1 00:00:32,180 --> 00:00:35,140 Daniel: Hello, hello, Nesters, you there? 2 00:00:35,940 --> 00:00:36,880 Nesters: Yeah, I'm here. 3 00:00:37,460 --> 00:00:37,820 Daniel: Hey. 4 00:00:38,460 --> 00:00:39,700 Nesters: It's gonna be more fun this time. 5 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,460 Nesters: I mean, as long as Dagger actually shows up. 6 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:46,160 Daniel: Yes, that would be awkward if not. 7 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:50,100 Daniel: Let's see. 8 00:00:50,220 --> 00:00:53,260 Nesters: I don't know if that's better or worse than zero MMR, but... 9 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,140 Nesters: I mean, MRR, not MMR. 10 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,640 Nesters: Okay, wow, is that... 11 00:00:58,640 --> 00:00:59,180 Daniel: There he is. 12 00:01:00,100 --> 00:01:00,700 Daniel: He made it. 13 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:02,380 Daniel: Yes, I see him. 14 00:01:03,860 --> 00:01:07,020 Nesters: Yeah, I hate that the interface is just so laggy. 15 00:01:08,100 --> 00:01:08,780 Nesters: You don't see him? 16 00:01:09,060 --> 00:01:09,980 Daniel: You don't see Dagger yet? 17 00:01:11,780 --> 00:01:13,940 Nesters: I'll invite you to the co-host this time. 18 00:01:14,020 --> 00:01:14,960 Nesters: Let's check what happens. 19 00:01:15,340 --> 00:01:16,020 Daniel: Yeah, yeah. 20 00:01:16,220 --> 00:01:17,240 Nesters: Invite to speak. 21 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:18,500 Nesters: Let's see. 22 00:01:19,220 --> 00:01:20,160 Daniel: Cool, I'm a co-host. 23 00:01:20,180 --> 00:01:21,680 Nesters: Yeah, no, the main interface is... 24 00:01:28,140 --> 00:01:31,480 Dagobert: Okay, he's a speaker at least. 25 00:01:33,460 --> 00:01:36,560 Dagobert: Yeah, I can speak, but I'm trying to see if it's the right mic. 26 00:01:37,500 --> 00:01:38,480 Dagobert: Oh, yeah, we hear you. 27 00:01:39,080 --> 00:01:39,880 Daniel: We hear you loud. 28 00:01:39,900 --> 00:01:41,380 Daniel: Wait, my audio switched as well. 29 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,740 Daniel: Yeah, yeah, you sound better now, Nestor, yes. 30 00:01:44,460 --> 00:01:44,960 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 31 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,320 Nesters: Actually, mid-phase switched to the default again. 32 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:50,400 Nesters: I don't get it. 33 00:01:50,780 --> 00:01:51,400 Nesters: Okay, anyway. 34 00:01:52,660 --> 00:01:52,980 [SPEAKER_09]: Okay. 35 00:01:53,100 --> 00:01:53,440 Nesters: All right. 36 00:01:54,260 --> 00:01:56,000 Nesters: I guess we can slowly start. 37 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:58,200 Nesters: I mean, unless you're still setting it up. 38 00:01:59,020 --> 00:01:59,920 Daniel: No, no, let's go. 39 00:02:03,780 --> 00:02:04,740 Nesters: Yeah, so... 40 00:02:04,740 --> 00:02:09,400 Nesters: I mean, this time it's obviously making it different, because we usually do it with our community. 41 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:12,600 Nesters: Mostly community members featuring them, but... 42 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,120 Nesters: I mean, you are a member of community, but I don't think you actually ever show up. 43 00:02:16,980 --> 00:02:18,560 Nesters: I hope that's... 44 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:20,720 Dagobert: Yeah, no, I don't show up. 45 00:02:21,500 --> 00:02:25,260 Dagobert: Daniel invited me, you know... 46 00:02:25,260 --> 00:02:28,720 Nesters: As part of your speech, right? 47 00:02:29,620 --> 00:02:30,060 Dagobert: Yeah, yeah. 48 00:02:30,060 --> 00:02:32,360 Dagobert: So, no, I don't really show up, yeah. 49 00:02:33,500 --> 00:02:34,460 Nesters: Yeah, so... 50 00:02:34,460 --> 00:02:39,460 Nesters: Some people actually in the community have no idea who you are, so maybe at least you introduce yourself. 51 00:02:41,900 --> 00:02:44,060 Nesters: Whatever you're doing, how you've been doing. 52 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:45,600 Dagobert: Okay. 53 00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:56,380 Dagobert: So, I started building startups seven years ago, and the big thing I guess I can say, as I was a programmer for like... 54 00:02:56,380 --> 00:02:57,900 Dagobert: And I still am for like 20 years. 55 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:01,540 Dagobert: Freelancing, lots of... 56 00:03:01,540 --> 00:03:02,720 Dagobert: Some jobs also. 57 00:03:03,280 --> 00:03:08,300 Dagobert: And eventually I got tired of this, and I decided to have more adventure in my life. 58 00:03:08,700 --> 00:03:15,260 Dagobert: So I decided to build a startup with my wife at the time, that was in 2018. 59 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,800 Dagobert: And we did that for five years, lots of ups and downs. 60 00:03:20,040 --> 00:03:23,980 Dagobert: Eventually we had some wins, you know, we reached some good revenue in the end. 61 00:03:23,980 --> 00:03:43,840 Dagobert: But I had built everything on, I think, very fragile foundations, where to achieve our relative success with our startup, I had to work basically 60 hours a week, and I was always, you know, under crazy pressure. 62 00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:47,540 Dagobert: And eventually I had a huge burnout from that two years ago. 63 00:03:47,860 --> 00:03:53,120 Dagobert: There was also, you know, some things in the relationship with my wife at the time that wasn't working. 64 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,140 Dagobert: So everything was piling up. 65 00:03:55,940 --> 00:04:12,360 Dagobert: Did a huge burnout two years ago, left my wife, stopped the startup, found a job, recovered, I mean, at least a bit, and eventually left the job that was last year, deciding to come back, and like, come back to entrepreneurship, I mean. 66 00:04:13,500 --> 00:04:17,060 Dagobert: And it's been one year, and in one year I basically shipped nothing. 67 00:04:17,340 --> 00:04:30,420 Dagobert: And I'm just almost running out of savings now, because I spent the year kind of like, you know, because like for years I wasn't spending any time doing any kind of introspection or shit. 68 00:04:31,180 --> 00:04:33,420 Dagobert: And I felt like I was due for that. 69 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:38,020 Dagobert: So I spent a long time kind of like working on, okay, how did I get there? 70 00:04:38,100 --> 00:04:44,180 Dagobert: How did I end up, you know, with the, like, not having the life that I wanted? 71 00:04:44,940 --> 00:04:47,780 Dagobert: And what do I want now with entrepreneurship and everything? 72 00:04:48,340 --> 00:04:49,900 Dagobert: And so, yeah. 73 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,960 Dagobert: So I announced a product in September that's called Launch Day. 74 00:04:54,260 --> 00:04:58,980 Dagobert: And that was a product, I was surfing kind of like the hate vibe of Product Hunt. 75 00:05:00,900 --> 00:05:03,520 Dagobert: And I still haven't launched it, eight months later. 76 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:06,120 Dagobert: So I think that's an interesting topic to talk about, I guess. 77 00:05:07,620 --> 00:05:11,740 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I have the same problem, actually, not launching products. 78 00:05:13,460 --> 00:05:19,900 Nesters: But yeah, I think it's about the same time as you that I haven't actually launched the course I wanted to launch last year. 79 00:05:20,580 --> 00:05:21,840 Nesters: But I have done like... 80 00:05:21,840 --> 00:05:23,460 Dagobert: The course, so it's even worse, I'm sorry to say. 81 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:24,820 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 82 00:05:24,980 --> 00:05:26,000 Nesters: Yeah, it's worse, it's worse. 83 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:26,760 Nesters: It's worse than that. 84 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,400 Nesters: But yeah. 85 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:37,680 Nesters: So for me, I guess what I actually wanted to start with is like, we usually actually do this, you know, we do this with these apps. 86 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:39,620 Nesters: And, you know, we do it until we ship, you know. 87 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:41,680 Nesters: Usually people ship within two to three hours. 88 00:05:42,620 --> 00:05:43,500 Nesters: But for you, I don't know. 89 00:05:43,980 --> 00:05:45,100 Dagobert: That's not in the code, man. 90 00:05:45,100 --> 00:05:46,220 Nesters: Yeah, yeah. 91 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:50,240 Nesters: It seems like because I needed to free up like the whole month, actually, to continue yapping with you. 92 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:52,400 Nesters: But yes. 93 00:05:53,240 --> 00:06:04,240 Nesters: So for me, I guess the interesting part is actually the fact that like, there's a lot of people in the community as well who are actually not shipping, I guess, the products. 94 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:11,020 Nesters: And like, the whole discussion is actually, I noticed in the community has been that you're just, you know, like, just not shipping. 95 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:24,580 Nesters: And your idea, I guess, is that you, as you are so brought up the conversation about your, I guess, your idea of entrepreneurship for the launching the perfect product or whatever, or at least different, like something that changes the spaces like different. 96 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:28,540 Nesters: Like, would you actually suggest that to other people in general? 97 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:30,260 Nesters: Like to take that approach? 98 00:06:32,480 --> 00:06:35,200 Dagobert: You know, I think it depends on the stage you're at. 99 00:06:35,620 --> 00:06:39,680 Dagobert: So I guess now, as I explained, I'm on a different stage. 100 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,200 Dagobert: Like, I have launched products. 101 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:44,540 Dagobert: I have made money with products. 102 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:54,900 Dagobert: And it's just now I am looking for something more, like some meaning that I think is missing a lot. 103 00:06:54,940 --> 00:07:00,120 Dagobert: When you look at Twitter, you open Twitter, and you see only posts about making money. 104 00:07:01,780 --> 00:07:03,820 Dagobert: And for sure, I want to make money, man. 105 00:07:03,880 --> 00:07:04,660 Dagobert: I need it, actually. 106 00:07:04,780 --> 00:07:05,940 Dagobert: So I fucking want to make money. 107 00:07:06,100 --> 00:07:23,240 Dagobert: But like, there's like, you know, yesterday, I saw a post from a guy who was saying he made 10k MRR in one month or something, which is amazing, like an incredible execution, you know, props to him. 108 00:07:24,740 --> 00:07:28,200 Dagobert: And, but then he, I dig and found his product. 109 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,280 Dagobert: And his product was like an AI reply bot. 110 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,480 Dagobert: And, you know, I was disappointed by that. 111 00:07:37,020 --> 00:07:47,600 Dagobert: And the reason I'm saying this is like, I wonder if a reason we don't ship more, I say we, because you mentioned a lot of people have this problem. 112 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:54,220 Dagobert: It's like, you know, it's when you're just starting, it's really cool to see that you can make money. 113 00:07:54,380 --> 00:07:58,540 Dagobert: Oh, wow, I can launch something, have a small project, like a small bet, for example. 114 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:00,400 Dagobert: And I'm going to make money with it. 115 00:08:00,620 --> 00:08:01,280 Dagobert: That's awesome. 116 00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:04,520 Dagobert: You realize this, you feel empowered, you know. 117 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,400 Dagobert: But then eventually, like, what are you going to build? 118 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:14,320 Dagobert: You know, and when I open Twitter, a lot of times I am not just not inspired. 119 00:08:14,540 --> 00:08:20,960 Dagobert: I'm like angry at like some things like, why the fuck are people building like bad products? 120 00:08:21,060 --> 00:08:23,780 Dagobert: Like not bad products, but like products that are not helping anything. 121 00:08:24,580 --> 00:08:29,040 Dagobert: Products that are making the world, you know, even sometimes shittier. 122 00:08:29,500 --> 00:08:30,660 Dagobert: Just, I get it. 123 00:08:30,700 --> 00:08:31,100 Dagobert: I get it. 124 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:32,780 Dagobert: You start to feel your power. 125 00:08:32,940 --> 00:08:34,360 Dagobert: You start to feel you can do shit. 126 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:35,020 Dagobert: That's awesome. 127 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:38,160 Dagobert: But then eventually, you know, what do we want to build? 128 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:45,440 Dagobert: And so for sure, I spent a long time recently just, you know, thinking about shit and not doing anything. 129 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,720 Dagobert: And it might be seen as procrastination and maybe it is. 130 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,800 Dagobert: But I also needed that to be like, what do I want to do? 131 00:08:54,100 --> 00:09:01,460 Dagobert: You know, it's not my dream to make some money with, you know, just because I can. 132 00:09:01,680 --> 00:09:04,780 Dagobert: I want to make some money because I did something cool. 133 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:07,680 Dagobert: Not just that looks cool, but something that's like good. 134 00:09:07,680 --> 00:09:13,340 Dagobert: Like good, like not good execution, good execution, but like inspiring. 135 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:14,200 Dagobert: Awesome. 136 00:09:14,860 --> 00:09:19,420 Dagobert: You know, and I feel like it's such a part of the conversation that is missing. 137 00:09:19,860 --> 00:09:29,960 Dagobert: And we're just talking about it because like we've and I was one of the ones to say this when I used to make so many memes, you know, when I was doing my first startup. 138 00:09:31,680 --> 00:09:36,860 Dagobert: About for sure, execution is more important than the idea and all of these things. 139 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:38,800 Dagobert: And marketing is more important than product. 140 00:09:39,020 --> 00:09:40,260 Dagobert: And in a way, it's true. 141 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:46,140 Dagobert: But man, I miss giving a shit about my product. 142 00:09:46,420 --> 00:09:50,780 Dagobert: I miss, you know, even though my last startup didn't succeed as like I wanted. 143 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:57,740 Dagobert: Man, it was so cool to build a product that we believed in with our heart, with our soul. 144 00:09:57,740 --> 00:10:05,160 Dagobert: And yeah, and I think that's something I want more like and I want to talk about more. 145 00:10:05,540 --> 00:10:10,520 Dagobert: And so, yeah, so that's the thing that's on my mind right now. 146 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,280 Nesters: Yeah, I'll let you talk about it in detail. 147 00:10:14,580 --> 00:10:19,380 Nesters: But on this part, I do actually agree that it's very similar for me as well. 148 00:10:20,500 --> 00:10:24,140 Nesters: Because I just don't want to launch a bad product. 149 00:10:24,140 --> 00:10:29,260 Nesters: Like a product that either is just more of the same or maybe even actually makes someone's life better. 150 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:39,520 Nesters: Because I do, in general, feel like any of these reply bots, whatever, Reddit spam bots, whatever people are launching. 151 00:10:39,820 --> 00:10:44,660 Nesters: Like to me, it's like, what the reason is like, you're making money with that. 152 00:10:44,740 --> 00:10:47,040 Nesters: And maybe you're helping some people make more money. 153 00:10:47,620 --> 00:10:59,000 Nesters: But what's on the other side of the equation is, you're actually stealing someone else's attention for some completely random, irrelevant comment, for example, that they read in front of their eyes. 154 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,480 Nesters: And that's like a tax on someone else's time, attention. 155 00:11:03,660 --> 00:11:07,460 Nesters: Yeah, and I actually do also hate that part. 156 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,980 Nesters: I understand why people do that, why they also want to make money. 157 00:11:11,140 --> 00:11:17,940 Nesters: And in the beginning of the journey, for a lot of people, that probably makes sense that you at least ship that product that you know how to build. 158 00:11:18,840 --> 00:11:35,480 Nesters: But I do also believe that you need to move on from providing, let's say, very marginal value or being actually detrimental to society, whatever other people's time, attention, when actually shipping something better for the world. 159 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:36,360 Nesters: I agree with that. 160 00:11:36,500 --> 00:11:38,020 Nesters: I agree on that point, actually. 161 00:11:39,100 --> 00:11:44,860 Nesters: I wouldn't say that other people are not entrepreneurs per se, but I would agree on the sentiment. 162 00:11:44,860 --> 00:11:50,920 Nesters: I've actually had the same issue with shipping some things because I felt like they're not exactly delivering much. 163 00:11:51,420 --> 00:11:54,060 Nesters: And also because I would need to spend time on that product. 164 00:11:54,420 --> 00:11:57,860 Nesters: And I actually rather spend time with my family, my daughter, for example. 165 00:11:58,140 --> 00:12:03,200 Nesters: I just like kind of dropped the idea in a way because I'm like, there's actually a better thing I can do right now. 166 00:12:03,220 --> 00:12:04,700 Nesters: And that's not shipping a product. 167 00:12:05,060 --> 00:12:06,860 Nesters: So yeah, I just kind of like drop it. 168 00:12:06,860 --> 00:12:07,040 Nesters: Yeah. 169 00:12:08,800 --> 00:12:10,840 Dagobert: Yeah, I think. 170 00:12:11,180 --> 00:12:11,680 Dagobert: Wait. 171 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:13,700 Dagobert: Yeah. 172 00:12:13,940 --> 00:12:14,640 Dagobert: Can you still hear me? 173 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:14,900 Dagobert: Yep. 174 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:15,480 Dagobert: Yeah. 175 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:16,060 Dagobert: All good. 176 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:17,260 Dagobert: Okay. 177 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:19,540 Dagobert: Oh, my God. 178 00:12:19,740 --> 00:12:21,620 Dagobert: IT guy who cannot manage his computer. 179 00:12:21,960 --> 00:12:22,100 Dagobert: Yeah. 180 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:28,760 Dagobert: No, the thing I was saying, because you pointed to that, like about real entrepreneurship. 181 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,800 Dagobert: It's more like, of course, you know, it's real entrepreneurship. 182 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:44,700 Dagobert: But it's like, you know, like, because the conversation is so much about having some success and some results. 183 00:12:45,660 --> 00:12:51,600 Dagobert: It's like we forget about any sense of what can be good or bad. 184 00:12:51,700 --> 00:12:58,140 Dagobert: And if you think of an example, like we think about, does this solve a problem for someone? 185 00:12:58,140 --> 00:12:59,240 Dagobert: That's like the first step. 186 00:13:00,100 --> 00:13:01,920 Dagobert: Finding something that solves a problem. 187 00:13:05,020 --> 00:13:15,260 Dagobert: Like, sorry, for example, you're a woman, you're opening an OnlyFans and some men are going to watch it. 188 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:16,680 Dagobert: You're solving their problem. 189 00:13:17,380 --> 00:13:18,480 Dagobert: But is that cool? 190 00:13:19,020 --> 00:13:19,780 Dagobert: Is that good? 191 00:13:20,300 --> 00:13:22,440 Dagobert: I'm not trying to make a value judgment. 192 00:13:22,580 --> 00:13:23,400 Dagobert: Like, it's not my point. 193 00:13:23,460 --> 00:13:24,440 Dagobert: I don't care about that. 194 00:13:25,180 --> 00:13:26,420 Dagobert: Everybody has their own values. 195 00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:27,100 Dagobert: I'm fine with it. 196 00:13:27,100 --> 00:13:28,620 Dagobert: But I'm just like in the idea. 197 00:13:29,840 --> 00:13:32,480 Dagobert: Like, you know, you can solve a problem for someone. 198 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:34,900 Dagobert: Like you can sell cocaine to a drug addict. 199 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:36,060 Dagobert: You're solving their problem. 200 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:46,260 Dagobert: You know, you can create an AI reply bot and solve the problem of a buzzy CEO who wants to, you know, grow his audience. 201 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:48,980 Dagobert: But, you know, what are you doing in the end? 202 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:54,220 Dagobert: And I just want this part of the conversation, you know, to happen. 203 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,620 Nesters: Yeah, I think you don't even need to talk about OnlyFans. 204 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,800 Nesters: The dating apps themselves, they do the same thing. 205 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:02,220 Nesters: They're mostly about engaging. 206 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,020 Dagobert: The goal of the dating app is to keep you single. 207 00:14:05,540 --> 00:14:06,920 Nesters: And keep you on the app, yes. 208 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:07,740 Nesters: To keep you paying. 209 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:08,440 Nesters: Exactly. 210 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,420 Nesters: So their goal is not to actually solve your dating problems. 211 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:15,560 Nesters: That's the... obviously we get to that conversation, yeah. 212 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:18,520 Nesters: And, yeah, Daniel. 213 00:14:18,860 --> 00:14:20,100 Daniel: No, no, go ahead, Nestor. 214 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:21,140 Daniel: I'm happy to. 215 00:14:21,700 --> 00:14:21,940 Daniel: Go ahead. 216 00:14:21,940 --> 00:14:30,380 Nesters: Yeah, that was just that, like, the goal, obviously, of the dating app is not to solve your problems, find a partner, etc. 217 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:31,700 Nesters: They just want to keep you there. 218 00:14:32,060 --> 00:14:37,560 Nesters: So they had the same incentives, yeah, that they're not actually going to solve your problem. 219 00:14:37,660 --> 00:14:43,960 Nesters: And I guess the conversation we would want to have is that instead of focusing on the problems, you kind of need a value shift in general. 220 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:53,680 Nesters: That we actually value what we're building for the world, and not actually focusing on the one thing that's just right in front of us. 221 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:55,640 Nesters: It's like, oh, how do we solve this small thing? 222 00:14:56,780 --> 00:15:02,860 Nesters: But for people to start thinking about those values, you actually need to shift values for everyone in the community. 223 00:15:03,140 --> 00:15:21,100 Nesters: So if you want to deliver value in that sense, Dago, in a way, I feel like there would need to be a shift of not just shipping a product that would embody that, but also actually somehow help shift the vibe in terms of how that would look like in the world, 224 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:21,420 Nesters: you know. 225 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:29,920 Nesters: So that might actually not look like shipping products, but more like, you know, actually yapping more about that. 226 00:15:30,660 --> 00:15:31,380 Dagobert: I'm not sure. 227 00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:37,040 Dagobert: But I feel like I just realized something. 228 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:43,240 Dagobert: It's like, when is the last time that we've heard the word invent? 229 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,720 Dagobert: You know, we never hear this word anymore, invent. 230 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:48,180 Dagobert: It doesn't exist anymore. 231 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:49,820 Dagobert: Everybody's hustling. 232 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:51,060 Dagobert: Everybody's grinding. 233 00:15:51,700 --> 00:15:53,680 Dagobert: But who's like inventing shit? 234 00:15:53,680 --> 00:16:03,940 Dagobert: Who's like, you know, it's funny because I see so many like, and I'm a part of it, entrepreneurs, they're going to criticize Apple because they stop innovating. 235 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:06,720 Dagobert: You know, you see Steve Jobs died and then it's Tim Cook. 236 00:16:06,820 --> 00:16:09,240 Dagobert: And then every year Apple becomes a little bit cheater. 237 00:16:09,540 --> 00:16:11,460 Dagobert: And now it's been 10 years or 15 years. 238 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,380 Dagobert: And so it's starting to get, you know, a bit bad. 239 00:16:14,380 --> 00:16:17,500 Dagobert: But that's what everybody's doing. 240 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:23,900 Dagobert: Like, because to innovate, you have to take risks, you have to maybe fail. 241 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:35,300 Dagobert: And because we are so focused on our own survival, which might be also because of the economy, of the mood, of everything around the society. 242 00:16:35,680 --> 00:16:40,700 Dagobert: We're focused on, like Daniel would say, like be a cockroach, like survive anything. 243 00:16:40,700 --> 00:16:43,780 Dagobert: And that's actually a super smart mindset for sure. 244 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:51,580 Dagobert: But because we have this focus, then we are going to focus on, okay, what can make me money quickly? 245 00:16:51,940 --> 00:16:53,620 Dagobert: And usually, you know what that's going to be? 246 00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:54,660 Dagobert: That's going to be a course. 247 00:16:55,100 --> 00:16:57,600 Dagobert: Or that's going to be, and there's nothing wrong with courses. 248 00:16:57,780 --> 00:17:00,320 Dagobert: I have a course and I'm proud of it. 249 00:17:00,560 --> 00:17:06,300 Dagobert: And I have some people who wrote to me saying, like actually physical letters telling me it really helped them. 250 00:17:06,300 --> 00:17:08,360 Dagobert: So I know a course can be beautiful. 251 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:09,980 Dagobert: It can touch people's lives. 252 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:10,780 Dagobert: It can be amazing. 253 00:17:11,760 --> 00:17:24,260 Dagobert: But I just feel like by focusing on short term, you know, on not taking too much risk to avoid big failures, we're taking short term risks and small bets. 254 00:17:24,260 --> 00:17:28,120 Dagobert: And shipping fast and all of these words that we use. 255 00:17:29,820 --> 00:17:37,920 Dagobert: Maybe in the end, we don't have the opportunity to create something that's going to be really big and interesting. 256 00:17:38,940 --> 00:17:42,600 Dagobert: And, you know, that might be more positive. 257 00:17:43,020 --> 00:17:47,500 Dagobert: Because if we just look at the next step, then we're always going to see a small thing. 258 00:17:47,500 --> 00:17:51,140 Dagobert: And for sure, if you need to enjoy the journey, and I really get that. 259 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:57,720 Dagobert: I really devalue almost like meditative way of just like going little by little for sure. 260 00:17:58,880 --> 00:18:01,760 Dagobert: But I'm like, man, where is Steve Jobs? 261 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:03,200 Dagobert: Like, where are these people? 262 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:05,580 Dagobert: Where are these innovating people? 263 00:18:05,720 --> 00:18:06,920 Dagobert: Where are these ambitious people? 264 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:11,800 Dagobert: It feels like it's almost a shame to say, yeah, I want to do something like Steve Jobs. 265 00:18:11,860 --> 00:18:13,800 Dagobert: Like, it seems crazy to say that today. 266 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:31,000 Dagobert: Like, it seems like we're in a time where you're always focused on being pragmatic, being safe, you know, and the whole, you know, because Daniel loves to shit on YC for good reason, I would say. 267 00:18:31,140 --> 00:18:32,620 Dagobert: I agree with him on many points. 268 00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:34,880 Dagobert: But we're like hitting this battle. 269 00:18:35,620 --> 00:18:42,020 Dagobert: But we're kind of like, I don't know, man, I just, I just feel like there's something missing. 270 00:18:42,020 --> 00:18:49,600 Dagobert: There's some like, doing something bigger, doing something, you know, that could be more inspiring, and that could change things. 271 00:18:50,000 --> 00:19:06,780 Dagobert: Like, when I didn't launch my product hunt alternative, I've had a few people who had a lot of success as indie makers who make quite a bit of money, tell me, man, you should have launched quickly, you would have, you know, used the hype, and you would have made money, 272 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:08,280 Dagobert: and now you would be much further ahead. 273 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:12,700 Dagobert: That's like, that's not, that's not wrong. 274 00:19:12,820 --> 00:19:13,240 Dagobert: That's true. 275 00:19:13,820 --> 00:19:23,080 Dagobert: But then, if you're only focusing on, you know, if you just want to be fast, cool, you can capitalize on shit. 276 00:19:23,840 --> 00:19:27,060 Dagobert: But then, when do you take the time to make something new? 277 00:19:27,300 --> 00:19:34,680 Dagobert: Because every product hunt competitor that launched at this time, they all basically failed, because they didn't take the time to do something new. 278 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:43,960 Dagobert: So if you don't take time to do something, you know, to really reinvent something, how can you, you know, how can you innovate? 279 00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:44,940 Dagobert: How can you invent? 280 00:19:45,380 --> 00:19:47,680 Dagobert: And that's really something, you know, I'm missing. 281 00:19:49,860 --> 00:19:58,360 Nesters: And I think a lot of it has to do just with how our attention span also has gone down, because there's always constantly something in front of you. 282 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:16,040 Nesters: And you feel like you're, I'm just gonna say, like, from a perspective, just like if you're switching from nine to five, let's say to trying to make some side income, like you will be looking, like, let's say, xFeed, or even LinkedIn, you're just gonna be looking at promotion after promotion of a product, 283 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:17,020 Nesters: another product. 284 00:20:17,020 --> 00:20:19,360 Nesters: And you'll feel like you're always behind. 285 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:29,320 Nesters: So you just need to, like, get that quick win, you know, like, you need to get that crypto pump and dump going, you know, like, you just need to find a way to get quick money somewhere. 286 00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:43,000 Nesters: I feel that has, like, actually changed the mindset, like, there's the mindset difference in that sense, too, now that people actually are more fearful of, like, how they're gonna do, like, oh, there's layoffs again, and they just hear of other layoff way. 287 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:58,360 Nesters: For example, I think there's actually way more fear with this connectiveness, then there's actually those good emotions, as you're speaking about the greater things, I think there's more fear now, in society, then there's like anxiety, then there's actually like the good emotions, 288 00:20:58,480 --> 00:20:59,720 Nesters: because fear usually wins out. 289 00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:11,240 Nesters: That's why also humans survive, you know, and, and, like, continue developing, because we usually the fearful survive, because they actually, like, like, prepare for the downside risk, etc. 290 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:17,040 Nesters: So, but right now, we, I think we have gone a little bit too far into that, that category. 291 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:29,500 Nesters: And I think that's actually later manifests in this what we see now of everyone just trying to do some, you know, some quick, quick product, quick startup, and not necessarily a bad thing, but the vibe. 292 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:29,780 Nesters: Yeah. 293 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:30,940 Nesters: Yeah, Daniel. 294 00:21:31,420 --> 00:21:32,800 Daniel: No, no, can I say something about this? 295 00:21:32,820 --> 00:21:35,740 Daniel: Because I think actually, you know, to me, this is actually quite simple. 296 00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,280 Daniel: I just want to make things that I'm proud of. 297 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:41,700 Daniel: But they could be very small things, right? 298 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:49,060 Daniel: So sort of this idea that, for me to be proud of something, it needs to be something that's going to be the next cure for cancer. 299 00:21:49,460 --> 00:21:51,180 Daniel: I mean, it doesn't need to be that ambitious. 300 00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:56,220 Daniel: Of course, you know, if I were to do something so impactful, I would be even more proud. 301 00:21:56,580 --> 00:21:59,240 Daniel: I'm sure there's a scale of pride as well. 302 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:17,740 Daniel: But compared to like the discussion we're having at the beginning about, you know, doing sleazy things like AI reply bots and whatever, you know, I don't do those things, because I imagine myself trying to explain to my kids what I'm doing, and I would be embarrassed if I were to tell them, 303 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:23,020 Daniel: hey, what I'm doing is an AI reply bot to like spam replies on Twitter or whatever. 304 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,720 Daniel: So, you know, it just becomes something that I don't do. 305 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:40,880 Daniel: But I personally find a lot of satisfaction in finding just something very, very small, right, that is missing in an app or in sort of the operating system or whatever, and try to solve that. 306 00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:43,200 Daniel: And I think it brings me a lot of satisfaction. 307 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:57,460 Daniel: Usually, these might not necessarily be some of these things that, you know, are going to necessarily make you, you know, millions or like have huge upsides, but can certainly be something that you could build on over time. 308 00:22:57,620 --> 00:23:06,080 Daniel: And I also don't believe that sort of innovation in the real world happens with like big grand visions, right? 309 00:23:06,460 --> 00:23:09,080 Daniel: It can certainly happen sometimes, but I think it's the exception. 310 00:23:09,460 --> 00:23:11,360 Daniel: Usually, it's just incremental improvements. 311 00:23:11,360 --> 00:23:19,700 Daniel: You know, I used to work at Amazon for about 10 years, which from the outside, it's usually seen as, you know, a very innovative company. 312 00:23:20,260 --> 00:23:34,620 Daniel: And however, my perspective from the inside was very much like what we're doing here, like it's like looking at the customer problem, sort of figuring out an easy way to solve it, putting it out on the market, look whether the market responds positively or negatively, 313 00:23:35,140 --> 00:23:38,760 Daniel: take what works, throw in the rest, and so on and so forth. 314 00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:40,240 Daniel: But I was in AWS. 315 00:23:40,780 --> 00:23:44,100 Daniel: AWS, if you think about it, is pretty much a big portfolio of small bets, right? 316 00:23:44,100 --> 00:23:46,000 Daniel: There's like 200 plus services now. 317 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:52,980 Daniel: You know, I'm not going to break my NDA, but as you can imagine, typical portfolio, right? 318 00:23:53,520 --> 00:24:04,180 Daniel: Most break even, some lose some money, and a handful make billions of dollars, very much like a book publisher, venture capitalist, movie studio in Hollywood, and so on and so forth. 319 00:24:04,180 --> 00:24:08,620 Daniel: Now, taken from the outside, you know, Amazon looks very inventive, right? 320 00:24:08,660 --> 00:24:11,620 Daniel: It made lots of, you know, new things, and so on and so forth. 321 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:27,400 Daniel: But on a day-by-day basis, it's just taming on synthetic wires, I think, just these small ones, building on top of them, looking for feedback, again, like sort of the types of things we discussed together. 322 00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:35,980 Daniel: But yeah, like I think the big asterisk on this, on the part of the selection criteria, has to be some amount of pride that you have in your work. 323 00:24:36,060 --> 00:24:51,320 Daniel: And it could be just a course, or a workshop, or a conference, or a book, or a piece of software, Microsaft, big SaaS, physical products, e-commerce, even dropshipping and whatever, which again, like we tend to put sometimes in the like sleazy category, 324 00:24:51,580 --> 00:24:53,120 Daniel: but you know, what's sleazy about it? 325 00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,340 Daniel: I mean, it depends on the product. 326 00:24:54,340 --> 00:24:58,660 Daniel: And if you're dropshipping something useful that you're proud of, by all means. 327 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:01,020 Daniel: So this is how I see it. 328 00:25:01,120 --> 00:25:02,980 Daniel: And in my mind, it's actually quite simple. 329 00:25:03,300 --> 00:25:07,940 Daniel: It's the definition of, I mean, to decide whether something I'm proud of or not. 330 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,220 Daniel: Personally, generally speaking, it's an easy thing for me to decide. 331 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:18,060 Daniel: It's not that hard, but I don't know if like everyone feels the same or not. 332 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,620 Daniel: What do you think, Dago and Nestor? 333 00:25:24,370 --> 00:25:30,250 Nesters: I do have a question sometimes, whether those people making the AI reply bots are actually proud of their work? 334 00:25:30,270 --> 00:25:32,890 Daniel: Oh, I very likely think not, honestly. 335 00:25:33,070 --> 00:25:36,830 Daniel: But of course, maybe they actually, you know, maybe they have a different perspective. 336 00:25:37,190 --> 00:25:44,090 Daniel: I think like Dago was saying before, you know, sometimes, you know, we have different model values, right? 337 00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:56,770 Daniel: And, you know, to give you another example, which is not as harsh, you know, for example, social media scheduling stuff, you know, again, like, I don't see it as necessarily a bad thing. 338 00:25:56,910 --> 00:26:00,050 Daniel: You know, there's certainly value and sometimes in scheduling posts. 339 00:26:01,410 --> 00:26:07,090 Daniel: But probably I would probably be interested in that type of product, because I never schedule posts, right? 340 00:26:07,090 --> 00:26:14,090 Daniel: Or at least, you know, I don't even have that problem myself, right? 341 00:26:14,150 --> 00:26:19,090 Daniel: And I wouldn't even be able to explain it to myself, like why I would need it. 342 00:26:19,130 --> 00:26:21,450 Daniel: So I think, again, like, not necessarily anything bad. 343 00:26:21,550 --> 00:26:27,850 Daniel: And actually, I'm sure there's some use cases, maybe for marketing announcement or large companies to schedule their posts, that makes sense. 344 00:26:28,510 --> 00:26:30,710 Daniel: So sometimes there's like these gray areas as well. 345 00:26:31,030 --> 00:26:36,450 Daniel: It's just, you know, it's not something I would probably be inclined to even consider doing. 346 00:26:37,950 --> 00:26:39,170 Daniel: But yeah, no, it's a good point. 347 00:26:39,290 --> 00:26:42,730 Daniel: I mean, do these people feel proud of their stuff? 348 00:26:43,410 --> 00:26:44,630 Daniel: I speak to a lot of people. 349 00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:48,190 Nesters: I'm pretty sure some of them pretty sure do actually feel proud. 350 00:26:48,290 --> 00:26:50,930 Nesters: I mean, maybe they feel proud of the architecture they've built. 351 00:26:51,070 --> 00:26:58,470 Nesters: They might, especially if they come from a very dev centric mindset, sometimes they might feel proud of what they're built in terms of like technology. 352 00:26:58,710 --> 00:27:07,370 Nesters: And I think, yeah, I think a lot of people when they get stuck in developing like these tech ideas, maybe they kind of lose a little bit of that. 353 00:27:07,370 --> 00:27:23,010 Nesters: I think that happens actually with a lot of technical inventions is that sometimes that idea of what moral value, how it coincides with like moral values and social good for the society kind of takes the backseat often because when you focus specifically on the technical aspects, 354 00:27:23,190 --> 00:27:32,230 Nesters: and you develop this great technology, you maybe ignore what's, you know, what ends up happening down the line to like some group of people, for example, impacted by the product. 355 00:27:32,230 --> 00:27:34,110 Daniel: This is very common in employment, I think. 356 00:27:34,270 --> 00:27:38,550 Daniel: I mean, sometimes when you're an employee, you don't really have a say on what the company is working on. 357 00:27:38,690 --> 00:27:47,230 Daniel: And so you've almost like, you know, you start taking pride in like the architecture, the technology, the software development best practices, and so on and so forth. 358 00:27:47,290 --> 00:27:48,390 Daniel: I've seen it many times. 359 00:27:48,910 --> 00:27:51,610 Daniel: Again, not necessarily something right or wrong, but it's good. 360 00:27:51,770 --> 00:27:53,010 Daniel: I think it's a good observation. 361 00:27:53,670 --> 00:27:54,030 Daniel: Absolutely. 362 00:27:54,030 --> 00:27:58,890 Daniel: But I think if we're self-employed, if we're calling our own shots, I shouldn't stop there. 363 00:28:00,950 --> 00:28:04,290 Daniel: Basically, I 100% agree with what Doug Roberts was saying. 364 00:28:04,410 --> 00:28:11,810 Daniel: I think it's the difference probably that I see is that it doesn't need to be the bar, it doesn't need to be that high to feel proud of something. 365 00:28:11,950 --> 00:28:15,950 Daniel: Again, the extreme, it doesn't need to be a cure for cancer. 366 00:28:15,950 --> 00:28:26,490 Daniel: It could be, you know, I was thinking recently, for example, like a Chrome extension that improves the user experience of managing these Twitter spaces. 367 00:28:26,890 --> 00:28:29,390 Daniel: You know, this would be something I would be proud of, for example. 368 00:28:29,650 --> 00:28:35,310 Daniel: We all keep complaining how the experience here is, you know, it sucks, it's ugly. 369 00:28:35,610 --> 00:28:37,950 Daniel: And, you know, it would be nice to have some better... 370 00:28:37,950 --> 00:28:39,930 Nesters: I was thinking about it too, by the way. 371 00:28:39,990 --> 00:28:41,810 Nesters: I was thinking about the chat, like a side chat. 372 00:28:42,130 --> 00:28:42,750 Daniel: Side chat, exactly. 373 00:28:43,050 --> 00:28:44,990 Daniel: I actually tagged Elon Musk recently. 374 00:28:45,610 --> 00:28:48,130 Daniel: He didn't make it to him. 375 00:28:48,370 --> 00:28:52,570 Daniel: But yeah, isn't it crazy that we're chatting in the small Bethkamp fire? 376 00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:55,570 Daniel: And there should be a side chat here, right? 377 00:28:55,570 --> 00:29:09,710 Daniel: So anyway, to be honest with you, I don't think it's a great commercial project, because, you know, it would require everyone to have the Chrome extension installed, and very likely Twitter will do something soon, whatever. 378 00:29:10,450 --> 00:29:12,270 Daniel: And I don't know, I didn't really think to it. 379 00:29:12,310 --> 00:29:17,010 Daniel: But that's the kind of thing where there's a small problem, right? 380 00:29:18,150 --> 00:29:21,750 Daniel: And, you know, you make something that just improves, makes a small dance, right? 381 00:29:21,790 --> 00:29:24,070 Daniel: Improves the world a little bit, like a tiny bit. 382 00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:25,350 Daniel: For a small number of people. 383 00:29:25,450 --> 00:29:28,490 Daniel: Again, it doesn't need to be for a billion people or a million people. 384 00:29:28,750 --> 00:29:30,490 Daniel: It could be for a few hundred people. 385 00:29:31,490 --> 00:29:36,730 Daniel: But yeah, look, if I were describing this to my kids, I would be very proud of. 386 00:29:36,830 --> 00:29:39,590 Daniel: Look, I built a small chat for Twitter spaces, whatever. 387 00:29:39,830 --> 00:29:41,130 Daniel: It made a few thousand dollars. 388 00:29:41,970 --> 00:29:43,170 Daniel: Yeah, I'll take it. 389 00:29:44,490 --> 00:29:46,490 Daniel: And that's how I see things, right? 390 00:29:46,890 --> 00:29:54,510 Daniel: And I really believe as well that, you know, bigger, impactful things sometimes stem from these small things. 391 00:29:54,590 --> 00:29:57,730 Daniel: We like to say success brings with it more success, right? 392 00:29:57,750 --> 00:30:00,550 Daniel: And it's sort of looking at it from the payoff side. 393 00:30:00,550 --> 00:30:03,510 Daniel: I think even from the impact side, right? 394 00:30:03,570 --> 00:30:11,390 Daniel: I mean, when you make a small dance in the world, usually you have better odds of making a slightly bigger dance next time and next time and so on and so forth. 395 00:30:11,470 --> 00:30:19,230 Daniel: Just because you gain more, basically more leverage, more exposure, and so on and so forth. 396 00:30:21,290 --> 00:30:23,310 Nesters: Yeah, I think Hasan has a question. 397 00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:24,710 Daniel: Yes, go Hasan. 398 00:30:24,710 --> 00:30:26,190 Hassan: Yes, thanks, Daniel. 399 00:30:26,310 --> 00:30:26,890 Hassan: Thanks, Nestor. 400 00:30:27,250 --> 00:30:29,150 Hassan: And Dagobert, thank you so much. 401 00:30:30,390 --> 00:30:33,310 Hassan: Maybe a comment and then a question for you. 402 00:30:34,110 --> 00:30:36,670 Hassan: So just at a high level, thank you for being so vulnerable. 403 00:30:37,170 --> 00:30:46,430 Hassan: It's kind of, you know, really refreshing to hear someone be very open about the fact that, you know, you went through some success and then not so much. 404 00:30:46,450 --> 00:30:51,110 Hassan: And then you've been working at a few things for a year with no results. 405 00:30:51,130 --> 00:30:53,790 Hassan: So thank you for saying that because it takes a lot of courage. 406 00:30:54,730 --> 00:31:04,510 Hassan: To your point about, you know, the things that inspire you, you know, to me, it's really always relative, right? 407 00:31:04,550 --> 00:31:11,750 Hassan: Like, it's sort of, you know, a value system and everyone has different sort of guardrails around that. 408 00:31:11,750 --> 00:31:21,310 Hassan: You know, one common example is when you're driving really, you know, on an average speed at the highway, you'll notice that someone who's going faster than you is a maniac. 409 00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:24,870 Hassan: And then the person going slower than you is an idiot. 410 00:31:25,410 --> 00:31:30,610 Hassan: And what we don't realize is that those people in those other cars are kind of saying the same thing about us, right? 411 00:31:30,650 --> 00:31:35,510 Hassan: The person going faster is saying, what an idiot for going slow or average speed. 412 00:31:35,510 --> 00:31:38,630 Hassan: And then, you know, what a maniac for going faster. 413 00:31:38,630 --> 00:31:43,190 Hassan: So it's always very hard, you know, it ends up becoming a philosophical discussion. 414 00:31:43,350 --> 00:31:50,810 Hassan: But the question for you, Dagobert, is you mentioned something needs to be more inspiring for you, right? 415 00:31:50,830 --> 00:32:00,830 Hassan: And you gave the example of Steve Jobs and I guess, you know, people like maybe Elon Musk, I don't know, sending rocket ships that are usable and all of that. 416 00:32:00,830 --> 00:32:17,270 Hassan: But then if I were to ask you to kind of scale it down a little bit, like what would be something that's inspiring to you, you know, something you would be proud of, based on people you follow on Twitter or products that they recently launched, other than I know you mentioned courses and books maybe are not so inspiring, 417 00:32:17,390 --> 00:32:27,290 Hassan: but like what's an example for us that would just give us an insight into what you would consider as inspiring or something you'd be proud of that's not too crazy? 418 00:32:29,530 --> 00:32:40,230 Dagobert: Yeah, so it's funny because I saw that there was Jason, I don't know if it's Fried or Fried, Jason Fried from Basecamp that was listening for a while. 419 00:32:41,450 --> 00:32:43,770 Dagobert: And, you know, Basecamp is this kind of product. 420 00:32:44,410 --> 00:32:48,870 Dagobert: I'm actually not a fan of the product every time I tried it, it didn't fit me. 421 00:32:49,930 --> 00:32:52,970 Dagobert: But, you know, it's a product they built over a long time. 422 00:32:52,970 --> 00:32:56,990 Dagobert: It's a product that they, like, built. 423 00:32:57,310 --> 00:32:58,550 Dagobert: You can see that they care. 424 00:32:59,090 --> 00:33:00,110 Dagobert: You can see that they care. 425 00:33:00,570 --> 00:33:08,530 Dagobert: And they're trying to change something, you know, in the way we manage projects, in the way people work, like there's a vision for it. 426 00:33:09,090 --> 00:33:10,670 Dagobert: I guess maybe that's the thing. 427 00:33:10,890 --> 00:33:12,310 Dagobert: What I'm missing is the vision. 428 00:33:12,310 --> 00:33:16,550 Dagobert: You know, it doesn't have to be a huge vision. 429 00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:22,150 Dagobert: Like, for example, my vision for launch day, I mean, helping indie makers find their first customers. 430 00:33:22,790 --> 00:33:26,790 Dagobert: I mean, it's not the iPhone, you know, it's not like the biggest vision you can have. 431 00:33:27,210 --> 00:33:29,550 Dagobert: It's quite a small vision when you think about it. 432 00:33:30,010 --> 00:33:32,010 Dagobert: But there's a vision. 433 00:33:32,250 --> 00:33:37,730 Dagobert: There's like, okay, I want to bring something and I want to help these people in a new way. 434 00:33:38,430 --> 00:33:39,990 Dagobert: And it matters to me. 435 00:33:40,190 --> 00:33:44,030 Dagobert: And so I'm going to put everything I have to try to solve this. 436 00:33:44,170 --> 00:33:49,670 Dagobert: But not just solve it because I want to make money from them and I want to convince them. 437 00:33:49,710 --> 00:33:52,030 Dagobert: It's easy to convince someone to give you their money. 438 00:33:52,830 --> 00:33:55,410 Dagobert: I mean, eventually, once you learn to do that. 439 00:33:55,410 --> 00:34:00,870 Dagobert: But it's about what's the vision for all these people? 440 00:34:01,470 --> 00:34:02,890 Dagobert: What's the vision for the community? 441 00:34:03,970 --> 00:34:06,130 Dagobert: How do you connect this to other things? 442 00:34:06,830 --> 00:34:14,930 Dagobert: So yeah, Basecamp for me is a good example because they really managed to change the way people approach project management and everything. 443 00:34:15,110 --> 00:34:19,430 Dagobert: And they made a big dent in this market, even though they were bootstrapped and everything. 444 00:34:20,150 --> 00:34:22,170 Dagobert: And that's an example for me. 445 00:34:22,750 --> 00:34:26,570 Dagobert: But I don't have any big recent example. 446 00:34:26,830 --> 00:34:31,070 Dagobert: And that's why I'm a bit depressed when I open the Twitter timeline, I guess. 447 00:34:31,430 --> 00:34:36,970 Dagobert: I don't see a lot of products that make me go, wow, shit, they really changed something. 448 00:34:37,090 --> 00:34:37,990 Dagobert: They really made something. 449 00:34:38,570 --> 00:34:40,310 Dagobert: It doesn't mean they are not cool products. 450 00:34:40,650 --> 00:34:44,190 Dagobert: But it's hard to relate it to a bigger vision, maybe. 451 00:34:44,830 --> 00:34:52,610 Nesters: I think if you scale it down a little bit, I think that might actually be one of the reasons why some people don't launch. 452 00:34:52,690 --> 00:35:03,210 Nesters: It's not even that they're afraid to launch, but they don't actually feel like there's even that mini vision of like, it's a deep pain they're trying to solve for someone. 453 00:35:03,210 --> 00:35:10,290 Nesters: Because often what you see is that people start asking, like, oh, I'm thinking about like something like scheduling, like a scheduling tool. 454 00:35:10,390 --> 00:35:14,370 Nesters: And they start asking you questions about like, so what tool do you use? 455 00:35:14,410 --> 00:35:16,170 Nesters: Like, what are the good things about it? 456 00:35:16,350 --> 00:35:19,730 Nesters: And it's like, it does very generic questions about the tooling. 457 00:35:19,890 --> 00:35:23,970 Nesters: And I'm like, but those are not the questions I should be answering to you. 458 00:35:24,410 --> 00:35:28,410 Nesters: You should also actually feel the problem already existing there. 459 00:35:28,670 --> 00:35:31,710 Nesters: And then from that problem, do you already feel the pain? 460 00:35:32,170 --> 00:35:43,830 Nesters: You go talk to some potential customers to those people with that pain and you show them like, okay, so you have this pain or ask them about the pain and you'd be like, okay, how about we try to solve this pain like in this kind of way? 461 00:35:44,050 --> 00:35:45,290 Nesters: And does it make sense to you? 462 00:35:45,290 --> 00:35:51,410 Nesters: Kind of like start empathizing with the potential customer, potential user for that product. 463 00:35:51,710 --> 00:36:02,390 Nesters: And I believe that's one of the reasons people actually do not launch because they don't have that mini vision of their product of how they will actually solve something for a person. 464 00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:19,810 Nesters: And they're more like, I'm just going to build one more thing in this niche because I feel like there's something I can address with features and there's keywords and there's some opportunity for SEO, let's say, not as in I'm actually empathizing with the user and the pain they have, 465 00:36:19,830 --> 00:36:23,370 Nesters: and I'm actually going to deliver something small for them that will solve the problem. 466 00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:26,650 Nesters: And potentially there will be a payoff for you. 467 00:36:30,210 --> 00:36:34,690 Nesters: That's not a big vision, by the way, that's just a small vision a person could have. 468 00:36:35,070 --> 00:36:41,350 Nesters: And I think if you actually start empathizing with the problem, be like, no, I want to solve it, you will actually launch the product. 469 00:36:42,010 --> 00:36:43,350 Dagobert: Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. 470 00:36:43,450 --> 00:36:48,830 Dagobert: And like, there's this thing of like, always asking customers for the answer. 471 00:36:49,410 --> 00:36:56,030 Dagobert: Like you're always asking customers, always interviewing customers, which of course is super important because you need to understand them. 472 00:36:56,950 --> 00:37:01,510 Dagobert: But eventually you just do what they ask and you don't have your own vision. 473 00:37:01,510 --> 00:37:13,610 Dagobert: When I think what you should do, I mean, you can do what you want, of course, but it's like, talk with them and then figure out yourself, even if they might not agree. 474 00:37:14,410 --> 00:37:26,390 Dagobert: For example, for me, for launch day, I'm actually, as the vision grows, I'm realizing, oh shit, some people who already paid for it, maybe they're not a good fit anymore. 475 00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:32,530 Dagobert: You know, but like, you need to be able to say, okay, I know what I'm doing now. 476 00:37:33,070 --> 00:37:36,030 Dagobert: And so I'm going to make a clear vision of this. 477 00:37:36,910 --> 00:37:39,930 Dagobert: And it's okay if not everybody likes it. 478 00:37:40,030 --> 00:37:42,330 Dagobert: It's okay if it doesn't meet the needs of everybody. 479 00:37:42,750 --> 00:37:44,570 Dagobert: I don't have to say yes to everyone. 480 00:37:45,190 --> 00:37:46,190 Dagobert: I'm just having a vision. 481 00:37:46,330 --> 00:37:47,930 Dagobert: I'm trying to take this somewhere. 482 00:37:47,930 --> 00:37:53,050 Dagobert: And I feel like when you see this whole ship fast mentality, it's kind of like against this. 483 00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:57,070 Dagobert: It's just do try things randomly and then you see a result. 484 00:37:57,170 --> 00:37:58,930 Dagobert: And if people say it's good, then you continue. 485 00:37:59,470 --> 00:38:17,910 Dagobert: But you might miss a 10 times bigger opportunity by doing that because you don't take the time to stop and think and see from all the insights that you gather, like kind of like a unique and original idea to solve it in a way that's way better. 486 00:38:17,910 --> 00:38:22,570 Dagobert: And that will actually inspire people way more. 487 00:38:23,910 --> 00:38:27,550 Nesters: Yeah, I guess we need to give another question a go. 488 00:38:27,790 --> 00:38:32,370 Nesters: And maybe Stanislav, I think you were actually requesting to speak for... 489 00:38:33,090 --> 00:38:33,390 Stanislav: Yeah. 490 00:38:34,090 --> 00:38:38,310 Stanislav: If you don't mind, I don't have the question, more like a comment. 491 00:38:39,970 --> 00:38:40,030 Stanislav: Right. 492 00:38:40,030 --> 00:38:46,610 Stanislav: I was discussing about hunting for the cool things and trying to build cool stuff. 493 00:38:47,570 --> 00:38:59,970 Stanislav: I want to like, I had a lot of thoughts about this particular topic, because I was hunting for cool things most of my life, and I see where it got me. 494 00:38:59,970 --> 00:39:04,450 Stanislav: And I was questioning if I did right. 495 00:39:05,410 --> 00:39:10,450 Stanislav: And I want to just share like a story, my own experience on this topic. 496 00:39:12,790 --> 00:39:17,590 Stanislav: Because I had two or three ideas that I kind of stumbled upon. 497 00:39:18,630 --> 00:39:22,330 Stanislav: And I was pretty sure they're making money. 498 00:39:22,430 --> 00:39:23,610 Stanislav: I was making money with them. 499 00:39:24,610 --> 00:39:34,250 Stanislav: But at certain moment, they felt too sleazy, too ethically questionable, or something or not enjoyable at all. 500 00:39:34,590 --> 00:39:37,070 Stanislav: But they were making really, really good money. 501 00:39:39,130 --> 00:39:45,890 Stanislav: And at a certain point, I decided, well, let me kind of look for that cool idea instead. 502 00:39:46,850 --> 00:39:50,110 Stanislav: And I stepped away from that idea. 503 00:39:50,410 --> 00:39:54,390 Stanislav: And I know two of them I shared with my friends, those ideas. 504 00:39:54,390 --> 00:39:56,310 Stanislav: And they continue doing them. 505 00:39:57,010 --> 00:40:02,610 Stanislav: And they did pretty good money with that blueprint that I gave them. 506 00:40:03,930 --> 00:40:07,530 Stanislav: And continue to this day, making good money. 507 00:40:08,670 --> 00:40:13,910 Stanislav: But I didn't succeed in building the cool ideas. 508 00:40:14,890 --> 00:40:22,130 Stanislav: I spent most of the money, I do have some money left, but not enough money left to not worry about employment or stuff like that. 509 00:40:22,130 --> 00:40:30,910 Stanislav: And I had certain breakdowns, nervous breakdowns and questionable, am I good enough for any of this? 510 00:40:31,130 --> 00:40:36,170 Stanislav: You know, like, should I just give up and be a regular employee from this point? 511 00:40:36,170 --> 00:40:45,250 Stanislav: And I've been always asking myself, is this quest for the cool idea, is that justified? 512 00:40:45,610 --> 00:40:51,970 Stanislav: Should I continue with this sleazy idea instead and make enough money and not worry about stuff? 513 00:40:52,430 --> 00:40:58,850 Stanislav: I don't know, there's two sides of the coin, and I'm not sure that I picked the right one. 514 00:40:59,570 --> 00:41:03,370 Nesters: Yeah, was there a cool idea focused on some kind of features? 515 00:41:03,570 --> 00:41:07,210 Nesters: Was it focused on pain points or specific use? 516 00:41:07,330 --> 00:41:11,330 Nesters: What drove you to that cool idea, I guess? 517 00:41:14,570 --> 00:41:26,410 Stanislav: Yeah, so I think by now, since I still continue my quest for the cool idea, I'm pretty sure that my sweet spot is building a software. 518 00:41:26,410 --> 00:41:31,210 Stanislav: I know that it's harder to make money with that. 519 00:41:31,350 --> 00:41:35,450 Stanislav: I want to have my own small software that I sell. 520 00:41:35,710 --> 00:41:37,270 Stanislav: I don't need a lot of money doing that. 521 00:41:38,430 --> 00:41:40,030 Stanislav: But it's really hard to do it. 522 00:41:40,870 --> 00:41:45,210 Stanislav: But all other ideas that I made money before, they were not building software. 523 00:41:45,410 --> 00:41:49,270 Stanislav: They were trading or something with crypto or other stuff. 524 00:41:49,270 --> 00:41:53,650 Stanislav: They were not my idea, the cool idea. 525 00:41:57,370 --> 00:42:02,830 Nesters: Yeah, I guess my question was more like, who is this idea for? 526 00:42:03,070 --> 00:42:06,490 Nesters: What's your customer profile for your software idea? 527 00:42:06,830 --> 00:42:08,530 Nesters: What problem are you solving? 528 00:42:08,530 --> 00:42:15,410 Nesters: I guess that's one question that usually needs to be answered to make sure you actually start making money. 529 00:42:15,610 --> 00:42:19,210 Nesters: What exactly are we solving with the software? 530 00:42:20,350 --> 00:42:31,790 Stanislav: Well, now I'm building software for myself, not for some potential audience where I could potentially make a lot of money, but I don't understand myself. 531 00:42:31,790 --> 00:42:34,450 Stanislav: Now I'm building software for myself. 532 00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:35,210 Stanislav: I'm a developer. 533 00:42:35,350 --> 00:42:38,010 Stanislav: I'm building software for developers to make sure I understand. 534 00:42:38,710 --> 00:42:41,990 Stanislav: And I think this is the right, cool idea for me. 535 00:42:43,710 --> 00:42:44,350 Nesters: All right. 536 00:42:45,770 --> 00:42:46,910 Nesters: I don't know, maybe someone else. 537 00:42:47,090 --> 00:42:47,930 Nesters: Daigo has a comment. 538 00:42:50,330 --> 00:43:00,410 Dagobert: Yeah, I really emphasize when you follow the ideas that you really care about. 539 00:43:01,510 --> 00:43:08,570 Dagobert: Because I'm not sure it would have hurt so much if one of the crypto projects didn't make money. 540 00:43:09,350 --> 00:43:14,630 Dagobert: Because if it's not an idea you really care about, then you don't, you don't, it doesn't matter as much. 541 00:43:15,030 --> 00:43:16,230 Dagobert: It just makes me think of that. 542 00:43:16,330 --> 00:43:32,670 Dagobert: Just makes me think of like, one reason we can be scared of going after our big ideas is that, well, as you just said, like it hurts when you fail, like it hurts way more. 543 00:43:32,670 --> 00:43:38,670 Dagobert: Like if you just ship something that you don't really care about, if you fail, it doesn't really matter. 544 00:43:40,710 --> 00:43:44,450 Dagobert: And so I think, you know, that that's just what, what it makes me think about. 545 00:43:44,450 --> 00:44:02,110 Nesters: Do you think that you might, people are sometimes launching like small, random projects, because they're actually like, afraid to be vulnerable, like open themselves up more and actually put themselves in the product more. 546 00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:08,490 Nesters: So that would actually have like this ego pain, pain body, you know, experience? 547 00:44:08,490 --> 00:44:09,930 Dagobert: I think so. 548 00:44:10,050 --> 00:44:16,110 Dagobert: Yeah, I think like, it's so much more difficult, man, when you put your heart into something, and you really give it. 549 00:44:16,850 --> 00:44:27,090 Dagobert: And what I want to say, though, is when you put your heart into something, even if it fails, like, in terms of scale, but you still managed to touch a few people. 550 00:44:27,810 --> 00:44:33,310 Dagobert: It's so meaningful, like, it's so meaningful when you really like my previous startup that didn't succeed that much. 551 00:44:34,370 --> 00:44:37,730 Dagobert: We still managed to find, you know, customers for a while. 552 00:44:38,070 --> 00:44:41,090 Dagobert: And every time they really loved it, it was the best feeling. 553 00:44:41,310 --> 00:44:47,870 Dagobert: It felt way better than anything else, because it was something that was coming, you know, from us. 554 00:44:47,870 --> 00:45:01,010 Dagobert: And so, yeah, I think, yeah, I think it's a, but yeah, but but like, I don't want to under emphasize the difficulty. 555 00:45:01,670 --> 00:45:12,570 Dagobert: Because you know, when like, it's so hard to go from something you dream about, or you have in your head, that's like a beautiful thing and transform that into a successful business. 556 00:45:12,570 --> 00:45:20,170 Dagobert: I think it's way harder than studying the market, looking for a need, responding to that need. 557 00:45:21,030 --> 00:45:24,770 Dagobert: And then, you know, making some money, following a trend or something. 558 00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:27,910 Dagobert: And so yeah, it hurts way more. 559 00:45:28,010 --> 00:45:31,030 Dagobert: So I think it's normal that we avoid doing that. 560 00:45:33,010 --> 00:45:52,890 Nesters: And, and isn't it in a tech space, a huge problem when people are very analytical that they're actually focus a lot on features rather than, let's say, their idea that they want to, like, transform the world with, I guess, but they just focus on like, 561 00:45:53,250 --> 00:46:00,650 Nesters: technological idea, you know, but a text, like, and you can change the market, change the world with all kinds of open source projects. 562 00:46:00,650 --> 00:46:06,890 Nesters: Let's say we had a gap last week, actually, about open source software and marketing strategies as well. 563 00:46:07,110 --> 00:46:16,090 Nesters: And like, you can change the world with like, technology that way as well, obviously, as a developer, because you have your idea, and you just go with it. 564 00:46:16,610 --> 00:46:29,290 Nesters: But isn't it also with some other projects that sometimes happens that if you're, your idea is somewhere in a space where you actually need to connect with people, but you're focused a lot on the features as a developer, well, it's your like, deep idea. 565 00:46:29,290 --> 00:46:40,990 Nesters: You're kind of taken a little bit astray with the fact that you focus on the feature part, rather than the end customer, you know, the end user of that product. 566 00:46:43,090 --> 00:46:50,190 Dagobert: Yeah, I think it's also because, because the same reason, like, it's so scary to do that, that we go into our comfort zone. 567 00:46:50,650 --> 00:46:53,370 Dagobert: Like, for example, I was a front end engineer. 568 00:46:53,850 --> 00:46:58,670 Dagobert: And so before launching my previous startup, I spent so long on the front end. 569 00:46:58,670 --> 00:47:00,410 Dagobert: Which wasn't necessary. 570 00:47:01,310 --> 00:47:10,210 Dagobert: I spent, I remember spending three weeks on just a fucking animation in the background on the homepage, because I was excited. 571 00:47:10,610 --> 00:47:14,570 Dagobert: And it's not because it was going to bring value, it was going to help me find customers. 572 00:47:15,210 --> 00:47:20,190 Dagobert: It's because I was scared of sharing and launching this previous product. 573 00:47:20,510 --> 00:47:26,430 Dagobert: And so it made me feel more safe to do what I knew, which is front end. 574 00:47:26,430 --> 00:47:32,390 Dagobert: So I just over-engineered the front end, because at least front end, I know, and I feel safe. 575 00:47:33,290 --> 00:47:36,830 Dagobert: But, you know, launching, it's not safe. 576 00:47:37,350 --> 00:47:46,270 Dagobert: So I think since a lot of us are engineers or developers, then we're going to tend to over-engineer, because at least we feel safe. 577 00:47:46,270 --> 00:47:51,670 Dagobert: When we're over-engineering something, we're comfortable, it's something that we have control over. 578 00:47:52,510 --> 00:47:54,950 Dagobert: But, you know, when you launch, it's chaotic. 579 00:47:55,570 --> 00:47:57,410 Dagobert: And then you don't know what's going to happen. 580 00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:58,070 Dagobert: And it's scary. 581 00:47:59,990 --> 00:48:05,770 Nesters: And, yeah, I guess we need to pick up another question for Stefan, I guess. 582 00:48:06,830 --> 00:48:07,670 Stefan: Hey, yeah. 583 00:48:09,190 --> 00:48:10,690 Stefan: Thanks for having me up. 584 00:48:10,770 --> 00:48:21,010 Stefan: And thanks, Dago, for sharing your thoughts with such nuance and vulnerability, because I guess I've seen a few of your posts and some of the comments underneath them. 585 00:48:21,010 --> 00:48:26,810 Stefan: But this is definitely a lot more nuanced conversation than you see on Twitter or those posts. 586 00:48:27,650 --> 00:48:33,070 Stefan: So I wanted to ask you, like, I'm someone that's just starting out in my own journey of building. 587 00:48:34,030 --> 00:48:47,250 Stefan: And I spent the first, like, three months of, like, late last year into early this year, I also delayed shipping, because I had this vision, and that project eventually flopped, and I realized I was just, like, afraid of shipping it. 588 00:48:47,950 --> 00:48:54,910 Stefan: And then I remember, like, I joined Small Bets about a year and a half ago, and I remember the lessons that Daniel shared with all of us in that. 589 00:48:56,190 --> 00:49:00,010 Stefan: So I guess my question is, like, how do you balance vision and speed? 590 00:49:00,070 --> 00:49:03,930 Stefan: Because, like, you mentioned, like, people like Steve Jobs, or Elon Musk, even. 591 00:49:05,490 --> 00:49:07,650 Stefan: Like, Steve Jobs started with really small things. 592 00:49:07,790 --> 00:49:13,470 Stefan: You know, like, if you listen to his biography, he started with, like, he didn't start immediately with the Macintosh, right? 593 00:49:13,470 --> 00:49:18,670 Stefan: He started with, like, a small vision board, or a computer board that he sold, like, 100 units of. 594 00:49:19,450 --> 00:49:23,510 Stefan: And even Elon Musk, like, his very first things were not, like, SpaceX and Tesla. 595 00:49:24,570 --> 00:49:30,070 Stefan: And even he, like, with SpaceX, like, his whole thing is about, like, you have to move fast. 596 00:49:30,370 --> 00:49:32,310 Stefan: Like, that's what he instills in all of his companies. 597 00:49:32,490 --> 00:49:34,670 Stefan: Like, you have to have, like, a maniacal sense of urgency. 598 00:49:35,990 --> 00:49:41,230 Stefan: So, like, I know there's some nuance to this, but I think, like, either extreme is probably too far, you know? 599 00:49:41,230 --> 00:49:47,450 Stefan: Like, if you're delaying shipping, that might be a form of avoidance of some fear that you have. 600 00:49:47,690 --> 00:49:53,250 Stefan: But if you're shipping too fast, that also might be delaying or avoiding whatever fear you have. 601 00:49:53,350 --> 00:49:55,870 Stefan: So, like, how do you find the right balance between those two extremes? 602 00:49:57,690 --> 00:50:02,430 Dagobert: Yeah, so, you really shouldn't ask me, because I ship nothing in one year. 603 00:50:03,330 --> 00:50:16,750 Dagobert: But I actually, yeah, that's exactly what I was thinking of the other day, is that I think you just need to be mindful of not falling into one side. 604 00:50:17,730 --> 00:50:21,750 Dagobert: Like, basically, I think it's just about trying to not be driven by fear. 605 00:50:22,410 --> 00:50:32,470 Dagobert: Because I cannot launch and over-engineer and keep working on the vision and everything because I'm afraid people will not like it. 606 00:50:32,770 --> 00:50:33,670 Dagobert: It's not good enough. 607 00:50:34,410 --> 00:50:46,670 Dagobert: Or you can start shipping so fast that it helps you numb any attachment to your product and disconnect from any big vision. 608 00:50:47,370 --> 00:50:50,730 Dagobert: And I think that's not a good mindset either. 609 00:50:50,730 --> 00:51:00,570 Dagobert: Even though this mindset probably is going to make you money, but it might not lead to making any meaningful product that you're proud of. 610 00:51:01,590 --> 00:51:04,050 Dagobert: And having said that, you can also have both. 611 00:51:04,150 --> 00:51:07,730 Dagobert: You have seen people who ship super fast and they end up, you know... 612 00:51:08,610 --> 00:51:10,750 Dagobert: Because obviously, the goal is to ship fast. 613 00:51:11,110 --> 00:51:14,370 Dagobert: But the goal is to ship mindfully. 614 00:51:14,950 --> 00:51:15,990 Dagobert: At least that's my goal. 615 00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:25,810 Dagobert: My ultimate goal would be to have this kind of zen-like state where I can be mindful, not driven by fear, and ship fast. 616 00:51:25,910 --> 00:51:28,110 Dagobert: But not because I'm afraid or because I'm in a rush. 617 00:51:28,270 --> 00:51:32,270 Dagobert: Just because I'm present, I work efficiently, I'm moving fast. 618 00:51:32,570 --> 00:51:35,370 Dagobert: And obviously, speed is better, I think. 619 00:51:35,450 --> 00:51:39,070 Dagobert: I don't think there's any value in being slower than you need to be. 620 00:51:39,070 --> 00:51:42,090 Dagobert: But I just think, I'm just... 621 00:51:42,630 --> 00:51:48,390 Dagobert: And again, I appreciate that you're asking me for my opinion, my advice. 622 00:51:48,470 --> 00:51:54,210 Dagobert: But I also feel like right now, I'm in no position to teach about shipping speed at all. 623 00:51:55,590 --> 00:51:56,690 Dagobert: I won't, you know... 624 00:51:56,690 --> 00:52:00,070 Dagobert: But anyway, that's just my two cents that... 625 00:52:01,050 --> 00:52:04,410 Dagobert: The goal, I think, is to avoid fear and to find kind of like a balance. 626 00:52:06,350 --> 00:52:07,530 Nesters: Yeah, I think I will... 627 00:52:08,010 --> 00:52:09,190 Nesters: Okay, I guess Daniel can go. 628 00:52:09,550 --> 00:52:23,630 Daniel: Yeah, I was going to say, I think, at least for me, but I think if you observe many other successful entrepreneurs, is that, you know, the way this is balanced, again, it's like picking smaller scoped things, at least in the beginning. 629 00:52:23,630 --> 00:52:37,330 Daniel: Like even Elon Musk, I think, I'm not saying, but when working on Tesla, he wasn't working on like the self-driving technology or robotaxis or whatever it was. 630 00:52:37,530 --> 00:52:44,810 Daniel: You know, he took the chassis of an existing car, one of the Lotus something, right, and put a battery pack on it. 631 00:52:44,850 --> 00:52:50,330 Daniel: It was very scrappy, it had reliability issues, it has bugs and so on and so forth. 632 00:52:50,330 --> 00:52:54,170 Daniel: But it was not just a proof of concept, it was an iteration. 633 00:52:54,370 --> 00:52:56,610 Daniel: It was something, I think, he was still proud of it. 634 00:52:56,730 --> 00:53:10,370 Daniel: I think he said it himself, very proud, probably maybe even one of his proudest projects, to actually make a viable electric car that had reasonably high range and looked good and so on and so forth. 635 00:53:10,690 --> 00:53:18,290 Daniel: And I think, of course, you know, Elon Musk is an extreme case, and I wouldn't necessarily use him as a role model for the stuff that we're doing. 636 00:53:18,290 --> 00:53:19,910 Daniel: But you start to generalize. 637 00:53:20,530 --> 00:53:23,470 Daniel: We mentioned Jason Fried with Basecamp, same thing, I think. 638 00:53:23,610 --> 00:53:31,270 Daniel: Sort of when you observe everything that they do, they started very small with small scoped project, right? 639 00:53:31,370 --> 00:53:38,890 Daniel: And Basecamp today, if it's like 20 years old or whatever, and it has sort of lots of sophisticated features and integrations and so on and so forth. 640 00:53:39,250 --> 00:53:40,470 Daniel: It didn't start like that, right? 641 00:53:40,470 --> 00:53:47,210 Daniel: It started as a small thing that I think they built in a quarter or a few months. 642 00:53:47,350 --> 00:53:50,370 Daniel: I forgot exactly how long it took them to bring something to market. 643 00:53:50,850 --> 00:53:58,170 Daniel: I think if Jason was here, because I've seen him say this, he agrees that you don't want to ship a half-assed product that you're not proud of. 644 00:53:58,690 --> 00:54:03,570 Daniel: There is some level that you want to be, you know... 645 00:54:03,570 --> 00:54:08,690 Daniel: For example, I don't agree very much, me personally, with like, you should be embarrassed of your first version. 646 00:54:08,690 --> 00:54:12,470 Daniel: I somewhat dislike that, which I think is in line with what we're talking about here. 647 00:54:12,770 --> 00:54:22,350 Daniel: Like, I understand the sentiment that almost always the first version is going to have some things that are maybe not included yet or missing and so on and so forth. 648 00:54:22,450 --> 00:54:29,190 Daniel: But it still should be a small thing that you like. 649 00:54:29,190 --> 00:54:34,390 Daniel: So it's sort of this idea of like fixed scope, flexible budget. 650 00:54:35,050 --> 00:54:38,470 Daniel: Sorry, fixed budget, flexible scope, the other way around. 651 00:54:39,690 --> 00:54:47,590 Daniel: I think it's important when you're trying to tame the uncertainty of the markets, because if you have commercial aspirations, that's the biggest problem. 652 00:54:47,850 --> 00:54:50,030 Daniel: That's why it's hard to make money with anything. 653 00:54:50,330 --> 00:54:51,830 Daniel: I was talking about AWS before. 654 00:54:51,830 --> 00:54:55,930 Daniel: And this is an eye-opener for me, having worked at Amazon. 655 00:54:56,470 --> 00:55:01,110 Daniel: Despite Amazon having all the advantages you could imagine, think about it. 656 00:55:01,210 --> 00:55:07,970 Daniel: Amazon has immense brand recognition, immense financial position, lots of money, lots of cash flow. 657 00:55:09,110 --> 00:55:13,850 Daniel: Very talented employees, engineers, business leaders, and so on and so forth. 658 00:55:14,130 --> 00:55:19,350 Daniel: Jeff Bezos as the CEO, connections to customers, data about customers. 659 00:55:19,350 --> 00:55:23,370 Daniel: Every single advantage you could think of, they pretty much had it. 660 00:55:23,630 --> 00:55:28,510 Daniel: Yet, still, they weren't just making sure wins. 661 00:55:28,770 --> 00:55:31,030 Daniel: I mean, there weren't like slam dunk wins with the project. 662 00:55:31,170 --> 00:55:38,890 Daniel: It was still experimentation, putting things out there, seeing what works, doubling down on what works, throwing away the rest and so on and so forth. 663 00:55:39,030 --> 00:55:39,190 Daniel: Why? 664 00:55:39,350 --> 00:55:48,250 Daniel: Because, unfortunately, even when you have all the data, all the information, all the very smart people, the market is just so complex. 665 00:55:48,250 --> 00:55:50,690 Daniel: Nobody has figured out the recipe for success. 666 00:55:50,870 --> 00:55:57,570 Daniel: It's like a matter of, oh, you put a lot of effort into something and it's just going to start printing money or things like that. 667 00:55:57,730 --> 00:56:03,890 Daniel: So, it seems like the way to tame some of that uncertainty is like take small bets. 668 00:56:04,010 --> 00:56:13,030 Daniel: Again, to use sort of my favorite phrase, it's like your time box, usually time or money as well, if you're investing capital. 669 00:56:14,210 --> 00:56:19,490 Daniel: You define an iteration, you want to have something that you like, you're proud of, but it's a small thing. 670 00:56:19,690 --> 00:56:27,030 Daniel: You put it out there and then you sort of reassess whether to make another increment or not. 671 00:56:27,250 --> 00:56:28,950 Daniel: Another small bet, basically. 672 00:56:31,930 --> 00:56:41,450 Daniel: So, yeah, I think it's dangerous to start with a grand vision and start to pursue it immediately. 673 00:56:41,450 --> 00:56:49,430 Daniel: Because the market is almost, I wouldn't say certainly, but very likely is going to hurt your feelings. 674 00:56:51,130 --> 00:56:53,010 Daniel: The market doesn't really care. 675 00:56:53,190 --> 00:57:05,110 Daniel: And sometimes what resonates with people, even if you put in a lot of effort, it just might be the name that you chose or the one word in your landing page copy. 676 00:57:05,110 --> 00:57:16,230 Daniel: At the end of the day, believe it or not, businesses depend on very small things that are just very hard to predict what the day will be. 677 00:57:18,270 --> 00:57:27,350 Daniel: So, yeah, it's a bit of a mechanism as well and sort of also to make sure that we don't get burnt out or become demoralized. 678 00:57:27,350 --> 00:57:35,730 Daniel: Because I really think the real risk that we're taking as solopreneurs, self-employed, bootstrappers, whatever, usually it's not that we... 679 00:57:35,730 --> 00:57:36,830 Daniel: Hopefully, we're a bit prudent. 680 00:57:36,930 --> 00:57:39,010 Daniel: It's not like we end up homeless on the street or whatever. 681 00:57:39,410 --> 00:57:48,190 Daniel: But probably our game over state is a psychological one, that we become demoralized, discouraged, burnt out, and we feel like, okay, that's it. 682 00:57:48,730 --> 00:57:49,810 Daniel: This is not for me. 683 00:57:49,850 --> 00:57:51,750 Daniel: I'm going to go back to a full-time job. 684 00:57:51,750 --> 00:58:04,130 Daniel: And personally, look, I'm very careful with that because I know my limits and I don't want to get discouraged and demoralized and burnt out and so on and so forth. 685 00:58:04,270 --> 00:58:17,590 Daniel: So for me, my mechanism to operate in the real world, where there's finite time, my lifetime is not limited, my patience is not limited, my runway is not unlimited, nothing is unlimited. 686 00:58:17,590 --> 00:58:29,410 Daniel: I have to put limits in place that allows me to stay motivated, keep making money, again, because the order matters here. 687 00:58:29,510 --> 00:58:37,910 Daniel: If you're not making money, you end up being forced to do something that reduces your options. 688 00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:51,430 Nesters: By the way, I didn't want to interrupt your speech, but it was that I wanted to tell you that the input device might have switched after you rejoined because it was on the loud side now. 689 00:58:51,790 --> 00:58:52,010 Daniel: Really? 690 00:58:52,230 --> 00:58:54,710 Daniel: So I am louder or lower? 691 00:58:54,710 --> 00:58:55,770 Nesters: Yeah, you're louder now. 692 00:58:55,990 --> 00:58:59,050 Nesters: I don't know why, but I actually also reduced my mic. 693 00:58:59,110 --> 00:59:01,150 Nesters: Maybe I can put my mic a bit louder again. 694 00:59:01,150 --> 00:59:03,810 Nesters: Because I was trying to match Dago before. 695 00:59:05,690 --> 00:59:07,410 Nesters: Yeah, but the points were great. 696 00:59:08,790 --> 00:59:10,390 Nesters: Oh yeah, Stephan, you wanted to add something? 697 00:59:10,710 --> 00:59:17,090 Stefan: Yeah, I wanted to add that everything you just said makes 100% sense to me, and that's why I'm trying to ship fast. 698 00:59:17,170 --> 00:59:25,130 Stefan: Because it sounds like, from what I can see from all the successful solopreneurs, it sounds like the game is surviving long enough to reach your success. 699 00:59:25,130 --> 00:59:35,810 Stefan: And also, the faster you iterate, the faster you get that real feedback from the market when it slaps you in the face and says, your idea sucks, you need to do something better. 700 00:59:36,550 --> 00:59:41,910 Stefan: So if you take really long, then you're going to get a few iteration cycles before you either burn out or run out of money. 701 00:59:42,430 --> 00:59:42,830 Daniel: Exactly. 702 00:59:43,130 --> 00:59:46,130 Daniel: And when you think about it, when you spend six months on a project... 703 00:59:46,650 --> 00:59:48,610 Daniel: Look, six months is an incredibly long time. 704 00:59:48,750 --> 00:59:50,350 Daniel: I mean, I'm 42. 705 00:59:51,090 --> 00:59:54,330 Daniel: I don't have a lot of six-month periods left in my life. 706 00:59:54,330 --> 00:59:58,090 Daniel: When you think about it, it's an incredible investment. 707 00:59:58,950 --> 01:00:03,410 Daniel: And of course, it's not the full amount of time in my life. 708 01:00:03,510 --> 01:00:09,170 Daniel: I mean, you have to deal with the reality of motivation and savings and other things. 709 01:00:09,430 --> 01:00:14,990 Daniel: So yeah, it's important, I think, that we realize how valuable time is. 710 01:00:14,990 --> 01:00:17,570 Daniel: And we spend it diligently. 711 01:00:18,110 --> 01:00:25,470 Daniel: I like to think of it like I'm investing my time, very much like how I would be investing money in the stock market or whatever. 712 01:00:25,990 --> 01:00:32,370 Daniel: Every day, I'm given a number of hours that I could choose to invest however I want. 713 01:00:32,430 --> 01:00:35,970 Daniel: And I want to have a high return on investment for them, and I want to take prudent risks. 714 01:00:36,290 --> 01:00:43,050 Daniel: And just like in investing in finance, I don't want to go all in into one stock or one industry or whatever. 715 01:00:43,050 --> 01:00:46,750 Daniel: I want to be diversified and reasonably hedged and so on and so forth. 716 01:00:47,250 --> 01:00:52,650 Daniel: It's very much sort of similar, I think, principles apply when you're dealing with something uncertain. 717 01:00:53,330 --> 01:00:58,390 Daniel: Because why don't we go all in on Tesla, for example, and we put all our life savings there? 718 01:00:58,850 --> 01:01:06,590 Daniel: I mean, we might believe in Elon Musk and in Tesla and so on and so forth, but we understand that there's a lot of uncertainty beyond anyone's control. 719 01:01:06,590 --> 01:01:14,010 Daniel: I mean, whether there's like an economic recession or some new trade war, or some big recall or some competitor that comes out. 720 01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:18,370 Daniel: I mean, we understand that there's lots of variables that we can't really predict. 721 01:01:18,730 --> 01:01:20,710 Daniel: So we claim those things, right? 722 01:01:20,870 --> 01:01:30,270 Daniel: We say, okay, I'm going to only put like 10% of my investment into Tesla or 5% or whatever you think is reasonable compared to your circumstance. 723 01:01:30,270 --> 01:01:34,610 Daniel: Which, by the way, I think something that I think Dago touched on in the beginning, which I think is very valuable. 724 01:01:35,030 --> 01:01:39,350 Daniel: Everything we're talking about today really depends as well about your circumstances. 725 01:01:39,570 --> 01:01:46,170 Daniel: If you have like one month of runway left, and you desperately need to make something work, it's one thing. 726 01:01:46,630 --> 01:01:52,310 Daniel: But if you're already wealthy, and you don't even need to work for money anymore, it's another extreme. 727 01:01:52,310 --> 01:02:00,590 Daniel: And then there's all the other things in the middle that you might need to balance and choose different shapes and so on and so forth. 728 01:02:00,690 --> 01:02:02,110 Daniel: So that's also an important thing. 729 01:02:02,470 --> 01:02:07,730 Daniel: And I think also sometimes age is affected as well, age or what stage in your life. 730 01:02:07,830 --> 01:02:16,010 Daniel: Like if you're 20 years old, you want to learn, you want to expose yourself to new things, whatever, you might choose to do different things. 731 01:02:16,010 --> 01:02:25,030 Daniel: If you have family, kids, and you're saving for retirement, and you want stability, you also choose other things as well. 732 01:02:25,110 --> 01:02:28,150 Daniel: So I think all these things are important aspects. 733 01:02:29,890 --> 01:02:35,270 Nesters: Yeah, actually, because having kids, I also have a daughter now, she's not now she's seven. 734 01:02:35,470 --> 01:02:50,010 Nesters: But in between like, ages, this is from like, she when she was born to like, when she was like, three, or it was actually, it was horrible in many ways, especially considering she was colic and wouldn't sleep for the first couple, like for the first year, 735 01:02:50,110 --> 01:02:54,910 Nesters: actually, she had like, sleep issues, always crying, so I wouldn't sleep as well. 736 01:02:54,910 --> 01:03:01,990 Nesters: So I was feeling bad, not getting sleep and needing to go to work, but I was still in nine to five until I like left. 737 01:03:02,970 --> 01:03:22,310 Nesters: Actually in the before her first birthday, but yeah, but anyway, during that time, I think that one of another issue is that when you're trying to like ship these products, honestly, when you have kids, like you want to be way more efficient than that one of those stressors actually is needed to actually ship something and maybe even do something more efficiently and do something better. 738 01:03:22,310 --> 01:03:37,170 Nesters: And I guess also nowadays that we have less kids in general, especially in the younger age, like a younger stage of life, you might actually just like procrastinate on shipping, you might take more longer time with the features you're gonna add, you just not need, 739 01:03:37,390 --> 01:03:47,050 Nesters: you might not just take it as seriously because the stressors are not there, especially in tech, if you have a good paying job, no kids, why would you even ship in a way, you know, why would you? 740 01:03:47,050 --> 01:03:48,530 Daniel: I 100% agree. 741 01:03:48,690 --> 01:03:50,190 Daniel: And I think it's a very good observation. 742 01:03:50,450 --> 01:04:02,230 Daniel: It's sort of like, you know, sometimes, actually, this is not a very, you know, original observation, we all know that constraints breed creativity, like it's a well known phenomenon, right? 743 01:04:02,290 --> 01:04:13,290 Daniel: And we probably all felt this, like when we're close to some deadline, we leave something to the end, and the last minute, we feel just more energy, more motivation, things become easier to do, and so on and so forth. 744 01:04:13,290 --> 01:04:23,630 Daniel: And I think part of this, yeah, sometimes life forces you, look, I think, but however, to be realistic, there's also things that you have to do that when you have less time, you have to leave things on the table. 745 01:04:24,130 --> 01:04:34,950 Daniel: You know, I see things on Twitter that people like sort of in the people level sphere, for example, are doing, maybe they're all a bit younger than me, maybe they don't have families yet. 746 01:04:34,950 --> 01:04:38,530 Daniel: I just accept that, I mean, I just can't afford to do that. 747 01:04:38,630 --> 01:04:47,270 Daniel: You know, at this stage in my life, I can't afford to like work 10 hours a day for even like for a short period of time, I might be able to do it for maybe a couple of days a weekend. 748 01:04:47,570 --> 01:04:52,510 Daniel: And I do that occasionally, when there's something important, but I can't do it for a very long time. 749 01:04:53,010 --> 01:04:57,430 Daniel: And then you know what, I mean, this is like, like, I think it's fine. 750 01:04:57,430 --> 01:05:12,070 Daniel: Because sometimes when I criticize, for example, YC or the VC world, people tell me, if everyone thinks like me, there will be no big innovations, or nobody would invent SpaceX or whatever. 751 01:05:12,310 --> 01:05:13,330 Daniel: But I disagree. 752 01:05:13,630 --> 01:05:24,750 Daniel: Basically, all I'm just saying is that maybe I shouldn't be running SpaceX or like, at 21 years old, maybe, you know, shouldn't be trying to build a rocket ship company, just leave it to Elon Musk. 753 01:05:24,750 --> 01:05:25,550 Daniel: I mean, it's fine. 754 01:05:25,770 --> 01:05:35,690 Daniel: Just how we leave, you know, professional sports to people who have like the right genes and the right fitness and skills and whatever. 755 01:05:36,510 --> 01:05:37,190 Daniel: I'm fine. 756 01:05:37,290 --> 01:05:44,110 Daniel: I mean, I'm fine to leave soccer to Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo and all the other amazing players. 757 01:05:44,410 --> 01:05:46,370 Daniel: And I play, you know, just with my kids. 758 01:05:46,370 --> 01:05:57,770 Daniel: You know, it was sort of, I don't think, this is I think a bit of Silicon Valley mentality, that it's almost like we're entitled, like some form of entitlement that we should be able to do anything. 759 01:05:58,310 --> 01:06:01,110 Daniel: But I mean, who said that, right? 760 01:06:01,710 --> 01:06:11,370 Daniel: I'm perfectly content with doing things that make sense within my context, within my means, within the amount of time that I have. 761 01:06:11,370 --> 01:06:13,390 Daniel: And this changes over time, as we're saying, right? 762 01:06:13,510 --> 01:06:24,270 Daniel: I mean, if you're younger, when you have kids, maybe if your kids have grown up, I mean, things change and your capacity to do things changes as well. 763 01:06:25,690 --> 01:06:31,850 Nesters: Yeah, I think Silicon Valley actually has more of an unhealthy way of approaching with that vision. 764 01:06:32,030 --> 01:06:35,690 Nesters: They're more like trying to force the vision on the market rather than... 765 01:06:35,690 --> 01:06:36,850 Daniel: Exactly, yeah. 766 01:06:37,050 --> 01:06:40,930 Nesters: Yeah, naturally, let it naturally develop based on real needs. 767 01:06:40,930 --> 01:06:50,270 Daniel: The perverse incentive there is that there's someone who's benefiting from the portfolio effect, which is the investor. 768 01:06:51,550 --> 01:07:00,590 Daniel: And they're trying to basically, again, I mean, to use maybe a harsh word, it's like exploits the individual founder to go deep into one thing, right? 769 01:07:00,590 --> 01:07:05,130 Daniel: Until they reach the bottom of whatever they're trying to reach, right? 770 01:07:05,210 --> 01:07:06,990 Daniel: But, you know, we like to say this, right? 771 01:07:07,010 --> 01:07:09,670 Daniel: And I think this is a proven concept. 772 01:07:10,050 --> 01:07:15,670 Daniel: What's good for the portfolio, like what's good for the group, for the collective is not necessarily good for the individuals, right? 773 01:07:15,670 --> 01:07:18,830 Daniel: I mean, it's perfectly consistent, right? 774 01:07:18,890 --> 01:07:33,170 Daniel: That the economy or Silicon Valley or the investor or the funds of an investor is benefiting while the individuals who make up that fund are struggling or like 99% are struggling and so on and so forth. 775 01:07:34,090 --> 01:07:39,510 Daniel: So I like to sort of playfully say, you know, we should act like VCs for our ideas, right? 776 01:07:39,530 --> 01:07:42,430 Daniel: And I know, of course, it's unrealistic to be exactly like a VC. 777 01:07:42,430 --> 01:07:48,550 Daniel: We're not going to start a thousand projects or, you know, have something, I mean, we can't scale ourselves that much. 778 01:07:48,770 --> 01:07:50,290 Daniel: We certainly have to be much more selective. 779 01:07:51,010 --> 01:08:03,750 Daniel: But I think a lot of the mindsets that VCs and book publishers and movie studios and Hollywood have in Taming Uncertainty, I think we should be applying some of those to us as well. 780 01:08:05,430 --> 01:08:20,470 Daniel: Which again, I think the pride thing is an important factor there, because I think the mistake when you're... I mean, I think there's a distinction between being proud of something and also treating it like a pet project, right? 781 01:08:20,470 --> 01:08:32,150 Daniel: I mean, I like the phrase, I borrowed it from the Kubernetes world, that is sort of the sort of DevOps world, there's the saying, treat your servers like cattle, not like pets. 782 01:08:32,370 --> 01:08:40,950 Daniel: So it's sort of like, you know, hardware should be easily replaceable if it sort of breaks down, just spin up a new server, and there shouldn't be any disruption. 783 01:08:41,390 --> 01:08:45,170 Daniel: And I really like the saying, when it applies to business as well. 784 01:08:45,290 --> 01:08:48,630 Daniel: And this doesn't mean that you're not proud of your projects. 785 01:08:48,630 --> 01:08:56,950 Daniel: I think what this means is that, you know, when something doesn't work in the market, you shouldn't necessarily take it personally, right? 786 01:08:57,010 --> 01:09:02,390 Daniel: I mean, you shouldn't fall in love with the idea that this is going to work. 787 01:09:02,390 --> 01:09:10,990 Daniel: Because I think if you teach something like a pet, you start making rational decisions, like with pets, for example, and this is why I think this metaphor really works. 788 01:09:11,470 --> 01:09:18,950 Daniel: With pets, we don't make cost benefit analysis, like I mean, if they're sick, we treat them as part of our family, right? 789 01:09:18,970 --> 01:09:24,570 Daniel: And we'll go to the vet, and you know, whatever it costs to make them feel better or heal them, we'll pay for it. 790 01:09:24,570 --> 01:09:30,170 Daniel: But a farmer doesn't think about their animals on the farm the same way, right? 791 01:09:30,190 --> 01:09:33,890 Daniel: I mean, they're just units, and they're like part of the product, right? 792 01:09:33,890 --> 01:09:40,650 Daniel: And if it doesn't make sense to feed the cattle, unfortunately, you know, they get sent to the slaughterhouse. 793 01:09:40,770 --> 01:09:41,610 Daniel: I know it sounds brutal. 794 01:09:42,970 --> 01:09:49,290 Daniel: But unfortunately, we're dealing with the reality of we're trying to make money in the real world on the market. 795 01:09:49,930 --> 01:09:57,710 Daniel: We have to deal with, you know, we have to take a similar attitude, which I also, I think, it's a very similar attitude in finance. 796 01:09:57,970 --> 01:10:00,910 Daniel: I mean, there's a similar saying, it's like to not fall in love with your positions. 797 01:10:01,330 --> 01:10:10,030 Daniel: If, again, like we see this oftentimes with investment, like people fall in love with Tesla or Apple or sort of these big, fancy, exciting brands. 798 01:10:10,330 --> 01:10:12,190 Daniel: But it's not a very rational way. 799 01:10:12,610 --> 01:10:15,590 Daniel: It's not like the way Warren Buffett, for example, invests, right? 800 01:10:15,630 --> 01:10:20,410 Daniel: I mean, it's much more based on fundamentals and other sorts of things. 801 01:10:21,790 --> 01:10:30,910 Nesters: Speaking of the pets and the cattle and the pets, we need to actually bring Daigo back in the conversation. 802 01:10:31,610 --> 01:10:35,010 Nesters: And I have a couple points specifically on this. 803 01:10:35,090 --> 01:10:43,810 Nesters: One is, I know I saw a tweet, I think it's a pinned tweet by Daigo is about the five months of runway that you gained by selling your car. 804 01:10:44,130 --> 01:10:46,270 Nesters: So I think you're down to three months now, right? 805 01:10:46,450 --> 01:10:47,190 Nesters: Am I correct? 806 01:10:48,010 --> 01:10:48,690 Dagobert: Yeah, that's it. 807 01:10:49,930 --> 01:11:01,150 Nesters: So, because you want to bring your vision to the world, like, how do you actually deal with that part where you do have a technically a deadline of your runway running out? 808 01:11:01,250 --> 01:11:08,570 Nesters: So can you stay 100 focused on your vision by having deadline where your car is already gone? 809 01:11:08,610 --> 01:11:09,810 Nesters: I don't know what you're selling next. 810 01:11:09,950 --> 01:11:12,550 Nesters: But, you know, like, there's three months left. 811 01:11:14,070 --> 01:11:15,930 Daniel: He still has two kids in his, I think, right? 812 01:11:15,970 --> 01:11:17,110 Daniel: So he'll find a way. 813 01:11:17,110 --> 01:11:22,770 Nesters: I mean, yeah, I mean, if you talk about the black market, yeah, I mean, you can do a lot of things these days, obviously. 814 01:11:23,850 --> 01:11:25,110 Nesters: OnlyFans is an option as well. 815 01:11:25,390 --> 01:11:30,830 Nesters: But again, you obviously don't want to do OnlyFans because you want to bring your vision to the world. 816 01:11:30,950 --> 01:11:33,350 Nesters: So you're constrained by what you can do in a way. 817 01:11:33,350 --> 01:11:35,090 Nesters: How do you deal with that? 818 01:11:36,070 --> 01:11:39,690 Dagobert: You have no idea how I can show up on OnlyFans with my vision. 819 01:11:39,850 --> 01:11:40,410 Dagobert: No, anyway. 820 01:11:41,210 --> 01:11:43,470 Dagobert: I'm just kidding. 821 01:11:43,930 --> 01:11:48,090 Dagobert: I don't know what vision you're talking about. 822 01:11:48,090 --> 01:11:50,430 Dagobert: Just trolling. 823 01:11:52,230 --> 01:11:55,230 Dagobert: Yeah, it does stress me out. 824 01:11:55,410 --> 01:12:01,390 Dagobert: But you know, it's funny, I was thinking about it when you were talking about having kids. 825 01:12:02,990 --> 01:12:04,130 Dagobert: And I think, 826 01:12:07,430 --> 01:12:10,290 Dagobert: and it ties up to what I was saying earlier. 827 01:12:11,830 --> 01:12:22,030 Dagobert: I'm like, I'm a romantic in terms of not, I don't mean in terms of relationships, even though I am, but I mean, in terms of my life, I need a quest. 828 01:12:22,510 --> 01:12:28,390 Dagobert: I need, you know, and so when I talk about vision, it's also like, I need an adventure. 829 01:12:28,610 --> 01:12:31,030 Dagobert: I need like some shit like this. 830 01:12:31,030 --> 01:12:32,350 Dagobert: Else I'm so bored. 831 01:12:32,710 --> 01:12:41,070 Dagobert: And I think that's the main reason I did this is, you know, you said constraint, you know, breeds creativity and makes you move forward. 832 01:12:42,230 --> 01:12:45,410 Dagobert: And yeah, so obviously, I'm still not shipping. 833 01:12:45,890 --> 01:12:48,590 Dagobert: But this constraint, believe it or not, is helping me. 834 01:12:48,590 --> 01:12:54,950 Dagobert: This constraint of, you know, knowing that the road ends soon. 835 01:12:56,410 --> 01:13:03,410 Dagobert: And yeah, it was really actually an interesting time for me to realize what I really wanted. 836 01:13:04,070 --> 01:13:06,270 Dagobert: And I don't know. 837 01:13:06,410 --> 01:13:10,330 Dagobert: Yeah, I think I want to, to have to have fun. 838 01:13:10,410 --> 01:13:11,250 Dagobert: I want to have fun. 839 01:13:11,370 --> 01:13:13,130 Dagobert: And the risk is part of the fun. 840 01:13:14,030 --> 01:13:15,450 Dagobert: I know it's a lot of risk. 841 01:13:15,910 --> 01:13:24,130 Dagobert: I'm probably also a bit addicted to risk because I've had some quite challenging times in my life, even in childhood and shit. 842 01:13:24,330 --> 01:13:30,030 Dagobert: And so it made me kind of like an addictive personality, you know, for sure. 843 01:13:30,930 --> 01:13:36,230 Dagobert: And so having high emotions is part of what I need, I think. 844 01:13:37,250 --> 01:13:40,650 Dagobert: So that's why I have very little runway right now. 845 01:13:41,690 --> 01:13:49,170 Dagobert: And it kind of like, you know, turns me on, like not, not sexually, but I mean, it's like, I'm sorry. 846 01:13:49,730 --> 01:13:52,030 Dagobert: I was thinking of one more sentence at the same time. 847 01:13:52,090 --> 01:13:53,470 Dagobert: I'm like, okay, I'm just gonna say that. 848 01:13:53,910 --> 01:13:56,170 Dagobert: But you know, it's kind of like, it helps my engine. 849 01:13:57,210 --> 01:14:02,390 Dagobert: So yeah, I'm actually shitting myself a few sometimes, you know, sometimes I'm like, holy shit, what am I doing? 850 01:14:02,990 --> 01:14:05,050 Dagobert: When I look at reality, I'm like, fuck. 851 01:14:06,230 --> 01:14:09,590 Dagobert: And at the same time, you know, that makes me get up in the morning. 852 01:14:11,910 --> 01:14:16,290 Dagobert: And yeah, so yeah, but like, yeah, it's like, I need a quest. 853 01:14:16,410 --> 01:14:17,330 Dagobert: I need to have fun. 854 01:14:17,450 --> 01:14:22,870 Dagobert: And yeah, what I was wanting to say about kids is that I think kids give you that. 855 01:14:23,070 --> 01:14:30,950 Dagobert: If you have kids, you have to, you know, and I guess automatically you start thinking, shit, I need to do things for them. 856 01:14:31,010 --> 01:14:35,550 Dagobert: And I guess maybe because I'm getting older, like, I turned 36 recently. 857 01:14:36,370 --> 01:14:39,990 Dagobert: And I think since I still don't have kids, I don't have these things. 858 01:14:40,930 --> 01:14:42,930 Dagobert: I'm like, I'm looking for something. 859 01:14:43,170 --> 01:14:44,370 Dagobert: I need something. 860 01:14:44,430 --> 01:14:48,470 Dagobert: I need something to challenge me, you know, because if I don't have challenge, I'm so bored. 861 01:14:48,810 --> 01:14:50,950 Dagobert: So I'm challenging myself like this. 862 01:14:51,190 --> 01:14:57,350 Dagobert: Like, I'm gonna just do my vision, even if I risk everything, at least it's pushing me because I think I need it. 863 01:14:57,390 --> 01:15:00,650 Dagobert: So maybe a healthier way would be to just have kids. 864 01:15:02,810 --> 01:15:03,930 Dagobert: But I don't know. 865 01:15:04,110 --> 01:15:07,990 Dagobert: I think that's what's happening, you know, and that's how I'm pushing myself. 866 01:15:08,830 --> 01:15:11,150 Dagobert: Because I need it. 867 01:15:11,210 --> 01:15:11,770 Dagobert: I just need it. 868 01:15:11,830 --> 01:15:15,050 Dagobert: Maybe it's this stage of my life where I need something like that. 869 01:15:15,310 --> 01:15:16,610 Dagobert: That's how I interpret it at least. 870 01:15:17,310 --> 01:15:23,690 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I do have the same problems as you do in many ways. 871 01:15:23,930 --> 01:15:26,370 Nesters: I have the same mindset. 872 01:15:27,190 --> 01:15:41,770 Nesters: I know that there's even Prince who wants to ask a question about audience growth that he brought up yesterday, I think, in your comments about the struggling artist, you know, the archetype, that some women are attracted to that. 873 01:15:41,770 --> 01:15:44,490 Nesters: I'm the perfect one, yeah. 874 01:16:11,770 --> 01:16:16,610 Nesters: My constraints are so big on work that I actually just don't ship stuff partially because of that. 875 01:16:16,650 --> 01:16:21,070 Nesters: I just do whatever I want, otherwise, aside from work. 876 01:16:22,830 --> 01:16:28,850 Nesters: But I am actually that way, running out of savings slowly, for example. 877 01:16:28,850 --> 01:16:34,470 Nesters: And that is maybe, there is a stressor actually need to potentially eventually ship, obviously, as well. 878 01:16:34,750 --> 01:16:47,770 Nesters: But that risk factor does give you like a little bit more, I don't know, keeping you feel more alive, sometimes actually think about opportunities you could follow, even if I don't ship, I'm still thinking about them, because I know that like, eventually, 879 01:16:47,770 --> 01:16:49,350 Nesters: I do need to ship something. 880 01:16:49,350 --> 01:16:58,410 Nesters: And, yeah, that's basically, that way, I also feel that need for a little bit of that adventure and risk. 881 01:16:58,530 --> 01:17:03,130 Nesters: And I know, I, because I've also played some, a lot of video games when I was a kid, etc. 882 01:17:03,210 --> 01:17:06,950 Nesters: I've also played like those competitive video games where you have a ladder and stuff. 883 01:17:07,010 --> 01:17:10,530 Nesters: I also know that I need sometimes that taste of adrenaline, etc. 884 01:17:10,530 --> 01:17:10,970 Nesters: as well. 885 01:17:10,970 --> 01:17:15,710 Nesters: And I maybe sometimes don't want to risk with my life and do the crazy stuff in real life, right. 886 01:17:15,830 --> 01:17:19,070 Nesters: But I mean, I do like mountain biking, which is technically pretty risky. 887 01:17:19,670 --> 01:17:25,650 Nesters: If you do like, if you do like a good downhill track, obviously, it's very risky. 888 01:17:25,830 --> 01:17:30,230 Nesters: But I do try to avoid too much of that risk. 889 01:17:30,330 --> 01:17:39,150 Nesters: But for example, I would get some adrenaline, I would be playing like online video games, I can acknowledge that risk, I enjoy as well. 890 01:17:39,150 --> 01:17:41,590 Nesters: And I'm similar in your way. 891 01:17:41,750 --> 01:17:46,870 Nesters: I'm actually, I'm actually, in some regards, running out of slowly running out of money. 892 01:17:46,970 --> 01:17:53,530 Nesters: I have a runway for a long while in terms of how, because I do client work as well, partially. 893 01:17:53,810 --> 01:18:02,130 Nesters: So that's actually how I'm like, keeping it, keeping it somewhat manageable in that regards, which you're obviously not doing, because you're only focusing on your vision. 894 01:18:02,130 --> 01:18:17,550 Nesters: Which was the other thing I wanted to ask about this, because you're running out of runway, do you ever consider that you could still follow your vision, but for example, you could be consulting other projects and helping them, for example, grow the same way you want to do with launch day. 895 01:18:18,270 --> 01:18:31,830 Nesters: But on like individual basis, you would actually feel like, okay, this is something you also consider that, like, these people share the type of vision you have, and you see that they maybe only like the marketing part of it, that you could help it. 896 01:18:31,830 --> 01:18:44,370 Nesters: Do you ever see yourself doing that to both also help with your downside risk, you know, they're running out of runway, but also actually helping someone deliver on their, their passion and vision? 897 01:18:46,210 --> 01:18:52,590 Dagobert: Yeah, I really like every time I've helped someone like this, I really enjoyed it. 898 01:18:52,850 --> 01:19:04,150 Dagobert: And I really felt, you know, that, wow, it's more enjoyable than just like being in my cave and working on my vision, at least I felt useful, like in a direct way. 899 01:19:04,250 --> 01:19:04,930 Dagobert: And that was cool. 900 01:19:06,010 --> 01:19:13,370 Dagobert: I think it's just, I don't know, maybe it's my style of focusing, but I'm so bad at multitasking. 901 01:19:14,170 --> 01:19:18,830 Dagobert: I'm like, I tried many times to have a job or have something and work on the side. 902 01:19:19,950 --> 01:19:23,690 Dagobert: And I like, I never could manage to do that. 903 01:19:23,950 --> 01:19:33,850 Dagobert: And so as long, as soon as I'm going to have an easier way to make money, I will chase this, because it will be more safe. 904 01:19:33,850 --> 01:19:46,310 Dagobert: And I'm kind of like, by doing what I'm doing now, I mean, because like, between when I was 20 and 28, so before I launched my first startup, I had dozens of ideas. 905 01:19:46,510 --> 01:19:49,070 Dagobert: I have a Dropbox, because yes, I still use Dropbox. 906 01:19:49,190 --> 01:19:58,550 Dagobert: I'm probably the only guy, but like, I have a Dropbox folder of like, all of my project ideas from over 10 years. 907 01:19:58,550 --> 01:20:07,650 Dagobert: So many things, and I never launched anything, because of no pressure, or, you know, wanting to focus on the short term, more efficient thing. 908 01:20:08,270 --> 01:20:24,030 Dagobert: And so since it's what I want to do, it's very hard for me to think of a plan B or consulting, because I know, as soon as I do that, you know, as soon as it takes me a few days in my week or something, like I tried, I had a job, you know, after my burnout, 909 01:20:24,050 --> 01:20:27,670 Dagobert: I took a job for eight months in a really cool startup in France, in Paris. 910 01:20:28,550 --> 01:20:31,110 Dagobert: Really cool team, and they were so nice with me. 911 01:20:31,910 --> 01:20:37,950 Dagobert: And I was, you know, doing the vision for their product and their marketing, which was perfect for me. 912 01:20:38,930 --> 01:20:47,230 Dagobert: And, but like, even when I optimize my time and everything, I had zero energy after that to work on my own things. 913 01:20:47,230 --> 01:20:53,170 Dagobert: Also, because I think when I work for somebody else, I give everything, because it's not fun for me. 914 01:20:53,270 --> 01:20:59,170 Dagobert: If I don't do that, I have to invest myself, else it's not fun, it's not interesting, it's boring. 915 01:21:00,130 --> 01:21:05,370 Dagobert: So because of that, I guess it just occupies my mind, even beyond the work, beyond everything. 916 01:21:05,590 --> 01:21:12,430 Dagobert: And so switching my brain to my own project, I never managed to do it in any significant way. 917 01:21:12,430 --> 01:21:16,350 Dagobert: It's already hard enough with nothing else on my plate. 918 01:21:17,210 --> 01:21:20,690 Dagobert: So yeah, so that's the main reason why I'm not considering it. 919 01:21:20,890 --> 01:21:32,310 Dagobert: Now, of course, when the alarm bells of, you know, really not having any money left, ring louder, well, you know, this urgency will make me act for sure. 920 01:21:32,310 --> 01:21:37,390 Dagobert: But yeah, for now, I don't even think about it, to be honest. 921 01:21:38,530 --> 01:21:44,630 Dagobert: And maybe because I was a freelance for so long, I know that I can bounce back quite quickly. 922 01:21:45,310 --> 01:21:47,270 Dagobert: So it's weirdly not scary. 923 01:21:48,090 --> 01:21:50,570 Dagobert: I'm even confused sometimes. 924 01:21:50,690 --> 01:21:53,330 Dagobert: I'm thinking, am I in denial or am I confident? 925 01:21:53,830 --> 01:21:55,130 Dagobert: I'm literally not sure. 926 01:21:55,670 --> 01:21:58,190 Dagobert: Because I'm literally wondering. 927 01:21:58,970 --> 01:22:01,110 Nesters: I actually feel the same, by the way. 928 01:22:01,250 --> 01:22:02,810 Nesters: I actually right now I feel the same. 929 01:22:03,090 --> 01:22:04,750 Nesters: Because there's the AI and etc. 930 01:22:04,910 --> 01:22:07,410 Nesters: and everything like, oh, no, they're gonna take all the jobs away. 931 01:22:07,570 --> 01:22:11,690 Nesters: And I'm just sitting here like working, I don't know, like 10-15 hours a week maximum. 932 01:22:11,870 --> 01:22:16,090 Nesters: I'm just sitting and like, I'm thinking like, so the AI is taking over, right? 933 01:22:16,130 --> 01:22:16,930 Nesters: And I'm not working. 934 01:22:18,230 --> 01:22:21,130 Nesters: Am I just like being stupid for not working? 935 01:22:21,530 --> 01:22:24,250 Nesters: Or am I just like, or am I just like, too confident? 936 01:22:24,530 --> 01:22:32,790 Nesters: Am I enough confident that I'm also researching some subjects on the side and I am actually involved in, I've been involved in small bus community a lot. 937 01:22:32,910 --> 01:22:37,070 Nesters: So I see what other people are talking about the subject, I am involved with some client work. 938 01:22:37,070 --> 01:22:40,670 Nesters: So I know what they're going through on different subjects. 939 01:22:40,670 --> 01:22:42,590 Nesters: Like, so I know what's happening. 940 01:22:43,130 --> 01:22:47,590 Nesters: And I kind of see from the side some opportunities as well, but I'm not engaging with them necessarily. 941 01:22:48,190 --> 01:22:52,050 Nesters: So I'm thinking, am I being stupid, because I'm just gonna get wiped out eventually? 942 01:22:52,530 --> 01:23:00,570 Nesters: Or is it even smart maybe to wait and just be like, okay, AI gets good enough that I can just like, launch whatever I want so easily that it doesn't matter at all. 943 01:23:02,550 --> 01:23:04,450 Dagobert: Yeah, yeah, to be honest, I don't know either. 944 01:23:04,650 --> 01:23:11,190 Dagobert: I guess in a few months, I'll be in a better position to answer you, to tell you, you know, because I'm running out faster than you. 945 01:23:11,290 --> 01:23:12,890 Dagobert: So I'll be able to give you a heads up. 946 01:23:13,070 --> 01:23:13,390 Dagobert: We'll see. 947 01:23:14,790 --> 01:23:21,170 Nesters: Your benefit is you have the audience, though, like your benefit is you have the huge audience, which you'd be like, audience matters doesn't matter. 948 01:23:21,390 --> 01:23:26,990 Nesters: Actually, that's, I believe, the part of the question Prince will bring up because he wants, I think he wants to ask about the growth on X. 949 01:23:27,590 --> 01:23:30,490 Dagobert: Prince should really speak because it's been one hour with his hands. 950 01:23:30,650 --> 01:23:31,270 Nesters: Yeah, I know. 951 01:23:31,970 --> 01:23:35,350 Nesters: I'm punishing him for a lot of spam. 952 01:23:35,350 --> 01:23:37,830 Prince: I have no idea why I did tenesters today. 953 01:23:38,210 --> 01:23:40,150 Prince: But yeah, okay, we're gonna talk about that, mate. 954 01:23:41,130 --> 01:23:46,390 Prince: I actually won't ask about the X growth, because it's kind of off topic here. 955 01:23:47,190 --> 01:23:56,450 Prince: And by the way, Dago, I know a lot of people on X and everywhere saying you're, you know, you're just a big procrastinator. 956 01:23:56,450 --> 01:23:58,790 Prince: And it kind of does seem like that from the outside. 957 01:23:58,930 --> 01:24:08,750 Prince: But listening to you talk today, especially at the beginning, I do get it, what you're saying about doing something more than just shipping something that can make you some money. 958 01:24:09,290 --> 01:24:11,270 Prince: And probably people will still laugh at that. 959 01:24:11,390 --> 01:24:14,090 Prince: But I actually thought you're quite genuine with that. 960 01:24:14,210 --> 01:24:15,550 Prince: So thanks for saying that. 961 01:24:16,290 --> 01:24:23,210 Prince: Also, thanks for, you know, liking that comment I made about you being a struggling artist and some romantic girls liking that. 962 01:24:24,030 --> 01:24:26,010 Prince: Good to see you have a sense of humor. 963 01:24:26,770 --> 01:24:42,950 Prince: But I wanted to ask you why you're kind of going against the established best practices and the like the common knowledge of, you know, the more you ship and the more you iterate and get feedback, you can create a better thing. 964 01:24:42,950 --> 01:24:45,350 Prince: It's a very famous story, right? 965 01:24:45,490 --> 01:24:52,310 Prince: You know, like the guy who makes 100 YouTubes in 100 days, as opposed to one who tries to make the one best video in 100 days. 966 01:24:52,790 --> 01:25:01,550 Prince: And it comes from that old story about the, you know, the two groups of students making those, like a vase or something and in a pottery class. 967 01:25:01,790 --> 01:25:04,470 Prince: And, you know, you know about this, you know it better than me. 968 01:25:04,470 --> 01:25:19,150 Prince: So how is it that knowing that and having heard all these stories about how iteration and feedback is important, you've still decided to kind of carry on this perfectionist route? 969 01:25:19,410 --> 01:25:25,250 Prince: Like, yeah, what has made you do that and not carry on with the common knowledge? 970 01:25:27,710 --> 01:25:32,330 Dagobert: Yeah, it's because I think there's something missing from that common knowledge. 971 01:25:33,370 --> 01:25:36,290 Dagobert: Probably my ego thinking I know better than common knowledge. 972 01:25:37,890 --> 01:25:51,350 Dagobert: But I think, like, to give you an example, when I did my Twitter course, I didn't ask anybody for feedback. 973 01:25:51,710 --> 01:25:53,330 Dagobert: I spent five months doing this. 974 01:25:53,970 --> 01:25:55,150 Dagobert: I love doing it. 975 01:25:55,230 --> 01:25:59,290 Dagobert: I learned so much, actually, about video and everything to try to do a really cool product. 976 01:25:59,870 --> 01:26:09,750 Dagobert: I just asked a little bit of feedback at the end, when I had my vision, and I asked a few people who were super interested, and they helped me kind of like get the last 10% that I was missing. 977 01:26:09,750 --> 01:26:14,110 Dagobert: They helped me get that to make it kind of, quote unquote, perfect. 978 01:26:16,270 --> 01:26:19,110 Dagobert: And that was successful. 979 01:26:19,410 --> 01:26:26,610 Dagobert: And the reason was that for months, I was embedded into the problem. 980 01:26:26,750 --> 01:26:33,130 Dagobert: I was embedded into the pain of growing on Twitter, not succeeding. 981 01:26:33,130 --> 01:26:41,170 Dagobert: I also started before doing my course, asking questions to people about exactly what their pain pinpointing their pain very precisely. 982 01:26:42,650 --> 01:26:45,510 Dagobert: And I actually started by writing the landing page. 983 01:26:46,330 --> 01:27:01,030 Dagobert: And I wrote the landing page like seven times before I started recording my course, because I wanted to be able to sell it and then eventually, and I didn't launch the landing page, I just wanted to have a story that I could sell. 984 01:27:01,030 --> 01:27:07,770 Dagobert: And my story became about how it's not you, it's the algorithm. 985 01:27:08,250 --> 01:27:12,830 Dagobert: Well, quite an easy, potentially sleazy story, but it was true, actually. 986 01:27:13,170 --> 01:27:14,950 Dagobert: So I could deliver. 987 01:27:15,230 --> 01:27:18,170 Dagobert: So I was confident to go with that story. 988 01:27:18,810 --> 01:27:32,970 Dagobert: Anyway, my point is, with launch day, with my current product, this pain of being an indie maker, launching a product and having no feedback, no traffic, no sales. 989 01:27:33,850 --> 01:27:35,850 Dagobert: Man, I've been swimming in this pain for years. 990 01:27:36,190 --> 01:27:39,170 Dagobert: This pain of going on product hunt and nobody sees you. 991 01:27:40,390 --> 01:27:42,390 Dagobert: I mean, I'm even tired of this shit. 992 01:27:42,390 --> 01:27:44,170 Dagobert: Like I've been seeing it for so long. 993 01:27:44,290 --> 01:27:45,010 Dagobert: I'm used to it. 994 01:27:45,110 --> 01:27:45,750 Dagobert: I know it. 995 01:27:45,850 --> 01:27:46,510 Dagobert: I get it. 996 01:27:47,690 --> 01:27:53,970 Dagobert: So for now, for me, the point isn't about what more can I learn? 997 01:27:54,190 --> 01:27:55,010 Dagobert: I know enough. 998 01:27:55,130 --> 01:28:02,450 Dagobert: I don't know everything, but I know enough that I know what I'm going to launch, or at least I'm confident because I can be wrong. 999 01:28:02,450 --> 01:28:09,890 Dagobert: But I'm confident what I'm going to launch is at least an interesting answer to that. 1000 01:28:10,130 --> 01:28:12,350 Dagobert: And for sure, I can launch and realize it's not. 1001 01:28:12,570 --> 01:28:17,530 Dagobert: I'm asking for feedback to a few people, just a very few people, because I don't want to get distracted. 1002 01:28:17,790 --> 01:28:23,410 Dagobert: But I just want to make sure to avoid the big, maybe some big tree I missed, some big thing I missed. 1003 01:28:23,530 --> 01:28:25,290 Dagobert: It's always possible to have tunnel vision. 1004 01:28:26,750 --> 01:28:31,570 Dagobert: But yeah, I think it's common knowledge and it's true. 1005 01:28:31,830 --> 01:28:42,150 Dagobert: But I feel like basically when you spend a long enough time and like being curious, having empathy, relating to people, eventually you can get it. 1006 01:28:42,410 --> 01:28:46,650 Dagobert: And once you get it, like you can just like, okay, now you can do something about it. 1007 01:28:46,830 --> 01:28:50,410 Dagobert: It's not just like, I get the problem of product hunt. 1008 01:28:50,610 --> 01:28:51,950 Dagobert: I really think I do. 1009 01:28:51,950 --> 01:28:55,930 Dagobert: And so now it's about, okay, how can I solve it? 1010 01:28:56,050 --> 01:29:04,630 Dagobert: It's not just about, because when you look at it, everybody who launched their competitors, they just basically did kind of like the same thing. 1011 01:29:04,970 --> 01:29:10,750 Dagobert: So you have a vote, you have a list of products, you know, and there was a slight differences. 1012 01:29:11,430 --> 01:29:15,130 Dagobert: And I think it's because they didn't take the time to really think about it. 1013 01:29:15,390 --> 01:29:17,010 Dagobert: And they were just trying to iterate. 1014 01:29:17,630 --> 01:29:25,810 Dagobert: And also, especially with this product, I think, since it's about a product that is supposed to be kind of viral, like you have all this thing. 1015 01:29:26,610 --> 01:29:27,490 Dagobert: Maybe I'm wrong. 1016 01:29:27,650 --> 01:29:32,530 Dagobert: I think I have a bit less opportunity to be wrong about iterating and failing. 1017 01:29:32,950 --> 01:29:40,150 Dagobert: Because I think like it's a product where it's important to make kind of like a big splash because it's all about getting traffic. 1018 01:29:40,790 --> 01:29:46,390 Dagobert: So it's true that it's making me a bit, maybe worry about this bit, which you wouldn't have with another product. 1019 01:29:46,390 --> 01:29:50,350 Dagobert: But I guess maybe I could do that with every product and just be rationalizing. 1020 01:29:50,670 --> 01:29:51,690 Dagobert: It's very possible to. 1021 01:29:52,130 --> 01:30:04,430 Dagobert: But yeah, my point is, eventually, when you really understand a problem, then it's valuable to take a step back and figure out something interesting, an interesting angle about it. 1022 01:30:05,970 --> 01:30:09,910 Dagobert: And so I think that's what's missing from this common knowledge sometimes. 1023 01:30:10,810 --> 01:30:19,130 Nesters: By the way, in this whole conversation, also the way you even... someone was saying something? 1024 01:30:21,110 --> 01:30:23,490 Prince: I just said thanks to his answer. 1025 01:30:23,490 --> 01:30:23,910 Nesters: Yes. 1026 01:30:24,470 --> 01:30:25,090 Nesters: Yeah. 1027 01:30:25,570 --> 01:30:28,430 Nesters: I wanted... yeah, thanks for asking, actually. 1028 01:30:28,490 --> 01:30:33,470 Nesters: Good question, by the way, because I completely agree with the way Daigo started in the beginning. 1029 01:30:35,370 --> 01:30:42,370 Nesters: The way he spoke beginning about also being vulnerable about how he approaches and I even agree with that vision. 1030 01:30:42,370 --> 01:31:03,690 Nesters: So when I'm thinking about that, I'm also like, the way you, for example, introduced yourself to this space was you want to debate, for example, Daniel about real entrepreneurship and a little bit of that trolling, I think, kind of undermines the way you actually spoke about your vision in the beginning of the space. 1031 01:31:03,690 --> 01:31:09,450 Nesters: I know you do it for the marketing, and we can discuss about the audience growth and growing on X. 1032 01:31:09,770 --> 01:31:14,630 Nesters: And obviously, your course is also a good example of everything. 1033 01:31:14,950 --> 01:31:23,190 Nesters: But in a way, I feel like that undermines a little bit of that conversation that you just had in the beginning, that vulnerable part of your vision. 1034 01:31:23,190 --> 01:31:32,970 Nesters: Because I feel like some people just miss it as you're trolling or yap now, when you actually put those posts out, like you are speaking to an audience that gets it, perhaps. 1035 01:31:33,790 --> 01:31:44,310 Nesters: But the other people might actually, because they're majority of the niche, let's say, they kind of swamp your posts with the other stuff. 1036 01:31:44,310 --> 01:31:53,670 Nesters: So your vision kind of becomes a little bit, I guess, warped in the general consensus, what people think about it. 1037 01:31:54,030 --> 01:31:57,830 Nesters: So people just think you're just another yapper, etc. 1038 01:31:57,970 --> 01:32:02,150 Nesters: Instead of actually hearing you, for example, speak about this vision, etc. 1039 01:32:02,330 --> 01:32:04,410 Nesters: I don't know how you look at it. 1040 01:32:04,530 --> 01:32:08,470 Nesters: That's how I see it from the guidelines right now. 1041 01:32:08,470 --> 01:32:14,270 Nesters: I kind of feel like what we heard in the beginning of this speech is not something we normally hear from you. 1042 01:32:14,410 --> 01:32:17,350 Nesters: Like, at least, even if you express it, we don't feel it. 1043 01:32:20,630 --> 01:32:27,570 Dagobert: Yeah, so it takes a long time to express these thoughts properly on Twitter. 1044 01:32:27,850 --> 01:32:28,630 Dagobert: It's so long. 1045 01:32:29,090 --> 01:32:42,970 Dagobert: And it's been laziness, to be honest, because I've written some very deep posts in the past about my burnout, about my divorce also, because it led to divorce with my wife and ex-co-founder. 1046 01:32:43,510 --> 01:32:52,370 Dagobert: And like, I love actually to make these very vulnerable posts because they can be so, I know they can be very, very helpful. 1047 01:32:52,510 --> 01:32:55,510 Dagobert: It's just like also sometimes I'm kind of like, I like joking. 1048 01:32:56,090 --> 01:32:57,950 Dagobert: I'm like witty kind of guy. 1049 01:32:58,010 --> 01:33:00,670 Dagobert: I like to make jokes, make puns and everything. 1050 01:33:02,510 --> 01:33:06,950 Dagobert: And I, believe it or not, I was focused on shipping. 1051 01:33:07,150 --> 01:33:08,930 Dagobert: I was not trying to open Twitter this week. 1052 01:33:09,550 --> 01:33:11,930 Dagobert: And I started opening it yesterday. 1053 01:33:12,270 --> 01:33:13,470 Dagobert: It fucked up my day, man. 1054 01:33:13,530 --> 01:33:14,050 Dagobert: I hated it. 1055 01:33:14,610 --> 01:33:18,630 Dagobert: But I was like, okay, I need to try to get people excited about this space. 1056 01:33:18,630 --> 01:33:25,610 Dagobert: So I thought this witty thing to say, believe it or not, it took me fucking two hours to find this witty thing to say. 1057 01:33:25,750 --> 01:33:32,430 Dagobert: I have to like, others were way more brutal, way less, even worse in terms of like, not showing my vision. 1058 01:33:33,070 --> 01:33:47,090 Dagobert: But I was working at the same time, thinking of this tweet in the background, and trying to find a way that was that it wouldn't take me one day to make a long, insightful post, but it could, you know, it could be still, you know, useful. 1059 01:33:47,090 --> 01:34:00,850 Dagobert: So yeah, I think, but I think, you know, what it comes down to, and actually something that's highly motivating to me, is people thinking I'm less than I am. 1060 01:34:01,130 --> 01:34:02,350 Dagobert: That's actually cool for me. 1061 01:34:02,470 --> 01:34:03,310 Dagobert: That's good for me. 1062 01:34:03,530 --> 01:34:04,830 Dagobert: Because it motivates me. 1063 01:34:04,850 --> 01:34:12,390 Dagobert: Because I think, you know, in the end, if I launch a cool product, it's going to be, that's the only thing that really matters. 1064 01:34:12,390 --> 01:34:18,610 Dagobert: It's not the only thing, but it's a big way to shut up the haters, is to launch something really cool. 1065 01:34:19,370 --> 01:34:21,010 Dagobert: And that's highly motivating to me. 1066 01:34:21,890 --> 01:34:35,050 Dagobert: It's a bit pressuring, but it's mostly motivating, like, okay, I need to launch, because I'm tired of having to justify myself for some idiot who doesn't read anything I say, and who just judged me based on one tweet. 1067 01:34:35,050 --> 01:34:38,130 Dagobert: And I say idiot, because, you know, I like to be trolling. 1068 01:34:38,350 --> 01:34:41,730 Dagobert: Of course, I judge people on one tweet also sometimes, you know, I'm not saying. 1069 01:34:42,130 --> 01:34:42,990 Dagobert: We all do that. 1070 01:34:43,070 --> 01:34:49,030 Dagobert: That's sadly the nature of social media and this forever feed that's always updating. 1071 01:34:49,970 --> 01:34:53,330 Dagobert: But yeah, the way I see it is actually, it's quite motivating. 1072 01:34:53,330 --> 01:35:00,010 Dagobert: So I've actually leaned into this past few weeks, not shipping, at least in the way I talk on Twitter. 1073 01:35:00,130 --> 01:35:08,690 Dagobert: When I come on Twitter occasionally, like less, way less than before, I don't mind leaning into, yeah, I'm not shipping. 1074 01:35:08,890 --> 01:35:09,850 Dagobert: Here's why I didn't ship. 1075 01:35:09,970 --> 01:35:17,350 Dagobert: Like, I made a tweet a few days ago where I said I didn't ship because I thought I would switch my framework at the last minute. 1076 01:35:17,350 --> 01:35:18,530 Dagobert: So it took me three weeks. 1077 01:35:19,030 --> 01:35:22,710 Dagobert: And I know people are gonna shit on me for that or make fun of me for that. 1078 01:35:22,970 --> 01:35:24,410 Dagobert: But at the same time, that was true. 1079 01:35:24,530 --> 01:35:25,390 Dagobert: That was the real thing. 1080 01:35:25,790 --> 01:35:27,450 Dagobert: I'm not proud of it, but that was true. 1081 01:35:28,350 --> 01:35:33,870 Dagobert: And so that kind of like motivates me to not prove people wrong. 1082 01:35:33,870 --> 01:35:36,150 Dagobert: But yes, a little bit. 1083 01:35:36,210 --> 01:35:42,790 Dagobert: It's more like proof to myself that I'm not crazy, you know, that I'm not gonna just like that. 1084 01:35:43,590 --> 01:35:49,750 Dagobert: That all these things we talked about today, they can lead to something. 1085 01:35:49,950 --> 01:35:52,150 Dagobert: It's not just like, you know, talking. 1086 01:35:52,430 --> 01:35:54,010 Dagobert: It can lead to something cool. 1087 01:35:54,010 --> 01:36:08,750 Dagobert: And so yeah, sometimes I take this road of being a little bit more trolling because it's gonna motivate me to do better in the end. 1088 01:36:13,000 --> 01:36:15,120 Nesters: I'll let Vlad ask a question, actually. 1089 01:36:18,540 --> 01:36:22,940 Vlad: Well, thanks, Dago, and thanks, everyone, for sharing your thoughts and your experiences. 1090 01:36:23,960 --> 01:36:24,800 Vlad: Dago, I was curious. 1091 01:36:25,700 --> 01:36:30,160 Vlad: You said that every time you open Twitter, you see like hustling, MRR. 1092 01:36:31,080 --> 01:36:33,280 Vlad: And today you opened Twitter, you got depressed. 1093 01:36:33,540 --> 01:36:36,640 Vlad: Now, I don't have this experience at all. 1094 01:36:36,680 --> 01:36:41,720 Vlad: And I understand you literally have a hundred, like a thousand times more followers than me. 1095 01:36:42,060 --> 01:36:44,300 Vlad: So your experience might be vastly different. 1096 01:36:46,180 --> 01:36:50,620 Vlad: But I really don't see this content because I don't engage with it. 1097 01:36:50,720 --> 01:36:57,880 Vlad: And I just mute keywords like MRR or hustle or grind or all of that. 1098 01:36:57,980 --> 01:36:58,800 Vlad: I just mute that. 1099 01:36:59,100 --> 01:37:01,900 Vlad: And I still see it from people I follow, I care about. 1100 01:37:02,380 --> 01:37:06,640 Vlad: But how much is it the algorithm's fault? 1101 01:37:06,660 --> 01:37:11,240 Vlad: And how much is it that you engage with that content, whereas others do not? 1102 01:37:14,270 --> 01:37:25,750 Dagobert: Yeah, so I think I don't like to mute words because I think anybody can make a great post and talk about, you know, monthly recurring revenue. 1103 01:37:26,150 --> 01:37:30,970 Dagobert: It's not because it's about that, that it's not a good, inspiring post. 1104 01:37:31,490 --> 01:37:33,970 Dagobert: So I don't like to do that. 1105 01:37:35,730 --> 01:37:45,650 Dagobert: It's just, no, it's not, you know, you still see what's viral, you know, it doesn't depress me because I see people have success or that. 1106 01:37:45,990 --> 01:37:49,350 Dagobert: Just that how do you filter for inspiring content? 1107 01:37:49,590 --> 01:37:54,390 Dagobert: And the problem is if you only follow a list of people, then you miss new things. 1108 01:37:55,310 --> 01:38:02,190 Dagobert: So, yeah, I mean, also, you know, I used to focus on growing on Twitter. 1109 01:38:02,350 --> 01:38:07,330 Dagobert: I used to be every day for hours, you know, that's what I explained in my course, basically how I did that. 1110 01:38:07,970 --> 01:38:10,810 Dagobert: And I was in a completely different mindset at the time. 1111 01:38:11,150 --> 01:38:15,890 Dagobert: Now it's just like, cool, I have all these followers now, but what do I want to do with my life? 1112 01:38:15,890 --> 01:38:31,390 Dagobert: And so I open and it's also, yeah, I was talking mostly about, I wish to see maybe a bit more inspiring content that's less money focused, because basically just money doesn't inspire me. 1113 01:38:31,470 --> 01:38:36,330 Dagobert: I wish there was money plus something else, you know, and that's mostly what I was about. 1114 01:38:36,410 --> 01:38:39,650 Dagobert: But yeah, for sure, there are ways to make your feed more interesting. 1115 01:38:39,650 --> 01:38:58,690 Dagobert: Muting is a good way, you know, and for sure, but like the algorithm is one thing, but also what people post is one thing, you know, because people noticed it's easier to go viral by talking about I'm making a lot of money than it is about talking, you know, 1116 01:38:59,510 --> 01:39:05,530 Dagobert: like spending one day writing hard lessons that you've learned, trying to make a good post. 1117 01:39:05,530 --> 01:39:10,090 Dagobert: And, you know, it's less easy to make, to get engagement this way. 1118 01:39:10,630 --> 01:39:23,170 Dagobert: So it leads people like me, like I was saying earlier, I was myself a bit lazy these last few days, and tweeting more like trolling shit, instead of like going deep, because sometimes I just want to, you know, do that. 1119 01:39:23,730 --> 01:39:30,010 Dagobert: And I think that's the result of that is sometimes the feed is quite boring. 1120 01:39:30,010 --> 01:39:42,430 Dagobert: And also maybe, you know, I've been around for a few years, and a lot of friends I had made have left because of these new algorithms or like the focus that a bit changed in the community over the past few years. 1121 01:39:43,690 --> 01:39:47,930 Dagobert: And so yeah, maybe it's just, you know, I need to ship something and I'll be less depressed. 1122 01:39:48,070 --> 01:39:52,090 Dagobert: Maybe that's just it, man, you know, I just need to do something because... 1123 01:39:52,090 --> 01:40:03,650 Dagobert: But yeah, I stopped spending time on Twitter, because maybe, you know, I spend so much time I used to, I used to spend 10 hours a day, literally, for a lot for six months, and then my average was like four or five, four years. 1124 01:40:04,150 --> 01:40:06,950 Dagobert: And now I just feels good to not be on Twitter. 1125 01:40:08,050 --> 01:40:10,070 Dagobert: And, you know, come back a few times. 1126 01:40:10,570 --> 01:40:15,790 Dagobert: But like, when you don't go every day, and you come, you're like, Oh, wow, what the fuck is this? 1127 01:40:15,870 --> 01:40:21,110 Dagobert: Like, because that because there's like a whole vibe, there's a whole like, culture that's being created, you know. 1128 01:40:21,110 --> 01:40:37,370 Dagobert: And so when you're disconnecting, and you're coming back, you can see how this culture can be a bit shock, not shocking, but like, sometimes a bit fake, sometimes a bit like, I think a lot of people, and of course, I'm the first who did that for a long time. 1129 01:40:38,290 --> 01:40:39,490 Dagobert: We want engagement. 1130 01:40:39,730 --> 01:40:43,210 Dagobert: So we're gonna shape our message for that. 1131 01:40:44,130 --> 01:40:45,250 Dagobert: We all do this. 1132 01:40:45,250 --> 01:40:56,490 Dagobert: And eventually, when you see all of these messages that are shaped to get engagement in one way or another, you know, eventually, it's kind of like, it can wear you down. 1133 01:40:56,870 --> 01:41:00,650 Dagobert: So I guess I just I just had Twitter burnout, you know, a couple years ago. 1134 01:41:01,090 --> 01:41:05,670 Dagobert: And now I tread lightly, I'm a bit more, I take more of a step back. 1135 01:41:05,950 --> 01:41:08,470 Dagobert: But But yeah, you can definitely have a cool feed. 1136 01:41:08,950 --> 01:41:13,110 Dagobert: If you mute people, or you just create a list, you can definitely do that. 1137 01:41:13,110 --> 01:41:30,310 Nesters: Yeah, you know, one thing we actually enjoyed, and I know some other people have enjoyed as well, is that we're just on in the small bits community, we basically use the community as similar communication as X that we just discussed, there's like, like more than 100 channels on different topics. 1138 01:41:30,310 --> 01:41:32,670 Nesters: So people just choose what they want to talk about. 1139 01:41:32,850 --> 01:41:41,110 Nesters: And, and it's like, it's just a less of that feed of what you get on X and just like casual conversations there about similar topics. 1140 01:41:41,110 --> 01:41:48,570 Nesters: And obviously, whatever is like important, or whatever, someone curates, it technically shares it from X or YouTube, etc. 1141 01:41:48,610 --> 01:41:50,130 Nesters: So it makes it to the chat. 1142 01:41:50,450 --> 01:41:52,610 Nesters: But it's not a whole feed. 1143 01:41:52,810 --> 01:41:57,730 Nesters: So technically, I think I'd be completely fine if I would just not actually not look at X at all. 1144 01:41:57,770 --> 01:42:04,270 Nesters: And I would just look at the small bits community chat, and I'll be completely fine, I would actually know the main general trends that are happening. 1145 01:42:04,550 --> 01:42:07,730 Nesters: And I would actually will be able to talk about similar topics. 1146 01:42:07,730 --> 01:42:13,730 Nesters: And I would not be touching this, the degenerate part of the for you feed that I see every day. 1147 01:42:18,490 --> 01:42:18,970 Nesters: Yeah, 1148 01:42:22,810 --> 01:42:26,830 Nesters: you can start a vision channel in small bits and we can just, you know, talk about vision. 1149 01:42:27,350 --> 01:42:28,610 Nesters: Or maybe there's some more people. 1150 01:42:29,030 --> 01:42:32,210 Prince: We need Dagobert to join, start that channel. 1151 01:42:32,610 --> 01:42:34,950 Nesters: He does have an account, he just needs to log in. 1152 01:42:35,050 --> 01:42:37,250 Dagobert: The problem is Daniel gave it to me for free. 1153 01:42:37,470 --> 01:42:39,570 Dagobert: So like at the beginning or something. 1154 01:42:40,050 --> 01:42:43,710 Dagobert: So I'm like, when you give somebody something for free, people don't like it. 1155 01:42:43,710 --> 01:42:44,290 Dagobert: They don't value it. 1156 01:42:44,490 --> 01:42:45,530 Dagobert: Daniel, you should know that. 1157 01:42:45,930 --> 01:42:47,630 Dagobert: So I need to come. 1158 01:42:47,870 --> 01:42:48,750 Daniel: I can charge you money. 1159 01:42:50,090 --> 01:42:51,370 Dagobert: Yeah, you can charge your money. 1160 01:42:51,570 --> 01:42:53,310 Dagobert: I mean, I got your Twitter course for free as well. 1161 01:42:53,310 --> 01:42:56,270 Dagobert: If you charge me for small bits, I'm losing two weeks of work. 1162 01:42:59,810 --> 01:43:03,270 Nesters: I mean, I got your Twitter course for free as well. 1163 01:43:03,430 --> 01:43:04,770 Nesters: I guess I don't value it enough. 1164 01:43:04,890 --> 01:43:06,370 Nesters: But actually, it's good content, though. 1165 01:43:06,410 --> 01:43:07,810 Nesters: I have gone through some of it. 1166 01:43:08,330 --> 01:43:08,830 Nesters: Not all of it. 1167 01:43:08,830 --> 01:43:10,970 Dagobert: Is that why you fell under 1,000 followers? 1168 01:43:10,970 --> 01:43:13,970 Dagobert: I'm the only guy who I gave it to for free. 1169 01:43:14,050 --> 01:43:15,530 Dagobert: Or like one of three guys. 1170 01:43:15,710 --> 01:43:16,110 Dagobert: It's crazy. 1171 01:43:16,270 --> 01:43:16,610 Dagobert: It's funny. 1172 01:43:17,250 --> 01:43:17,990 Nesters: Yeah, it's funny. 1173 01:43:18,270 --> 01:43:22,730 Nesters: And I said, if I make use of it, I'll pay you back double. 1174 01:43:23,610 --> 01:43:25,350 Nesters: I'm probably just going to gift it to two. 1175 01:43:26,550 --> 01:43:28,050 Nesters: Oh, is it inflation now? 1176 01:43:28,290 --> 01:43:28,670 Nesters: Inflation? 1177 01:43:30,690 --> 01:43:34,070 Nesters: I'm probably going to just gift it to some people later. 1178 01:43:35,090 --> 01:43:37,150 Dagobert: Oh, you're going to put it on Torrent as well. 1179 01:43:37,230 --> 01:43:37,510 Dagobert: Nice. 1180 01:43:43,630 --> 01:43:46,650 Nesters: That's why I was punishing Prince. 1181 01:43:46,710 --> 01:43:50,150 Nesters: He asked me to give access to my account so he could get your course for free. 1182 01:43:52,030 --> 01:43:53,190 Prince: Why would you punish? 1183 01:43:53,350 --> 01:43:54,950 Prince: At least give it to me, then do that. 1184 01:43:55,130 --> 01:43:55,850 Prince: It doesn't make sense. 1185 01:43:56,090 --> 01:43:56,430 Prince: Come on. 1186 01:43:57,410 --> 01:44:00,570 Nesters: Yeah, but you're trying to get it for free already when he has a three-month runway. 1187 01:44:03,930 --> 01:44:05,970 Dagobert: Last year, I actually made an experiment. 1188 01:44:06,950 --> 01:44:13,110 Dagobert: I was proud that my course was one of the most seeds on Torrent. 1189 01:44:13,390 --> 01:44:14,350 Dagobert: And I thought that was awesome. 1190 01:44:14,810 --> 01:44:19,070 Dagobert: So I tried to boost it on Twitter to say, hey, can we make this viral on Torrent? 1191 01:44:19,310 --> 01:44:21,730 Dagobert: But people felt so guilty they didn't do it. 1192 01:44:21,830 --> 01:44:22,690 Dagobert: So I didn't do anything. 1193 01:44:23,050 --> 01:44:28,150 Nesters: By the way, because you gave me the course for free, I have recommended it to multiple people. 1194 01:44:28,150 --> 01:44:30,370 Nesters: And I'm pretty sure some of them have actually bought it as well. 1195 01:44:30,550 --> 01:44:32,270 Nesters: So you didn't lose money on that. 1196 01:44:33,250 --> 01:44:33,970 Dagobert: Okay, I trust you. 1197 01:44:34,170 --> 01:44:34,730 Dagobert: Okay, cool, man. 1198 01:44:35,390 --> 01:44:36,230 Dagobert: No, I was kidding anyway. 1199 01:44:37,710 --> 01:44:42,250 Nesters: But I will pay back to you, especially if your runway continues going down. 1200 01:44:42,350 --> 01:44:46,350 Nesters: I probably will feel worse about it that I haven't paid for it yet. 1201 01:44:47,890 --> 01:44:53,710 Dagobert: Yeah, maybe I should do... If I need quick money, maybe I can do a quick meme course in the weekend. 1202 01:44:54,370 --> 01:44:55,870 Dagobert: Make a few thousand with that. 1203 01:44:57,130 --> 01:45:01,390 Nesters: Or you can promote my SEO course or something whenever it comes out. 1204 01:45:01,570 --> 01:45:03,850 Nesters: Maybe I can give you 50%. 1205 01:45:05,390 --> 01:45:08,710 Dagobert: Actually, I did that with the SEO course from Danny Posma. 1206 01:45:09,130 --> 01:45:12,390 Dagobert: Yeah, $500 in one day with just one tweet. 1207 01:45:12,550 --> 01:45:12,950 Dagobert: That was cool. 1208 01:45:14,790 --> 01:45:16,650 Nesters: That's actually a good... That's what I meant. 1209 01:45:16,770 --> 01:45:21,010 Nesters: Sometimes if you actually like the product, obviously that you're promoting, etc. 1210 01:45:21,010 --> 01:45:29,590 Nesters: I know what you said about not wanting to get involved in it because it consumes you and takes over whatever you're doing. 1211 01:45:29,710 --> 01:45:32,610 Nesters: I actually have the same thing with the client work as well, honestly. 1212 01:45:33,050 --> 01:45:35,510 Nesters: Even this Yap thing, I mean, I like doing it. 1213 01:45:35,570 --> 01:45:36,090 Nesters: It's fun. 1214 01:45:36,650 --> 01:45:39,850 Nesters: But I'm actually also getting paid for it, so it's my work. 1215 01:45:40,090 --> 01:45:43,970 Nesters: And then I start thinking, because I also have that addictive personality you have. 1216 01:45:44,050 --> 01:45:46,210 Nesters: And I'm thinking, what can I do with it? 1217 01:45:46,210 --> 01:45:50,010 Nesters: Because I'm now thinking, oh, there's a SaaS product I'm slowly doing on the side. 1218 01:45:50,010 --> 01:45:54,930 Nesters: I'm not spending too much time, but it's related to the weekly Yap, this whole spaces thing. 1219 01:45:55,590 --> 01:46:01,590 Nesters: But I'm already thinking, okay, so my downside is covered because I'm getting technically paid for hosting it. 1220 01:46:02,150 --> 01:46:03,850 Nesters: And I'm like, oh, I could work on a product. 1221 01:46:03,970 --> 01:46:05,170 Nesters: My downside is partially covered. 1222 01:46:05,270 --> 01:46:08,850 Nesters: I'm not at zero MMR type of situation with that. 1223 01:46:08,950 --> 01:46:10,330 Nesters: So I'm like, I can work on a product. 1224 01:46:10,630 --> 01:46:12,290 Nesters: But that's actually taking extra time. 1225 01:46:12,290 --> 01:46:21,330 Nesters: And for me, I actually sometimes hate that part because it takes me away from other things, you know, that I'm feeling. 1226 01:46:22,490 --> 01:46:24,930 Dagobert: Yeah, you know, last year I started a podcast. 1227 01:46:25,550 --> 01:46:28,110 Dagobert: I mean, I continued the podcast, but I changed it. 1228 01:46:28,390 --> 01:46:31,130 Dagobert: And I was interviewing founders about burnout. 1229 01:46:31,410 --> 01:46:32,110 Dagobert: That was cool. 1230 01:46:32,930 --> 01:46:37,430 Dagobert: But after 10 episodes, I guess, you know, I didn't want to do sponsorships. 1231 01:46:37,890 --> 01:46:39,450 Dagobert: So I had no way of doing money. 1232 01:46:39,450 --> 01:46:43,670 Dagobert: That's the problem when you are too high on your own vision. 1233 01:46:43,830 --> 01:46:45,990 Dagobert: Then you're like, I don't want to do sponsorships because it's annoying. 1234 01:46:46,530 --> 01:46:47,570 Dagobert: And then you don't make any money. 1235 01:46:47,630 --> 01:46:48,750 Dagobert: And then you give up the project. 1236 01:46:49,950 --> 01:46:53,650 Dagobert: So, yeah, I can see how, you know... 1237 01:46:53,650 --> 01:46:55,790 Dagobert: And yeah, yapping, we all do it. 1238 01:46:56,010 --> 01:46:59,090 Dagobert: But it's not the most... I mean, it's cool. 1239 01:46:59,170 --> 01:47:02,190 Dagobert: It's cool depending on the dosage, you know. 1240 01:47:02,570 --> 01:47:06,210 Nesters: Yeah, I think we need to let Vlad ask a question. 1241 01:47:06,330 --> 01:47:08,570 Nesters: They really hate me for not letting people speak. 1242 01:47:08,570 --> 01:47:09,190 Nesters: I wonder why. 1243 01:47:12,350 --> 01:47:13,530 Daniel: I don't see how they stand. 1244 01:47:13,630 --> 01:47:15,250 Daniel: Vlad, do you have a question, I think? 1245 01:47:15,390 --> 01:47:16,230 Vlad: No, it was Dennis. 1246 01:47:16,370 --> 01:47:17,110 Vlad: Dennis raised his hand. 1247 01:47:17,110 --> 01:47:17,470 Daniel: Oh, Dennis. 1248 01:47:17,750 --> 01:47:18,110 Daniel: Oh, yeah. 1249 01:47:18,310 --> 01:47:18,730 I think so. 1250 01:47:19,890 --> 01:47:20,830 I'll go after. 1251 01:47:24,130 --> 01:47:26,670 Denis: Okay, so that's more of a comment, I guess. 1252 01:47:28,170 --> 01:47:31,390 Denis: So before I log in off... 1253 01:47:31,390 --> 01:47:40,690 Denis: So there is this, you know, cliche saying that, you know, you need to put a mask on yourself before you put it on a child. 1254 01:47:41,310 --> 01:47:47,050 Denis: So I wonder, you know, because, you know, everything you were saying, I can relate a lot to. 1255 01:47:47,850 --> 01:47:59,350 Denis: But at the same time, it feels a little bit kind of extreme in a way that, you know, like doing something for the better of everyone else. 1256 01:47:59,350 --> 01:48:16,070 Denis: While maybe I'm assuming, you know, maybe ignoring some of your own needs might like burn you out quicker rather than, you know, trying to do something that, you know, might bring some maybe more short term income. 1257 01:48:16,810 --> 01:48:22,130 Denis: You know, in the meantime, you still don't drop the idea of doing something longer term. 1258 01:48:22,530 --> 01:48:24,810 Denis: It's kind of a balance between the two. 1259 01:48:30,130 --> 01:48:34,950 Dagobert: I don't want to get too high on this idea of like changing the world. 1260 01:48:35,150 --> 01:48:46,670 Dagobert: It was more like, I think it was more honest when I said I need a quest and I need excitement and I need something cool and something a bit ambitious to be motivated. 1261 01:48:47,570 --> 01:48:51,650 Dagobert: And I think if you follow that, then you will have a good impact on the world. 1262 01:48:52,450 --> 01:49:01,590 Dagobert: But yeah, it's not like, I think it's more like, it's not motivating to me if it's too small, basically. 1263 01:49:02,070 --> 01:49:04,010 Dagobert: I cannot get up for it. 1264 01:49:04,070 --> 01:49:05,230 Dagobert: It doesn't motivate me. 1265 01:49:05,610 --> 01:49:12,510 Dagobert: So having some level of risk in that, but yeah, I don't want to act like the guy who's trying to change the world. 1266 01:49:14,210 --> 01:49:15,970 Dagobert: It's not really what I think about. 1267 01:49:15,970 --> 01:49:24,830 Dagobert: It's more like, yeah, it's a part of it, but yeah, I don't want to, it's more a quest. 1268 01:49:25,070 --> 01:49:28,810 Dagobert: It's more like looking for adventure, looking for something fun, something exciting. 1269 01:49:29,190 --> 01:49:36,950 Dagobert: And at the same time, including others in it, like kind of like moving the community in one direction and everything like that. 1270 01:49:41,270 --> 01:49:42,630 Nesters: I mean, I like that. 1271 01:49:44,270 --> 01:49:47,530 Nesters: I do actually like the vision part you just talked about. 1272 01:49:47,850 --> 01:49:56,230 Nesters: I mean, I think I, for example, I almost launched an SEO course last summer too, when the Danny Postman was launching. 1273 01:49:56,310 --> 01:49:59,510 Nesters: It was also funny that like, I believe it was Daniel who made the comment. 1274 01:49:59,850 --> 01:50:02,950 Nesters: Like when Danny announced this course, he was like, it could have been you. 1275 01:50:03,050 --> 01:50:05,530 Nesters: But obviously I don't have the audience, but yeah, I could have launched it. 1276 01:50:05,530 --> 01:50:10,830 Nesters: But at the same time, I was like, it's just going to be another course similar to the other courses. 1277 01:50:10,990 --> 01:50:14,710 Nesters: And this didn't feel as impactful. 1278 01:50:14,870 --> 01:50:21,090 Nesters: Now this year, my approach for that same thing is more, I guess, different, which again, led to another delay. 1279 01:50:21,250 --> 01:50:27,170 Nesters: Because again, just like you, I wanted to mean something more than just the course. 1280 01:50:27,690 --> 01:50:35,310 Nesters: I was like, wait, there's a lot of new developers coming in, like the wipe developers, you know, wipe hackers. 1281 01:50:35,530 --> 01:50:39,630 Nesters: And they can be completely out of the tech space. 1282 01:50:39,790 --> 01:50:43,990 Nesters: So I felt like I could actually address that very, very beginner audience. 1283 01:50:45,110 --> 01:50:52,350 Nesters: And I can address that very beginner audience with SEO, because I noticed that a lot of people, they start doing the courses for SEO as well. 1284 01:50:52,350 --> 01:50:54,130 Nesters: And they just have some gap missing. 1285 01:50:54,290 --> 01:51:00,410 Nesters: And they just don't actually start implementing anything, because they still don't get it, even after going through the course. 1286 01:51:00,910 --> 01:51:06,830 Nesters: Sometimes the course is just too much information, not on the very surface, beginner level, but a little bit more. 1287 01:51:07,070 --> 01:51:11,290 Nesters: Like there's a lot of like these pieces, like these puzzle pieces, you could just put them together. 1288 01:51:11,470 --> 01:51:17,090 Nesters: But you don't really know how the whole puzzle works, I guess, what you're looking at when you put it together. 1289 01:51:17,390 --> 01:51:19,770 Nesters: And I was like, okay, I can address that market. 1290 01:51:19,770 --> 01:51:23,810 Nesters: But then what delayed me now is like, I was like, but it's 2025. 1291 01:51:24,270 --> 01:51:25,990 Nesters: Like Google SEO isn't real. 1292 01:51:26,450 --> 01:51:30,730 Nesters: Like SEO in itself means search engine optimization, doesn't mean Google optimization. 1293 01:51:31,630 --> 01:51:39,370 Nesters: So like, oh, but then you actually need to think about LLMs, you have Reddit, you have YouTube, all those platforms, you can do SEO. 1294 01:51:39,630 --> 01:51:43,610 Nesters: And the same concepts apply to all those platforms. 1295 01:51:43,610 --> 01:51:47,310 Nesters: They just have different variables that are more important for each platform. 1296 01:51:47,310 --> 01:52:02,250 Nesters: And I'm like, so actually you need to approach it from that angle to be actually more valuable, not focusing on Google being in the general, or not even focusing on LLM specifically, but actually getting that holistic beginner introduction view, right. 1297 01:52:03,030 --> 01:52:09,390 Nesters: And for that, I'm like, I'm just delaying because of that, because I'm thinking like, okay, now it just needs to be, you know, addressing. 1298 01:52:10,170 --> 01:52:11,570 Dagobert: No, but that's super interesting. 1299 01:52:11,570 --> 01:52:16,250 Dagobert: You know, one of the products I could launch was my Twitter course. 1300 01:52:16,470 --> 01:52:25,010 Dagobert: And that's because at the time I was so obsessed with it and I figured things that most people didn't know. 1301 01:52:25,950 --> 01:52:30,530 Dagobert: And so I really was convinced I could bring something interesting and new. 1302 01:52:30,790 --> 01:52:31,930 Dagobert: I really was convinced. 1303 01:52:32,910 --> 01:52:34,710 Dagobert: And it was right, actually. 1304 01:52:34,870 --> 01:52:37,190 Dagobert: But anyway, I was convinced about it. 1305 01:52:37,190 --> 01:52:42,550 Dagobert: And that really helped me because I felt like I have something to bring. 1306 01:52:42,930 --> 01:52:45,850 Dagobert: You know, it's not just that people validate it. 1307 01:52:45,930 --> 01:52:48,270 Dagobert: It's like, I felt it in my bones. 1308 01:52:48,350 --> 01:52:49,230 Dagobert: Oh, this is cool. 1309 01:52:49,330 --> 01:52:51,210 Dagobert: This is not just another Twitter course. 1310 01:52:51,670 --> 01:52:52,730 Dagobert: This shit is good. 1311 01:52:52,870 --> 01:52:54,250 Dagobert: That's how I felt about it. 1312 01:52:54,870 --> 01:53:04,010 Dagobert: And so when I hear you, I'm like, it makes me think of, I think to have that feeling, it's because there's also a timing thing. 1313 01:53:04,490 --> 01:53:07,510 Dagobert: Because, for example, the Twitter algorithm always changes. 1314 01:53:07,850 --> 01:53:11,470 Dagobert: And at the time of my course, I was just at the leading edge of this. 1315 01:53:12,110 --> 01:53:15,390 Dagobert: And so I felt I had the right window of opportunity to launch it. 1316 01:53:15,670 --> 01:53:20,690 Dagobert: And also not just in terms of making money, but in terms of bringing the maximum value to people. 1317 01:53:21,190 --> 01:53:22,550 Dagobert: Because it's timed right. 1318 01:53:23,470 --> 01:53:26,230 Dagobert: And it's perfect for the market at that time. 1319 01:53:26,470 --> 01:53:27,670 Dagobert: And that's perfect value. 1320 01:53:27,670 --> 01:53:38,930 Dagobert: And so when you say that, for example, that makes me think for your SEO course, I guess, yeah, SEO course is kind of like boring in the sense that there's a billion of them. 1321 01:53:39,070 --> 01:53:40,390 Dagobert: So it's maybe hard to differentiate. 1322 01:53:41,270 --> 01:53:52,530 Dagobert: But if you start thinking, okay, how can I make it a little bit more like LLM search engine course, then maybe that's a unique angle. 1323 01:53:52,810 --> 01:53:55,930 Dagobert: And that's more exciting for you because you have a window of opportunity. 1324 01:53:55,930 --> 01:54:00,030 Dagobert: And you can use all of your SEO-based knowledge. 1325 01:54:00,550 --> 01:54:02,790 Dagobert: So that gives a big foundation for the course. 1326 01:54:03,050 --> 01:54:04,410 Dagobert: But then use this other thing. 1327 01:54:04,830 --> 01:54:07,870 Dagobert: And that can be more motivating because you know... 1328 01:54:07,870 --> 01:54:11,650 Dagobert: Because an SEO course, it exists for 20 years. 1329 01:54:11,770 --> 01:54:13,790 Dagobert: So it's not like you have urgency. 1330 01:54:14,490 --> 01:54:18,210 Dagobert: But LLM-related course, maybe it can help you in a way. 1331 01:54:18,450 --> 01:54:22,370 Dagobert: Because you will feel maybe even prouder and more excited about it. 1332 01:54:22,970 --> 01:54:24,170 Dagobert: And maybe it can help. 1333 01:54:24,730 --> 01:54:33,870 Nesters: Yeah, I think I missed a little bit out on the window as well when the wipe hacking was specifically peaking in the discussion. 1334 01:54:34,150 --> 01:54:35,610 Dagobert: You have two windows. 1335 01:54:35,810 --> 01:54:40,070 Dagobert: For example, I launched my course one year after, I think, Daniel's Twitter course. 1336 01:54:41,750 --> 01:54:47,310 Dagobert: And I remember when I did it, most people told me how I had missed the window. 1337 01:54:47,570 --> 01:54:50,710 Dagobert: They told me, you already have a Twitter course from Daniel Vassallo. 1338 01:54:50,870 --> 01:54:52,470 Dagobert: There's already a Twitter course from Arvid. 1339 01:54:52,470 --> 01:54:54,010 Dagobert: There were many Twitter courses. 1340 01:54:54,130 --> 01:54:55,390 Dagobert: I was coming one year later. 1341 01:54:56,410 --> 01:55:00,850 Dagobert: But still, I succeeded because of that. 1342 01:55:01,070 --> 01:55:02,190 Dagobert: Because I could still... 1343 01:55:02,190 --> 01:55:04,510 Dagobert: The window is not that short, I think. 1344 01:55:04,630 --> 01:55:05,830 Dagobert: Because there's always... 1345 01:55:05,830 --> 01:55:07,430 Dagobert: People are still lagging. 1346 01:55:07,990 --> 01:55:10,470 Dagobert: It's not like you don't have just one week. 1347 01:55:10,710 --> 01:55:11,330 Nesters: Yeah, that's right. 1348 01:55:12,910 --> 01:55:18,270 Nesters: That's why I specifically thought about targeting the wipe developers, wipe hackers. 1349 01:55:18,630 --> 01:55:21,090 Nesters: It's because they will be coming continuously. 1350 01:55:21,090 --> 01:55:23,110 Nesters: They will continue coming for years now. 1351 01:55:24,030 --> 01:55:26,010 Nesters: That window, I think, is pretty long. 1352 01:55:26,730 --> 01:55:29,070 Nesters: But that's why I wanted to make the approach holistic. 1353 01:55:29,590 --> 01:55:32,290 Nesters: Because approaching just Google definitely doesn't matter. 1354 01:55:32,710 --> 01:55:38,110 Nesters: Even approaching just LLMs, to me, is a little bit too narrow. 1355 01:55:38,370 --> 01:55:40,830 Nesters: Because I know that generally, you should actually... 1356 01:55:40,830 --> 01:55:42,850 Nesters: Nowadays, it's mostly about branding yourself. 1357 01:55:44,150 --> 01:55:46,650 Nesters: So brand exists everywhere. 1358 01:55:46,830 --> 01:55:50,770 Nesters: Google, X, YouTube, every single platform. 1359 01:55:50,990 --> 01:55:52,090 Nesters: And that is the SEO. 1360 01:55:52,470 --> 01:55:56,490 Nesters: The surface area you should be covering with different content. 1361 01:55:57,850 --> 01:56:00,110 Daniel: And I think these products also... 1362 01:56:00,110 --> 01:56:02,650 Daniel: The creator is also part of the product. 1363 01:56:02,870 --> 01:56:08,270 Daniel: So there's also automatic differentiation. 1364 01:56:09,070 --> 01:56:11,050 Daniel: So that's also part of it. 1365 01:56:11,050 --> 01:56:14,470 Daniel: That doesn't necessarily mean you have a big personal brand. 1366 01:56:14,570 --> 01:56:19,270 Daniel: But I think even your background and experience just makes your product different. 1367 01:56:19,510 --> 01:56:22,510 Daniel: So there could be dozens of SEO courses. 1368 01:56:22,770 --> 01:56:25,370 Daniel: But who's making them matters. 1369 01:56:26,510 --> 01:56:28,370 Daniel: They're not just information, basically. 1370 01:56:28,530 --> 01:56:33,450 Daniel: People want to sometimes identify with the creator, with the author. 1371 01:56:34,770 --> 01:56:38,690 Daniel: Of course, if they have some connection with them already, it helps even more. 1372 01:56:38,690 --> 01:56:41,470 Daniel: I think where audiences help as well. 1373 01:56:41,990 --> 01:56:46,310 Daniel: So there's that angle as well to consider. 1374 01:56:46,810 --> 01:56:48,630 Daniel: Anyway, I'm going to have to leave. 1375 01:56:48,930 --> 01:56:49,930 Daniel: Because I have another call. 1376 01:56:50,250 --> 01:56:55,790 Daniel: But I'll let you guys continue chatting and yapping if there's more to say. 1377 01:56:56,710 --> 01:56:59,350 Nesters: Bye, Daniel. 1378 01:56:59,550 --> 01:57:00,810 Nesters: Thanks for joining. 1379 01:57:01,230 --> 01:57:03,090 Nesters: Dagger actually showed up in small bits. 1380 01:57:03,470 --> 01:57:04,070 Daniel: Oh, that's great. 1381 01:57:05,210 --> 01:57:06,470 Dagobert: Vlad, do you have a question? 1382 01:57:06,470 --> 01:57:07,930 Dagobert: Maybe I just need friends. 1383 01:57:08,130 --> 01:57:10,570 Dagobert: So I'm going to join and see if I can find friends. 1384 01:57:11,010 --> 01:57:11,010 Awesome. 1385 01:57:11,410 --> 01:57:12,190 Daniel: We got something. 1386 01:57:12,330 --> 01:57:13,330 Daniel: We made an impact, you see. 1387 01:57:15,890 --> 01:57:18,510 Daniel: Thanks, Dagger. 1388 01:57:18,690 --> 01:57:18,890 Daniel: Cheers. 1389 01:57:21,370 --> 01:57:22,590 Nesters: Vlad had a question. 1390 01:57:22,710 --> 01:57:24,410 Nesters: And I assume it's targeted towards Dagger. 1391 01:57:25,290 --> 01:57:25,850 Vlad: Of course. 1392 01:57:26,030 --> 01:57:28,350 Vlad: Well, now he's going to read all the crap we wrote about him. 1393 01:57:31,750 --> 01:57:33,350 Nesters: Don't use the search button. 1394 01:57:33,350 --> 01:57:36,510 Nesters: No, it's not. 1395 01:57:37,190 --> 01:57:37,910 Nesters: No chance. 1396 01:57:38,170 --> 01:57:39,570 Nesters: You should be using that smudge button. 1397 01:57:39,790 --> 01:57:43,350 Nesters: Like that small magnifying glass next to the chat window. 1398 01:57:44,270 --> 01:57:45,910 Nesters: And just press and write Dagger. 1399 01:57:46,650 --> 01:57:49,470 Dagobert: Yeah, I'm scrolling, but maybe I will stop scrolling. 1400 01:57:49,750 --> 01:57:50,110 Dagobert: Okay, yeah. 1401 01:57:50,470 --> 01:57:50,730 Dagobert: Go ahead. 1402 01:57:51,030 --> 01:57:52,890 Nesters: There's so many messages, by the way. 1403 01:57:53,330 --> 01:57:54,930 Nesters: Largely thanks to me and Prince. 1404 01:57:55,090 --> 01:57:56,430 Nesters: But there's a lot of messages. 1405 01:57:57,290 --> 01:57:58,970 Nesters: Maybe you should explore these. 1406 01:58:02,750 --> 01:58:04,610 Nesters: Let's not talk about your dream, though. 1407 01:58:04,970 --> 01:58:05,770 Prince: Okay, yeah. 1408 01:58:05,970 --> 01:58:07,630 Nesters: We had a dream about you. 1409 01:58:07,950 --> 01:58:09,750 Nesters: We had a dream about you last night, by the way. 1410 01:58:09,890 --> 01:58:11,670 Nesters: You sound so rank. 1411 01:58:12,970 --> 01:58:13,510 Dagobert: Oh, wow. 1412 01:58:13,630 --> 01:58:14,410 Dagobert: No, that's cool. 1413 01:58:14,770 --> 01:58:15,090 Dagobert: That's cool. 1414 01:58:16,570 --> 01:58:18,450 Nesters: We can link it to you later. 1415 01:58:18,830 --> 01:58:20,650 Nesters: But Vlad, go on with your question. 1416 01:58:21,810 --> 01:58:23,030 Vlad: Okay, my question. 1417 01:58:23,150 --> 01:58:24,750 Vlad: Well, we keep talking about a quest. 1418 01:58:25,250 --> 01:58:27,430 Vlad: And every man needs a quest. 1419 01:58:28,070 --> 01:58:31,230 Vlad: And, of course, everyone needs a main quest. 1420 01:58:31,510 --> 01:58:33,030 Vlad: But what about side quests? 1421 01:58:33,130 --> 01:58:34,250 Vlad: What about daily quests? 1422 01:58:35,210 --> 01:58:39,010 Vlad: What about being inspired by the small things in life? 1423 01:58:39,010 --> 01:58:45,810 Vlad: Not just, you know, landing rockets and whatever the greatest amazing new app that was built. 1424 01:58:46,370 --> 01:58:55,350 Vlad: But, you know, the guy who keeps bees and is trying to trap that skunk that is trying to eat his bees. 1425 01:58:55,350 --> 01:58:57,870 Vlad: And every week he comes up with new traps. 1426 01:58:58,850 --> 01:59:06,250 Vlad: Or this lady who lives somewhere in the mountains and is making flower wreaths and just pulls flower wreaths. 1427 01:59:06,430 --> 01:59:09,510 Vlad: You know, you can be inspired by all sorts of stuff. 1428 01:59:09,890 --> 01:59:12,270 Vlad: And I think you need all levels of inspiration. 1429 01:59:12,270 --> 01:59:18,530 Vlad: So, are you just looking for the big inspiring things? 1430 01:59:18,810 --> 01:59:26,310 Vlad: Or what is your distribution of big, mid-sized, small inspirations? 1431 01:59:27,190 --> 01:59:33,630 Dagobert: Yeah, I think, you know, maybe the way I talked about it, maybe I wasn't clear. 1432 01:59:33,870 --> 01:59:37,730 Dagobert: Because it really depends on who you are. 1433 01:59:37,730 --> 01:59:42,230 Dagobert: The big quest for me is not the big quest for you. 1434 01:59:43,150 --> 01:59:45,850 Dagobert: Like, I don't think of launching rockets, to be honest. 1435 01:59:46,090 --> 01:59:50,630 Dagobert: That's not something that I think is absolutely... or something on that level. 1436 01:59:50,750 --> 01:59:52,530 Dagobert: Or even doing something like the iPhone. 1437 01:59:52,810 --> 01:59:54,670 Dagobert: It's absolutely not the kind of quest. 1438 01:59:55,110 --> 01:59:56,110 Dagobert: It's really personal. 1439 01:59:57,290 --> 02:00:02,130 Dagobert: And after talking about all these big quests, now I feel almost stupid to say right now my quest. 1440 02:00:02,690 --> 02:00:03,490 Dagobert: I have two things. 1441 02:00:03,570 --> 02:00:04,590 Dagobert: I have this launch day thing. 1442 02:00:04,650 --> 02:00:05,610 Dagobert: I have another product. 1443 02:00:06,870 --> 02:00:08,510 Dagobert: I'm afraid to talk about it. 1444 02:00:08,710 --> 02:00:12,050 Dagobert: Because I'm like, I don't want to get the idea stolen. 1445 02:00:12,210 --> 02:00:14,090 Dagobert: Which I know is a bad idea to not talk. 1446 02:00:14,190 --> 02:00:16,230 Dagobert: But anyway, I will still not talk about it. 1447 02:00:16,450 --> 02:00:20,470 Dagobert: But anyway, it doesn't have to be the biggest thing for sure. 1448 02:00:20,910 --> 02:00:26,370 Dagobert: It really depends on who you are, where you are, who you're with. 1449 02:00:27,470 --> 02:00:28,570 Dagobert: The stage of life. 1450 02:00:28,990 --> 02:00:31,290 Dagobert: And you can do small things and it can lead to big things. 1451 02:00:31,790 --> 02:00:32,890 Dagobert: No problem with that. 1452 02:00:32,890 --> 02:00:41,110 Dagobert: I think also my frustration was coming from just having a quest in general. 1453 02:00:41,770 --> 02:00:42,590 Dagobert: And not just money. 1454 02:00:42,710 --> 02:00:43,930 Dagobert: That was mostly my frustration. 1455 02:00:45,590 --> 02:00:49,070 Dagobert: The conversation on social media being so focused on money. 1456 02:00:49,810 --> 02:00:52,530 Dagobert: And doing things based on that. 1457 02:00:52,610 --> 02:00:55,230 Dagobert: Instead of having a little bigger vision. 1458 02:00:55,830 --> 02:00:57,890 Dagobert: But it doesn't have to be launching rockets. 1459 02:00:57,890 --> 02:01:04,230 Dagobert: It can just be, I want to help some people with my products. 1460 02:01:04,450 --> 02:01:08,330 Dagobert: And somebody who feels that connection to people. 1461 02:01:08,830 --> 02:01:12,590 Dagobert: It's not about how deep it is. 1462 02:01:12,650 --> 02:01:15,030 Dagobert: It's not about how big it is, basically. 1463 02:01:16,110 --> 02:01:18,070 Dagobert: I guess that's a better way to say my point. 1464 02:01:19,150 --> 02:01:25,350 Dagobert: For example, I put a lot of attention on this launch day product I'm doing. 1465 02:01:27,090 --> 02:01:28,290 Dagobert: It's deep for me. 1466 02:01:28,590 --> 02:01:31,030 Dagobert: And my previous product was a logo generator. 1467 02:01:31,630 --> 02:01:34,070 Dagobert: And we just approached it in a completely different way. 1468 02:01:34,190 --> 02:01:35,350 Dagobert: It was a logo generator. 1469 02:01:35,730 --> 02:01:42,030 Dagobert: But it was based on the work of our designer. 1470 02:01:42,290 --> 02:01:44,550 Dagobert: Which was my co-founder, my ex-wife. 1471 02:01:45,410 --> 02:01:48,010 Dagobert: And that was a completely different way of solving this problem. 1472 02:01:48,550 --> 02:01:51,310 Dagobert: And so we put a lot of attention on it. 1473 02:01:51,310 --> 02:01:54,610 Dagobert: And we had, before I left, because now she's still running it. 1474 02:01:54,670 --> 02:01:57,250 Dagobert: But just as a way to get some freelance jobs, mostly. 1475 02:01:57,710 --> 02:02:01,090 Dagobert: And we probably sold 900 logos or 850. 1476 02:02:02,350 --> 02:02:04,230 Dagobert: By the time we kind of stopped. 1477 02:02:04,990 --> 02:02:08,410 Dagobert: But just touching people, it's like a $100 product it was. 1478 02:02:09,070 --> 02:02:13,910 Dagobert: And just touching people with that, to me that was so meaningful. 1479 02:02:14,210 --> 02:02:15,410 Dagobert: And to me that was big. 1480 02:02:16,030 --> 02:02:18,230 Dagobert: So yeah, for sure, I don't mean launching rockets. 1481 02:02:18,230 --> 02:02:24,110 Dagobert: I just mean putting attention and intention in what you do. 1482 02:02:25,090 --> 02:02:26,750 Dagobert: And that's what I really want to see. 1483 02:02:28,410 --> 02:02:32,190 Dagobert: Because I don't believe you can do that with an AI reply bot. 1484 02:02:33,510 --> 02:02:34,770 Dagobert: But maybe you can. 1485 02:02:35,390 --> 02:02:39,330 Dagobert: Actually, I saw someone make a social platform. 1486 02:02:40,270 --> 02:02:43,910 Dagobert: I forgot his name, but I was seeing him on Twitter like a month ago or so. 1487 02:02:44,470 --> 02:02:46,070 Dagobert: And it was like a Twitter competitor. 1488 02:02:46,070 --> 02:02:48,290 Dagobert: Super ambitious actually, but anyway. 1489 02:02:49,350 --> 02:02:54,410 Dagobert: And this idea was like, you would have actual humans and AI side by side. 1490 02:02:54,510 --> 02:02:56,250 Dagobert: But in a way that was acknowledged. 1491 02:02:56,690 --> 02:02:59,970 Dagobert: Not like hiding, not like fake AI replies. 1492 02:02:59,990 --> 02:03:03,110 Dagobert: Just like you would have AI be part of the conversation. 1493 02:03:03,490 --> 02:03:06,310 Dagobert: You could have an AI version of yourself part of the conversation. 1494 02:03:06,670 --> 02:03:07,850 Dagobert: And I thought that was really cool. 1495 02:03:08,150 --> 02:03:09,850 Dagobert: And this guy had a very cool vision. 1496 02:03:10,370 --> 02:03:13,750 Dagobert: So it's not about even doing a specific product. 1497 02:03:13,750 --> 02:03:16,490 Dagobert: It's not about against AI bots. 1498 02:03:16,590 --> 02:03:20,750 Dagobert: It's just about if you care enough to look deep into it. 1499 02:03:20,870 --> 02:03:24,370 Dagobert: And be like, okay, what's a cool thing we can do with that? 1500 02:03:24,490 --> 02:03:25,330 Dagobert: And it can be small. 1501 02:03:25,430 --> 02:03:29,190 Dagobert: You know, my previous startup, we only had less than a thousand customers. 1502 02:03:29,690 --> 02:03:31,050 Dagobert: But to me, that was very meaningful. 1503 02:03:31,750 --> 02:03:35,590 Dagobert: And if I can just get some people with launch day. 1504 02:03:35,850 --> 02:03:41,090 Dagobert: And if I can touch, I don't know, a hundred or a thousand entrepreneurs with that. 1505 02:03:41,690 --> 02:03:45,490 Dagobert: I would be like... I mean, if it's meaningful, it's cool, man. 1506 02:03:45,750 --> 02:03:46,990 Dagobert: So, yeah, that's my point. 1507 02:03:50,650 --> 02:03:54,350 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I guess Vlad, do you have a comment? 1508 02:03:55,890 --> 02:04:00,850 Vlad: Yeah, I was more asking about not even work or projects. 1509 02:04:01,150 --> 02:04:06,070 Vlad: But I get inspired by just very small things. 1510 02:04:06,070 --> 02:04:09,590 Vlad: Like the way that my dog does something every day. 1511 02:04:09,590 --> 02:04:13,490 Vlad: Or the Spanish latte that my wife makes. 1512 02:04:13,730 --> 02:04:15,570 Vlad: Or some breakfast that she cooks. 1513 02:04:15,950 --> 02:04:17,350 Vlad: You know, stuff like that. 1514 02:04:17,870 --> 02:04:21,130 Vlad: For me, this is a source of inspiration daily. 1515 02:04:21,790 --> 02:04:24,390 Vlad: It's not only the big things. 1516 02:04:24,670 --> 02:04:26,350 Vlad: Or it's not only work. 1517 02:04:27,710 --> 02:04:28,850 Nesters: Yeah, it's like kids as well. 1518 02:04:28,950 --> 02:04:31,010 Nesters: Kids is actually one source of inspiration. 1519 02:04:31,090 --> 02:04:35,610 Nesters: Not even that you have kids and you need to work for money to feed them, etc. 1520 02:04:35,870 --> 02:04:36,730 Nesters: And teach them skills. 1521 02:04:36,730 --> 02:04:37,930 Nesters: But more like they exist. 1522 02:04:38,270 --> 02:04:42,030 Nesters: And you can have so much experiences with them. 1523 02:04:42,130 --> 02:04:44,790 Nesters: See how they learn and how they develop. 1524 02:04:44,970 --> 02:04:47,070 Nesters: And that inspires you in some other ways. 1525 02:04:47,970 --> 02:04:52,690 Nesters: I think that's basically what we're talking about. 1526 02:04:52,730 --> 02:04:54,010 Nesters: The everyday experiences. 1527 02:04:55,290 --> 02:04:57,990 Vlad: For you, Nestor, it's also kids. 1528 02:04:58,190 --> 02:05:00,650 Vlad: I'm just asking for everyone else. 1529 02:05:00,950 --> 02:05:01,910 Vlad: For Dago, for example. 1530 02:05:02,270 --> 02:05:03,750 Vlad: Do you have things like that? 1531 02:05:04,650 --> 02:05:08,950 Vlad: Small joys that you appreciate every day and you get inspired by? 1532 02:05:10,530 --> 02:05:15,270 Dagobert: Yeah, what really helped me was going for long walks every day. 1533 02:05:15,910 --> 02:05:17,470 Dagobert: I live near a park. 1534 02:05:17,650 --> 02:05:19,890 Dagobert: So it's a cool big park. 1535 02:05:21,090 --> 02:05:22,610 Dagobert: And yeah, every day I go there. 1536 02:05:23,050 --> 02:05:29,090 Dagobert: And I usually take pictures of when I see something inspiring for me. 1537 02:05:29,370 --> 02:05:30,630 Dagobert: So that's a cool thing. 1538 02:05:31,530 --> 02:05:32,830 Dagobert: But it's interesting what you say. 1539 02:05:32,830 --> 02:05:34,830 Dagobert: Because it makes me realize, yeah, I'm not really... 1540 02:05:36,350 --> 02:05:37,670 Dagobert: I appreciate things. 1541 02:05:37,810 --> 02:05:43,910 Dagobert: But yeah, I might not be at my highest appreciation time right now. 1542 02:05:43,910 --> 02:05:45,910 Dagobert: Where I see the beauty in every little thing. 1543 02:05:46,750 --> 02:05:49,870 Dagobert: It's true that right now I'm more like in my head. 1544 02:05:50,210 --> 02:05:53,350 Dagobert: Worried about, okay, what thing I'm going to do. 1545 02:05:53,450 --> 02:05:54,390 Dagobert: How I'm going to do this. 1546 02:05:56,390 --> 02:05:58,670 Dagobert: And yes, that's interesting what you're telling me. 1547 02:05:58,710 --> 02:06:01,990 Dagobert: Because it makes me want to do that. 1548 02:06:01,990 --> 02:06:05,510 Nesters: By the way, you wrote something in a post. 1549 02:06:05,650 --> 02:06:08,930 Nesters: That you do two hours of introspection. 1550 02:06:10,430 --> 02:06:11,470 Nesters: Daily, approximately. 1551 02:06:11,730 --> 02:06:13,330 Nesters: I think that was introspection journaling. 1552 02:06:14,350 --> 02:06:17,550 Nesters: How does that play into... 1553 02:06:17,550 --> 02:06:21,930 Nesters: Not even experiences and maybe actually as a meditative experience. 1554 02:06:22,130 --> 02:06:23,050 Nesters: And reflecting on yourself. 1555 02:06:23,450 --> 02:06:26,370 Nesters: But some might say two hours is too much. 1556 02:06:26,390 --> 02:06:28,470 Nesters: That you actually get stuck in your head in a way too. 1557 02:06:28,730 --> 02:06:31,110 Nesters: And then you can't appreciate some experiences. 1558 02:06:31,110 --> 02:06:33,810 Nesters: Rather than it actually transforming for the better. 1559 02:06:33,990 --> 02:06:35,710 Nesters: So what's your relationship with that? 1560 02:06:38,510 --> 02:06:39,110 Dagobert: So... 1561 02:06:40,250 --> 02:06:42,350 Dagobert: What I talk about... 1562 02:06:44,890 --> 02:06:46,890 Dagobert: I'm trying to find where to start. 1563 02:06:49,030 --> 02:06:52,890 Dagobert: I just had a few months where I was very focused on. 1564 02:06:53,150 --> 02:06:56,810 Dagobert: Trying to understand what was motivating me. 1565 02:06:57,110 --> 02:06:58,650 Dagobert: Because I was losing motivation. 1566 02:06:58,650 --> 02:07:03,150 Dagobert: And I was still in the aftermath of burnout. 1567 02:07:03,270 --> 02:07:04,070 Dagobert: Depression and everything. 1568 02:07:04,750 --> 02:07:06,170 Dagobert: And I was mostly trying to get. 1569 02:07:06,250 --> 02:07:08,550 Dagobert: What's happening in my brain? 1570 02:07:08,770 --> 02:07:09,850 Dagobert: I was more trying... 1571 02:07:09,850 --> 02:07:13,270 Dagobert: That was literally my quest for a few months. 1572 02:07:13,690 --> 02:07:15,690 Dagobert: And for these months I didn't do anything. 1573 02:07:15,970 --> 02:07:18,590 Dagobert: In terms of work with any of my projects. 1574 02:07:18,730 --> 02:07:23,750 Dagobert: I was mostly focused on healing myself from the inside. 1575 02:07:24,090 --> 02:07:26,650 Dagobert: Understanding why I wasn't motivating. 1576 02:07:26,650 --> 02:07:30,190 Dagobert: Understanding why I felt no joy or anything. 1577 02:07:31,330 --> 02:07:32,950 Dagobert: And I was trying to understand basically. 1578 02:07:33,270 --> 02:07:35,630 Dagobert: So what I did... 1579 02:07:36,450 --> 02:07:39,810 Dagobert: I made kind of a map of everything I was thinking. 1580 02:07:40,390 --> 02:07:42,610 Dagobert: And I have like hundreds and hundreds of post-its. 1581 02:07:42,770 --> 02:07:44,930 Dagobert: About thoughts and how they connect to each other. 1582 02:07:45,010 --> 02:07:46,130 Dagobert: To try to find the source. 1583 02:07:47,450 --> 02:07:48,690 Dagobert: Where is the pain? 1584 02:07:48,810 --> 02:07:49,490 Dagobert: Where is the fear? 1585 02:07:49,630 --> 02:07:51,310 Dagobert: Because it's always fear or something like that. 1586 02:07:51,330 --> 02:07:52,290 Dagobert: Or some childhood shit. 1587 02:07:52,510 --> 02:07:53,190 Dagobert: It's always like that. 1588 02:07:54,250 --> 02:07:55,810 Dagobert: And kind of like... 1589 02:07:55,810 --> 02:07:57,790 Dagobert: Seeing how my brain works. 1590 02:07:57,990 --> 02:07:59,250 Dagobert: At first it was like... 1591 02:07:59,250 --> 02:08:01,230 Dagobert: Why am I a perfectionist? 1592 02:08:01,330 --> 02:08:03,530 Dagobert: Because a few months ago I couldn't even work. 1593 02:08:03,730 --> 02:08:05,210 Dagobert: I wasn't even able to work. 1594 02:08:05,770 --> 02:08:07,550 Dagobert: And I was wondering why. 1595 02:08:07,630 --> 02:08:09,770 Dagobert: Why am I so blocked? 1596 02:08:09,910 --> 02:08:11,230 Dagobert: Why am I so... 1597 02:08:11,640 --> 02:08:13,050 Dagobert: Preventing myself from doing anything? 1598 02:08:13,550 --> 02:08:16,710 Dagobert: So this introspection is basically just observing my thoughts. 1599 02:08:16,810 --> 02:08:19,170 Dagobert: So there's definitely a little bit of meditation to that. 1600 02:08:19,750 --> 02:08:21,090 Dagobert: But it's a lot of journaling. 1601 02:08:22,550 --> 02:08:24,310 Dagobert: Looking also a bit at the past. 1602 02:08:24,310 --> 02:08:26,690 Dagobert: In the past I was more spontaneous. 1603 02:08:27,070 --> 02:08:28,630 Dagobert: Because I wasn't always a perfectionist. 1604 02:08:28,690 --> 02:08:31,870 Dagobert: When I was 18 I was shipping shit products very quickly. 1605 02:08:31,970 --> 02:08:33,370 Dagobert: I didn't mind and I was quite happy. 1606 02:08:33,990 --> 02:08:35,630 Dagobert: So it wasn't always this way. 1607 02:08:36,210 --> 02:08:37,030 Dagobert: So trying to understand. 1608 02:08:37,130 --> 02:08:39,370 Dagobert: It was mostly trying to understand... 1609 02:08:39,370 --> 02:08:41,590 Dagobert: What made me change? 1610 02:08:41,690 --> 02:08:44,330 Dagobert: What made me lose this kind of like... 1611 02:08:45,950 --> 02:08:46,430 Dagobert: Easygoing... 1612 02:08:46,430 --> 02:08:48,850 Dagobert: I mean I was never an easygoing guy. 1613 02:08:49,010 --> 02:08:50,290 Dagobert: But I mean... 1614 02:08:50,290 --> 02:08:53,090 Dagobert: More spontaneous in the way I build and ship. 1615 02:08:53,090 --> 02:08:55,990 Dagobert: Because I started building products when I was 15 or 16. 1616 02:08:56,190 --> 02:08:57,210 Dagobert: You know the first websites. 1617 02:08:58,310 --> 02:09:00,350 Dagobert: When it was still the beginning of CSS. 1618 02:09:00,730 --> 02:09:01,990 Dagobert: So that's quite a long time ago. 1619 02:09:03,190 --> 02:09:03,430 Dagobert: And... 1620 02:09:04,110 --> 02:09:04,990 Dagobert: I just... 1621 02:09:04,990 --> 02:09:06,650 Dagobert: At the time I was doing very differently. 1622 02:09:06,770 --> 02:09:08,370 Dagobert: So it was interesting to me to understand. 1623 02:09:08,510 --> 02:09:10,050 Dagobert: After this big crisis in my life. 1624 02:09:10,610 --> 02:09:12,110 Dagobert: Trying to understand... 1625 02:09:12,110 --> 02:09:14,790 Dagobert: Not what went wrong but just what happened. 1626 02:09:14,990 --> 02:09:16,830 Dagobert: Like how I went from... 1627 02:09:16,830 --> 02:09:19,110 Dagobert: Being happily shipping products. 1628 02:09:19,110 --> 02:09:20,310 Dagobert: Even if they weren't perfect. 1629 02:09:20,310 --> 02:09:21,690 Dagobert: To burning out. 1630 02:09:21,750 --> 02:09:23,290 Dagobert: Because I'm just overworking. 1631 02:09:23,670 --> 02:09:26,050 Dagobert: And still not even shipping much. 1632 02:09:26,190 --> 02:09:28,010 Dagobert: Because I'm paralyzed and scared. 1633 02:09:28,310 --> 02:09:30,110 Dagobert: So it was mostly that like... 1634 02:09:30,110 --> 02:09:31,990 Dagobert: Trying to figure out... 1635 02:09:31,990 --> 02:09:33,830 Dagobert: You know all of my experiences. 1636 02:09:34,170 --> 02:09:35,670 Dagobert: And documenting them. 1637 02:09:35,930 --> 02:09:36,990 Dagobert: To try to... 1638 02:09:36,990 --> 02:09:39,170 Dagobert: To help me get free from them basically. 1639 02:09:39,470 --> 02:09:41,450 Dagobert: And that worked because eventually... 1640 02:09:41,450 --> 02:09:43,250 Dagobert: I was able to work again. 1641 02:09:43,390 --> 02:09:44,750 Dagobert: I was able to ship again. 1642 02:09:44,810 --> 02:09:46,430 Dagobert: I was able to find my passion again. 1643 02:09:46,430 --> 02:09:48,190 Dagobert: And this thing about... 1644 02:09:48,190 --> 02:09:49,810 Dagobert: Wanting to have a bit more ambition. 1645 02:09:50,110 --> 02:09:52,890 Dagobert: Was a part of this realization that... 1646 02:09:52,890 --> 02:09:54,890 Dagobert: Yes, that's why I was stuck. 1647 02:09:55,330 --> 02:09:55,850 Dagobert: Also... 1648 02:09:55,850 --> 02:09:57,790 Dagobert: I was afraid of that. 1649 02:09:57,870 --> 02:10:00,610 Dagobert: I was afraid of myself basically. 1650 02:10:00,890 --> 02:10:02,250 Dagobert: And so that was... 1651 02:10:02,250 --> 02:10:03,930 Dagobert: That was useful for me to do that. 1652 02:10:04,030 --> 02:10:06,450 Dagobert: So now I wouldn't say... 1653 02:10:06,450 --> 02:10:09,470 Dagobert: I do two hours of introspection a day right now. 1654 02:10:09,530 --> 02:10:11,730 Dagobert: Also because my girlfriend just came in. 1655 02:10:12,050 --> 02:10:13,190 Dagobert: For the past week. 1656 02:10:13,270 --> 02:10:15,250 Dagobert: So I guess I have less time for introspection. 1657 02:10:16,070 --> 02:10:16,510 Dagobert: But... 1658 02:10:16,510 --> 02:10:18,390 Dagobert: Because we don't live together full time. 1659 02:10:18,890 --> 02:10:21,590 Dagobert: So when I was alone, I was definitely doing it. 1660 02:10:21,710 --> 02:10:23,490 Dagobert: But now that she's here, it's more challenging. 1661 02:10:24,530 --> 02:10:24,710 Dagobert: So... 1662 02:10:25,230 --> 02:10:26,310 Dagobert: I'm going to see how it goes. 1663 02:10:27,010 --> 02:10:29,870 Dagobert: It's good for me to not get lost in my thoughts. 1664 02:10:30,630 --> 02:10:31,310 Dagobert: Too much. 1665 02:10:31,370 --> 02:10:33,270 Dagobert: I know it's weird because you're basically thinking. 1666 02:10:34,410 --> 02:10:35,290 Dagobert: And introspecting. 1667 02:10:35,690 --> 02:10:36,570 Dagobert: But it's not thinking. 1668 02:10:37,490 --> 02:10:38,730 Dagobert: It's like analyzing. 1669 02:10:39,590 --> 02:10:41,150 Dagobert: To try to take a step back. 1670 02:10:41,590 --> 02:10:43,130 Dagobert: From the fears and the thoughts. 1671 02:10:43,750 --> 02:10:45,790 Nesters: It's like there's an observer. 1672 02:10:46,570 --> 02:10:47,210 Nesters: Of your thoughts. 1673 02:10:48,750 --> 02:10:51,170 Nesters: That's something Eckhart Tolle writes about. 1674 02:10:52,170 --> 02:10:54,490 Nesters: I mean wrote a couple books about it. 1675 02:10:55,150 --> 02:10:55,690 Dagobert: Yeah. 1676 02:10:55,690 --> 02:10:55,950 Dagobert: Exactly. 1677 02:10:57,250 --> 02:10:57,510 Nesters: Yeah. 1678 02:10:58,190 --> 02:11:00,470 Nesters: I've actually read a lot of that literature. 1679 02:11:01,150 --> 02:11:03,290 Nesters: I've gone through that quite a lot too. 1680 02:11:03,430 --> 02:11:04,930 Nesters: I wouldn't say I know all the answers. 1681 02:11:05,090 --> 02:11:05,970 Nesters: From myself as well. 1682 02:11:06,370 --> 02:11:08,050 Nesters: I can identify though. 1683 02:11:08,130 --> 02:11:09,550 Nesters: Doing the same things you have. 1684 02:11:09,550 --> 02:11:11,110 Nesters: Not shipping more. 1685 02:11:11,210 --> 02:11:12,250 Nesters: Even though I used to. 1686 02:11:12,370 --> 02:11:14,870 Nesters: I also started early with this tech stuff. 1687 02:11:14,950 --> 02:11:16,010 Nesters: Maybe like 13. 1688 02:11:16,150 --> 02:11:18,690 Nesters: When I was hosting video game servers. 1689 02:11:18,990 --> 02:11:21,170 Nesters: And I was actually very interested. 1690 02:11:21,170 --> 02:11:23,590 Nesters: In building the experiences for other people. 1691 02:11:23,610 --> 02:11:24,430 Nesters: Only multiplayer. 1692 02:11:24,570 --> 02:11:25,510 Nesters: I didn't like single player. 1693 02:11:26,410 --> 02:11:29,070 Nesters: So I liked that whole community thing. 1694 02:11:29,550 --> 02:11:29,930 Nesters: Etc. 1695 02:11:30,150 --> 02:11:32,150 Nesters: And I was doing that. 1696 02:11:32,570 --> 02:11:34,490 Nesters: But at some point I just stopped. 1697 02:11:35,990 --> 02:11:37,790 Nesters: I was building. 1698 02:11:37,890 --> 02:11:39,290 Nesters: I wasn't even doing that quite well. 1699 02:11:39,390 --> 02:11:41,490 Nesters: I had some successful projects in that sense. 1700 02:11:41,690 --> 02:11:43,550 Nesters: There was always tens of people. 1701 02:11:43,550 --> 02:11:44,030 Nesters: For example. 1702 02:11:44,030 --> 02:11:46,510 Nesters: Playing for some of the projects. 1703 02:11:47,210 --> 02:11:47,910 Nesters: At least. 1704 02:11:48,230 --> 02:11:50,310 Nesters: I was still in school as a teenager. 1705 02:11:50,510 --> 02:11:51,890 Nesters: 15-16 years old. 1706 02:11:52,730 --> 02:11:54,050 Nesters: And I guess part of it was. 1707 02:11:54,250 --> 02:11:56,330 Nesters: The school later in gymnasium. 1708 02:11:56,490 --> 02:11:57,430 Nesters: And university years. 1709 02:11:58,710 --> 02:11:59,950 Nesters: I went there. 1710 02:12:00,050 --> 02:12:02,430 Nesters: I went for computer science. 1711 02:12:02,430 --> 02:12:04,290 Nesters: And I was not really learning much there. 1712 02:12:04,590 --> 02:12:05,510 Nesters: So it got kind of... 1713 02:12:06,090 --> 02:12:08,790 Nesters: The depressive part actually came together with that. 1714 02:12:08,930 --> 02:12:09,150 Nesters: I think. 1715 02:12:09,210 --> 02:12:11,310 Nesters: And I kind of dropped a lot of the side projects. 1716 02:12:11,890 --> 02:12:12,650 Nesters: At the same time. 1717 02:12:13,330 --> 02:12:14,870 Nesters: Instead of even building those things. 1718 02:12:14,990 --> 02:12:17,030 Nesters: Maybe I played more without building much. 1719 02:12:17,090 --> 02:12:19,150 Nesters: Or I didn't ship even if I built something. 1720 02:12:19,990 --> 02:12:21,750 Nesters: I think there was like a period. 1721 02:12:21,950 --> 02:12:23,810 Nesters: And later now I still acknowledge that. 1722 02:12:24,110 --> 02:12:26,410 Nesters: Maybe I don't ship much as I mentioned before. 1723 02:12:26,470 --> 02:12:27,610 Nesters: Even with the yap thing. 1724 02:12:27,730 --> 02:12:29,250 Nesters: When I start investing more. 1725 02:12:29,250 --> 02:12:31,610 Nesters: I kind of get that addictive sense. 1726 02:12:31,830 --> 02:12:33,670 Nesters: That I maybe don't ship those things. 1727 02:12:33,730 --> 02:12:35,770 Nesters: I sometimes feel like shipping just for myself. 1728 02:12:35,770 --> 02:12:37,570 Nesters: Is sometimes because I feel like. 1729 02:12:37,670 --> 02:12:39,130 Nesters: I'll just start investing too much time. 1730 02:12:39,250 --> 02:12:41,690 Nesters: But it takes away from the other things. 1731 02:12:41,770 --> 02:12:42,710 Nesters: I should be caring about. 1732 02:12:42,790 --> 02:12:43,810 Nesters: The kids, etc. 1733 02:12:43,910 --> 02:12:46,930 Nesters: And I kind of don't want to. 1734 02:12:47,110 --> 02:12:48,270 Nesters: Go all in on that. 1735 02:12:48,790 --> 02:12:51,170 Nesters: Maybe I hold myself back a little bit that way. 1736 02:12:53,130 --> 02:12:53,450 Dagobert: Yeah, I see. 1737 02:12:53,630 --> 02:12:53,890 Dagobert: I see. 1738 02:12:54,890 --> 02:12:55,770 Dagobert: It's hard to say. 1739 02:12:55,770 --> 02:12:56,930 Dagobert: It's hard to say but I think. 1740 02:12:57,470 --> 02:12:58,790 Dagobert: It's interesting if you. 1741 02:12:59,890 --> 02:13:01,430 Dagobert: I think it's just fear all the time. 1742 02:13:01,690 --> 02:13:03,730 Dagobert: And it can be unconscious usually. 1743 02:13:03,990 --> 02:13:04,830 Dagobert: You don't realize. 1744 02:13:05,830 --> 02:13:07,630 Dagobert: You lose something you had. 1745 02:13:07,810 --> 02:13:09,270 Dagobert: When you were younger. 1746 02:13:09,450 --> 02:13:11,390 Dagobert: And there's something spontaneous that you had. 1747 02:13:12,130 --> 02:13:12,710 Dagobert: It's normal. 1748 02:13:13,030 --> 02:13:14,370 Dagobert: Because when you're young you're naive. 1749 02:13:14,530 --> 02:13:15,610 Dagobert: So it's normal to be spontaneous. 1750 02:13:16,370 --> 02:13:18,590 Dagobert: Then how do you kind of recapture that. 1751 02:13:19,130 --> 02:13:20,270 Dagobert: Without being naive. 1752 02:13:20,810 --> 02:13:22,210 Dagobert: Knowing that you can fail. 1753 02:13:22,210 --> 02:13:23,930 Dagobert: Knowing that you can get hurt. 1754 02:13:24,510 --> 02:13:25,510 Dagobert: And still, okay. 1755 02:13:25,530 --> 02:13:27,830 Dagobert: How do you go there now that you know. 1756 02:13:28,270 --> 02:13:29,410 Dagobert: That you can get hurt. 1757 02:13:30,310 --> 02:13:31,910 Nesters: Yeah, and another thing is. 1758 02:13:32,090 --> 02:13:33,970 Nesters: Some of those projects I could still launch. 1759 02:13:34,150 --> 02:13:36,450 Nesters: In a similar thing that I even did in teenage years. 1760 02:13:36,570 --> 02:13:38,550 Nesters: Which I could actually launch similar things. 1761 02:13:38,810 --> 02:13:39,930 Nesters: For video games. 1762 02:13:40,070 --> 02:13:42,850 Nesters: The GTA V has multiplayer servers. 1763 02:13:42,950 --> 02:13:44,050 Nesters: Some of them do really well. 1764 02:13:44,330 --> 02:13:45,610 Nesters: There's GTA VI coming. 1765 02:13:45,930 --> 02:13:47,010 Nesters: And it will have probably similar. 1766 02:13:47,170 --> 02:13:49,250 Nesters: And I still know how to do those things. 1767 02:13:49,250 --> 02:13:50,710 Nesters: And I could develop for that. 1768 02:13:51,390 --> 02:13:52,650 Nesters: Build something on that. 1769 02:13:53,170 --> 02:13:53,670 Nesters: And I'm like. 1770 02:13:53,990 --> 02:13:57,290 Nesters: Do I really want to go down that way. 1771 02:13:57,530 --> 02:13:59,270 Nesters: And completely disconnected. 1772 02:13:59,430 --> 02:14:01,210 Nesters: From what people know me for. 1773 02:14:01,370 --> 02:14:02,810 Nesters: And what I'm doing now as well. 1774 02:14:03,030 --> 02:14:05,570 Nesters: So it's like two different worlds as well. 1775 02:14:06,490 --> 02:14:07,290 Dagobert: It's interesting. 1776 02:14:07,450 --> 02:14:09,050 Dagobert: Because I was a bit trapped. 1777 02:14:09,290 --> 02:14:10,490 Dagobert: In my Twitter persona. 1778 02:14:11,370 --> 02:14:13,550 Dagobert: Because eventually you get known for something. 1779 02:14:14,790 --> 02:14:15,430 Dagobert: So me. 1780 02:14:15,470 --> 02:14:16,610 Dagobert: I was known for memes. 1781 02:14:16,610 --> 02:14:18,490 Dagobert: And talking about the lessons I was learning. 1782 02:14:18,670 --> 02:14:20,370 Dagobert: With my startup for a few years. 1783 02:14:21,230 --> 02:14:22,750 Dagobert: And just changing that is scary. 1784 02:14:22,870 --> 02:14:24,630 Dagobert: Because you're starting from zero again. 1785 02:14:25,090 --> 02:14:26,830 Dagobert: You don't know how people are going to react. 1786 02:14:27,390 --> 02:14:28,130 Dagobert: And even for you. 1787 02:14:28,330 --> 02:14:30,290 Dagobert: Because once you start finding your voice. 1788 02:14:30,650 --> 02:14:33,090 Dagobert: It's hard to change. 1789 02:14:33,250 --> 02:14:35,050 Dagobert: So that's also how we trap ourselves. 1790 02:14:35,230 --> 02:14:35,470 Dagobert: I think. 1791 02:14:35,970 --> 02:14:37,470 Dagobert: And in going the wrong direction. 1792 02:14:37,670 --> 02:14:39,850 Dagobert: For a while it's good to go in one direction. 1793 02:14:40,950 --> 02:14:42,910 Dagobert: And then because you have people. 1794 02:14:43,630 --> 02:14:44,990 Dagobert: Seeing you a certain way. 1795 02:14:44,990 --> 02:14:46,470 Dagobert: And you see yourself a certain way. 1796 02:14:46,550 --> 02:14:49,210 Dagobert: Changing directions becomes more complicated. 1797 02:14:49,510 --> 02:14:49,930 Dagobert: Than it should. 1798 02:14:50,350 --> 02:14:51,410 Dagobert: Instead of just being like. 1799 02:14:51,570 --> 02:14:52,850 Dagobert: I'm tired of this shit. 1800 02:14:52,910 --> 02:14:53,870 Dagobert: I'm going to do something else. 1801 02:14:54,450 --> 02:14:55,730 Dagobert: Now it becomes. 1802 02:14:56,090 --> 02:14:58,550 Dagobert: My identity is to do memes on Twitter. 1803 02:14:58,750 --> 02:14:59,290 Dagobert: I'm not kidding. 1804 02:14:59,430 --> 02:15:00,390 Dagobert: For me that's how it felt. 1805 02:15:00,750 --> 02:15:02,050 Dagobert: I was doing one meme per day. 1806 02:15:02,130 --> 02:15:03,150 Dagobert: For more than one year. 1807 02:15:03,550 --> 02:15:06,030 Dagobert: I was famous for that. 1808 02:15:07,330 --> 02:15:09,550 Dagobert: Not doing that was scary for me. 1809 02:15:09,550 --> 02:15:10,590 Dagobert: And so. 1810 02:15:11,290 --> 02:15:12,630 Dagobert: It's a big thing too. 1811 02:15:12,770 --> 02:15:13,930 Dagobert: How people perceive you. 1812 02:15:14,190 --> 02:15:15,790 Dagobert: Especially when you start building in public. 1813 02:15:15,910 --> 02:15:16,610 Dagobert: Having an audience. 1814 02:15:17,110 --> 02:15:19,410 Dagobert: You can get trapped in that. 1815 02:15:19,590 --> 02:15:20,750 Dagobert: In how people see you. 1816 02:15:21,950 --> 02:15:24,510 Nesters: I think we need to let Stefan. 1817 02:15:24,750 --> 02:15:25,910 Nesters: Ask a question again. 1818 02:15:26,430 --> 02:15:27,910 Nesters: The reason why I'm not. 1819 02:15:28,330 --> 02:15:30,050 Nesters: Talking about our subjects. 1820 02:15:30,250 --> 02:15:31,510 Nesters: I just wanted to. 1821 02:15:31,950 --> 02:15:33,870 Nesters: Finish the thought process. 1822 02:15:34,410 --> 02:15:34,950 Nesters: Stefan. 1823 02:15:34,950 --> 02:15:35,570 Nesters: Yeah. 1824 02:15:38,270 --> 02:15:39,030 Stefan: I guess. 1825 02:15:39,250 --> 02:15:40,630 Stefan: The comment and the question. 1826 02:15:41,050 --> 02:15:42,030 Stefan: Or two comments. 1827 02:15:42,250 --> 02:15:43,470 Stefan: One comment is Nestor. 1828 02:15:43,650 --> 02:15:45,470 Stefan: You mentioned something about. 1829 02:15:46,710 --> 02:15:48,150 Stefan: SEO for vibe coders. 1830 02:15:48,470 --> 02:15:50,950 Stefan: Or LLM SEO kind of stuff. 1831 02:15:51,170 --> 02:15:52,590 Stefan: You are wondering whether or not. 1832 02:15:52,730 --> 02:15:54,730 Stefan: The fad has passed. 1833 02:15:55,430 --> 02:15:57,090 Stefan: I honestly think we are just at the beginning. 1834 02:15:57,450 --> 02:15:58,550 Stefan: I just started a product. 1835 02:15:58,710 --> 02:16:00,250 Stefan: Related to vibe coding. 1836 02:16:00,650 --> 02:16:02,030 Stefan: Fast and builders. 1837 02:16:02,030 --> 02:16:04,470 Stefan: There is so much interest in it. 1838 02:16:05,070 --> 02:16:05,490 Stefan: I think. 1839 02:16:06,150 --> 02:16:07,750 Stefan: This is a new wave. 1840 02:16:08,070 --> 02:16:09,110 Stefan: This is going to unlock. 1841 02:16:09,930 --> 02:16:11,070 Stefan: I think you are very early. 1842 02:16:11,250 --> 02:16:12,330 Stefan: I would encourage you. 1843 02:16:12,630 --> 02:16:13,430 Stefan: If you have the time. 1844 02:16:13,790 --> 02:16:15,930 Stefan: Just go for it. 1845 02:16:16,390 --> 02:16:17,450 Stefan: You will do very well. 1846 02:16:18,890 --> 02:16:21,070 Stefan: I'm looking for an SEO course. 1847 02:16:21,250 --> 02:16:21,690 Stefan: For myself. 1848 02:16:23,270 --> 02:16:24,090 Stefan: I know you. 1849 02:16:24,230 --> 02:16:24,790 Stefan: We have interacted. 1850 02:16:25,350 --> 02:16:26,750 Stefan: There is more trust with you. 1851 02:16:26,750 --> 02:16:29,470 Stefan: I would be more likely. 1852 02:16:29,630 --> 02:16:30,690 Stefan: To buy it from you. 1853 02:16:30,890 --> 02:16:31,930 Stefan: I don't know them. 1854 02:16:32,630 --> 02:16:34,210 Stefan: It is such a big place. 1855 02:16:34,410 --> 02:16:36,150 Stefan: You can carve out your niche. 1856 02:16:36,610 --> 02:16:38,750 Nesters: The thing I didn't mention. 1857 02:16:40,250 --> 02:16:41,050 Nesters: About SEO courses. 1858 02:16:41,490 --> 02:16:42,810 Nesters: I even wanted. 1859 02:16:43,050 --> 02:16:44,490 Nesters: To start working on it. 1860 02:16:45,430 --> 02:16:47,630 Nesters: Then I had another realization. 1861 02:16:47,890 --> 02:16:48,690 Nesters: I kind of stopped. 1862 02:16:49,530 --> 02:16:51,210 Nesters: Looking for schools for my daughter. 1863 02:16:51,450 --> 02:16:52,770 Nesters: I was a bit more distracted. 1864 02:16:53,430 --> 02:16:56,050 Nesters: I actually got 20 people. 1865 02:16:56,910 --> 02:16:59,350 Nesters: In some kind of focus group. 1866 02:16:59,450 --> 02:17:00,770 Nesters: Research group for the course. 1867 02:17:00,870 --> 02:17:02,550 Nesters: I was planning to test some ideas. 1868 02:17:02,930 --> 02:17:03,250 Nesters: With them. 1869 02:17:03,410 --> 02:17:05,850 Nesters: I got 20 people signed up for that. 1870 02:17:06,530 --> 02:17:07,950 Nesters: I didn't deliver to them. 1871 02:17:08,170 --> 02:17:10,290 Nesters: Then I got the other sidetracks. 1872 02:17:12,210 --> 02:17:13,670 Nesters: I think you also. 1873 02:17:13,950 --> 02:17:15,170 Nesters: Asked to join later. 1874 02:17:15,330 --> 02:17:15,690 Nesters: After that. 1875 02:17:16,770 --> 02:17:19,630 Nesters: I had 19 or 20 people. 1876 02:17:19,890 --> 02:17:21,250 Nesters: Ask about that. 1877 02:17:21,350 --> 02:17:22,030 Nesters: They were interested. 1878 02:17:22,610 --> 02:17:24,330 Nesters: In learning from that. 1879 02:17:24,330 --> 02:17:26,610 Nesters: I just didn't go through with that. 1880 02:17:26,830 --> 02:17:28,230 Nesters: I completely agree. 1881 02:17:28,350 --> 02:17:30,470 Nesters: We are probably very early on that idea. 1882 02:17:30,590 --> 02:17:32,110 Nesters: That's why I'm feeling like. 1883 02:17:32,210 --> 02:17:33,250 Nesters: I'm not going to miss the wave. 1884 02:17:33,370 --> 02:17:35,570 Nesters: Even in the upcoming months. 1885 02:17:35,670 --> 02:17:36,870 Nesters: I still want to launch it. 1886 02:17:39,150 --> 02:17:40,410 Nesters: Hopefully soon enough. 1887 02:17:41,250 --> 02:17:41,890 Nesters: But I agree. 1888 02:17:42,370 --> 02:17:43,330 Nesters: You can continue. 1889 02:17:43,590 --> 02:17:45,050 Nesters: On the question part. 1890 02:17:46,250 --> 02:17:47,890 Stefan: The other thing I wanted to mention. 1891 02:17:48,110 --> 02:17:50,130 Stefan: I really like that you guys are talking about fear. 1892 02:17:50,310 --> 02:17:50,910 Stefan: Holding us back. 1893 02:17:50,910 --> 02:17:52,650 Stefan: On my own journey. 1894 02:17:53,070 --> 02:17:55,070 Stefan: It hasn't been quite as long as either of you. 1895 02:17:55,690 --> 02:17:56,890 Stefan: It's always been fear. 1896 02:17:57,070 --> 02:17:57,790 Stefan: That holds me back. 1897 02:17:58,690 --> 02:17:59,290 Stefan: At the end of the day. 1898 02:18:00,430 --> 02:18:02,270 Stefan: The thing I know I need to do. 1899 02:18:02,850 --> 02:18:04,750 Stefan: When I dive down deep enough. 1900 02:18:04,810 --> 02:18:05,450 Stefan: It's always fear. 1901 02:18:06,250 --> 02:18:07,550 Stefan: The other thing I've noticed. 1902 02:18:07,750 --> 02:18:10,350 Stefan: If I spend too much time introspecting. 1903 02:18:11,310 --> 02:18:12,910 Stefan: It's a little bit as good. 1904 02:18:13,050 --> 02:18:14,290 Stefan: To understand it's fear. 1905 02:18:14,790 --> 02:18:15,710 Stefan: But too much is bad. 1906 02:18:15,850 --> 02:18:18,150 Stefan: The fear becomes overblown. 1907 02:18:18,150 --> 02:18:19,430 Stefan: At least for me. 1908 02:18:19,470 --> 02:18:20,530 Stefan: I don't know how it works for you guys. 1909 02:18:21,910 --> 02:18:23,370 Stefan: The antidote I found. 1910 02:18:23,610 --> 02:18:25,230 Stefan: To conquering that fear. 1911 02:18:25,470 --> 02:18:26,790 Stefan: And not letting it take over me. 1912 02:18:27,050 --> 02:18:28,750 Stefan: Is to take quick action. 1913 02:18:30,670 --> 02:18:33,170 Stefan: The more I dwell on it. 1914 02:18:33,330 --> 02:18:34,790 Stefan: The harder it becomes. 1915 02:18:34,790 --> 02:18:35,790 Stefan: To take that first step. 1916 02:18:35,970 --> 02:18:37,810 Stefan: And then I just never do anything. 1917 02:18:38,550 --> 02:18:40,490 Stefan: I found quick action helps me. 1918 02:18:41,030 --> 02:18:41,370 Stefan: And Dago. 1919 02:18:41,450 --> 02:18:42,730 Stefan: The question I had for you. 1920 02:18:43,230 --> 02:18:44,750 Stefan: I wanted to ask from the beginning. 1921 02:18:45,630 --> 02:18:47,870 Stefan: You mentioned a lot of things motivate you. 1922 02:18:48,090 --> 02:18:49,470 Stefan: Like your dwindling runway. 1923 02:18:50,070 --> 02:18:51,930 Stefan: And maybe proving people wrong. 1924 02:18:52,050 --> 02:18:52,610 Stefan: To some extent. 1925 02:18:52,830 --> 02:18:56,170 Stefan: I was wondering if deadlines are a motivator for you. 1926 02:18:56,490 --> 02:18:57,990 Stefan: And if you would be willing to say. 1927 02:18:58,230 --> 02:18:59,770 Stefan: When are you shipping your product? 1928 02:18:59,870 --> 02:19:00,770 Stefan: Do you have a deadline in mind? 1929 02:19:04,230 --> 02:19:05,270 Dagobert: It's interesting. 1930 02:19:05,690 --> 02:19:08,170 Dagobert: Because my problem is. 1931 02:19:09,890 --> 02:19:11,310 Dagobert: Real deadlines do. 1932 02:19:12,150 --> 02:19:14,470 Dagobert: But it's hard to have a real deadline. 1933 02:19:15,290 --> 02:19:16,350 Dagobert: Like for example. 1934 02:19:16,570 --> 02:19:17,370 Dagobert: When I was a freelance. 1935 02:19:17,730 --> 02:19:18,230 Dagobert: I remember. 1936 02:19:18,990 --> 02:19:20,410 Dagobert: Or even when you have a job. 1937 02:19:20,510 --> 02:19:23,050 Dagobert: But I was mostly freelance for most of the time. 1938 02:19:24,350 --> 02:19:25,310 Dagobert: Like clients. 1939 02:19:25,550 --> 02:19:27,910 Dagobert: They have what I used to call fake deadlines. 1940 02:19:28,530 --> 02:19:29,690 Dagobert: Like they are just telling you. 1941 02:19:30,130 --> 02:19:31,670 Dagobert: We really need it for this day. 1942 02:19:31,950 --> 02:19:32,850 Dagobert: But that's not true. 1943 02:19:32,970 --> 02:19:34,690 Dagobert: They just want it for this day. 1944 02:19:35,110 --> 02:19:37,810 Dagobert: But they need it for like 2 months later. 1945 02:19:38,750 --> 02:19:40,030 Dagobert: And I remember. 1946 02:19:40,330 --> 02:19:42,210 Dagobert: I could never get motivated. 1947 02:19:42,210 --> 02:19:43,730 Dagobert: For a fake deadline. 1948 02:19:43,910 --> 02:19:45,650 Dagobert: But if the client told me. 1949 02:19:46,070 --> 02:19:47,590 Dagobert: Tomorrow I have this event. 1950 02:19:48,070 --> 02:19:49,050 Dagobert: If at this event. 1951 02:19:49,230 --> 02:19:50,650 Dagobert: I don't have this website ready. 1952 02:19:50,910 --> 02:19:52,310 Dagobert: I'm going to lose everything. 1953 02:19:53,150 --> 02:19:54,690 Dagobert: Then I will do it with no. 1954 02:19:54,950 --> 02:19:56,830 Dagobert: There is no way I'm not doing it. 1955 02:19:57,730 --> 02:19:58,270 Dagobert: And so. 1956 02:19:59,270 --> 02:20:00,150 Dagobert: That's the thing. 1957 02:20:00,570 --> 02:20:04,070 Dagobert: The only real deadline I have. 1958 02:20:04,130 --> 02:20:04,690 Dagobert: Is my runway. 1959 02:20:05,390 --> 02:20:07,490 Dagobert: But everything else is not a real deadline. 1960 02:20:07,630 --> 02:20:09,090 Dagobert: Everything else is just a preference. 1961 02:20:09,090 --> 02:20:11,090 Dagobert: And it doesn't resonate with me. 1962 02:20:11,250 --> 02:20:12,150 Dagobert: Like I need real shit. 1963 02:20:12,330 --> 02:20:15,450 Dagobert: And it's hard for me to integrate real shit. 1964 02:20:16,010 --> 02:20:17,330 Dagobert: Into my own projects. 1965 02:20:17,590 --> 02:20:19,010 Dagobert: I haven't found a way. 1966 02:20:19,570 --> 02:20:21,190 Dagobert: To add this real deadline. 1967 02:20:21,750 --> 02:20:22,210 Dagobert: Scenario. 1968 02:20:23,090 --> 02:20:23,890 Dagobert: Maybe there is a. 1969 02:20:24,310 --> 02:20:26,830 Dagobert: Maybe people have ideas to solve that. 1970 02:20:28,250 --> 02:20:29,590 Dagobert: Deadlines work for me. 1971 02:20:29,710 --> 02:20:30,270 Dagobert: If it's real. 1972 02:20:31,290 --> 02:20:32,490 Dagobert: If it's just like. 1973 02:20:32,750 --> 02:20:34,210 Dagobert: It's going to be this date. 1974 02:20:34,610 --> 02:20:36,650 Dagobert: I absolutely don't resonate with it. 1975 02:20:36,650 --> 02:20:37,270 Nesters: But you know. 1976 02:20:37,450 --> 02:20:39,470 Nesters: Other people do also have deadlines. 1977 02:20:39,810 --> 02:20:41,970 Nesters: And your product is literally. 1978 02:20:42,390 --> 02:20:43,670 Nesters: Enabling other people. 1979 02:20:43,850 --> 02:20:45,250 Nesters: To launch their products on. 1980 02:20:45,370 --> 02:20:47,810 Nesters: And hopefully have better marketing success. 1981 02:20:48,030 --> 02:20:49,550 Nesters: Than the other avenues. 1982 02:20:50,230 --> 02:20:51,770 Nesters: So in a way your product. 1983 02:20:52,670 --> 02:20:53,290 Nesters: Like it doesn't. 1984 02:20:53,450 --> 02:20:54,610 Nesters: You might not have a deadline. 1985 02:20:54,730 --> 02:20:56,990 Nesters: But other people do have a deadline. 1986 02:20:57,130 --> 02:20:58,850 Nesters: They also might be running out of runway. 1987 02:20:59,050 --> 02:21:01,050 Nesters: They also feel like they finally need. 1988 02:21:01,110 --> 02:21:02,370 Nesters: To launch their first product. 1989 02:21:02,370 --> 02:21:04,610 Nesters: And they need your platform. 1990 02:21:04,850 --> 02:21:05,450 Nesters: To do it. 1991 02:21:06,110 --> 02:21:07,170 Nesters: So in a way. 1992 02:21:07,350 --> 02:21:09,910 Nesters: Yes you can be selfish. 1993 02:21:10,170 --> 02:21:12,030 Nesters: And say I don't have deadlines. 1994 02:21:12,130 --> 02:21:13,510 Nesters: I also do that a lot too by the way. 1995 02:21:13,550 --> 02:21:15,490 Nesters: My SEO course could help someone. 1996 02:21:15,710 --> 02:21:17,670 Nesters: But I'm selfish and I'm not launching it. 1997 02:21:17,750 --> 02:21:18,890 Nesters: I'm not helping those people. 1998 02:21:20,250 --> 02:21:21,890 Nesters: I'm not taking a moral high ground. 1999 02:21:22,090 --> 02:21:24,350 Nesters: I'm actually technically also introspectively. 2000 02:21:25,350 --> 02:21:25,730 Nesters: There are. 2001 02:21:25,890 --> 02:21:27,810 Nesters: The deadlines exist for other people. 2002 02:21:28,350 --> 02:21:30,690 Nesters: And they also need to launch something. 2003 02:21:30,690 --> 02:21:32,690 Nesters: And your platform is the vehicle. 2004 02:21:33,790 --> 02:21:35,350 Nesters: On which they will launch those products. 2005 02:21:35,670 --> 02:21:36,930 Nesters: So in that sense. 2006 02:21:37,130 --> 02:21:38,350 Nesters: Like if you empathize. 2007 02:21:38,730 --> 02:21:40,330 Nesters: With what people really need. 2008 02:21:40,550 --> 02:21:42,750 Nesters: And often for example it's marketing platform. 2009 02:21:43,210 --> 02:21:44,890 Nesters: And a good marketing platform. 2010 02:21:45,670 --> 02:21:46,590 Nesters: Then you could. 2011 02:21:47,070 --> 02:21:48,330 Nesters: Offer that to people. 2012 02:21:48,730 --> 02:21:50,370 Nesters: And that can be your deadline. 2013 02:21:50,510 --> 02:21:52,050 Nesters: Emphasizing with people that way. 2014 02:21:52,690 --> 02:21:53,330 Dagobert: That's a very. 2015 02:21:53,630 --> 02:21:55,530 Dagobert: You know that's working when you say that. 2016 02:21:55,890 --> 02:21:58,210 Dagobert: I wish people bullied me more to be like. 2017 02:21:58,210 --> 02:21:59,450 Dagobert: I need to launch my product. 2018 02:21:59,550 --> 02:22:01,130 Dagobert: Why don't you launch? 2019 02:22:01,210 --> 02:22:03,450 Nesters: I did leave a reply like that. 2020 02:22:03,450 --> 02:22:05,530 Nesters: It would definitely work. 2021 02:22:05,890 --> 02:22:07,350 Stefan: I need to launch my product. 2022 02:22:09,090 --> 02:22:11,210 Stefan: I need to launch my product. 2023 02:22:11,690 --> 02:22:12,590 Nesters: I'm pretty sure. 2024 02:22:12,650 --> 02:22:14,170 Nesters: I left a comment like that. 2025 02:22:14,330 --> 02:22:15,630 Nesters: To you in some thread. 2026 02:22:15,810 --> 02:22:16,430 Nesters: I was like yeah. 2027 02:22:17,910 --> 02:22:19,650 Nesters: We need your platform. 2028 02:22:19,950 --> 02:22:20,830 Nesters: To launch your products. 2029 02:22:21,150 --> 02:22:22,410 Nesters: I think you even liked it. 2030 02:22:24,110 --> 02:22:25,770 Nesters: Obviously take it jokingly. 2031 02:22:25,770 --> 02:22:28,050 Nesters: In Twitter you might take everything jokingly. 2032 02:22:28,230 --> 02:22:29,130 Nesters: But I meant it. 2033 02:22:29,250 --> 02:22:30,410 Nesters: I meant it then as well. 2034 02:22:31,190 --> 02:22:32,530 Nesters: We as people. 2035 02:22:32,730 --> 02:22:34,510 Nesters: And the smallpix community members as well. 2036 02:22:34,630 --> 02:22:35,590 Nesters: They need your platform. 2037 02:22:37,750 --> 02:22:38,130 Dagobert: That's cool. 2038 02:22:38,230 --> 02:22:38,910 Dagobert: I will hide that. 2039 02:22:39,210 --> 02:22:40,930 Dagobert: And I will watch it every day. 2040 02:22:41,590 --> 02:22:42,650 Dagobert: I think that will help me a lot. 2041 02:22:44,670 --> 02:22:45,110 Nesters: Yeah. 2042 02:22:45,310 --> 02:22:48,670 Nesters: I really hope we can also inspire you obviously. 2043 02:22:49,830 --> 02:22:50,430 Nesters: You know like. 2044 02:22:50,570 --> 02:22:52,150 Nesters: Other people need you as well. 2045 02:22:52,150 --> 02:22:54,450 Nesters: You have the platform to launch the product. 2046 02:22:54,870 --> 02:22:56,530 Nesters: Which is your own following. 2047 02:22:56,810 --> 02:22:58,630 Nesters: You are literally launching the platform. 2048 02:22:58,810 --> 02:23:00,990 Nesters: To help other people launch their products. 2049 02:23:01,330 --> 02:23:02,390 Nesters: So you have the platform. 2050 02:23:02,390 --> 02:23:04,330 Dagobert: It's funny that it's called launch day. 2051 02:23:04,470 --> 02:23:05,470 Dagobert: And I never launched it. 2052 02:23:05,730 --> 02:23:06,910 Nesters: It's a little bit ironic. 2053 02:23:09,670 --> 02:23:11,510 Dagobert: Somebody said that the other day on Twitter. 2054 02:23:11,650 --> 02:23:12,610 Dagobert: I was like oh my god. 2055 02:23:12,670 --> 02:23:13,330 Dagobert: This is so true. 2056 02:23:13,750 --> 02:23:14,490 Dagobert: This is so funny. 2057 02:23:16,730 --> 02:23:18,750 Nesters: Obviously we are getting pretty late. 2058 02:23:18,850 --> 02:23:20,190 Nesters: And I don't know how much time you have. 2059 02:23:21,010 --> 02:23:21,490 Nesters: Nothing. 2060 02:23:22,030 --> 02:23:22,890 Nesters: I actually want to leave. 2061 02:23:23,050 --> 02:23:25,290 Nesters: I get it obviously. 2062 02:23:25,470 --> 02:23:27,690 Nesters: Because I am also starting to get tired. 2063 02:23:27,930 --> 02:23:30,370 Nesters: So the vibe gets lost a bit. 2064 02:23:30,490 --> 02:23:30,990 Nesters: But hey. 2065 02:23:31,190 --> 02:23:33,090 Nesters: At the end we actually get something. 2066 02:23:33,330 --> 02:23:36,550 Nesters: Hopefully that will help you think about it a little bit differently. 2067 02:23:36,790 --> 02:23:36,950 Nesters: You know. 2068 02:23:37,750 --> 02:23:39,430 Nesters: It's not just your launch day. 2069 02:23:39,670 --> 02:23:42,030 Nesters: It's all of our launch days as well. 2070 02:23:44,190 --> 02:23:44,530 Dagobert: Yeah. 2071 02:23:44,890 --> 02:23:45,610 Dagobert: That's awesome. 2072 02:23:45,610 --> 02:23:46,830 Dagobert: That's interesting. 2073 02:23:46,950 --> 02:23:48,270 Dagobert: This part about selfishness. 2074 02:23:48,910 --> 02:23:51,390 Dagobert: And disconnecting from the impact on other people. 2075 02:23:51,630 --> 02:23:53,770 Dagobert: I was all day talking for one hour. 2076 02:23:53,990 --> 02:23:55,030 Dagobert: About the impact on other people. 2077 02:23:55,210 --> 02:23:57,490 Dagobert: And I forgot the impact that I could have. 2078 02:23:57,870 --> 02:23:58,770 Dagobert: That's very cool. 2079 02:23:58,850 --> 02:23:59,970 Nesters: Because Steve Jobs as well. 2080 02:24:00,230 --> 02:24:01,890 Nesters: Although he was an innovator. 2081 02:24:02,290 --> 02:24:05,030 Nesters: He was not good to his kids. 2082 02:24:05,070 --> 02:24:06,510 Nesters: He didn't really care about them. 2083 02:24:06,630 --> 02:24:07,370 Nesters: As far as I know. 2084 02:24:07,470 --> 02:24:08,430 Nesters: I haven't read all the bio. 2085 02:24:09,290 --> 02:24:10,550 Nesters: But a lot of these. 2086 02:24:10,550 --> 02:24:11,910 Nesters: Elon Musk as well. 2087 02:24:12,310 --> 02:24:14,570 Nesters: I would say he has a really bad relationship. 2088 02:24:15,530 --> 02:24:17,930 Nesters: So when you are focusing on one thing. 2089 02:24:18,150 --> 02:24:19,110 Nesters: In your head. 2090 02:24:19,230 --> 02:24:20,830 Nesters: You kind of stop empathizing. 2091 02:24:20,950 --> 02:24:22,770 Nesters: With the very human things. 2092 02:24:23,170 --> 02:24:24,030 Nesters: In your own life. 2093 02:24:24,350 --> 02:24:25,650 Nesters: And for your platform. 2094 02:24:25,870 --> 02:24:28,290 Nesters: It's the other people who want to launch on it. 2095 02:24:29,670 --> 02:24:31,090 Nesters: And for Elon. 2096 02:24:31,270 --> 02:24:32,150 Nesters: Or Steve Jobs. 2097 02:24:32,270 --> 02:24:33,090 Nesters: It was his kids. 2098 02:24:33,470 --> 02:24:35,470 Nesters: Not wives. 2099 02:24:35,570 --> 02:24:36,030 Nesters: The girlfriends. 2100 02:24:36,030 --> 02:24:37,410 Nesters: Whatever mothers of his kids. 2101 02:24:37,810 --> 02:24:39,630 Nesters: He doesn't connect to them. 2102 02:24:39,650 --> 02:24:40,950 Nesters: On that human level. 2103 02:24:41,970 --> 02:24:42,890 Nesters: He should. 2104 02:24:43,830 --> 02:24:46,590 Nesters: That's because he chose to compromise that. 2105 02:24:46,850 --> 02:24:48,170 Nesters: For his other vision. 2106 02:24:51,390 --> 02:24:51,950 Stefan: 100%. 2107 02:24:51,950 --> 02:24:53,650 Stefan: Us small accounts. 2108 02:24:53,770 --> 02:24:54,770 Stefan: That are just starting out. 2109 02:24:55,110 --> 02:24:56,450 Stefan: And all these 5 coders. 2110 02:24:56,610 --> 02:24:58,310 Stefan: We need something to get seen. 2111 02:24:58,450 --> 02:24:59,470 Stefan: Because it's really hard on here. 2112 02:25:01,890 --> 02:25:02,930 Dagobert: This is awesome. 2113 02:25:02,930 --> 02:25:05,790 Dagobert: It feels like the result of a 2 hour introspection. 2114 02:25:06,530 --> 02:25:08,190 Dagobert: When I have some nice post-its. 2115 02:25:08,670 --> 02:25:10,130 Dagobert: And I understand myself better. 2116 02:25:10,710 --> 02:25:13,190 Nesters: I'll have a transcript ready tonight. 2117 02:25:13,610 --> 02:25:14,830 Nesters: And there will be a recording. 2118 02:25:15,770 --> 02:25:17,290 Nesters: On the weekly app. 2119 02:25:17,510 --> 02:25:18,090 Nesters: As well. 2120 02:25:18,230 --> 02:25:19,710 Nesters: So you can listen back to some. 2121 02:25:20,710 --> 02:25:21,830 Nesters: Maybe that helps as well. 2122 02:25:22,870 --> 02:25:24,190 Nesters: Especially the transcript might help. 2123 02:25:25,910 --> 02:25:26,070 Dagobert: Yeah. 2124 02:25:27,270 --> 02:25:28,010 Dagobert: Cool man. 2125 02:25:28,030 --> 02:25:28,570 Dagobert: That was awesome. 2126 02:25:28,650 --> 02:25:29,670 Dagobert: Thanks for having me. 2127 02:25:29,670 --> 02:25:31,470 Dagobert: And now I will maybe. 2128 02:25:31,630 --> 02:25:32,850 Dagobert: Go to small bets sometimes. 2129 02:25:33,070 --> 02:25:35,210 Dagobert: I see some people have sent some links. 2130 02:25:35,390 --> 02:25:36,270 Dagobert: I'm scared to click. 2131 02:25:36,530 --> 02:25:39,370 Nesters: That's the dream that Prince had about you. 2132 02:25:40,430 --> 02:25:41,250 Dagobert: Oh well. 2133 02:25:44,170 --> 02:25:44,690 Nesters: Anyway. 2134 02:25:44,870 --> 02:25:45,850 Nesters: Thank you for joining. 2135 02:25:47,510 --> 02:25:48,550 Nesters: Thanks everyone. 2136 02:25:49,450 --> 02:25:49,970 Nesters: Bye. 2137 02:25:50,170 --> 02:25:51,930 Nesters: And I guess we can wrap it up. 2138 02:25:52,670 --> 02:25:53,850 Nesters: Sego has to go. 2139 02:25:53,990 --> 02:25:55,330 Nesters: And I'm also getting more tired. 2140 02:25:55,330 --> 02:25:57,370 Nesters: Thank you everyone for joining. 2141 02:25:57,590 --> 02:25:59,410 Nesters: And listening and asking all the questions. 2142 02:25:59,810 --> 02:26:01,570 Nesters: And hopefully made an impact. 2143 02:26:02,290 --> 02:26:03,830 Nesters: On whoever was listening. 2144 02:26:03,990 --> 02:26:04,690 Nesters: And also Dago. 2145 02:26:04,930 --> 02:26:06,690 Nesters: Because we really need his platform. 2146 02:26:07,450 --> 02:26:08,370 Nesters: No pressure. 2147 02:26:08,810 --> 02:26:09,910 Nesters: Just need your platform. 2148 02:26:10,670 --> 02:26:11,550 Dagobert: I need that. 2149 02:26:12,050 --> 02:26:12,670 Dagobert: It's not pressure. 2150 02:26:13,190 --> 02:26:14,770 Dagobert: It's purpose actually. 2151 02:26:15,210 --> 02:26:15,490 Nesters: Yeah. 2152 02:26:17,070 --> 02:26:19,130 Nesters: I hope to see you in small bets by the way. 2153 02:26:19,710 --> 02:26:21,250 Nesters: It was really nice to talk to you. 2154 02:26:23,090 --> 02:26:23,810 Dagobert: Okay, bye. 2155 02:26:24,110 --> 02:26:24,210 Nesters: Bye. 2156 02:26:25,390 --> 02:26:26,350 Nesters: Have a good night. 2157 02:26:27,410 --> 02:26:27,850 Nesters: Alright. 2158 02:26:28,930 --> 02:26:30,170 Nesters: Let's wrap it up I guess. 2159 02:26:30,290 --> 02:26:32,290 Nesters: Unless anyone still wants to yap. 2160 02:26:32,790 --> 02:26:34,050 Nesters: Vlad, do you have any yapping? 2161 02:26:37,560 --> 02:26:38,980 Vlad: Well, I have too much yapping. 2162 02:26:39,460 --> 02:26:41,040 Vlad: But yeah, this was great. 2163 02:26:42,400 --> 02:26:43,660 Vlad: I really enjoyed it. 2164 02:26:43,780 --> 02:26:46,280 Vlad: Especially the progression of the conversation. 2165 02:26:46,400 --> 02:26:48,040 Vlad: I think it ended perfectly. 2166 02:26:48,220 --> 02:26:49,660 Vlad: And we should not prolong it. 2167 02:26:49,820 --> 02:26:51,140 Nesters: Yeah, I think so too as well. 2168 02:26:51,140 --> 02:26:53,240 Nesters: I was thinking about it. 2169 02:26:53,260 --> 02:26:54,380 Nesters: I can still yap a couple minutes. 2170 02:26:54,580 --> 02:27:00,540 Nesters: But honestly, what it ended on for Dago I think is the most impactful part of this conversation. 2171 02:27:01,700 --> 02:27:03,200 Nesters: So, good night everyone. 2172 02:27:03,420 --> 02:27:04,400 Nesters: Thank you for your questions. 2173 02:27:05,080 --> 02:27:08,240 Nesters: I'll probably try to let you speak sooner next time. 2174 02:27:08,520 --> 02:27:08,780 Nesters: Maybe. 2175 02:27:09,400 --> 02:27:12,460 Nesters: I just wanted to let also our conversation flow. 2176 02:27:12,580 --> 02:27:17,780 Nesters: Because I felt like maybe it gets the outcome a little bit smoother. 2177 02:27:17,960 --> 02:27:22,800 Nesters: Because I know that he had to say things and Daniel had to say things. 2178 02:27:22,920 --> 02:27:29,240 Nesters: And then we could try to move on from that to the next point. 2179 02:27:30,500 --> 02:27:30,960 Nesters: So yeah. 2180 02:27:31,260 --> 02:27:33,640 Nesters: I think we delivered on that though. 2181 02:27:34,140 --> 02:27:35,680 Nesters: So, good night everyone.