters: So I'd be like, why am I getting offered this product?

1093
01:30:27,000 --> 01:30:30,980
Nesters: So that's part of the conversation, I guess, about those expectations, etc.

1094
01:30:31,200 --> 01:30:35,980
Nesters: Some people might actually feel like, oh, I have a newsletter, so I should send my new product to them.

1095
01:30:36,100 --> 01:30:43,720
Nesters: But honestly, the fact if you haven't sent frequent newsletters, you should actually, you know, adjust your strategy, warm them up, whatever.

1096
01:30:43,720 --> 01:30:47,300
Hassan: Yeah, I guess that's why I know Vlad has a question.

1097
01:30:47,420 --> 01:30:48,320
Hassan: We'll get to that in a second.

1098
01:30:48,600 --> 01:30:51,880
Hassan: But yeah, so that's, I think that's one of the drawbacks, right?

1099
01:30:51,940 --> 01:31:14,620
Hassan: It's more challenging for you than from your customer standpoint, that if you want to now leverage that subscriber list for some product launch or whatever, you're kind of starting back with a cold audience or semi-cold audience as opposed to someone who's already been used to you sending an email very frequently with adding value.

1100
01:31:14,820 --> 01:31:24,360
Hassan: So the next time you want to sell something, and you send a sales email, they're going to open it because they know who you are and didn't forget what has happened.

1101
01:31:24,360 --> 01:31:29,960
Hassan: So yeah, but it's definitely, again, like people will be forgiving.

1102
01:31:30,200 --> 01:31:38,980
Hassan: It's just when you go for way too long and you're not that well known, you probably need to rewarm them up with some sort of sequence before trying to sell.

1103
01:31:39,440 --> 01:31:42,220
Hassan: But should we take the question from Vlad?

1104
01:31:42,320 --> 01:31:44,220
Nesters: Yeah, we should definitely take the question.

1105
01:31:44,620 --> 01:31:44,900
Nesters: Vlad?

1106
01:31:44,900 --> 01:31:46,540
Vlad: Thank you.

1107
01:31:47,140 --> 01:31:49,780
Vlad: How do you avoid mistakes?

1108
01:31:50,840 --> 01:31:57,100
Vlad: Obviously, you would double check every link, you would read it over a few times.

1109
01:31:57,200 --> 01:32:07,820
Vlad: But sometimes when you send the email, after you send the email is when you see some error, or maybe you sent out the wrong link, or there's a annoying typo in there.

1110
01:32:07,820 --> 01:32:10,760
Vlad: So do you do like a 1% rollout?

1111
01:32:10,960 --> 01:32:18,140
Vlad: Or do you have a better group of people that you send the email to that can verify that everything's fine?

1112
01:32:22,380 --> 01:32:25,680
Hassan: Yeah, trust me, this happens even with books sometimes, right?

1113
01:32:25,740 --> 01:32:31,400
Hassan: Like I read it like 17 times, and then I publish it and like, oh, shit, like there's a typo in there that I didn't see.

1114
01:32:32,200 --> 01:32:34,360
Hassan: No, honestly, like I'm a one man show.

1115
01:32:34,540 --> 01:32:38,280
Hassan: Like I don't have, you know, someone to proofread it for me.

1116
01:32:38,860 --> 01:32:40,060
Hassan: AI can help, right?

1117
01:32:40,120 --> 01:32:44,240
Hassan: Like there's a lot of tools just be like, are there any mistakes in this?

1118
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:45,340
Hassan: So that could help.

1119
01:32:45,340 --> 01:32:49,560
Hassan: The links, I don't add a ton of links in my in every newsletter edition.

1120
01:32:49,840 --> 01:33:08,080
Hassan: But there is a preview button in Beehive where you can see it exactly how someone sees it in both an email and in on the web, because you can you can control, like when you publish, you can control what shows up on the web and what shows up in email using visibility sections too.

1121
01:33:09,140 --> 01:33:14,600
Hassan: So if I make a mistake for the web, obviously, I can just update that anytime.

1122
01:33:14,860 --> 01:33:16,500
Hassan: Like that can easily be changed.

1123
01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:17,700
Hassan: And it's instant.

1124
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:20,860
Hassan: With the email, obviously, once it's out, it's out.

1125
01:33:22,300 --> 01:33:23,880
Hassan: But look, minor mistakes.

1126
01:33:24,160 --> 01:33:28,640
Hassan: I don't, you know, it's, it's not a, it's not a deal breaker for me.

1127
01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:40,160
Hassan: Like, obviously, if it's, if it's something like, completely looks unprofessional, or I didn't, you know, there's 17 spelling mistakes and 22 grammar mistakes, it's just gonna look like sloppy, a sloppy job.

1128
01:33:40,780 --> 01:33:48,820
Hassan: But if it's a typo here or there, I don't feel like people, I don't feel like people will unsubscribe because of that.

1129
01:33:48,940 --> 01:33:54,000
Hassan: As a matter of fact, it actually might help you a little bit, because people would love to respond back and say, hey, you made a typo here.

1130
01:33:55,320 --> 01:33:58,480
Hassan: And that has happened with one of my articles.

1131
01:33:58,600 --> 01:33:59,320
Hassan: It wasn't a typo.

1132
01:33:59,400 --> 01:34:03,700
Hassan: It was just the, I think I said overestimate versus underestimate.

1133
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:04,980
Hassan: And it was the other way around.

1134
01:34:05,760 --> 01:34:08,020
Hassan: And they emailed me saying, I think that's what you meant.

1135
01:34:08,100 --> 01:34:08,780
Hassan: And I was like, you're right.

1136
01:34:08,860 --> 01:34:09,680
Hassan: So I updated the website.

1137
01:34:09,820 --> 01:34:12,640
Hassan: So I don't think it's, it's a big deal, Vlad.

1138
01:34:12,760 --> 01:34:15,180
Hassan: I mean, you can just double check everything.

1139
01:34:15,360 --> 01:34:19,820
Hassan: And if you keep finding mistakes, then you probably need to triple and quadruple check next time.

1140
01:34:20,960 --> 01:34:21,820
Nesters: Yeah, thank you.

1141
01:34:21,820 --> 01:34:30,960
Nesters: Yeah, I think AI is very good right now, by the way, for that, that you can even if you send a copy, test draft copy to yourself, you can just pass it to AI.

1142
01:34:31,260 --> 01:34:32,840
Nesters: AI can now check links as well.

1143
01:34:33,020 --> 01:34:38,740
Nesters: So you can just verify even with AI, just double check that it accesses the correct page, for example.

1144
01:34:39,380 --> 01:34:44,180
Nesters: I have done that with some actually just written content pieces as well, not just newsletters.

1145
01:34:44,260 --> 01:34:46,700
Nesters: So it's just like, let the AI just double check.

1146
01:34:47,340 --> 01:34:47,700
Hassan: Cool.

1147
01:34:47,900 --> 01:34:52,400
Hassan: So does it double check, Nester, does it double check the validity of the link based on the context?

1148
01:34:52,420 --> 01:34:54,200
Hassan: Or does it just check that the link works?

1149
01:34:54,740 --> 01:35:02,400
Nesters: Yeah, you can ask, like, can you like tell me what the link basically the page is about or something, the page title, or, you know, like, you can ask the context.

1150
01:35:02,600 --> 01:35:03,800
Nesters: So it gives the context the page.

1151
01:35:03,860 --> 01:35:05,840
Nesters: Okay, yeah, that's the page I want to actually.

1152
01:35:05,960 --> 01:35:06,340
Hassan: Got it.

1153
01:35:06,620 --> 01:35:06,980
Hassan: Yeah.

1154
01:35:06,980 --> 01:35:09,640
Nesters: I have done that multiple times with content pieces.

1155
01:35:09,860 --> 01:35:13,820
Nesters: Yeah, there's lastly, like, okay, check for obvious mistakes, check the link, basically, does it work?

1156
01:35:14,500 --> 01:35:28,220
Nesters: And that's, I think that's a good, good option nowadays that you can, like, at least do that quick double check, because I've happened to me with not maybe my newsletter, this has happened with previously with work with the, I mean, it's still work with some eCommerce businesses,

1157
01:35:28,320 --> 01:35:30,360
Nesters: but they have dealt with email as well.

1158
01:35:30,460 --> 01:35:36,960
Nesters: Like, it's very unfortunate, but sometimes it just happens that you send the wrong link, for example, the wrong product, it's featured, etc.

1159
01:35:36,960 --> 01:35:49,160
Nesters: Because the automations somehow selected, like, yeah, you either issue a correction, which sometimes, unfortunately, you need to do if that was an actual campaign, which is awkward to do.

1160
01:35:49,240 --> 01:35:50,840
Nesters: But sometimes you do need to do that.

1161
01:35:50,920 --> 01:36:00,840
Nesters: But for newsletter, I assume that unless it was literally that critically that specific signup link was broken for like a new course or something, I think you would just probably just ignore it, right?

1162
01:36:00,840 --> 01:36:02,600
Hassan: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1163
01:36:02,760 --> 01:36:06,900
Hassan: I mean, that's why the, you know, I always triple check the important links, right?

1164
01:36:06,920 --> 01:36:14,320
Hassan: Like the ones that, you know, if you're launching a product or whatever, because it's always embarrassing to send a follow up saying, whoops, this is the correct link.

1165
01:36:16,240 --> 01:36:19,760
Hassan: So, so yeah, it was just it's just good practice to check all of that.

1166
01:36:20,980 --> 01:36:23,980
Nesters: Um, yeah, I guess.

1167
01:36:24,100 --> 01:36:27,180
Nesters: Yeah, you mentioned you're running cohorts still, right?

1168
01:36:28,200 --> 01:36:30,820
Hassan: No, I was running cohorts.

1169
01:36:31,440 --> 01:36:33,260
Hassan: So I changed the model.

1170
01:36:33,660 --> 01:36:35,440
Hassan: I mean, so maybe this is a good thing to talk about.

1171
01:36:37,100 --> 01:36:39,560
Hassan: The course used to be cohort based.

1172
01:36:39,920 --> 01:36:44,440
Hassan: So it's, you know, eight sessions every month, four lectures and four Q&As.

1173
01:36:44,440 --> 01:36:49,820
Hassan: But I got sick and tired of having to always email people like speaking of emails, right?

1174
01:36:49,900 --> 01:36:52,420
Hassan: Like they always try to get someone into the cohort.

1175
01:36:52,600 --> 01:36:59,440
Hassan: I even had discussions with Daniel about it that after a while, like I don't have a ton of followers or subscribers.

1176
01:36:59,680 --> 01:37:03,400
Hassan: So after a while, you just kind of cycle through your entire list, right?

1177
01:37:04,340 --> 01:37:08,080
Hassan: So I was like, all right, what do I do to let this scale a little bit?

1178
01:37:08,200 --> 01:37:15,500
Hassan: You know, one of the top questions I always got was, well, why don't you offer a cheaper version that's just pre-recorded where people don't need help?

1179
01:37:16,960 --> 01:37:20,620
Hassan: And so I said, all right, I'll do the pre-recorded version.

1180
01:37:20,800 --> 01:37:23,920
Hassan: But then I also love and enjoy working with people directly.

1181
01:37:23,920 --> 01:37:31,200
Hassan: So instead of offering a group coaching cohort, I now changed the model where it's just one-on-one coaching, right?

1182
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:44,280
Hassan: So the packages are either just the pre-recorded version of the course, self-paced, actually getting up to speed on Kajabi now because the whole drip content and email system and all of that.

1183
01:37:44,280 --> 01:37:54,900
Hassan: And then the other version is you get the pre-recorded course, but then a couple of coaching calls with me one-on-one to work through strategy and all of that.

1184
01:37:55,260 --> 01:38:01,800
Hassan: And you get a few additional bonuses, like I'll help you do the search on the custom categories for bestseller status.

1185
01:38:02,020 --> 01:38:03,900
Hassan: I'll help you create a Write Like Me GPT.

1186
01:38:04,360 --> 01:38:06,340
Hassan: I'll do an outline review for you.

1187
01:38:06,400 --> 01:38:09,560
Hassan: Like there's just a couple of packages that's more expensive.

1188
01:38:10,760 --> 01:38:25,760
Hassan: So the reason why I did this, again, it's kind of tying into the newsletter strategy too, is because now, because it's a one-off as opposed to, you know, the class starts next Thursday and I have to fill up seats or if not, I'm just going to go with whoever signed up.

1189
01:38:26,140 --> 01:38:27,260
Hassan: Now it's a rolling basis.

1190
01:38:27,260 --> 01:38:38,520
Hassan: So now it's like in every newsletter edition going forward at the bottom, I'll have like a, before you go, here's how you can, you know, or when you're ready, here's how we can work together.

1191
01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:43,020
Hassan: You know, option one, you can buy my course and I can have discount codes and whatever.

1192
01:38:43,240 --> 01:38:46,840
Hassan: And then, or work one-on-one with me as well.

1193
01:38:46,880 --> 01:38:50,700
Hassan: And obviously the one-on-one sessions or coaching is going to be limited, right?

1194
01:38:50,720 --> 01:38:52,640
Hassan: Like I can't scale to like 50 people.

1195
01:38:54,200 --> 01:38:59,060
Hassan: So I would sort of, you know, have a counter there on that.

1196
01:38:59,840 --> 01:39:01,280
Hassan: And that just kind of helps.

1197
01:39:01,360 --> 01:39:13,160
Hassan: And then the idea behind that is even people who buy the pre-recorded course at certain points in time after week two, for example, they usually struggle just based on my experience with a cohort-based course.

1198
01:39:13,380 --> 01:39:17,420
Hassan: And then I'll have an upsell feature there for coaching if I have availability, right?

1199
01:39:17,420 --> 01:39:23,300
Hassan: Like that's the, that's sort of the plan, you know, going back to the beginning of this session with ads.

1200
01:39:23,400 --> 01:39:29,180
Hassan: Like I don't want to start running ads before I set up the whole infrastructure first to get some data.

1201
01:39:30,180 --> 01:39:34,440
Hassan: And then sort of have that as part of my workflow, right?

1202
01:39:34,460 --> 01:39:45,440
Hassan: So it's like just sending more emails, getting more subscribers, and then you're advertising your services at the bottom of every single email, as opposed to always sending marketing emails.

1203
01:39:46,720 --> 01:39:47,400
Nesters: Makes sense.

1204
01:39:48,320 --> 01:39:50,980
Hassan: Yeah, I'm happy to answer any questions you might have about that too.

1205
01:39:51,140 --> 01:39:52,520
Hassan: Like I'm, you know...

1206
01:39:53,680 --> 01:40:03,700
Nesters: Yeah, I was just also wondering whether cohorts are even working in like 2025, for example, because I know they kind of died off at some point, sort of.

1207
01:40:04,280 --> 01:40:07,660
Nesters: And I know you still ran courses on teaching.

1208
01:40:07,860 --> 01:40:11,800
Nesters: I know there were webinars, I believe, on cohorts like last year, I believe.

1209
01:40:12,380 --> 01:40:14,340
Nesters: I don't remember specifics.

1210
01:40:14,340 --> 01:40:21,480
Hassan: Yeah, I mean, look, you can always look at what the macro trends are with the industries.

1211
01:40:21,700 --> 01:40:22,040
Hassan: Absolutely.

1212
01:40:22,300 --> 01:40:24,700
Hassan: I think there are some downward trends.

1213
01:40:25,000 --> 01:40:33,380
Hassan: But I genuinely feel like if you are adding value, if you're specific and niche enough, like now, for example, this course, I'm happy to share numbers, right?

1214
01:40:33,440 --> 01:40:41,080
Hassan: I mentioned, it's 500 bucks for the pre-recorded course and 1500 with the coaching package.

1215
01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:45,220
Hassan: But I'm giving like $100 off discount for both, right?

1216
01:40:45,340 --> 01:40:48,460
Hassan: So you get it for 400 and then 1400 for the other one.

1217
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:54,700
Hassan: And like, honestly, I did not feel like anyone's going to be interested that much in the pre-recorded course.

1218
01:40:54,800 --> 01:40:57,240
Hassan: First of all, it's higher priced than your average, right?

1219
01:40:57,300 --> 01:40:59,680
Hassan: Like usually you get like a couple of hundred bucks.

1220
01:40:59,680 --> 01:41:04,920
Hassan: I know Justin Welch, you know, did 150 for a very long time and even dropped it to 99.

1221
01:41:05,180 --> 01:41:08,500
Hassan: So I felt like this is probably not gonna work.

1222
01:41:10,080 --> 01:41:17,460
Hassan: But I did end up getting like seven or eight pre-sells on the pre-recorded and I got two with the coaching as well.

1223
01:41:17,800 --> 01:41:19,020
Hassan: This is before I launched it.

1224
01:41:19,060 --> 01:41:21,920
Hassan: Like I'm still working on the landing page design.

1225
01:41:22,140 --> 01:41:24,800
Hassan: I'm still on the back end working with Kajabi and all of that.

1226
01:41:26,120 --> 01:41:30,600
Hassan: And I'm happy to offline send you the working version of the landing page if you'd just like to see it.

1227
01:41:30,720 --> 01:41:32,100
Hassan: I really went all in.

1228
01:41:32,360 --> 01:41:35,940
Hassan: Like I used to sell so many different courses, different packages here and there.

1229
01:41:36,140 --> 01:41:45,620
Hassan: I just decided I'm going to take them all and put them in one master flagship course, because it's just going to make life a little bit easier for me to manage all of that.

1230
01:41:45,680 --> 01:41:49,120
Hassan: And plus, it makes it easier to update the content over time.

1231
01:41:52,060 --> 01:42:03,660
Hassan: So what I was trying to say is, right before I even thought about this, many people I talked to were like, yeah, pre-recorded courses.

1232
01:42:03,900 --> 01:42:04,620
Hassan: I don't know, man.

1233
01:42:05,420 --> 01:42:08,640
Hassan: It's just overwhelming the amount of courses that are out there.

1234
01:42:08,940 --> 01:42:14,260
Hassan: You get them on Udemy for nine bucks, which I sell on Udemy, so I know that marketplace well.

1235
01:42:14,260 --> 01:42:24,680
Hassan: So going to like a $400 or $500 pre-recorded course, even though it comes with a ton of bonuses too, felt like really high and I might not get any sales.

1236
01:42:25,520 --> 01:42:27,580
Hassan: But it did look promising, right?

1237
01:42:27,600 --> 01:42:30,440
Hassan: Like seven to eight pre-sales there.

1238
01:42:31,060 --> 01:42:38,560
Hassan: And then a couple on the coaching just gave me enough validation to say, all right, there is a potential market there for that.

1239
01:42:38,600 --> 01:42:42,380
Daniel: And the pre-sales were for the full price, like $400?

1240
01:42:43,700 --> 01:42:44,760
Hassan: Say that again, Daniel.

1241
01:42:44,860 --> 01:42:45,600
Hassan: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that.

1242
01:42:45,620 --> 01:42:53,340
Daniel: So the number of pre-sales you made were for the full price that you plan on launching with?

1243
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:54,060
Nesters: $100 off.

1244
01:42:54,060 --> 01:42:57,660
Daniel: No worries.

1245
01:42:57,960 --> 01:43:03,280
Hassan: So it's $497 and I gave it to them for $397.

1246
01:43:03,700 --> 01:43:06,100
Hassan: And then the other one is $1,500 down to $1,400.

1247
01:43:06,580 --> 01:43:08,100
Hassan: So just $100.

1248
01:43:08,400 --> 01:43:14,060
Hassan: In return, I get like, because I'm learning Kajabi and there's just a lot of buttons and all of that.

1249
01:43:14,280 --> 01:43:18,680
Hassan: So I'm like, look, just bear with me because I'm not going to get you a module every week.

1250
01:43:19,380 --> 01:43:22,820
Hassan: In some cases, it might push out a little bit because I'm creating all this content.

1251
01:43:22,820 --> 01:43:29,760
Hassan: So that's the reason behind the discount with a pre-launch.

1252
01:43:30,880 --> 01:43:31,820
Daniel: Makes sense.

1253
01:43:32,920 --> 01:43:36,200
Nesters: Yeah, it sounds like you got a decent validation, though.

1254
01:43:36,300 --> 01:43:40,480
Nesters: At least 7.8 still sounds good for the price, $397.

1255
01:43:41,280 --> 01:43:53,640
Nesters: Because I know that obviously, these days, it's much harder to, I guess, feel like you need to kind of be... I assumed in your course, if I check the landing page later, obviously, it probably offered tons of extra value, right?

1256
01:43:53,640 --> 01:44:01,420
Nesters: As you mentioned, because you're doing the combination of everything in one, like some kind of master version of the course.

1257
01:44:01,820 --> 01:44:02,840
Hassan: Yeah, exactly.

1258
01:44:03,120 --> 01:44:12,280
Hassan: It's probably around seven hours total and it's got like nine different add-on bonuses with GPTs and all of that.

1259
01:44:12,420 --> 01:44:16,980
Hassan: So yeah, the value there is there, I think.

1260
01:44:19,260 --> 01:44:22,340
Hassan: So yeah, I'm happy to get your feedback, too, on this after.

1261
01:44:22,340 --> 01:44:33,020
Nesters: Yeah, I wonder, like, do you feel like you still would need... because, okay, you combine this flagship product, let's say, in one, so it simplifies your basically everything.

1262
01:44:33,720 --> 01:44:39,360
Nesters: Do you still feel like you want to have a cheaper option as, you know, the value ladder stuff?

1263
01:44:39,480 --> 01:44:49,540
Nesters: Do you have a cheaper option that they can go through and they feel like they want to upgrade to the next level from that small, I don't know, I guess book is one of the...

1264
01:44:49,540 --> 01:44:54,280
Hassan: Yeah, I was just about to say, it's not a cheaper version, it's actually a free version.

1265
01:44:54,520 --> 01:45:00,940
Hassan: So when you sign up to the newsletter, you get the book, which many have actually used to write their own books, too.

1266
01:45:01,080 --> 01:45:11,780
Hassan: So that is literally, you know, the playbook, but it doesn't include a lot of the AI components and, you know, just showing you my workflow of how I write fairly quickly.

1267
01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:20,820
Hassan: Again, you know, there's a lot of cringe factor with the AI stuff, because, you know, people feel like, all right, it's just a button and you're writing.

1268
01:45:21,180 --> 01:45:23,640
Hassan: But it's not that, you're really using it as an assistant.

1269
01:45:23,640 --> 01:45:28,220
Hassan: And there's a way in which you start using AI to write in your own voice, right?

1270
01:45:28,260 --> 01:45:30,220
Hassan: Like you use your preload.

1271
01:45:30,460 --> 01:45:40,940
Hassan: For those of you who know what a custom GPT is, it's basically you build a GPT with prior PDFs of your own content.

1272
01:45:41,780 --> 01:45:44,240
Hassan: I load it with four or five of my other books.

1273
01:45:44,760 --> 01:45:50,280
Hassan: And I explained to the GPT that I'd like you to use this as a knowledge base so that you write in my own style.

1274
01:45:51,000 --> 01:45:55,000
Hassan: And then I start using that GPT to write my next book, right?

1275
01:45:55,040 --> 01:45:56,640
Hassan: But you still do a lot of the heavy lifting.

1276
01:45:56,640 --> 01:46:02,160
Hassan: I mean, it's not going to take two seconds to write the book.

1277
01:46:02,260 --> 01:46:04,940
Hassan: It's still going to take weeks to write it.

1278
01:46:05,220 --> 01:46:07,640
Hassan: And yeah, a few people have went through it.

1279
01:46:07,720 --> 01:46:09,960
Hassan: Actually, we had Michael von Feld.

1280
01:46:10,060 --> 01:46:11,900
Hassan: I don't know if he's part of Small Bets.

1281
01:46:11,940 --> 01:46:12,520
Hassan: I'm not sure.

1282
01:46:12,680 --> 01:46:21,140
Hassan: But he actually got his first book published in literally four weeks and hit the bestseller list in four categories and got a ton of leads.

1283
01:46:21,140 --> 01:46:28,540
Hassan: He's a lawyer and he sells a course about exams, like in Germany, how to prepare for the law exam.

1284
01:46:29,220 --> 01:46:30,560
Hassan: So it's pretty cool stuff.

1285
01:46:32,600 --> 01:46:32,960
Nesters: Impressive.

1286
01:46:33,660 --> 01:46:37,960
Nesters: Yeah, I guess that's it.

1287
01:46:38,260 --> 01:46:44,680
Nesters: So you don't feel like there will be any middle ground between going from a book to a flagship course?

1288
01:46:46,600 --> 01:46:51,080
Hassan: No, I mean, the pre-recorded version is the middle ground, I guess.

1289
01:46:51,080 --> 01:46:51,680
Nesters: Yeah, okay.

1290
01:46:51,880 --> 01:46:56,500
Nesters: There's a pre-recorded one and then the one-on-one coaching.

1291
01:46:57,080 --> 01:46:58,520
Hassan: Yeah, and you guys inspired me.

1292
01:46:58,560 --> 01:47:06,620
Hassan: Actually, the conversation we had, Daniel obviously spearheaded this, but I know Francesco has done this as well, like the unlimited coaching.

1293
01:47:06,620 --> 01:47:09,340
Hassan: I just put a placeholder there, too.

1294
01:47:10,200 --> 01:47:16,880
Hassan: Last year, we were talking about outcome-based unlimited coaching versus just open-based.

1295
01:47:17,640 --> 01:47:30,960
Hassan: And so that gave me the inspiration that, okay, there might be a small market there for someone to pay a bigger multiple to work unlimited number of hours until you get your book published.

1296
01:47:31,860 --> 01:47:37,380
Hassan: So there might be another higher price point there as well.

1297
01:47:38,100 --> 01:47:42,480
Hassan: I added something just as a placeholder working with a designer, but I'm not sure if I'm going to do that yet.

1298
01:47:42,900 --> 01:47:43,500
Hassan: We'll see.

1299
01:47:43,500 --> 01:47:50,320
Nesters: Yeah, I mean, sounds like maybe a few people could still go for that, right?

1300
01:47:50,360 --> 01:47:55,600
Nesters: Because they actually want the full zero-to-one, basically, the full funnel.

1301
01:47:58,100 --> 01:48:01,320
Nesters: It sounds like a possibility that could exist for you as well.

1302
01:48:02,720 --> 01:48:06,140
Nesters: That's obviously mostly like whether they're willing to pay that money for it.

1303
01:48:06,140 --> 01:48:18,460
Nesters: And I assume there's always some people who are willing to do it as long as they trust that you are the right person for them to, basically, for you to help them to publish their book.

1304
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:25,000
Nesters: Which I assume it's your amount of books you also have published, then you would be one of the candidates.

1305
01:48:25,000 --> 01:48:28,940
Nesters: I would be like, yeah, you're the guy who could help them, for example, publish a book.

1306
01:48:28,940 --> 01:48:33,100
Nesters: So I guess that's also part of your newsletter growth, right?

1307
01:48:33,140 --> 01:48:33,740
Nesters: With ads, etc.

1308
01:48:33,820 --> 01:48:41,100
Nesters: I know that Francesco already left, but if you continue growing with ads, obviously also getting a little bit different audiences.

1309
01:48:41,360 --> 01:48:49,080
Nesters: And you'll see maybe some of those audiences will actually be the ones who become customers of the most expensive products.

1310
01:48:49,800 --> 01:48:50,320
Hassan: Yeah, yeah.

1311
01:48:50,440 --> 01:48:52,640
Hassan: Look, I mean, there is a market for it.

1312
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:53,180
Hassan: I don't know.

1313
01:48:53,280 --> 01:48:58,280
Hassan: I haven't received... I mean, there was one person who was interested at one point, but then it didn't work out for them because they had to travel.

1314
01:48:58,280 --> 01:49:07,940
Hassan: But then, I know for a fact, there's a lot of companies, if you've heard of Scribe or Scribe Media, they're like a publisher.

1315
01:49:08,720 --> 01:49:16,260
Hassan: And, you know, if you check out their pricing page, it goes up to like $60,000 working with them just to write and publish.

1316
01:49:16,360 --> 01:49:17,300
Hassan: And it's self-published.

1317
01:49:17,400 --> 01:49:22,320
Hassan: It's not even, you know, it's not a traditionally published book.

1318
01:49:22,320 --> 01:49:23,460
Hassan: So, there is a market.

1319
01:49:23,600 --> 01:49:26,860
Hassan: I mean, there's a lot of business executives that have no time.

1320
01:49:27,160 --> 01:49:30,340
Hassan: I mean, not that they don't have time, like they have more money than time.

1321
01:49:30,400 --> 01:49:39,320
Hassan: So, they'd rather, instead of them learning everything, they'd rather have just a Zoom call, sit down with someone and have them show everything to them behind the scenes and what they need to do.

1322
01:49:39,320 --> 01:49:44,580
Nesters: Yeah, and for them, it might be a little bit of an ego thing as well that they actually want to have their own book published.

1323
01:49:45,100 --> 01:49:46,320
Hassan: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

1324
01:49:46,560 --> 01:49:47,340
Hassan: I mean, that's my thing.

1325
01:49:47,440 --> 01:49:54,860
Hassan: I mean, you know, if you notice, I avoid putting in numbers on my selling.

1326
01:49:54,960 --> 01:50:00,120
Hassan: So, when I'm selling this particular course or usually anything else, there's nothing wrong with this, right?

1327
01:50:00,120 --> 01:50:00,840
Hassan: I'm not judging.

1328
01:50:01,040 --> 01:50:05,480
Hassan: But I avoid writing how much money I've made from my books.

1329
01:50:05,780 --> 01:50:10,880
Hassan: And the reason why is because I'm focused on the business card on steroids effect.

1330
01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:15,720
Hassan: Meaning that when you're writing a book, you're not really... Yes, the money is great.

1331
01:50:15,840 --> 01:50:17,220
Hassan: You want it to be profitable.

1332
01:50:18,160 --> 01:50:22,360
Hassan: But I'm more about the making more money because of your book than from your book.

1333
01:50:22,820 --> 01:50:36,000
Hassan: Meaning the opportunities that you get that the book opens up for you, if you do it the right way, are going to be much more lucrative than the royalties that you get from the book itself, right?

1334
01:50:36,000 --> 01:50:38,600
Hassan: So, to me, it's a little bit of a different philosophy.

1335
01:50:38,740 --> 01:50:43,120
Hassan: And the market I'm going after is not the money-making market from books, right?

1336
01:50:43,180 --> 01:50:45,460
Hassan: Like, that's not... Again, nothing wrong with it.

1337
01:50:45,780 --> 01:50:46,540
Hassan: No judging.

1338
01:50:47,600 --> 01:50:50,040
Hassan: It's just not what I focus on.

1339
01:50:50,140 --> 01:51:03,840
Hassan: It's more about using it as, again, business card on steroids to give you other opportunities like consulting or speaking or even, you know, course creation or anything like that as training workshops.

1340
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:08,600
Hassan: Because that has a much, much higher return on investment, right?

1341
01:51:08,800 --> 01:51:14,800
Hassan: Like, one speaking engagement can get you more than an entire lifetime royalties of a book, literally.

1342
01:51:16,900 --> 01:51:19,320
Hassan: So, it's a different market is what I'm after.

1343
01:51:19,420 --> 01:51:23,800
Hassan: It's not just, you know, using KDP as a cash cow.

1344
01:51:23,800 --> 01:51:31,220
Nesters: I think I look at it the same way, the books and courses as well, because I have a course that I'm working on.

1345
01:51:31,320 --> 01:51:37,760
Nesters: Yeah, people are expecting, like, I'm not launching this stuff, but there is something I have prepared content, some content.

1346
01:51:38,740 --> 01:51:41,740
Nesters: I even wanted to, at some point, launch a book.

1347
01:51:42,200 --> 01:51:47,020
Nesters: I mean, publish a book, because I do have chapters written.

1348
01:51:47,380 --> 01:51:48,320
Nesters: It's just not complete.

1349
01:51:48,480 --> 01:51:49,460
Nesters: It's not put together.

1350
01:51:49,660 --> 01:51:52,760
Nesters: But I do have chapters written, which is embarrassing to always...

1351
01:51:52,760 --> 01:51:55,460
Nesters: like, I can't admit that I do actually have work done on it.

1352
01:51:55,540 --> 01:51:56,880
Nesters: I just haven't published it, basically.

1353
01:51:57,240 --> 01:51:58,700
Nesters: But there are chapters written.

1354
01:51:58,900 --> 01:52:02,480
Nesters: There's quite a lot of content written for a book that I wanted to publish as well.

1355
01:52:02,580 --> 01:52:10,580
Nesters: And the reason I actually wanted to publish is mostly that, partially, it's because it's additional, like, social proof for consulting.

1356
01:52:10,860 --> 01:52:16,980
Nesters: You just mentioned you have a book published, and they might find, maybe they even find out about you because of the book.

1357
01:52:16,980 --> 01:52:19,000
Nesters: Because you're the author of this book.

1358
01:52:19,040 --> 01:52:19,840
Nesters: Who is this person?

1359
01:52:19,960 --> 01:52:23,860
Nesters: They would check you out, and they'd be like, maybe book a consultation or something.

1360
01:52:24,020 --> 01:52:36,380
Nesters: I know there's multiple mechanisms it works, and even for a course, I kind of, in a way, feel like it can be an additional social proof, plus a mechanism, for example, for people to book consultations with you as well.

1361
01:52:36,480 --> 01:52:40,620
Nesters: Not just it being the vehicle for making money.

1362
01:52:40,740 --> 01:52:45,220
Nesters: Because for my SEO course, I wouldn't expect, actually, to make that much, to get a lot of sales.

1363
01:52:45,220 --> 01:52:52,460
Nesters: But I'd be like, if I would get a total of 100 sales, I would already be happy, even if it's a bad hourly rate for my time investment, let's say.

1364
01:52:52,700 --> 01:52:57,840
Nesters: I would still be happy, because I'd be like, okay, it's more of a passive income strategy, partially.

1365
01:52:58,100 --> 01:53:02,780
Nesters: And then the second part is that it's just additional, like, the social proof aspect.

1366
01:53:03,940 --> 01:53:04,780
Hassan: Oh, 100%.

1367
01:53:04,780 --> 01:53:05,200
Nesters: Yeah.

1368
01:53:05,640 --> 01:53:07,200
Nesters: I do believe, actually, with you.

1369
01:53:07,260 --> 01:53:09,180
Nesters: I agree with your philosophy on it.

1370
01:53:09,920 --> 01:53:23,440
Hassan: Yeah, I mean, this is, you know, it's, you know, the fact that you can get a potential consulting engagement, that's usually worth six figures, because if you're, you've written a book about it, it's underrated.

1371
01:53:23,600 --> 01:53:25,680
Hassan: Like, I've seen it happen multiple times.

1372
01:53:26,400 --> 01:53:29,380
Hassan: I mean, I personally experienced it, even just media attention.

1373
01:53:29,480 --> 01:53:30,920
Hassan: Like, I don't have any connections.

1374
01:53:30,920 --> 01:53:37,460
Hassan: I'm not like, I don't have, like, hidden back doors with any sort of, you know, people in high places.

1375
01:53:37,460 --> 01:53:49,540
Hassan: But I've been featured in the Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg, Forbes, a couple of other well-known media, like Entrepreneur Magazine, all of it just because of my books.

1376
01:53:49,700 --> 01:53:58,400
Hassan: Like, literally, just people, like, the first email I got from the Wall Street Journal was someone saying, it was a columnist that said, hey, I read your book about virtual teams, and I thought it was excellent.

1377
01:53:58,720 --> 01:54:00,540
Hassan: Will you be okay with a 20-minute interview?

1378
01:54:00,540 --> 01:54:07,080
Hassan: And this was back in the day where it was actually in the print version, too, with a picture of my home office.

1379
01:54:07,320 --> 01:54:08,220
Hassan: And it was really cool.

1380
01:54:08,440 --> 01:54:11,840
Hassan: Like, that wasn't, again, I thought it was spam.

1381
01:54:11,980 --> 01:54:12,820
Hassan: I didn't even know.

1382
01:54:12,860 --> 01:54:13,760
Hassan: I didn't give a heads up.

1383
01:54:14,060 --> 01:54:16,220
Hassan: It was just someone randomly saw my book on Amazon.

1384
01:54:16,480 --> 01:54:17,840
Hassan: They were writing an article about this.

1385
01:54:17,920 --> 01:54:19,460
Hassan: They liked it, and they reached out, right?

1386
01:54:19,920 --> 01:54:26,800
Hassan: So, and that opened up door, you know, opportunities for other things as well and talks and what have you.

1387
01:54:27,400 --> 01:54:28,540
Hassan: So, yeah, absolutely.

1388
01:54:28,680 --> 01:54:29,880
Hassan: It differentiates you, right?

1389
01:54:29,940 --> 01:54:36,440
Hassan: Like, it just sets you apart, and people can read your stuff before having to interact with you.

1390
01:54:36,540 --> 01:54:42,820
Hassan: So, they can get a little bit of insight into the way you think and the way you write and the content that you share.

1391
01:54:43,500 --> 01:54:47,260
Nesters: Yeah, I think I would really appreciate, actually, a book on small bets.

1392
01:54:47,480 --> 01:54:49,320
Nesters: I don't know if Daniel would ever get to it.

1393
01:54:49,320 --> 01:54:58,400
Nesters: Whether it's about community building or it's about the small bets mindset, like, I feel like that would be, like, a really huge add-on.

1394
01:54:59,180 --> 01:54:59,480
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

1395
01:55:00,400 --> 01:55:00,980
Daniel: It's there.

1396
01:55:01,180 --> 01:55:04,820
Daniel: On the radar, I don't know if it will happen, but I think about it occasionally.

1397
01:55:07,820 --> 01:55:10,160
Hassan: Yeah, I think that would be a great idea, actually.

1398
01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:13,080
Hassan: Like, a book with that title, Daniel, would be phenomenal.

1399
01:55:13,880 --> 01:55:15,640
Hassan: Small bets and case studies.

1400
01:55:15,680 --> 01:55:15,940
Hassan: Cool.

1401
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:17,500
Nesters: We'll see.

1402
01:55:17,500 --> 01:55:27,400
Nesters: Yeah, because I always felt like, not even the book scenario for this, I always felt like it would be nice to actually feature separately, like, community members as well.

1403
01:55:27,460 --> 01:55:33,960
Nesters: And that wouldn't be necessarily maybe a book, but that would be more like some kind of feature column, etc.

1404
01:55:34,160 --> 01:55:44,500
Nesters: thing, where you get both the ideas from the community and the people featured in some kind of written content.

1405
01:55:45,180 --> 01:55:49,060
Nesters: Just a lot of interesting aspects, I guess.

1406
01:55:49,140 --> 01:55:58,160
Nesters: But I would definitely would want to actually read a book on the small bets or on the community whole aspect as well.

1407
01:55:58,740 --> 01:55:59,700
Nesters: Hopefully, it's coming.

1408
01:55:59,860 --> 01:56:01,700
Nesters: Hopefully, there's two books coming or three.

1409
01:56:02,100 --> 01:56:07,360
Daniel: The community part is interesting, actually, because that's actually probably something that's not... there isn't much written about.

1410
01:56:09,320 --> 01:56:11,920
Daniel: Yeah, we'll see.

1411
01:56:12,060 --> 01:56:12,200
Daniel: We'll see.

1412
01:56:12,280 --> 01:56:17,380
Daniel: It's like opportunity cost, like Hassan said before, like you don't... lighting takes time.

1413
01:56:18,360 --> 01:56:22,020
Daniel: And time is not infinite, unfortunately.

1414
01:56:23,380 --> 01:56:25,760
Daniel: So, something has to give.

1415
01:56:26,060 --> 01:56:27,480
Daniel: So, we'll see.

1416
01:56:28,980 --> 01:56:34,080
Daniel: Anyway, guys, I'm going to have to allow myself to keep yapping, but I have another call.

1417
01:56:35,800 --> 01:56:39,860
Daniel: So, catching up with everyone, Hassan, Nester, cheers.

1418
01:56:40,000 --> 01:56:40,880
Hassan: Likewise, likewise.

1419
01:56:40,960 --> 01:56:41,620
Hassan: This was fun.

1420
01:56:41,720 --> 01:56:43,040
Hassan: Thank you so much for hosting, guys.

1421
01:56:43,180 --> 01:56:45,540
Hassan: And we'll catch up in Campfire.

1422
01:56:46,160 --> 01:56:48,520
Nesters: Yeah, we'll catch up in Campfire.

1423
01:56:49,180 --> 01:56:59,400
Nesters: I mean, we're probably going to be done wrapping it up if both of our speakers are leaving unless Vlad has another comment to add and ask a question about...

1424
01:56:59,400 --> 01:57:07,820
Nesters: By the way, next week we're actually having... most likely we do have a guest actually speaking more about ads and creatives again.

1425
01:57:09,380 --> 01:57:20,140
Nesters: We already talked a little bit about ads and creatives in the context of newsletters more, but there will be a guest known in the indie space talk a little bit about ads next week.

1426
01:57:20,440 --> 01:57:20,900
Hassan: Cool.

1427
01:57:21,180 --> 01:57:22,200
Hassan: I'll be looking forward to that.

1428
01:57:22,200 --> 01:57:25,400
Nesters: Yeah, so that should be fun.

1429
01:57:25,520 --> 01:57:29,200
Nesters: But the time zone will be different, so I don't know if we'll make it.

1430
01:57:30,440 --> 01:57:33,160
Nesters: The Eastern US might have a little bit of a bad time zone.

1431
01:57:33,540 --> 01:57:34,200
Nesters: We'll see.

1432
01:57:37,020 --> 01:57:37,720
Hassan: Sounds good.

1433
01:57:37,820 --> 01:57:38,580
Hassan: Thanks a lot, everyone.

1434
01:57:38,700 --> 01:57:39,260
Hassan: Appreciate it.

1435
01:57:39,280 --> 01:57:43,720
Hassan: And make sure you check out smallbets.com if you're not part of that community.

1436
01:57:43,720 --> 01:57:44,260
Nesters: Exactly.

1437
01:57:45,100 --> 01:57:56,820
Nesters: And also theweeklyyap.com which you can find on my profile for the recordings from this space later will be published and including the transcript in case you don't have time to listen to it.

1438
01:57:56,960 --> 01:58:08,940
Nesters: And also the previous ones that we have had like with Daigo and Daniel and also two community member features aside from Hasan have been published there as well.

1439
01:58:09,320 --> 01:58:10,000
Nesters: Quite inspiring.

1440
01:58:10,000 --> 01:58:12,260
Hassan: So yeah.

1441
01:58:12,580 --> 01:58:12,680
Hassan: Wonderful.

1442
01:58:13,480 --> 01:58:18,260
Nesters: Oh, by the way, we got Orly as a speaker.

1443
01:58:18,460 --> 01:58:19,140
Nesters: Did he have a question?

1444
01:58:19,880 --> 01:58:22,520
Nesters: I didn't realize whether he had a question or not.

1445
01:58:22,800 --> 01:58:36,380
orlie: Yeah, I guess my question was gonna be like, does it make sense to like publish these books or like small courses to drive traffic to another maybe larger project that you might have?

1446
01:58:36,420 --> 01:58:39,160
orlie: But I guess the answer was yes, based on what you guys discussed.

1447
01:58:40,500 --> 01:58:41,340
Hassan: Yeah, Orly.

1448
01:58:41,480 --> 01:58:46,920
Hassan: So I mean, I do funnel them all to my newsletter.

1449
01:58:47,260 --> 01:58:49,720
Hassan: So that's why I stopped working on ads.

1450
01:58:49,900 --> 01:58:51,340
Hassan: I don't know if you were listening in earlier.

1451
01:58:51,780 --> 01:59:02,340
Hassan: I was talking about I stopped working on ads to kind of figure out my entire web of, you know, connections between my products and I funnel now everything to my newsletter.

1452
01:59:02,340 --> 01:59:07,920
Hassan: So if you take one of my courses on Udemy, doesn't usually cost a lot 10 to 20 bucks when it's on discount.

1453
01:59:08,840 --> 01:59:15,080
Hassan: Instead of trying to sell you immediately on something else, I invite you to get a free book by signing up to my newsletter.

1454
01:59:15,280 --> 01:59:32,320
Hassan: And then that's where, you know, I don't have a warm up sequence, but you after a while when you start getting my emails, you'll basically, you know, you're basically part of the group that subscribes to me.

1455
01:59:32,320 --> 01:59:35,420
Hassan: That I could sell something to later on, but I don't immediately do it.

1456
01:59:35,560 --> 01:59:41,160
Hassan: Like I don't immediately do an upsell on some other product as part of that step.

1457
01:59:44,680 --> 01:59:45,640
orlie: Okay, got it.

1458
01:59:45,700 --> 01:59:45,960
orlie: Thank you.

1459
01:59:46,180 --> 01:59:46,540
orlie: Appreciate it.

1460
01:59:46,600 --> 01:59:46,780
orlie: Yeah.

1461
01:59:47,660 --> 01:59:50,760
orlie: Maybe I'll pick your brain later on Campfire.

1462
01:59:51,600 --> 01:59:54,500
orlie: I have a couple of follow ups, but I also have another meeting now.

1463
01:59:55,180 --> 01:59:56,220
Hassan: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

1464
01:59:56,480 --> 01:59:57,640
Hassan: I'm open on Campfire.

1465
01:59:57,800 --> 02:00:00,160
Hassan: Just please make sure you tag me because sometimes it's very hard.

1466
02:00:01,140 --> 02:00:08,920
Nesters: By the way, in the SmallBets community, whoever is not a member of the community, you can actually ask questions to Hasan.

1467
02:00:09,140 --> 02:00:12,340
Nesters: He's the resident expert, which is like, I guess, a program.

1468
02:00:12,480 --> 02:00:17,980
Nesters: You could say that it's part of the SmallBets that you can ask questions and the people will respond to you.

1469
02:00:19,160 --> 02:00:21,880
Nesters: Usually within a day to any of the questions you have.

1470
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:23,780
orlie: Thank you, guys.

1471
02:00:24,120 --> 02:00:26,240
orlie: I'll drop now, but I'll talk to you later.

1472
02:00:26,820 --> 02:00:27,320
orlie: Thanks for the...

1473
02:00:27,320 --> 02:00:29,640
Nesters: Yeah, we should wrap it up.

1474
02:00:29,740 --> 02:00:30,120
Nesters: Thank you.

1475
02:00:30,220 --> 02:00:37,000
Nesters: Thank you, everyone, for asking questions and joining today, especially you, Hasan, for talking about the newsletters.

1476
02:00:37,280 --> 02:00:39,820
Nesters: I need to get back to my newsletter as well.

1477
02:00:40,740 --> 02:00:42,360
Nesters: And the book probably as well.

1478
02:00:42,520 --> 02:00:43,220
Nesters: I do need to finish.

1479
02:00:43,760 --> 02:00:45,220
Hassan: Yeah, you should.

1480
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:45,760
Hassan: You should.

1481
02:00:45,880 --> 02:00:46,100
Hassan: All right.

1482
02:00:46,160 --> 02:00:46,940
Hassan: Thanks a lot, Nester.

1483
02:00:47,000 --> 02:00:50,380
Hassan: I appreciate you co-hosting this with Daniel and we'll catch up soon.

1484
02:00:51,540 --> 02:00:51,880
Yeah.

1485
02:00:51,880 --> 02:00:52,340
Hassan: All right.

1486
02:00:52,480 --> 02:00:52,800
Hassan: Take care.

1487
02:00:53,080 --> 02:00:53,720
Hassan: Bye-bye.

1488
02:00:53,940 --> 02:00:54,240
Hassan: Take care.