pydub1 00:00:30,010 --> 00:00:31,530 Nevo: Hey, hey, hey. 2 00:00:33,670 --> 00:00:34,230 Daniel: Hello. 3 00:00:35,750 --> 00:00:37,250 Daniel: Nestor, how are you? 4 00:00:38,210 --> 00:00:39,390 Nesters: I'm all right. 5 00:00:39,590 --> 00:00:43,570 Nesters: I'm again trying to choose one of the 12 input devices. 6 00:00:44,030 --> 00:00:44,570 Nesters: Yeah, same. 7 00:00:45,790 --> 00:00:47,810 Nesters: I just want... 8 00:00:47,810 --> 00:00:50,230 Nesters: You guys don't use the phone for this? 9 00:00:51,070 --> 00:00:52,490 Nesters: No, we're using the computer. 10 00:00:53,770 --> 00:00:54,510 Nesters: We're professionals. 11 00:00:55,450 --> 00:00:56,310 Nesters: That way, yeah. 12 00:00:56,870 --> 00:00:58,350 Nesters: And also the mic, obviously. 13 00:01:00,670 --> 00:01:01,550 Nesters: Okay, so... 14 00:01:02,230 --> 00:01:07,730 Nesters: I guess we can slowly get into the discussion, although we're probably still waiting for some more people to join. 15 00:01:08,970 --> 00:01:10,690 Daniel: Yeah, well, they're lost. 16 00:01:10,790 --> 00:01:12,350 Nesters: If they're late, we can start. 17 00:01:13,610 --> 00:01:16,790 Nesters: Yeah, they're going to lose out on the greatest gap. 18 00:01:18,410 --> 00:01:23,390 Nesters: The greatest gap until the next one, which might end up being... 19 00:01:23,390 --> 00:01:25,210 Nesters: I don't know what to expect out of that one. 20 00:01:25,950 --> 00:01:27,770 Nesters: All right, so... 21 00:01:28,450 --> 00:01:30,590 Nesters: I guess nice to meet you, Nevo. 22 00:01:30,970 --> 00:01:33,510 Nesters: I actually don't even know how to pronounce your name. 23 00:01:34,870 --> 00:01:38,390 Nevo: I mean, most people call me Nevo, but in my country, my name is Nevo. 24 00:01:38,690 --> 00:01:39,830 Nevo: But it's easier to say. 25 00:01:39,890 --> 00:01:41,450 Nesters: Yeah, that's the... Okay, so Nevo. 26 00:01:42,070 --> 00:01:43,030 Nesters: Nevo, whatever. 27 00:01:45,450 --> 00:01:51,550 Nesters: Basically, let's first, I guess, because sometimes people are interested in what the project is, not maybe... 28 00:01:51,550 --> 00:01:55,670 Nesters: So let's introduce your main project, which is the posters, I guess. 29 00:01:55,670 --> 00:01:58,590 Nesters: Again, I don't know how you pronounce it. 30 00:01:58,970 --> 00:01:59,150 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, all right. 31 00:01:59,790 --> 00:02:03,170 Nesters: Yeah, so what is your product? 32 00:02:03,550 --> 00:02:09,250 Nesters: And actually, what maybe differentiates it from the market, if there's any differentiating factor? 33 00:02:09,550 --> 00:02:10,510 Nesters: Yeah, it's open source. 34 00:02:10,890 --> 00:02:12,030 Nesters: The main differentiator. 35 00:02:14,090 --> 00:02:14,970 Nesters: Okay, yeah. 36 00:02:15,850 --> 00:02:18,910 Nevo: But, you know, this is like the biggest differentiator, and we'll talk about this. 37 00:02:18,970 --> 00:02:25,130 Nevo: I think it's kind of like the blue ocean of all these Red Ocean products, because you go into a little bit of a different direction. 38 00:02:25,130 --> 00:02:29,110 Nevo: But it also has some cool features that I think other competitors don't have. 39 00:02:29,950 --> 00:02:35,190 Nevo: But I don't think I would be able to bring it to where it is without open source. 40 00:02:35,410 --> 00:02:40,390 Nesters: Yeah, for the people who maybe don't know the context, like what is the actual project? 41 00:02:40,770 --> 00:02:41,850 Nesters: You know, what is your product? 42 00:02:42,690 --> 00:02:43,170 Nevo: Yeah, sure. 43 00:02:43,310 --> 00:02:46,050 Nevo: So posters is a social media scheduling tool. 44 00:02:46,670 --> 00:02:50,350 Nevo: A lot of people using, I think, all this like buffer, HootSuite. 45 00:02:51,590 --> 00:02:53,510 Nevo: On X, many people use Typefully. 46 00:02:54,250 --> 00:02:55,990 Nevo: So there's like a lot of tools. 47 00:02:56,430 --> 00:03:02,950 Nevo: It's like a super, super, super saturated market, basically. 48 00:03:03,370 --> 00:03:04,610 Nevo: There are like thousands of tools. 49 00:03:06,230 --> 00:03:09,190 Nevo: So yeah, it allows you to schedule all your social media posts. 50 00:03:09,290 --> 00:03:14,050 Nevo: I think, I don't want to say just like that, because I guess somebody did it also. 51 00:03:14,170 --> 00:03:15,450 Nevo: It's just not like so public. 52 00:03:15,690 --> 00:03:20,330 Nevo: But posters is the social media with the biggest amount of social media that you can schedule posts to. 53 00:03:20,390 --> 00:03:23,450 Nevo: I've never seen any other one with that amount of channels. 54 00:03:23,450 --> 00:03:37,050 Nesters: Yeah, regarding that, we have actually often questions in small biz community, like people asking like, what should I use for scheduling on X or even LinkedIn, maybe Blue Sky in the mix. 55 00:03:37,370 --> 00:03:40,930 Nesters: So, and then they mentioned like, let's say buffer, they mentioned HypeFury. 56 00:03:41,750 --> 00:03:45,110 Nesters: Is your tool actually enough for them? 57 00:03:45,330 --> 00:03:47,030 Nesters: In general, like for the average user? 58 00:03:47,150 --> 00:03:48,310 Nesters: And is it maybe even better? 59 00:03:48,830 --> 00:03:51,010 Nesters: Or like, how would you position that? 60 00:03:51,010 --> 00:03:56,430 Nesters: I mean, all of them, all of the tools are basically the same, right? 61 00:03:56,470 --> 00:03:58,970 Nevo: Like, they allow you to schedule posts for social media. 62 00:03:59,210 --> 00:03:59,990 Nevo: That's the basics. 63 00:04:00,310 --> 00:04:08,430 Nevo: So I guess if a tool doesn't provide this option, then, you know, it's not fulfilling its main thing. 64 00:04:08,790 --> 00:04:12,890 Nevo: Except for that, there's some extra features, you know, things that allow you to get more engagement. 65 00:04:13,110 --> 00:04:15,030 Nevo: A lot of them exist in many other tools. 66 00:04:15,530 --> 00:04:19,450 Nevo: For example, if your posts get to a certain amount of like, it will repost it. 67 00:04:19,450 --> 00:04:24,530 Nevo: If your posts get to a certain amount of like, add another like comment to it. 68 00:04:25,510 --> 00:04:33,230 Nevo: When you post your post, if you have other accounts in the system, they can automatically repost your post, basically. 69 00:04:33,950 --> 00:04:35,450 Nevo: So like a lot more engagement tool. 70 00:04:35,990 --> 00:04:40,830 Nevo: And then there's like all this AI stuff, allow you to easily generate content for posts that you're writing. 71 00:04:41,370 --> 00:04:47,170 Nevo: And you have auto posting, so you can connect it to an RSS feed. 72 00:04:47,290 --> 00:04:51,890 Nevo: So every time there is something new in the RSS, it can, you know, post it to your timeline. 73 00:04:52,430 --> 00:05:00,210 Nevo: There's like a lot of things that should make it easier to post, but I think most of them are doing the same thing, basically. 74 00:05:00,830 --> 00:05:04,030 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I believe most of them do the same thing, obviously. 75 00:05:04,670 --> 00:05:15,570 Nesters: I guess, so you, I mean, I would say your tool probably benefits from the fact that there's actually more social networks and other software you can connect to it, right? 76 00:05:15,630 --> 00:05:19,490 Nesters: Because you can even connect Discord, Slack, on top of it. 77 00:05:19,910 --> 00:05:21,830 Nesters: And Reddit, TikTok. 78 00:05:22,190 --> 00:05:22,850 Nesters: What is it? 79 00:05:23,010 --> 00:05:25,270 Nesters: What's the TikTok engagement for the tool? 80 00:05:26,490 --> 00:05:26,970 Nesters: TikTok? 81 00:05:27,210 --> 00:05:28,990 Nevo: No, TikTok is just like normal. 82 00:05:29,190 --> 00:05:31,130 Nevo: Like you can just schedule videos and stuff. 83 00:05:31,690 --> 00:05:41,510 Nevo: It's just that you can also have some other, like there are some things that I think almost no social media have, social media scheduler, that is like all the Web3 stuff. 84 00:05:41,870 --> 00:05:48,950 Nevo: So I have Web3 platforms, like Warpcast, Nostra and stuff like that. 85 00:05:49,430 --> 00:05:50,790 Nevo: So this is interesting. 86 00:05:52,690 --> 00:05:57,610 Nevo: So this is like, I think there is no scheduling tool for Web3 so far. 87 00:05:58,210 --> 00:06:00,070 Nevo: Or just like a very specialized one. 88 00:06:00,650 --> 00:06:01,470 Nesters: But it's also interesting. 89 00:06:02,150 --> 00:06:05,250 Nesters: Yeah, because I was looking a little bit at your marketing material. 90 00:06:05,390 --> 00:06:08,430 Nesters: I mean, the landing page as well, which looks pretty damn neat. 91 00:06:08,710 --> 00:06:12,110 Nesters: I know that you used an agency to develop that, but it looks really nice. 92 00:06:12,110 --> 00:06:30,070 Nesters: And I kind of feel your website, I don't know, from you explaining your product, I kind of feel like it just lacks a little bit of the marketing push in terms of just like, because as it sounds and as it looks, I feel like it actually replaces a lot of the tools that exist. 93 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:36,010 Nesters: And it actually brings more of a complete package in some regards, I believe, for the average person. 94 00:06:36,130 --> 00:06:39,550 Nesters: So I think your tool might even be like the better alternative. 95 00:06:41,030 --> 00:06:44,110 Nevo: I mean, we all try to build the best products, right? 96 00:06:44,210 --> 00:06:45,770 Nevo: It's not because I'm open source. 97 00:06:45,950 --> 00:06:48,350 Nevo: I'm like, okay, it's open source, let's build a shitty product. 98 00:06:48,530 --> 00:06:52,190 Nevo: By the way, there is a lot of products that actually are like that. 99 00:06:53,430 --> 00:07:01,390 Nevo: I've seen a lot of people complain about it, that it's open source, but other non-owned persons' products look much better than open source ones. 100 00:07:01,790 --> 00:07:02,870 Nevo: There's a big notion on that. 101 00:07:03,210 --> 00:07:05,210 Nevo: I hope it will be better. 102 00:07:05,430 --> 00:07:06,610 Nevo: That's my goal anyway. 103 00:07:07,930 --> 00:07:09,390 Nesters: I mean, it looks better. 104 00:07:09,470 --> 00:07:11,670 Nesters: I haven't tried because I don't use any of them anyway. 105 00:07:11,990 --> 00:07:14,990 Nesters: Also, the marketing website is a marketing website, so everything looks good. 106 00:07:15,350 --> 00:07:16,410 Nesters: It's not the product. 107 00:07:17,490 --> 00:07:22,410 Nesters: Just looking at the functionality, yeah, it looks pretty nice compared to like... 108 00:07:22,410 --> 00:07:24,130 Nesters: I mean, I've tried like Buffer or something. 109 00:07:24,330 --> 00:07:26,830 Nesters: It just kind of gets a little bit too confusing, honestly. 110 00:07:26,970 --> 00:07:31,970 Nesters: I don't know if your tool suffers from that, but some of the things just were getting too confusing for me. 111 00:07:32,930 --> 00:07:33,330 Nesters: Yeah. 112 00:07:34,210 --> 00:07:34,890 Nesters: Yeah, okay. 113 00:07:35,170 --> 00:07:36,970 Nesters: And I know that there's another thing. 114 00:07:37,050 --> 00:07:42,930 Nesters: We're obviously going to dive deeper into the story as well, but there's another thing you do on the side right now, which is the consulting, right? 115 00:07:42,990 --> 00:07:46,390 Nesters: That is related to your technically to Posties open source idea, right? 116 00:07:47,370 --> 00:07:52,810 Nevo: Yeah, last year, not Posties, but GitRoom is my other consulting for open source. 117 00:07:53,290 --> 00:08:01,210 Nevo: Last year, I talked to 120 founders in open source because I have my own tricks on getting engagement in open source. 118 00:08:01,210 --> 00:08:03,390 Nevo: So, I help a lot of them in marketing. 119 00:08:03,810 --> 00:08:06,210 Nevo: So, yeah, I did that for a whole year. 120 00:08:06,690 --> 00:08:13,250 Nevo: But this year, because I have the product, I kind of like dropped most of them because, I don't know, I don't like to consult so much. 121 00:08:13,390 --> 00:08:15,150 Nevo: It's too tiring. 122 00:08:15,910 --> 00:08:16,330 Nevo: I don't know. 123 00:08:16,370 --> 00:08:18,590 Nevo: It's nice money, but I like the... 124 00:08:18,590 --> 00:08:24,650 Nesters: Yeah, I was wondering because it sounds like it's also a funnel for you to the consulting work, but you actually don't want to do the consulting, right? 125 00:08:24,710 --> 00:08:25,490 Nesters: You want to stay... 126 00:08:25,490 --> 00:08:26,970 Nevo: Yeah, I like to build products in the end. 127 00:08:27,290 --> 00:08:29,390 Nevo: I just did it to make money. 128 00:08:29,830 --> 00:08:32,190 Nesters: Yeah, but I guess that's an opportunity for other people. 129 00:08:32,330 --> 00:08:35,430 Nesters: We can get into that, I guess, a bit later because it's still an opportunity to... 130 00:08:35,930 --> 00:08:37,950 Nesters: I guess the way you sustain yourself. 131 00:08:38,770 --> 00:08:42,190 Nevo: I'll say all the... I have my own playbook for open source marketing. 132 00:08:42,470 --> 00:08:44,550 Nevo: So, we can definitely dive into this. 133 00:08:46,570 --> 00:08:46,950 Nesters: All right. 134 00:08:48,290 --> 00:08:51,830 Nesters: There is one person requesting a mic, so we stopped it. 135 00:08:52,070 --> 00:08:52,810 Nesters: We're done with the intro. 136 00:08:52,990 --> 00:08:54,010 Nesters: I mean, I can approve it. 137 00:08:54,090 --> 00:08:55,850 Nesters: Let's check and move on with the... 138 00:08:55,850 --> 00:08:56,630 Nesters: Was there a question? 139 00:08:58,470 --> 00:08:59,850 Nesters: Whoever that person is. 140 00:09:01,690 --> 00:09:03,610 Nesters: Because my UX is a little bit buggy. 141 00:09:07,990 --> 00:09:08,330 Nesters: All right. 142 00:09:08,630 --> 00:09:11,370 Nesters: I guess we move on if there's no question right now. 143 00:09:12,250 --> 00:09:13,590 Nesters: I mean, John, do you have a question? 144 00:09:18,700 --> 00:09:19,000 Nesters: Okay. 145 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:22,560 Nesters: I guess we can discuss it later. 146 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:24,540 Nesters: So, what was... 147 00:09:25,120 --> 00:09:27,560 Nesters: How did you start regarding the... 148 00:09:27,560 --> 00:09:34,720 Nesters: Even before open source, as far as I know, you told me you were actually trying as an indie hacker, basically like a solopreneur. 149 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:38,300 Nesters: And it sort of didn't work out on the first try. 150 00:09:39,420 --> 00:09:45,980 Nevo: I mean, it's actually kind of funny because it's really connected to the previous weekly app that you had. 151 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:47,860 Nevo: So, I had my own product. 152 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:49,620 Nevo: It's back in COVID time, I think. 153 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:53,040 Nevo: Product where like SaaS exploded at that time. 154 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:55,640 Nevo: And I have a LinkedIn automation tool. 155 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,460 Nevo: It's called Linvo, a social media outreach tool. 156 00:10:00,680 --> 00:10:05,400 Nevo: And what I did there is that I sold a lot of lifetime deals on AppSumo. 157 00:10:05,660 --> 00:10:07,560 Nevo: Like a lot, basically. 158 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:11,360 Nevo: I didn't even know what I'm doing, but that was really easy. 159 00:10:11,940 --> 00:10:12,900 Nevo: It was fun. 160 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:19,640 Nevo: And I didn't calculate so well how much money I'm spending all the time. 161 00:10:20,860 --> 00:10:25,260 Nevo: Because you get like when you do AppSumo and stuff, you get like tons of money in a very short period of time. 162 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:26,540 Nevo: Yeah. 163 00:10:27,100 --> 00:10:28,160 Nevo: And I spend a lot. 164 00:10:28,260 --> 00:10:29,720 Nevo: Okay, let's do another design. 165 00:10:30,220 --> 00:10:31,920 Nevo: And I started to burn out my money. 166 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:41,240 Nevo: But I had a very big expenses because this social media outreach tool had proxies that I paid for every month. 167 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,320 Nevo: So, I started to drain the money like really, really fast. 168 00:10:46,140 --> 00:10:50,200 Nevo: And then I still kept on holding it for a long time, losing like a lot of money. 169 00:10:50,500 --> 00:10:53,460 Nevo: But I got into like... 170 00:10:53,460 --> 00:10:55,560 Nevo: I was like, okay, this is the first version. 171 00:10:55,560 --> 00:10:57,960 Nevo: And then I started to work on the second version of Linvo. 172 00:10:58,060 --> 00:10:59,700 Nevo: And during that time, I was in a co-working. 173 00:11:00,560 --> 00:11:01,740 Nevo: So, I met the guys from Novo. 174 00:11:01,940 --> 00:11:03,180 Nevo: You can check Novo.co. 175 00:11:03,420 --> 00:11:08,680 Nevo: It's a notification infrastructure for developers. 176 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:10,940 Nevo: You can, you know... 177 00:11:10,940 --> 00:11:11,180 Nesters: Yeah, yeah. 178 00:11:11,180 --> 00:11:11,800 Nevo: Send an email. 179 00:11:12,060 --> 00:11:13,780 Nevo: After two hours, send an SMS. 180 00:11:14,060 --> 00:11:16,860 Nevo: After controlling your notification infrastructure. 181 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,520 Nevo: And they started to do like open source stuff. 182 00:11:19,620 --> 00:11:21,760 Nevo: Like this was a very new experience for me. 183 00:11:21,820 --> 00:11:22,480 Nevo: I've never seen. 184 00:11:23,100 --> 00:11:26,380 Nevo: Because when you look at open source companies, you know the classic one. 185 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:27,980 Nevo: Okay, my SQL is open source. 186 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:30,760 Nevo: Yeah, we all know this database, open source and things like that. 187 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:34,060 Nevo: But I never really experienced like a full stack. 188 00:11:34,340 --> 00:11:39,160 Nevo: It's just like a full stack company building a full stack product in open source. 189 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:40,380 Nevo: I don't know. 190 00:11:40,420 --> 00:11:41,620 Nevo: It's something I've never seen before. 191 00:11:41,740 --> 00:11:43,960 Nevo: It was pretty interesting. 192 00:11:44,180 --> 00:11:45,260 Nevo: So, I shifted to that. 193 00:11:45,700 --> 00:11:48,320 Nevo: After that, I closed Linvo a while later. 194 00:11:49,100 --> 00:11:53,600 Nevo: And then, you know, I worked in Ovu for like two years. 195 00:11:54,140 --> 00:11:57,400 Nevo: Got into 31,000 stars in two years. 196 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,200 Nevo: I know we'll talk about what stars even means. 197 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,120 Nevo: But that brought a lot of enterprise customers and so on. 198 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:07,980 Nevo: The last year, I started consulting. 199 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,940 Nevo: I knew that I don't want to be again without a job, no matter what I do. 200 00:12:13,560 --> 00:12:17,220 Nevo: Started to do consulting plus building my own products at the same time. 201 00:12:17,700 --> 00:12:21,440 Nevo: So, that's like fast forward to open source. 202 00:12:22,240 --> 00:12:25,420 Nevo: And that consulting was already related to the open source that you were doing? 203 00:12:25,620 --> 00:12:26,260 Nevo: It was only open source. 204 00:12:26,500 --> 00:12:28,180 Nevo: It was like a niche of a niche of a niche. 205 00:12:28,540 --> 00:12:32,120 Nevo: Because it's like how to do marketing for open source. 206 00:12:32,260 --> 00:12:33,220 Nevo: It was literally about that. 207 00:12:33,280 --> 00:12:34,720 Nevo: Because it's such a niche-y thing. 208 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:38,700 Nevo: Like, there's not a lot of companies that do that. 209 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,540 Nevo: So, the good thing about it is that you have a very small amount of audience. 210 00:12:44,100 --> 00:12:46,720 Nevo: But you charge also like a very big amount of money. 211 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:48,000 Nevo: For each customer. 212 00:12:48,340 --> 00:12:51,020 Nevo: Because you're like the only person in the market. 213 00:12:51,900 --> 00:12:53,700 Nesters: Yeah, I'm starting to see patterns here. 214 00:12:53,940 --> 00:13:00,140 Nesters: You know, also with the previous one with the feature we did with Charles doing the music plugins. 215 00:13:00,320 --> 00:13:03,800 Nesters: It's also a very small niche that you carve out for yourself. 216 00:13:03,940 --> 00:13:06,000 Nesters: And then you just start building up on that. 217 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:07,480 Nevo: Yes. 218 00:13:10,060 --> 00:13:17,520 Nevo: But it's very important to say that the thing is that open source started to explode really around the years of 2022. 219 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:21,920 Nevo: You can see like batches and Y Combinator and Techstars and all of that. 220 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:24,620 Nevo: Like the entire batch is open source companies. 221 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,100 Nevo: It's like it's still kind of a new thing. 222 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:34,240 Nevo: Like before all these open source companies that you see everywhere would be like, you know, databases, things like that. 223 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,520 Nevo: You would never see like, I don't know, a social media scheduling tool. 224 00:13:37,900 --> 00:13:38,600 Nevo: Just open source. 225 00:13:38,820 --> 00:13:40,460 Nevo: You don't see things like that. 226 00:13:40,940 --> 00:13:42,240 Nevo: I think it's still very new. 227 00:13:43,020 --> 00:13:47,580 Nesters: I think it's the whole marketing field is actually not very captured by open source. 228 00:13:47,680 --> 00:13:53,840 Nesters: Because generally the marketing tools seem to be very monetized, including SEO tools, for example. 229 00:13:53,900 --> 00:13:55,980 Nesters: They always are hyper monetized. 230 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:57,500 Nesters: There's a couple of winners usually. 231 00:13:57,500 --> 00:14:01,220 Nesters: And that everyone's trying to charge money because marketing is... 232 00:14:01,220 --> 00:14:05,900 Nesters: Well, it's where agencies and everyone is basically trying to make money, you know, the middle layer as well. 233 00:14:06,100 --> 00:14:12,380 Nesters: So it seems like that's the field where there's like a lot of room, I guess, for open source. 234 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,840 Nesters: I know that for tracking, for example, there's PostHog as well. 235 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:17,160 Nesters: That is an open source tool. 236 00:14:17,200 --> 00:14:20,360 Nesters: But I believe many users don't actually know that it's open source. 237 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:22,780 Nesters: Like you can self-host and it's open source. 238 00:14:22,780 --> 00:14:29,700 Nesters: You know, I feel like a lot of people use it for tracking without really paying attention to the fact, you know, it's an open source tool. 239 00:14:29,740 --> 00:14:30,840 Nesters: I think it's today like that. 240 00:14:31,140 --> 00:14:33,300 Nevo: It started as a very open source thing. 241 00:14:33,620 --> 00:14:36,080 Nevo: A lot of them, also Superbase, Upright. 242 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,160 Nevo: A lot of them started as a super open source thing. 243 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,220 Nevo: By the way, you just don't see it because... 244 00:14:42,220 --> 00:14:43,820 Nevo: And we will talk why they don't do this. 245 00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:47,020 Nevo: They don't push their open source in social media and so on. 246 00:14:47,980 --> 00:14:49,620 Nevo: But they're still open source. 247 00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:53,040 Nevo: Their open source community is very, very much alive. 248 00:14:53,220 --> 00:14:54,720 Nevo: They get contributions all the time. 249 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:57,140 Nevo: They have a lot of people and a lot of developers on their Discord. 250 00:14:57,840 --> 00:14:58,940 Nevo: They're still open source. 251 00:15:00,740 --> 00:15:02,100 Nesters: Oh my God. 252 00:15:02,620 --> 00:15:06,080 Nesters: You're going to need to unmute yourself again because that thing again happened. 253 00:15:06,380 --> 00:15:10,920 Nesters: I was pressing to accept someone as a speaker and I muted the whole space. 254 00:15:12,820 --> 00:15:14,620 Daniel: The COI is so terrible. 255 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:17,960 Nesters: No, because I have the request to speak. 256 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:18,880 Nesters: I'm pressing the button. 257 00:15:18,880 --> 00:15:23,160 Nesters: And they removed the request and it's just a mute space button. 258 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:23,860 Nesters: It's right there. 259 00:15:25,580 --> 00:15:26,420 Nesters: Oh my God. 260 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:27,440 Prince: What's the last thing? 261 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,760 Prince: All the audio changed as well. 262 00:15:31,540 --> 00:15:31,920 Prince: Yeah. 263 00:15:32,540 --> 00:15:33,220 Prince: No, no. 264 00:15:34,580 --> 00:15:36,980 Daniel: No, it's good. 265 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:38,100 Nesters: Yeah. 266 00:15:38,220 --> 00:15:40,760 Nesters: The last thing I heard was... 267 00:15:41,280 --> 00:15:42,180 Nesters: What did I hear? 268 00:15:42,980 --> 00:15:46,200 Nesters: We talked about the post-hoc and they didn't start that way. 269 00:15:46,200 --> 00:15:51,080 Nevo: All of them still have a very lively open source community. 270 00:15:51,260 --> 00:15:53,780 Nevo: They just don't push it so much in social channels. 271 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,560 Nevo: We can talk about... 272 00:15:57,420 --> 00:15:58,320 Nevo: We'll get to this. 273 00:15:58,400 --> 00:16:04,320 Nevo: But when you open an open source, you usually have two types of audiences. 274 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,100 Nevo: This is actually the hard part. 275 00:16:07,580 --> 00:16:12,500 Nevo: Because when I run posties, I have customers. 276 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:13,600 Nevo: That's one thing. 277 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,240 Nevo: And then I have the open source community. 278 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:20,160 Nevo: And it's like two different products, basically, to run. 279 00:16:20,540 --> 00:16:22,120 Nevo: It's a little bit hard, by the way. 280 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:23,220 Nesters: It's not so easy. 281 00:16:24,820 --> 00:16:26,920 Nesters: Yeah, that's something we're also going to get into. 282 00:16:27,140 --> 00:16:28,140 Nesters: Prince, do you have a question? 283 00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:30,920 Nesters: It looks like you already... 284 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:31,320 Prince: Yeah. 285 00:16:31,980 --> 00:16:32,580 Prince: Hey, Nebo. 286 00:16:32,740 --> 00:16:33,600 Prince: I had a question. 287 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,320 Prince: This might sound ridiculous to a couple of people here who are way more experienced than me. 288 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:42,960 Prince: But I thought open source OSS, does that not mean it's free? 289 00:16:43,320 --> 00:16:50,000 Prince: And if I'm correct, then why would people pay for marketing? 290 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:54,920 Prince: Is it because then they have add-on features, like pro licenses, and that's where they get their money? 291 00:16:56,220 --> 00:16:59,260 Prince: So that's one of the topics we were supposed to touch. 292 00:16:59,500 --> 00:17:02,920 Nevo: Basically, there is FOSS. 293 00:17:03,100 --> 00:17:04,160 Nevo: It's free open source. 294 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:06,800 Nevo: And there are different licenses. 295 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:09,220 Nevo: It depends what license each company uses. 296 00:17:09,620 --> 00:17:10,420 Nevo: I'll give you an example. 297 00:17:10,620 --> 00:17:15,460 Nevo: Some companies, let's say like Cal.com, for example, they're also open source. 298 00:17:16,780 --> 00:17:22,920 Nevo: The repository is AGPL3, but they have another folder called Enterprise, which has a different license. 299 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,360 Nevo: So basically, if you're in Enterprise, you will not use it. 300 00:17:27,500 --> 00:17:27,940 Nevo: It's stealing. 301 00:17:28,060 --> 00:17:28,960 Nevo: You will have to pay them. 302 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:41,100 Nesters: I guess we also need to bring up the topic of, if there's Cal.com, which is free and open source, why would everyone use Calendly? 303 00:17:41,220 --> 00:17:46,960 Nesters: Because most people use Calendly, but honestly, Cal.com does most of the things as well. 304 00:17:47,060 --> 00:17:47,920 Nesters: And it's open source, right? 305 00:17:47,980 --> 00:17:49,960 Nesters: So you would just use the open source free version. 306 00:17:50,700 --> 00:17:52,440 Nesters: They're first to market, right? 307 00:17:52,980 --> 00:17:54,580 Nesters: Yeah, well, that's the thing. 308 00:17:54,740 --> 00:17:55,440 Nesters: First to market. 309 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:01,320 Nesters: But there's also the convenience aspect as well, when you use the hosted paid version instead of your self-hosted open source. 310 00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,040 Nevo: Let's talk about Posties, for example. 311 00:18:06,360 --> 00:18:08,720 Nevo: I called it free open source. 312 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:12,220 Nevo: FOSS, I don't have any other... there's a lot of licenses. 313 00:18:12,740 --> 00:18:17,340 Nevo: Some of the licenses actually make your repository not even open source. 314 00:18:17,460 --> 00:18:19,080 Nevo: It makes it self-hosted. 315 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,100 Nevo: There are some licenses that you can see all the code and everything, but you're not allowed to use it. 316 00:18:23,140 --> 00:18:23,960 Nevo: You have to pay for it. 317 00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:26,460 Nevo: So mine is free open source. 318 00:18:27,120 --> 00:18:28,380 Nevo: And developers, absolutely. 319 00:18:28,980 --> 00:18:32,080 Nevo: A lot of them would like to just clone it and not... 320 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:35,400 Nevo: They would still need to pay for server, Hetzner, and so on, if they host it. 321 00:18:35,840 --> 00:18:36,800 Nevo: But they would like to use it. 322 00:18:37,320 --> 00:18:41,880 Nevo: Posties has its own difficulty, because you need to approve every application. 323 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:46,060 Nevo: You want to use Facebook, and you need to approve Facebook to create a new Facebook application. 324 00:18:46,660 --> 00:18:48,220 Nevo: This is a very hard process, by the way. 325 00:18:48,220 --> 00:18:53,240 Nevo: So it adds a little bit of friction, which is good for me, I think, because people would go for the hosted one. 326 00:18:54,760 --> 00:19:02,100 Nevo: But if you look at Posties, the amount of people, the amount of time the Docker was downloaded, it's almost 3 million downloads, basically. 327 00:19:02,440 --> 00:19:05,440 Nevo: So it's much more than the actual people that pay me. 328 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:07,300 Nevo: I wish it was 3 million. 329 00:19:09,740 --> 00:19:10,860 Nesters: Yeah, okay. 330 00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:14,300 Nesters: So, yeah, I guess this brings up the marketing angle, is that... 331 00:19:15,500 --> 00:19:21,960 Nesters: I guess also the target audience for the marketing angle of the open source is obviously very specific. 332 00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:28,340 Nesters: And I think that talks a little bit to the fact that it's not as adapted in the marketing space. 333 00:19:28,460 --> 00:19:33,980 Nesters: The open source product is partially because the target audience usually used to not be there. 334 00:19:33,980 --> 00:19:42,460 Nesters: Now, obviously, a lot of developers are solopreneurs, indie developers, or even if they work for a huge corporation, they're building their brand. 335 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:49,460 Nesters: So they are more interested in marketing tools like your Posties, for example, but it didn't always used to be the case. 336 00:19:49,740 --> 00:19:57,720 Nesters: So I think that's maybe partially why marketing tools are not super taken over by open source projects, for example. 337 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,300 Nevo: But, you know, there is two audiences, and one of them I'm trying to neglect. 338 00:20:02,820 --> 00:20:04,960 Nevo: It's the most amount of money, to be honest. 339 00:20:05,540 --> 00:20:09,040 Nevo: I just today talked to people in ActiveCampaign. 340 00:20:10,900 --> 00:20:19,520 Nevo: Self-hosted also can give you the possibility to get into bigger enterprises where privacy is very important for them. 341 00:20:19,900 --> 00:20:23,400 Nevo: You know, like, I'll give you just like a hypothetical thing, right? 342 00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:25,620 Nevo: Posties is a social media scheduling tool. 343 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:29,720 Nevo: Let's say you're using Buffer, which is only their cloud and everything. 344 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:40,160 Nevo: You are, I don't know, Starbucks, whatever, and you want to release in two weeks from now some promotion, you know, about something new in Starbucks, basically. 345 00:20:40,900 --> 00:20:45,720 Nevo: Now, this is saved in their database of Buffer, basically. 346 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:54,480 Nevo: Now, obviously, they will not look into it, but, you know, in terms of corporation privacy and stuff, that might be a problem, basically. 347 00:20:54,480 --> 00:21:08,520 Nevo: Having this self-hosted and providing support, that's sometimes something that is even more valuable than just like making a subscription, like a normal subscription for SaaS. 348 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,560 Nevo: And this is actually most of the big open source companies, what they are trying to do. 349 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:18,060 Nevo: They're trying to turn into enterprises that need self-hosting, most of them. 350 00:21:18,980 --> 00:21:25,860 Nesters: So, yeah, I think that's a big thing nowadays as well, especially with regional issues as well. 351 00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:32,860 Nesters: So, for example, maybe European companies or governments want to host more stuff locally in Europe. 352 00:21:33,100 --> 00:21:36,220 Nesters: So, that's another, for example, thing happening now. 353 00:21:36,500 --> 00:21:41,880 Nesters: I know there's a lot of people in SmallBits community that are into self-hosting, including Dennis, who's listening right now. 354 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:49,540 Nesters: And I think that, obviously, there's a lot of freedom in the fact that you can host it. 355 00:21:49,660 --> 00:21:54,680 Nesters: And I would actually, I myself, I would love to self-host more stuff, but I just don't want to deal with the hassle. 356 00:21:54,820 --> 00:21:59,980 Nesters: So, I more often will just pay for the service, even though I know the self-hosted option exists. 357 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:06,160 Nesters: I think it's one of the conversions, like at least a small conversion factor in the thinking process. 358 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,420 Nesters: That is like, but if I want to, I can still self-host it later. 359 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:15,340 Nevo: But just to give you an example, it's just, I don't have these kind of meetings, okay, because I'm trying to avoid enterprise. 360 00:22:15,700 --> 00:22:19,420 Nevo: You will barely find the enterprise button in my website to schedule a call with me. 361 00:22:19,860 --> 00:22:22,620 Nevo: But today I got a call from ActiveCampaign. 362 00:22:23,420 --> 00:22:28,160 Nevo: And they said like, we are a very big company, but we don't have like a social media scheduling tool. 363 00:22:28,860 --> 00:22:31,060 Nevo: Okay, we're thinking of having maybe posties. 364 00:22:31,180 --> 00:22:33,380 Nevo: And they already created like kind of a hackathon. 365 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,140 Nevo: Okay, they have like a hackathon that everybody presents their own product and stuff like that. 366 00:22:38,140 --> 00:22:43,340 Nevo: And one of the guys basically took posties and just changed the design and everything. 367 00:22:43,420 --> 00:22:46,280 Nevo: And he's going to pitch this as a product, basically. 368 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,720 Nevo: You just can't do this with non-open source. 369 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:52,380 Nevo: So it's pretty, I don't know, it's pretty insane, I think. 370 00:22:55,300 --> 00:22:55,700 Nevo: Interesting. 371 00:22:56,900 --> 00:22:59,360 Nevo: Yeah, there's a lot of things that you can do with open source. 372 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:05,180 Nevo: And there's a lot of things that you should also like, you know, a few days ago, I see another competitor for posties. 373 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:06,640 Nevo: That is posties, basically. 374 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:08,640 Nevo: They took it and they just... 375 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,140 Nesters: Is that Publika that you mentioned? 376 00:23:12,700 --> 00:23:13,420 Nevo: Yeah, Publika. 377 00:23:14,140 --> 00:23:14,500 Nevo: Yeah. 378 00:23:15,140 --> 00:23:16,780 Nesters: Okay, let's bring that. 379 00:23:17,140 --> 00:23:23,460 Nesters: Like, what kind of person do you need to be to do this open source, like this kind of open source software? 380 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:27,760 Nesters: Because there has to be some removal of ego from the project. 381 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:36,340 Nesters: Because if you have like a lot of ego about your project, and someone else just takes it and makes a better version of it, for example, or like they actually start making a lot of money. 382 00:23:36,340 --> 00:23:38,440 Nesters: If the license permits that, for example. 383 00:23:39,120 --> 00:23:40,300 Nesters: If it's true open source. 384 00:23:41,660 --> 00:23:43,780 Nevo: I'm not afraid of that at all. 385 00:23:44,020 --> 00:23:45,420 Nevo: That's the least of my concern. 386 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,620 Nevo: I think products usually are built on brands. 387 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,840 Nevo: Yeah, I know. 388 00:23:50,420 --> 00:23:51,620 Nevo: Big products like this. 389 00:23:52,020 --> 00:23:53,640 Nevo: I'm afraid of active campaigns. 390 00:23:54,140 --> 00:23:55,720 Nevo: Taking posties and selling posties. 391 00:23:55,740 --> 00:23:56,540 Nevo: This one, I'm afraid. 392 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:57,760 Nevo: They have a big brand. 393 00:23:58,140 --> 00:24:01,760 Nevo: If they take it and you just use it, this is a bigger problem. 394 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:02,780 Nevo: Basically. 395 00:24:03,900 --> 00:24:08,740 Nesters: Yeah, just think of the person feeling that, obviously. 396 00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,600 Nesters: Because that's a huge problem in building public, right? 397 00:24:12,620 --> 00:24:18,300 Nesters: Because a lot of people don't start building in public because they feel that fear of being judged, etc. 398 00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:19,020 Nesters: And failing. 399 00:24:19,300 --> 00:24:21,120 Nesters: And at some point, it's also not just failing. 400 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:25,340 Nesters: With open source, the additional angle is also what if someone takes your stuff and succeeds. 401 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,820 Nesters: Although you should be happy they succeeded with your stuff and it was valuable. 402 00:24:29,220 --> 00:24:32,200 Nevo: But you rarely ever hear a story like that. 403 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,540 Nevo: Yeah, Courser, for example, yes. 404 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,060 Nevo: But it's rarely ever happened. 405 00:24:39,500 --> 00:24:41,920 Nevo: Especially with full stack applications like this. 406 00:24:42,980 --> 00:24:44,160 Nevo: Think about this market. 407 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:47,540 Nevo: Honestly, I don't recommend anybody to build a social media scheduling tool. 408 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:48,940 Nevo: It's such a crowded market. 409 00:24:49,420 --> 00:24:53,500 Nevo: There's almost zero chance that somebody will succeed unless they have a very big audience. 410 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:59,720 Nevo: Like super known and they're going to do a lot of thought leadership and stuff like that. 411 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:05,200 Nevo: But just like with traditional marketing, there's very little chance somebody succeeds in this market. 412 00:25:05,580 --> 00:25:09,500 Nesters: Okay, you said there's no chance someone takes your product. 413 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:16,660 Nesters: But if we start talking about open source tooling, we kind of get into a place where that is not true, right? 414 00:25:16,700 --> 00:25:20,900 Nesters: Because there's a lot of cloud wrappers around free open source projects. 415 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:22,980 Nevo: Yeah, definitely. 416 00:25:23,140 --> 00:25:24,020 Nevo: This has happened a lot. 417 00:25:24,260 --> 00:25:26,940 Nevo: Elasticsearch, Docker, mostly for infrastructure too. 418 00:25:26,940 --> 00:25:29,800 Nevo: Literally AWS came and just took it. 419 00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:34,060 Nevo: Providing a hosted version of these tools and selling them. 420 00:25:34,220 --> 00:25:36,960 Nevo: But I think it's good and bad. 421 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,380 Nevo: Yes, they're making so much money on top of this hard worker. 422 00:25:40,500 --> 00:25:43,180 Nevo: But it also gave them so much exposure in general. 423 00:25:44,020 --> 00:25:47,460 Nevo: If Amazon started to sell Elasticsearch, Elasticsearch became very popular. 424 00:25:49,120 --> 00:25:51,360 Nesters: I completely agree on the exposure part. 425 00:25:51,360 --> 00:25:59,240 Nesters: I was mostly thinking about how do you need to be as a person to actually not get stuck into, for example, changing licenses. 426 00:25:59,300 --> 00:26:01,260 Nesters: We know all the WordPress drama, for example. 427 00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:06,040 Nesters: We're very aware of the WordPress drama with the VP engine, I guess. 428 00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:08,140 Nesters: Yeah, the automatic. 429 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:14,340 Nesters: How that turned out and how people start to basically weaponize their pre-license, for example. 430 00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:17,300 Nesters: Because I don't know why they get hurt. 431 00:26:17,780 --> 00:26:20,300 Nesters: I don't know if that's an ego or there was other problems. 432 00:26:20,300 --> 00:26:24,040 Nesters: But when it gets to that... 433 00:26:24,660 --> 00:26:26,560 Nevo: If you're doing it legally or not. 434 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:33,480 Nevo: They claim, at least, this is what WordPress claims, that the way they did it is illegal. 435 00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:37,380 Nevo: They call it WP engine, they are WordPress themselves. 436 00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,620 Nevo: This, I think, was the main thing. 437 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,540 Nevo: Okay, if somebody opened another post... 438 00:26:43,540 --> 00:26:47,780 Nevo: By the way, I have a special license, it's called AGPL-3 on my open source. 439 00:26:48,520 --> 00:26:54,580 Nevo: This license means that if you take my open source, you can use it as it is. 440 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:56,560 Nevo: You can use it for commercial use, not a problem. 441 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,820 Nevo: But if you want to modify it, then you have to open source it, basically. 442 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:02,360 Nevo: And give it to everybody. 443 00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:05,640 Nevo: So there are some restrictions in this whole process. 444 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,340 Nevo: So your derivatives have to basically stay open source. 445 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,220 Nevo: Yes, you have to always stay open source. 446 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:12,600 Nevo: That's the thing about AGPL-3. 447 00:27:12,860 --> 00:27:13,180 Nevo: Me too. 448 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,400 Nevo: By the way, somebody told me this, I didn't even think about it. 449 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:26,820 Nevo: Somebody said, listen, even if you as the maintainer want to create a closed source option of PostEase, basically, it's illegal. 450 00:27:27,140 --> 00:27:28,040 Nevo: You can't do this. 451 00:27:28,140 --> 00:27:31,180 Nevo: You also have to comply with your license and open source it. 452 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:32,760 Nevo: Even though a lot of businesses don't do it. 453 00:27:33,100 --> 00:27:36,320 Nevo: But generally speaking, you also need to comply with your own license. 454 00:27:39,020 --> 00:27:42,080 Nesters: Okay, I have one more person requesting to speak. 455 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,460 Nesters: Let's see if they have a question. 456 00:27:46,900 --> 00:27:51,900 Nesters: Yeah, so obviously, clearly, it benefits everyone involved, I guess. 457 00:27:52,300 --> 00:27:53,500 Nesters: You get exposure. 458 00:27:55,040 --> 00:28:03,320 Nesters: Do you feel like the exposure for your project, for example, has it been huge in the open source community? 459 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:06,240 Nesters: Do you feel like you're well recognized for certain things? 460 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,980 Nesters: How is that interaction in the community? 461 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,800 Nesters: I guess, touching a little bit on the community aspect. 462 00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,860 Nevo: I think it all comes down to marketing in the end. 463 00:28:15,460 --> 00:28:20,460 Nevo: In open source, you have some superpowers in marketing that you don't have with non-open source product. 464 00:28:20,580 --> 00:28:25,660 Nevo: And I think this is the main thing, basically, when you go open source. 465 00:28:28,420 --> 00:28:30,500 Nevo: Let's start with the simplest example. 466 00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:46,140 Nevo: If you take your SaaS, except for your own Xfeed or LinkedIn feed and so on, if you go to Reddit, to subreddits and stuff like that, or go to Facebook groups and stuff like that, you put your SaaS product, then your post will be deleted as self-promotion. 467 00:28:46,300 --> 00:28:47,940 Nevo: Almost always, basically. 468 00:28:48,540 --> 00:28:51,320 Nevo: But it's not the case with open source, because it's free, open source. 469 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,440 Nevo: It has some good vibe around it. 470 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,940 Nevo: So, this is a big thing that, for example, for me, I have... 471 00:28:58,940 --> 00:29:07,240 Nevo: And we can talk about my marketing strategy, but I go to Reddit every once a month. 472 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,220 Nevo: You can even look for it if you do a search. 473 00:29:09,220 --> 00:29:11,660 Nevo: You go to slash R, slash self-hosted. 474 00:29:12,060 --> 00:29:14,960 Nevo: That's like a channel, you know, self-hosted repository. 475 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:16,100 Nevo: Very, very active. 476 00:29:16,740 --> 00:29:19,440 Nevo: Every post that they put, get around 200,000 views. 477 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:20,500 Nevo: Every time. 478 00:29:21,100 --> 00:29:22,320 Nevo: Once a month, basically. 479 00:29:23,260 --> 00:29:25,840 Nesters: So, you just repost it once a month? 480 00:29:26,580 --> 00:29:26,880 Nesters: Yeah. 481 00:29:27,780 --> 00:29:30,140 Nesters: Is it the same project you're reposting? 482 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:31,280 Nesters: Sorry? 483 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:33,840 Nesters: You repost just the same project? 484 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:35,220 Nesters: Do you even change the angle? 485 00:29:35,220 --> 00:29:36,020 Nevo: No, I repost the same project. 486 00:29:36,740 --> 00:29:37,640 Nevo: So, this is the thing. 487 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,300 Nevo: I'm building a SaaS, basically. 488 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:44,640 Nevo: When you build a SaaS, you can create new features very fast. 489 00:29:44,820 --> 00:29:48,040 Nevo: So, you don't want to post every month the same thing. 490 00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:50,060 Nevo: People will tell you, okay, that's too much. 491 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,460 Nevo: You want to post all the new things and the things that people requested from the previous posts. 492 00:29:54,980 --> 00:29:57,060 Nevo: So, when you build a SaaS, it's very easy. 493 00:29:57,420 --> 00:30:00,780 Nevo: I can get a feature in a day, and I have something to post. 494 00:30:00,860 --> 00:30:03,680 Nevo: So, I just gather a few features, and then I can post them. 495 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:09,080 Nevo: But in traditional DevTools, like the open source, it's actually a DevTool also. 496 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,240 Nevo: That can be a little bit harder to do it every month. 497 00:30:13,100 --> 00:30:15,980 Nevo: Because each feature, you know, usually is like a whole product. 498 00:30:16,460 --> 00:30:18,140 Nevo: Because it's an infrastructure thing. 499 00:30:18,540 --> 00:30:19,560 Nevo: So, it's a little bit harder. 500 00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:21,180 Nevo: Alright. 501 00:30:21,260 --> 00:30:25,060 Nevo: So, if you want, I can lay out all my playbook for marketing. 502 00:30:25,940 --> 00:30:28,920 Nesters: Yeah, I think we should definitely lay out a little bit more of the marketing. 503 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:32,320 Nesters: But let's give room to Harsh, the SaaS guy. 504 00:30:32,320 --> 00:30:35,380 Nesters: Yeah, the SaaS guy. 505 00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:36,920 Harsh: Hey, thanks. 506 00:30:36,980 --> 00:30:37,880 Harsh: Thanks a lot. 507 00:30:38,060 --> 00:30:40,000 Harsh: So, I just wanted to ask one question. 508 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,100 Harsh: Let's say we have made an application, made a SaaS. 509 00:30:43,500 --> 00:30:44,940 Harsh: And we have open sourced it. 510 00:30:45,540 --> 00:30:53,760 Harsh: And later on, I'm not that much knowledgeable in terms of what kind of licensing which we need. 511 00:30:54,060 --> 00:30:56,700 Harsh: But let's say we have open sourced it. 512 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,400 Harsh: And someone else has replicated it. 513 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,720 Harsh: And he has made it closed source. 514 00:31:03,020 --> 00:31:08,660 Harsh: It's now a private software which they are using commercially to sell their own SaaS. 515 00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,500 Harsh: To give their own services. 516 00:31:12,740 --> 00:31:16,360 Harsh: And also, they have refurbished their whole UI. 517 00:31:16,780 --> 00:31:23,720 Harsh: So, how do we track that our own software and our own piece of code is being used by other people? 518 00:31:24,220 --> 00:31:25,920 Harsh: And how do we keep track of that thing? 519 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:28,460 Harsh: I'm very naive in that. 520 00:31:28,460 --> 00:31:30,200 Harsh: You just can't. 521 00:31:30,220 --> 00:31:32,680 Nevo: And that's the punishment of using open source. 522 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:35,570 Nevo: That's the other thing for the other side. 523 00:31:36,180 --> 00:31:36,640 Nevo: You can't. 524 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,520 Nevo: I don't think you should worry about this too much. 525 00:31:39,220 --> 00:31:39,520 Nevo: Basically. 526 00:31:40,540 --> 00:31:41,080 Harsh: Got it. 527 00:31:43,580 --> 00:31:53,080 Harsh: Also, how much advantages do you see being an open source person rather than being a private person in the terms of SaaS? 528 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:59,800 Harsh: Because when you are open source, it's literally one click to replicate your whole product. 529 00:32:00,380 --> 00:32:03,540 Harsh: And when you are private source, it's difficult. 530 00:32:03,740 --> 00:32:08,600 Harsh: Someone has to go through the whole pain of doing the execution of making the whole SaaS. 531 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:11,540 Harsh: I know these days it's easy to replicate it. 532 00:32:11,660 --> 00:32:13,080 Harsh: But still, it's a friction. 533 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:15,560 Harsh: Very few people do it. 534 00:32:16,780 --> 00:32:23,360 Nesters: Yeah, because I think that's exactly the question I was also asking Nivo in a way. 535 00:32:23,540 --> 00:32:27,400 Nesters: What kind of person do you need to be to actually do open source? 536 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:31,800 Nesters: Because you will feel very uncomfortable with the fact that it can be replicated. 537 00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:34,280 Nesters: Potentially someone could do better marketing. 538 00:32:34,740 --> 00:32:36,400 Nesters: Someone could sell it better. 539 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:43,300 Nesters: So yeah, I guess that's the angle some people, some of the audience will obviously feel. 540 00:32:43,300 --> 00:32:48,600 Nesters: I guess maybe you can't actually answer that question because you never felt that way? 541 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,260 Nevo: No, but you need to address the main problem. 542 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,340 Nevo: If you really go deep down, you don't care that people use it. 543 00:32:53,700 --> 00:32:55,780 Nevo: I'm happy that people are using it. 544 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:04,680 Nevo: You are afraid, mostly, that another company will take it and build something better on top of this, compete with you and crush you. 545 00:33:04,940 --> 00:33:07,360 Nevo: That's your main concern when you think of open source. 546 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:07,740 Nevo: Exactly. 547 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,000 Nevo: But honestly, it's rarely ever happened. 548 00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:18,200 Nevo: People that are copying open sources, it's rarely... there can be. 549 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:20,020 Nevo: Totally can be. 550 00:33:20,860 --> 00:33:22,340 Nevo: But think about today. 551 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,020 Nevo: I have posted 20,000 stars. 552 00:33:26,140 --> 00:33:34,020 Nevo: What is the chance somebody can actually copy this, use it as a different brand and really skyrocket beyond everything? 553 00:33:34,660 --> 00:33:36,680 Nevo: And there is also the public opinion. 554 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,760 Nevo: I can just go to X, to LinkedIn, to many places. 555 00:33:39,980 --> 00:33:43,440 Nevo: Listen, if they are really big, they copy the entire thing. 556 00:33:45,500 --> 00:33:51,280 Nevo: For example, the classic example can be Pair.ai. 557 00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,980 Nevo: Do you remember these guys? 558 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,380 Nevo: That they took Continual and forked it and used it? 559 00:33:57,720 --> 00:33:59,000 Nevo: And then it was busted. 560 00:33:59,380 --> 00:34:00,880 Nevo: It was a huge story around this. 561 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:02,660 Nevo: I don't know if somebody remembers. 562 00:34:02,660 --> 00:34:03,600 Nevo: Yeah, I've heard it. 563 00:34:03,660 --> 00:34:06,820 Harsh: But I didn't follow the stories enough, I guess. 564 00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,860 Harsh: But let's say you are good enough to copy and not let other people even give a hint. 565 00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:15,360 Harsh: You refurbish the whole UI. 566 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,500 Harsh: And backend can be any which way is the same. 567 00:34:18,800 --> 00:34:20,080 Harsh: No one cares about the backend. 568 00:34:20,740 --> 00:34:22,560 Harsh: But what are you afraid of the most? 569 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:24,140 Nevo: Are you afraid about the technology? 570 00:34:24,140 --> 00:34:32,940 Nevo: Honestly, with all this wipe coding and SaaS everywhere, I feel that actual coding in the end, today, is not the biggest friction. 571 00:34:33,420 --> 00:34:33,820 Nevo: At least today. 572 00:34:33,860 --> 00:34:37,200 Nevo: I think you are building some very big, deep tech stuff. 573 00:34:38,240 --> 00:34:40,360 Nevo: Maybe it's not supposed to be open source. 574 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,400 Nevo: But Posty, social media scheduling tool? 575 00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:44,220 Nevo: I mean, come on, you can build this also. 576 00:34:44,780 --> 00:34:47,320 Nesters: Yeah, we can copy page software now, too. 577 00:34:47,420 --> 00:34:49,880 Nesters: We can copy the main features without having the code. 578 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,660 Nesters: It's not the real problem with the wipe code. 579 00:34:53,660 --> 00:34:56,420 Nesters: Especially with the wipe coding available. 580 00:34:57,020 --> 00:35:01,180 Nesters: We need to move on to Vlad, probably, as the other question. 581 00:35:03,020 --> 00:35:04,400 Nesters: Yeah, thank you for asking. 582 00:35:04,740 --> 00:35:07,860 Vlad: Quick comment on the last discussion. 583 00:35:08,460 --> 00:35:18,560 Vlad: If you built this product, and if you know it inside and out, I don't think you should be afraid at all of someone copying it. 584 00:35:18,720 --> 00:35:20,740 Vlad: Because, well, you built it. 585 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:22,220 Vlad: You had all the ideas. 586 00:35:22,220 --> 00:35:25,000 Vlad: And what is important here is the rate of innovation. 587 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:28,420 Vlad: How fast can you ship new features? 588 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:29,940 Vlad: How fast can you make it better? 589 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,600 Vlad: And, yes, of course, the marketing that you've done so far. 590 00:35:35,060 --> 00:35:44,720 Vlad: But even if the rate is just better because you're improving it faster, it doesn't matter what anyone else is doing. 591 00:35:44,860 --> 00:35:47,880 Vlad: And people who copy, they're not that good. 592 00:35:49,460 --> 00:35:52,960 Nesters: Yeah, and it's especially good if you're in your head. 593 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,480 Nesters: You're already multiple steps ahead in front of the features you have released. 594 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,560 Nesters: Even if they copy, they're behind. 595 00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:05,360 Nesters: So, obviously, that's another bonus you have. 596 00:36:06,740 --> 00:36:10,080 Nevo: Yeah, I honestly think that today... 597 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:10,620 Nevo: And this is the problem. 598 00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:12,020 Nevo: Everybody, I think, is talking about this. 599 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:13,720 Nevo: I can see it more and more. 600 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,840 Nevo: It's easy to create a SaaS. 601 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:18,860 Nevo: It's not a hard thing anymore. 602 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:21,520 Nevo: I mean, at least what you see is what you get SaaS. 603 00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,960 Nevo: Not the background working things that maybe vibe quarters, it's harder for them to do. 604 00:36:26,380 --> 00:36:28,120 Nevo: It's easy to create a SaaS. 605 00:36:28,240 --> 00:36:32,780 Nevo: It means that a lot more people are creating SaaS all the time, nonstop. 606 00:36:33,540 --> 00:36:36,220 Nevo: So, this is a nice way to differentiate yourself. 607 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,700 Nevo: Because, yes, you can just build it with closed source, but maybe also nobody will actually see it. 608 00:36:41,860 --> 00:36:46,440 Nesters: Oh, I noticed you actually have Catalin as well in the listeners. 609 00:36:47,220 --> 00:36:48,960 Nesters: He's also another open source guy. 610 00:36:49,020 --> 00:36:55,220 Nesters: Obviously, he's not the founder of DocuMensor, but he's one of the people who... 611 00:36:55,220 --> 00:37:02,700 Nesters: Why I even know about the software existing is because of, obviously, him being part of the SmallBits community and also pretty active on X. 612 00:37:03,220 --> 00:37:04,340 Nesters: So, that's nice. 613 00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,200 Nesters: If you want to speak, you can also request to speak. 614 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:08,960 Nesters: It would be nice to hear your perspective as well. 615 00:37:10,220 --> 00:37:12,600 Nesters: But, yeah, it's fine if you're just listening. 616 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,960 Nesters: I think I do want to go over the... 617 00:37:18,500 --> 00:37:22,740 Nesters: Okay, what is your marketing playbook on broad? 618 00:37:23,180 --> 00:37:26,200 Nesters: I guess, just go over a little bit of the marketing. 619 00:37:26,860 --> 00:37:29,020 Nevo: I'll tell you the entire marketing thing that I do. 620 00:37:29,240 --> 00:37:30,920 Nevo: Every time I go in... 621 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:32,720 Nevo: Because I crafted this when I worked at Novo. 622 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:36,580 Nevo: Every time I tell this to founders, it's like, oh, wow, I have so much stuff to do. 623 00:37:36,580 --> 00:37:39,320 Nevo: So, this is going to be actually, I think, pretty informative. 624 00:37:40,300 --> 00:37:50,880 Nevo: And also, you need to understand that to get from zero to one, usually, in any SaaS product, traditional marketing is usually very hard. 625 00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:57,660 Nevo: Like, you know, if I started Posties and the thing that I want to do is SEO, that would be pretty hard. 626 00:37:57,860 --> 00:37:59,780 Nevo: The market is saturated like crazy. 627 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,820 Nevo: Getting to the first pages on Google, it will be... 628 00:38:02,820 --> 00:38:04,280 Nevo: I don't think I can even do this. 629 00:38:06,240 --> 00:38:08,280 Nevo: Maybe ads, if I'm really good at it. 630 00:38:08,540 --> 00:38:11,360 Nevo: But I think traditional is very hard. 631 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:20,200 Nevo: So, what I do usually, I teach people how to do a lot of growth hacking when they just start to get a lot of eyeballs and interest into their product. 632 00:38:20,980 --> 00:38:26,780 Nevo: And like I said, with Reddit, there is a lot of way that you can get tons of views, especially with open source. 633 00:38:26,920 --> 00:38:29,280 Nevo: So, I'll take you to my entire playbook. 634 00:38:30,060 --> 00:38:34,260 Nevo: It's like a weekly playbook, what you need to do every week, basically. 635 00:38:35,100 --> 00:38:41,020 Nevo: So, the first thing is, I write a lot of articles on a website. 636 00:38:41,140 --> 00:38:43,080 Nevo: I don't know if you know this website, it's called dev.to. 637 00:38:43,620 --> 00:38:46,860 Nevo: This is a website for developers, mainly. 638 00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:51,460 Nevo: And the nice thing about this website, it has a very high domain authority. 639 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,900 Nevo: And also, there is a lot of traffic coming in into this website. 640 00:38:57,440 --> 00:39:03,200 Nevo: This is all nice and stuff, and we've seen a lot of other websites with a lot of traffic, that you can publish your articles. 641 00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,460 Nevo: Like Medium, and so on. 642 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:10,040 Nevo: But there is one thing that I particularly paid attention when I used dev.to. 643 00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:15,340 Nevo: Is that, I don't know if you know, but if you open your phone, I think it's mostly for Android phones. 644 00:39:15,860 --> 00:39:21,360 Nevo: But if you open your phone, and you go to Google, you get a lot of suggested articles. 645 00:39:22,380 --> 00:39:23,880 Nesters: It's called Google Discovery, yeah. 646 00:39:24,140 --> 00:39:25,360 Nesters: It's a SEO hack. 647 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:26,640 Nesters: Yeah, a lot of people use it. 648 00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:29,820 Nevo: And dev.to really likes this Google Discovery. 649 00:39:29,820 --> 00:39:32,900 Nevo: Like, Google really likes this dev.to Google Discovery. 650 00:39:33,780 --> 00:39:42,060 Nevo: So, I tell people, you know, the good and the bad is that developers are very technical, but they're not so market-ish. 651 00:39:42,500 --> 00:39:46,120 Nevo: And this gives you an advantage, because you can be better than everybody else very easily. 652 00:39:46,580 --> 00:39:47,380 Nevo: It's not so hard. 653 00:39:48,060 --> 00:39:53,500 Nevo: So, this Discovery feed, it works in the same way as YouTube works, right? 654 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:57,900 Nevo: Like, the only thing that you see is the cover and the title of the article. 655 00:39:58,160 --> 00:39:58,620 Nevo: That's it. 656 00:39:59,220 --> 00:40:05,560 Nevo: So, that means that you can put 10 times more effort than other people, and make really good cover pictures. 657 00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,740 Nevo: So, I make really good cover pictures. 658 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:13,080 Nevo: Like, I use, let's say, now with JGPT, or before with Meet Journey. 659 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:19,140 Nevo: I would go into RunwayML to animate this, put some text, because you can upload it as a GIF. 660 00:40:19,580 --> 00:40:20,320 Nevo: So, it's animated. 661 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:21,840 Nevo: So, it takes more attention. 662 00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:25,320 Nevo: Put a nice text, and a very click-baity title. 663 00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:27,900 Nevo: Developers don't know how to write a click-baity title. 664 00:40:27,900 --> 00:40:32,420 Nevo: They always write things like, how to deploy this on your server. 665 00:40:32,580 --> 00:40:33,220 Nevo: How to do this. 666 00:40:33,700 --> 00:40:36,360 Nevo: They don't do this classic YouTube title. 667 00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:38,420 Nevo: How to get rich, and all this kind of stuff. 668 00:40:38,940 --> 00:40:42,880 Nevo: Like, do these three steps, and become an open source expert. 669 00:40:43,420 --> 00:40:44,440 Nevo: All these kind of titles. 670 00:40:44,680 --> 00:40:46,020 Nevo: Like, they don't use this kind of stuff. 671 00:40:46,540 --> 00:40:48,700 Nevo: So, when you do, people click on your stuff. 672 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:55,740 Nevo: So, I used to upload a lot of articles to Dev.to, and every time I've seen that I'm starting with like 20,000 views. 673 00:40:56,100 --> 00:40:57,160 Nevo: Every week that I upload. 674 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:00,600 Nevo: Now, take me, a person with not a lot of audience. 675 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:01,100 Nevo: Okay? 676 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:02,480 Nevo: Like, with zero audience. 677 00:41:02,940 --> 00:41:03,660 Nevo: That's a lot. 678 00:41:03,900 --> 00:41:05,360 Nevo: Getting 20,000 views every time. 679 00:41:06,460 --> 00:41:06,720 Nesters: Amazing. 680 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:08,740 Nevo: So, that was like the first. 681 00:41:08,860 --> 00:41:16,300 Nevo: And if you want, next time, if you do a live one, not like a call, I can share my screen. 682 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:17,360 Nevo: I can even show the views. 683 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,380 Nevo: So, actually, I can even put it in the chat. 684 00:41:20,980 --> 00:41:25,420 Nevo: So, I would do this every week. 685 00:41:25,420 --> 00:41:26,640 Nevo: That's like the first thing. 686 00:41:27,460 --> 00:41:30,560 Nevo: The second thing is the ready that I do, like, bi-monthly. 687 00:41:30,940 --> 00:41:32,940 Nevo: That I release the new version of Posted. 688 00:41:32,940 --> 00:41:34,700 Nevo: Usually in slash hours slash self-hosted. 689 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:36,920 Nevo: Again, this is the best channel possible. 690 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,020 Nevo: You get so much views. 691 00:41:39,540 --> 00:41:43,200 Nevo: And the more saturated you are in a more saturated market, you will get more views. 692 00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:48,020 Nevo: Like, if, for example, you will take the most used product ever today. 693 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,200 Nevo: I don't know what people use. 694 00:41:51,300 --> 00:41:53,120 Nevo: Link shortening tool or something like that. 695 00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,640 Nevo: Like, things that a lot of people build, you will get a lot more views. 696 00:41:57,100 --> 00:41:59,520 Nevo: Compared to if you invent your own wheel, you know. 697 00:41:59,740 --> 00:42:02,720 Nevo: And create something that people don't understand the value in. 698 00:42:03,140 --> 00:42:07,860 Nevo: But if you take a very saturated one and you just create an open source one, you will get a lot of views. 699 00:42:08,020 --> 00:42:09,780 Nevo: And, you know, a lot of people actually did it. 700 00:42:10,020 --> 00:42:13,740 Nevo: If you know dab.co or dabsh for short linking. 701 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:15,060 Nevo: Became super popular. 702 00:42:15,220 --> 00:42:18,220 Nevo: There were already so many short link before. 703 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:19,720 Nevo: Not just because they are open source. 704 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:20,840 Nevo: Cal.com and so on. 705 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:26,040 Nevo: They just did a very saturated thing and they put it in places like this. 706 00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,040 Nevo: So, I post like two times on self-hosted. 707 00:42:29,660 --> 00:42:31,740 Nevo: Now, the thing is, I always have a call to action. 708 00:42:31,860 --> 00:42:33,800 Nevo: Both in my article and in Reddit. 709 00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:38,220 Nevo: The call to action is always go to my GitHub and give me a star. 710 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:39,980 Nevo: And why this is the call to action? 711 00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:44,840 Nevo: Because you want to go into the GitHub trending feed. 712 00:42:45,340 --> 00:42:50,080 Nevo: So, if you go to github.com slash trending, there is a lot of trending repositories. 713 00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,760 Nevo: Those trending repositories, it's the same thing, you know, if you have a Shopify plugin. 714 00:42:55,260 --> 00:42:57,440 Nevo: And you get a lot of sales in a very short period of time. 715 00:42:57,480 --> 00:42:59,520 Nevo: You become featured on this platform. 716 00:42:59,780 --> 00:43:00,700 Nevo: Same thing with GitHub. 717 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:04,180 Nevo: You get a lot of engagement in a very short period of time. 718 00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,200 Nevo: You will get into the main trending feed. 719 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:09,760 Nevo: So, if you do like all this growth thing, you know, article, Reddit and so on. 720 00:43:10,700 --> 00:43:15,100 Nevo: You don't want to do it in a way that it's like, you know, once every two days. 721 00:43:15,180 --> 00:43:19,200 Nevo: You want to do everything really squeezed to get the most amount of engagement on the same day. 722 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:21,900 Nevo: So, you do the dev.tool, you do the Reddit. 723 00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:25,220 Nevo: Then you can take your article and also put it on Reddit. 724 00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,260 Nevo: But this can be sometimes flagged as self-promotion. 725 00:43:29,860 --> 00:43:31,400 Nevo: So, I also have a trick for this. 726 00:43:31,760 --> 00:43:35,800 Nevo: I just build a... this is easier with dev tool things, not with posties. 727 00:43:36,260 --> 00:43:38,940 Nevo: But I build a bigger use case in the article. 728 00:43:39,460 --> 00:43:43,560 Nevo: So, I take, for example, okay, which popular article can I find? 729 00:43:43,620 --> 00:43:45,420 Nevo: Let's take Superbase for the database. 730 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,420 Nevo: I don't know, Better Oath for the login. 731 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,220 Nevo: Another company, just cherry-picking company. 732 00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:54,920 Nevo: And I write an article with all the companies together. 733 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,860 Nevo: So, it's not really solely focused on me when I write the article, basically. 734 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:06,240 Nevo: So, then, when I post it on different channels, let's say, slash R slash programming, it's not being deleted. 735 00:44:06,740 --> 00:44:10,640 Nevo: Slash R slash programming, just for you to know, Reddit is the most toxic place possible. 736 00:44:10,900 --> 00:44:15,040 Nevo: But I think the most amount of getting, like, tons of views and engagement... 737 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:16,020 Nesters: Yeah, I think we all agree. 738 00:44:17,180 --> 00:44:23,680 Nevo: Because Reddit, you know, and there is another thing I paid attention on Reddit, but I'll just tell you in one second. 739 00:44:23,860 --> 00:44:30,920 Nevo: So, when you post it on Reddit, you'll get the attention from other people also in the subreddit. 740 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:37,900 Nevo: Plus, now you can go post it on X and tag the other companies and hope for a repost. 741 00:44:38,600 --> 00:44:43,880 Nevo: I, for example, consulted into a company called Copilot Kit, if you know them. 742 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:47,060 Nevo: You can build your own copilot, it's like a fronted library. 743 00:44:48,100 --> 00:44:49,560 Nevo: And they use langchain a lot. 744 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,580 Nevo: Our whole strategy was tagging langchain all the time. 745 00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:57,200 Nevo: Let's tag langchain every week, they will like and repost us, and we'll get a lot of traffic. 746 00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:09,160 Nevo: So, you just want to see which one are, like, when you cherry pick the different kind of companies you want to tag, you want to make sure that this is, like, companies that repost. 747 00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,900 Nevo: Like, you need to see their feed if they actually repost people or not. 748 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:14,200 Nevo: So, I do this. 749 00:45:14,860 --> 00:45:19,840 Nevo: I have the Reddit one, I have the Dev.to one, and then you can use influencers. 750 00:45:21,020 --> 00:45:23,680 Nevo: It's a little bit harder, but it can also give you a lot of traffic. 751 00:45:23,820 --> 00:45:26,540 Nevo: There are a few types of things that I usually buy from influencers. 752 00:45:26,740 --> 00:45:35,280 Nevo: It's either a listicle, so they do, like, ten open source libraries that you have to use today, something like this, put you first, and then some other ones. 753 00:45:35,540 --> 00:45:37,060 Nevo: They also send a lot of traffic. 754 00:45:37,580 --> 00:45:40,080 Nevo: Or I can go to bigger influencers. 755 00:45:40,300 --> 00:45:44,280 Nevo: This is mostly with funded companies because it's a little bit more expensive, like Santiago. 756 00:45:45,020 --> 00:45:46,780 Nevo: And you can buy a sponsored tweet from him. 757 00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,100 Nevo: This will also give you, like, tons of engagement. 758 00:45:49,620 --> 00:45:49,920 Nevo: And that's it. 759 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,400 Nevo: You just run it every week, this entire process. 760 00:45:52,980 --> 00:45:55,800 Nevo: I usually get, like, a content writer for, like, $200, $300. 761 00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,280 Nevo: And run it and try to become trending every week on GitHub. 762 00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:00,120 Nevo: That's it. 763 00:46:00,180 --> 00:46:02,120 Nevo: And every time you're trending, you will get a lot more stars. 764 00:46:03,700 --> 00:46:05,880 Nesters: Yeah, I want to ask a question about the listicles. 765 00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:12,300 Nesters: So, you're buying specifically from, like, bloggers in tech space, not from, like, platforms, right? 766 00:46:13,400 --> 00:46:13,980 Nesters: What do you mean? 767 00:46:14,000 --> 00:46:22,020 Nesters: Are you buying directly from... I mean, are you buying directly from some kind of tech influencer, or are you buying from whatever blogs there exist that are technically more well-known? 768 00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:22,540 Nesters: Oh, no, from tech influencers. 769 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:23,460 Nevo: All the time. 770 00:46:23,620 --> 00:46:25,100 Nevo: And I also post a lot of them myself. 771 00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:30,460 Nevo: Because, you know, if you look at my name on Dev.to, you will see that I post a lot of listicles there. 772 00:46:30,460 --> 00:46:37,240 Nevo: Because listicles inherently, because they turn to such a big audience, they attract so many people, basically. 773 00:46:37,820 --> 00:46:37,900 Nevo: So... 774 00:46:37,900 --> 00:46:41,480 Nesters: Yeah, it's often used for SEO, but there's a difference. 775 00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:49,740 Nesters: Sometimes people would take listicles from just high domain authority sites, because basically those will rank at the top on Google. 776 00:46:50,160 --> 00:46:55,340 Nesters: But I think you're actually going to the influencers because it's more like people trust those influencers. 777 00:46:55,340 --> 00:46:57,020 Nesters: You're influencing their trust via proxy. 778 00:46:57,020 --> 00:46:58,280 Nesters: It's not only about this. 779 00:46:58,600 --> 00:46:59,440 Nevo: It's also about this. 780 00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:09,720 Nevo: If you talk about your company only, this turns to a certain amount of audience, a certain size. 781 00:47:09,800 --> 00:47:14,320 Nevo: When you make a listicle that is very generic, very big, you will always get more interest. 782 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:15,920 Nevo: And I've seen this with every listicle I posted. 783 00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:18,880 Nevo: But, of course, the audience will be less laser-focused. 784 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,820 Nevo: It can be even people not in your audience looking at these listicles. 785 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:29,960 Nevo: If you go to Google and you write, I think, open source alternative to SaaS. 786 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,460 Nevo: There is one article I posted in IndieHackers.com. 787 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:34,300 Nevo: You will see. 788 00:47:34,380 --> 00:47:36,260 Nevo: I think it's one of the top ones on Google. 789 00:47:36,820 --> 00:47:41,200 Nevo: I think this article already got like 50,000 views just from the day that it was posted. 790 00:47:41,460 --> 00:47:42,480 Nevo: No SEO or anything. 791 00:47:43,380 --> 00:47:44,060 Nevo: From the day. 792 00:47:44,220 --> 00:47:45,860 Nevo: After that, it kept on getting some. 793 00:47:46,220 --> 00:47:50,680 Nevo: But it's just that listicles are so easy to get so much traffic to you. 794 00:47:52,740 --> 00:47:55,680 Nevo: Especially if they're high authority sources. 795 00:47:55,960 --> 00:47:57,180 Nevo: Yeah, but this is only for SEO. 796 00:47:57,680 --> 00:47:58,660 Nevo: You're talking about SEO. 797 00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,100 Nevo: I'm talking more about push marketing. 798 00:48:00,700 --> 00:48:02,040 Nesters: Yeah, I get it. 799 00:48:02,740 --> 00:48:04,340 Nesters: That's why I wanted to differentiate. 800 00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,740 Nesters: Are you taking it from tech influencers? 801 00:48:06,980 --> 00:48:10,880 Nesters: Because often when people hear about listicles, they think of SEO perspective. 802 00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,720 Nesters: Not about your push marketing perspective, actually. 803 00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,200 Nesters: That's what I wanted to differentiate, actually. 804 00:48:17,780 --> 00:48:21,880 Nesters: You're focused more on this push marketing rather than the SEO marketing. 805 00:48:22,220 --> 00:48:22,880 Nesters: Yeah, definitely. 806 00:48:23,240 --> 00:48:24,320 Nesters: When talking about listicles. 807 00:48:24,740 --> 00:48:27,280 Nevo: With all of them, you mostly measure stars. 808 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,700 Nevo: Because for me, I think stars, of course, it's not money. 809 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:34,720 Nevo: It's like accumulation of all your tweets together. 810 00:48:34,740 --> 00:48:36,040 Nevo: How many likes you got on them, right? 811 00:48:36,360 --> 00:48:41,980 Nevo: You take a tweet and to the amount of likes that you get on your tweet, you can... 812 00:48:41,980 --> 00:48:43,740 Nevo: Ah, okay, if I got this amount of likes... 813 00:48:43,740 --> 00:48:45,540 Nevo: Even though the algorithm is becoming crazy, right? 814 00:48:45,540 --> 00:48:49,640 Nevo: If this amount of likes, then maybe I will get this amount of views. 815 00:48:49,980 --> 00:48:54,080 Nevo: Or this amount of downloads or clones to my repository and so on. 816 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,080 Nevo: So, this is usually you're pushing for stars all the time. 817 00:48:57,340 --> 00:48:59,740 Nevo: It's also a very big thing in credibility. 818 00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:01,980 Nevo: Wow, that's a lot of stars. 819 00:49:02,500 --> 00:49:03,220 Nevo: That's a commit. 820 00:49:03,720 --> 00:49:06,320 Nevo: One day ago, there was a lot of forks, you know? 821 00:49:06,860 --> 00:49:09,980 Nevo: It gives people more trust when they look at your open source. 822 00:49:11,180 --> 00:49:15,620 Nesters: Yeah, I actually think your marketing strategy is impressive. 823 00:49:15,940 --> 00:49:16,580 Nesters: Really smart. 824 00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:19,960 Nesters: The Google Discover, especially like... 825 00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:23,740 Nesters: What people in SEO world obviously would call all this is parasite SEO. 826 00:49:23,980 --> 00:49:30,140 Nesters: You're piggybacking on an authoritative source and you're basically getting your content visible. 827 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,420 Nesters: With maybe your brand included, with your name included, your project included. 828 00:49:34,420 --> 00:49:41,540 Nesters: And obviously, you found that Dev2, which I know the platform exists, but I would barely use it because I'm not as technical. 829 00:49:42,040 --> 00:49:43,000 Nesters: But I know it exists. 830 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:46,700 Nesters: I didn't realize it was so good for the Google Discover. 831 00:49:47,260 --> 00:49:53,960 Nesters: Another boost is potentially coming for your strategy is that Google is testing Google Discover on desktop. 832 00:49:54,720 --> 00:49:57,160 Nesters: So, that could actually boost your traffic even more. 833 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,160 Nesters: So, that's another thing. 834 00:50:00,340 --> 00:50:02,240 Nesters: And I agree about those thumbnails, by the way. 835 00:50:02,240 --> 00:50:08,320 Nesters: You have noticed that my weekly thumbnails actually include the details of the next space, speaker, etc. 836 00:50:08,460 --> 00:50:11,360 Nesters: I try to just get the information in front of people that way. 837 00:50:11,820 --> 00:50:15,320 Nesters: It might not be the best strategy, but I usually try to just... 838 00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:17,400 Nesters: It acts as a call to action, basically. 839 00:50:17,580 --> 00:50:21,120 Nesters: If people want to listen to it, they can actually just click on the link. 840 00:50:21,860 --> 00:50:24,240 Nevo: So, I usually, in the cover picture, I'm trying to... 841 00:50:24,240 --> 00:50:27,180 Nevo: Sometimes the cover picture would not even be so much related to the article. 842 00:50:27,280 --> 00:50:28,380 Nevo: I'm just trying to make it pop. 843 00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,000 Nevo: To look different than other cover pictures. 844 00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,840 Nevo: And especially when I add GIFs. 845 00:50:33,940 --> 00:50:35,240 Nevo: Because nobody adds GIFs. 846 00:50:35,900 --> 00:50:38,900 Nevo: And I think, generally speaking, developers are not so good in marketing. 847 00:50:39,380 --> 00:50:39,860 Nevo: Most of them. 848 00:50:40,020 --> 00:50:47,940 Nevo: Because every time I consult with some open-source company, specifically open-source company, the people that come to the meeting, the two co-founders, usually both of them are technical. 849 00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:55,500 Nevo: I think I never went on a call like this with some founders and one of them was a marketing person. 850 00:50:55,620 --> 00:50:58,540 Nevo: It was like two technical people. 851 00:51:00,440 --> 00:51:02,200 Nevo: So, this is why I think it's even easier. 852 00:51:02,380 --> 00:51:03,760 Nevo: But you need to remember something. 853 00:51:03,900 --> 00:51:05,860 Nevo: And we talked about this at first. 854 00:51:09,200 --> 00:51:10,840 Nevo: Developers, they are not your customers. 855 00:51:11,260 --> 00:51:15,220 Nevo: So, when I do this dev.to staff and so on, they are not your customers. 856 00:51:15,540 --> 00:51:17,020 Nevo: You will get a lot of exposure to them. 857 00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:17,820 Nevo: They will see your tool. 858 00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:19,520 Nevo: You will get $2 million on your Docker. 859 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,620 Nevo: It doesn't mean that they are going to convert to be your customers. 860 00:51:23,000 --> 00:51:25,800 Nevo: That's a specific thing that I should say. 861 00:51:26,500 --> 00:51:32,640 Nevo: Actually, for dev.tool companies, developers are also the people that they sell to. 862 00:51:33,500 --> 00:51:37,440 Nevo: Sometimes, this plays better in that term. 863 00:51:39,900 --> 00:51:41,900 Vlad: I guess Vlad has a question. 864 00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:45,800 Vlad: I'm sorry. 865 00:51:45,860 --> 00:51:47,420 Vlad: I had a question like 15 minutes ago. 866 00:51:47,620 --> 00:51:49,140 Vlad: We have a massive thunderstorm. 867 00:51:50,540 --> 00:51:50,780 Vlad: Okay. 868 00:51:51,220 --> 00:51:53,440 Nesters: Hopefully, you're safe. 869 00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:55,000 Vlad: Yeah, it's fine. 870 00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:59,520 Vlad: So, Neville, I have a very specific question about a product I'm building. 871 00:51:59,820 --> 00:52:03,860 Vlad: And I wanted to partially use that strategy for the enterprise layer. 872 00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:09,620 Vlad: So, I wanted to build a desktop app for, let's say, chatting with a database. 873 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:21,840 Vlad: And a lot of enterprises want to do that connected to their MySQL database or whatever without exposing the database outside of their enterprise. 874 00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:29,500 Vlad: And I wanted for enterprises to make it so that they can actually use the source code themselves instead of just a desktop app. 875 00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:34,000 Vlad: So, how would you do a strategy like this? 876 00:52:34,100 --> 00:52:36,740 Vlad: I'm not that much into marketing, like you just said. 877 00:52:36,900 --> 00:52:37,780 Vlad: I'm more of a dev. 878 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:43,600 Vlad: So, how would you do it for a low-marketing dev? 879 00:52:43,660 --> 00:52:46,180 Nevo: I'll tell you something, and I think this is very popular. 880 00:52:46,520 --> 00:52:49,140 Nevo: I think, in general, it's becoming a more popular thing today. 881 00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:52,060 Nevo: Again, Nestor, don't kill me. 882 00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,820 Nevo: I think, over time, direct marketing is starting to die, in general. 883 00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:56,680 Nevo: Maybe I'm wrong. 884 00:52:57,300 --> 00:53:02,080 Nevo: But in DevTools, branding is the thing that plays the biggest part. 885 00:53:02,420 --> 00:53:03,240 Nevo: Like, long-time branding. 886 00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:06,560 Nevo: Yeah, sorry? 887 00:53:07,340 --> 00:53:08,580 Nesters: Yeah, no, I don't want to kill you. 888 00:53:08,700 --> 00:53:12,120 Nesters: Actually, I've been even saying in SEO, the brand name... 889 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,820 Nesters: It's not about the backlink traffic. 890 00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:17,600 Nesters: It's actually the branding that matters the most nowadays. 891 00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:21,360 Nesters: Whatever you do, you actually want the brand to be featured. 892 00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:25,780 Nesters: I do agree, actually, in many regards. 893 00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,100 Nesters: It is what's happening, yeah. 894 00:53:29,740 --> 00:53:37,440 Nevo: So, generally speaking, from my point of view, it will be very hard for you to just create something and start to sell to enterprises. 895 00:53:37,860 --> 00:53:39,860 Nevo: Not only that the sales cycles are so long. 896 00:53:40,740 --> 00:53:45,760 Nevo: From all the things that I've seen so far, with other companies that I'm working with... 897 00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:47,840 Nevo: Enterprises usually come from word-of-mouth. 898 00:53:48,020 --> 00:53:49,100 Nevo: We ask them, where did you come from? 899 00:53:49,140 --> 00:53:50,040 Nevo: Yes, somebody told us. 900 00:53:50,100 --> 00:53:50,900 Nevo: They don't. 901 00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:58,940 Nevo: Because, you know, when you go to this specific persona in this company, they don't browse DevTools. 902 00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:01,400 Nevo: They don't see your stuff, basically. 903 00:54:01,660 --> 00:54:03,700 Nevo: They don't browse this Reddit subreddit. 904 00:54:04,300 --> 00:54:06,180 Nevo: It's very hard to just get to them like that. 905 00:54:06,240 --> 00:54:09,200 Nevo: The only thing that I can imagine getting to them like that is with outreach. 906 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,320 Nevo: Email outreach, a friend, or something like that. 907 00:54:12,340 --> 00:54:14,280 Nevo: It's very hard to just get to them. 908 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,260 Nevo: And this is why I like... 909 00:54:16,260 --> 00:54:18,060 Nevo: This is how I do with other companies. 910 00:54:18,180 --> 00:54:24,100 Nevo: We just do marketing and growth hacking for the masses, for a big audience. 911 00:54:24,380 --> 00:54:27,320 Nevo: And then we see the enterprise customers coming into the funnel. 912 00:54:27,520 --> 00:54:30,440 Nevo: Also, I generally don't like to work with enterprises. 913 00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:35,160 Nevo: I can understand why people won't, because this is very high-ticket deals, basically. 914 00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:38,980 Nevo: I don't know, it's such a long sales cycle. 915 00:54:38,980 --> 00:54:43,980 Nevo: As an indie hacker, I don't recommend you to start selling to enterprises. 916 00:54:44,180 --> 00:54:47,020 Nevo: I think it's very, very hard, basically. 917 00:54:47,820 --> 00:54:51,860 Nevo: Not only that you need a lot of stuff like SOC2, ESO, and stuff like that. 918 00:54:52,900 --> 00:54:53,780 Vlad: Thank you, Nemo. 919 00:54:55,340 --> 00:54:56,640 Nesters: Yes, I mean, I agree. 920 00:54:56,760 --> 00:54:57,900 Nesters: You basically target the masses. 921 00:54:58,100 --> 00:55:03,160 Nesters: You target the people who are not very close, but they're basically in the space. 922 00:55:03,460 --> 00:55:05,880 Nesters: So they talk to more people in the space. 923 00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:10,380 Nesters: They talk to someone above them in the ISO hierarchy for enterprise, for example. 924 00:55:10,540 --> 00:55:12,420 Nesters: And then those people start talking about it. 925 00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,660 Nesters: And it technically just spreads that way through the network. 926 00:55:16,020 --> 00:55:18,080 Nevo: Generally speaking, I like to just go... 927 00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:23,540 Nevo: There's a lot of mentioning tools also, but I just like to go to X, LinkedIn, and so on and write posties. 928 00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:26,500 Nevo: And see how much UGC content did they get. 929 00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:31,180 Nevo: The more I get, I see more UGC, people just writing about posties. 930 00:55:31,320 --> 00:55:33,480 Nevo: And this is actually mostly developers write about it. 931 00:55:34,240 --> 00:55:37,660 Nevo: I'm happier, I'm feeling, okay, I'm starting to get the brand. 932 00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:44,200 Nevo: I think maybe it will happen in a year or two years from now. 933 00:55:44,340 --> 00:55:46,020 Nevo: But people will say, what should we use? 934 00:55:46,100 --> 00:55:46,940 Nevo: Okay, let's use posties. 935 00:55:47,020 --> 00:55:48,680 Nevo: It's an open source thing, we already know. 936 00:55:49,000 --> 00:55:51,340 Nevo: We know there is an open source thing called posties. 937 00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:53,620 Nevo: I want you to be in this state of mind. 938 00:55:53,800 --> 00:55:57,820 Nevo: I think this takes a lot of time and non-stop marketing that you need to do all the time, basically. 939 00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:04,560 Nevo: This is actually why, before I give it to Prince, because he raised his hand. 940 00:56:05,860 --> 00:56:13,100 Nevo: I think, in general, that it's a lot of people trying to find a quick way to make money. 941 00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:17,340 Nevo: Like, oh, make 10k MRR in a month and stuff like that. 942 00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:19,380 Nevo: And they keep on creating products all the time. 943 00:56:20,060 --> 00:56:22,360 Nevo: Yeah, it works for some people, totally agree. 944 00:56:22,740 --> 00:56:27,800 Nevo: I just think that if people put a little bit more time into their product, make it for a little bit longer. 945 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:30,100 Nevo: They might even have a bigger success. 946 00:56:30,460 --> 00:56:33,140 Nevo: I specifically don't like to create many products. 947 00:56:33,260 --> 00:56:36,520 Nevo: I prefer to take one and invest in it, unless it's not possible. 948 00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:38,860 Nevo: Because, you see, there's no market, there's no people and so on. 949 00:56:39,200 --> 00:56:41,700 Nevo: And grow it and get the brand around it. 950 00:56:41,780 --> 00:56:43,700 Nevo: It's very hard to create so many products. 951 00:56:43,860 --> 00:56:45,900 Nevo: I honestly don't understand how people do this. 952 00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:48,080 Nevo: Like, non-stop product every week. 953 00:56:49,120 --> 00:56:52,020 Nesters: Yeah, that's why I also wanted to do this space as well. 954 00:56:52,120 --> 00:56:56,480 Nesters: Because I just want to also feature different angles from a marketing perspective. 955 00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:58,620 Nesters: Different angles from the audience perspective. 956 00:56:58,940 --> 00:57:01,080 Nesters: And the way you reach the market. 957 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:08,560 Nesters: Obviously, your marketing strategy may be known very well in some industries outside of open source. 958 00:57:08,900 --> 00:57:13,400 Nesters: But you kind of have brought it to open source in a very effective way. 959 00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:14,760 Nesters: Which is really nice to see. 960 00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,080 Nesters: And I think it's just not featuring this angle. 961 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:19,860 Nesters: So maybe some people specifically help. 962 00:57:20,180 --> 00:57:22,380 Nesters: They know the software part, right? 963 00:57:22,380 --> 00:57:24,040 Nesters: But they don't know how to market it. 964 00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:24,900 Nesters: Now, there is a strategy. 965 00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:27,860 Nesters: You could actually go to dev.to and just publish those articles. 966 00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:33,340 Nesters: Even if you don't execute the whole funnel, at least you can leave your mark that way. 967 00:57:33,380 --> 00:57:33,580 Nesters: One thing I want to say. 968 00:57:34,020 --> 00:57:34,320 Nevo: One thing. 969 00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:34,980 Nevo: Very important. 970 00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:36,500 Nevo: I totally forgot about this. 971 00:57:37,840 --> 00:57:40,360 Nevo: You know, the bigger the platform, the smarter it is. 972 00:57:40,680 --> 00:57:43,720 Nevo: So if you take LinkedIn, you take X, and so on. 973 00:57:44,100 --> 00:57:47,440 Nevo: Those platforms that are like super algorithms every day. 974 00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:48,300 Nevo: Changing their algorithms. 975 00:57:48,420 --> 00:57:49,220 Nevo: Don't even know what to do. 976 00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:51,340 Nevo: Like, people with tons of engagement one day after. 977 00:57:51,780 --> 00:57:52,480 Nevo: What the hell happened? 978 00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,740 Nevo: Okay, now we need to investigate again to understand what is the algorithm. 979 00:57:56,440 --> 00:57:58,280 Nevo: Smaller platforms don't have an algorithm. 980 00:57:59,020 --> 00:58:01,340 Nevo: And you can play this to your part, okay? 981 00:58:01,460 --> 00:58:03,780 Nevo: For example, when I post on dev.to, I go to all my friends. 982 00:58:03,860 --> 00:58:05,660 Nevo: Can you please like my post on dev.to? 983 00:58:06,340 --> 00:58:09,780 Nevo: And then I get featured on the main feed, at least for a few seconds. 984 00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:14,500 Nevo: So people can actually have this option that, is it even a good one? 985 00:58:14,880 --> 00:58:18,000 Nevo: You know, because you can post something on X, and it can be an amazing thing. 986 00:58:18,140 --> 00:58:22,460 Nevo: But if the algorithm doesn't like you, it will not even show you a little bit when you just post it. 987 00:58:23,860 --> 00:58:26,460 Nevo: Smaller platforms have this option, basically. 988 00:58:27,500 --> 00:58:28,380 Nesters: Yeah, this is funny, actually. 989 00:58:28,560 --> 00:58:31,740 Nesters: Because Google is a better Reddit search than Reddit is. 990 00:58:31,820 --> 00:58:36,020 Nesters: Like, even though Reddit is a big platform, I hate their own platform. 991 00:58:37,620 --> 00:58:39,560 Nesters: Like, the way I browse there, I just hate it. 992 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:44,120 Nesters: Like, I think Google is better at indexing Reddit and knowing a good content. 993 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:49,140 Nesters: I feel like you can actually use Google to browse Reddit, basically, for what you want to find. 994 00:58:49,140 --> 00:58:52,980 Nesters: And it's much better than trying to browse it on Reddit directly. 995 00:58:53,660 --> 00:58:54,660 Prince: I agree with that. 996 00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:58,020 Prince: I always search something, whatever question, at Reddit. 997 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,400 Nesters: That's the standard, yeah. 998 00:59:00,780 --> 00:59:02,280 Prince: Okay, you had a question, by the way, right? 999 00:59:03,620 --> 00:59:05,440 Prince: Yeah, well, two things. 1000 00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,600 Prince: Well, one thing I just want to clarify. 1001 00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:16,960 Prince: Like, Google Discover, if you're using an Android phone, like I'm using a Pixel, when you swipe right, it's the screen on the left, right? 1002 00:59:17,000 --> 00:59:18,260 Prince: That's Google Discover, right? 1003 00:59:18,780 --> 00:59:21,980 Prince: If it's a suggestion for an article, so it probably is. 1004 00:59:23,060 --> 00:59:30,140 Prince: Yes, articles, if you have like a watch list on, like, stocks, it comes at the top, or maybe some football games or sports games on the weather, maybe. 1005 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:44,920 Prince: It's just interesting that you said you use GIFs, and I've literally never seen anyone have a cover image as a GIF, which seems to be such a, I don't know, kind of like an underrated way to capture attention, that you've discovered and no one else knows about, 1006 00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:45,320 Prince: apparently. 1007 00:59:45,880 --> 00:59:50,680 Nevo: So, a lot of open source companies know about it, because they consulted to, like, 120 last year. 1008 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:55,100 Nevo: But, generally speaking, not a lot of people do it. 1009 00:59:55,720 --> 01:00:00,240 Nevo: Dev.to is actually starting to crack down on this, but they still find some solution. 1010 01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,320 Nevo: They're starting to really limit the amount of megabytes you can upload for a picture. 1011 01:00:04,860 --> 01:00:08,420 Nevo: But still, you know, I reduced the quality, it's shorter, and so on. 1012 01:00:08,940 --> 01:00:11,540 Nevo: It still works, but they're cracking down on this slowly. 1013 01:00:11,540 --> 01:00:15,860 Nevo: But, yeah, definitely, like, you just want to stand out from anybody else. 1014 01:00:16,260 --> 01:00:16,520 Nevo: Always. 1015 01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:24,980 Nesters: Yeah, we were speaking, I opened the Google Discover now, and we were speaking, and I just see Dev.to literally showing up. 1016 01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:26,720 Nesters: The cursor is now free for students. 1017 01:00:26,900 --> 01:00:31,540 Nesters: But as I scroll, only the sponsored posts have the GIFs. 1018 01:00:32,780 --> 01:00:41,320 Nevo: I think they're basically showing you content from websites that you usually visit. 1019 01:00:42,600 --> 01:00:46,520 Nesters: I have not visited the site in, like, two years, probably. 1020 01:00:47,020 --> 01:00:49,160 Nesters: Okay, so they just really like Dev.to. 1021 01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:51,960 Nesters: No, Google is just listening, probably, right now, to the mic. 1022 01:00:52,780 --> 01:00:55,760 Prince: I would not be so surprised. 1023 01:00:57,560 --> 01:00:59,240 Prince: Nev, I have one other question. 1024 01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:04,060 Prince: You know how you said devs aren't your customers? 1025 01:01:04,180 --> 01:01:09,040 Prince: You said, you know, you put a new feature, you get 2,000 downloads every time you have an update. 1026 01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:12,340 Prince: And they'll star it, maybe a few will fork it. 1027 01:01:12,500 --> 01:01:18,300 Prince: But these guys, or girls, are not your customers. 1028 01:01:18,740 --> 01:01:20,840 Prince: And I was just wondering, I guess you're going to get to that. 1029 01:01:21,260 --> 01:01:22,960 Prince: Who are your customers, then? 1030 01:01:23,500 --> 01:01:23,900 Prince: Definitely. 1031 01:01:24,180 --> 01:01:26,740 Nevo: So this is another topic we should cover. 1032 01:01:27,220 --> 01:01:30,780 Nevo: When you create an open source project, you can create two types of open source projects. 1033 01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:33,320 Nevo: The first one is a Dev.to. 1034 01:01:33,320 --> 01:01:39,100 Nevo: So your audience for the open source are developers, but you're also selling to developers. 1035 01:01:39,800 --> 01:01:42,160 Nevo: That's literally what most companies do. 1036 01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:48,140 Nevo: And it's obviously a lot easier, except for the fact that it's very hard to sell stuff for developers, generally speaking. 1037 01:01:48,600 --> 01:01:53,520 Nevo: But that's usually what most companies that I consult do. 1038 01:01:54,260 --> 01:01:55,600 Nevo: The other option is what I said. 1039 01:01:56,100 --> 01:01:58,480 Nevo: There is an open source, but the actual product is a SaaS. 1040 01:01:59,960 --> 01:02:05,360 Nevo: So as you can imagine, there are not a lot of customers in my system that are developers. 1041 01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:06,620 Nevo: They are not. 1042 01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:10,540 Nevo: But there is a lot of people that are using Posties. 1043 01:02:11,140 --> 01:02:13,720 Nevo: So in general, just the fact that so many... 1044 01:02:13,720 --> 01:02:18,780 Nevo: Because if you can go to Posties, just look for the GitHub repository, go to Docker Downloads, you can see. 1045 01:02:19,140 --> 01:02:21,160 Nevo: They have like two and a half million downloads for the Docker. 1046 01:02:22,260 --> 01:02:26,980 Nevo: Just the fact that so many people are using Posties gives you this word of mouth. 1047 01:02:26,980 --> 01:02:30,640 Nevo: Even if you're in a company, you're talking to a developer, there's a market there. 1048 01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:32,540 Nevo: Yeah, I started to sell for Posties. 1049 01:02:32,940 --> 01:02:37,100 Nevo: So I've seen this, because I see that people are trying to talk about this more and more. 1050 01:02:37,480 --> 01:02:39,420 Nevo: And also I see a lot of entrepreneur developers. 1051 01:02:40,080 --> 01:02:42,760 Nevo: There's like entrepreneurs that are still developers. 1052 01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:49,460 Nevo: So they self-host your tool, but then they post on you on X and LinkedIn and so on. 1053 01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:51,760 Nevo: So this really helps marketing. 1054 01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:56,520 Nevo: And also, for me at least, it removes from me the free tier. 1055 01:02:56,520 --> 01:02:58,260 Nevo: I don't have a free tier in Posties. 1056 01:02:58,800 --> 01:03:02,240 Nevo: If somebody wants free, clone it, use it. 1057 01:03:02,540 --> 01:03:04,620 Nevo: If not, you can just come and pay. 1058 01:03:05,760 --> 01:03:08,400 Nevo: So a lot of people just take this one. 1059 01:03:09,100 --> 01:03:11,100 Nevo: And I think it's really, really nice. 1060 01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,540 Nevo: And on the other part, this is what they said about the customers. 1061 01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:18,140 Nevo: You can also have enterprise customers. 1062 01:03:18,460 --> 01:03:23,140 Nevo: I generally don't like to make so much meetings, so I kind of stopped with this. 1063 01:03:25,020 --> 01:03:29,340 Nevo: But you can have a very big company coming to you. 1064 01:03:29,380 --> 01:03:30,760 Nevo: Listen, we need to self-host your stuff. 1065 01:03:31,180 --> 01:03:31,840 Nevo: Sell us support. 1066 01:03:32,320 --> 01:03:33,320 Nevo: We just want your support. 1067 01:03:34,060 --> 01:03:35,320 Nevo: And that can be a very big deal. 1068 01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:37,760 Nevo: Depends on the amount of people in the company and so on. 1069 01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:40,920 Nevo: So that's also from the other side. 1070 01:03:43,100 --> 01:03:43,840 Nesters: Yeah, I guess. 1071 01:03:44,300 --> 01:03:46,760 Nesters: So for the tooling as well. 1072 01:03:47,640 --> 01:04:00,700 Nesters: For the tooling, obviously, for open source tooling, how much does the monetization would end up coming also from some kind of support to the enterprise customers, for example, etc.? 1073 01:04:00,700 --> 01:04:05,300 Nevo: Enterprise support is usually very expensive, especially if you sell to big companies. 1074 01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:06,780 Nevo: It really depends on the company. 1075 01:04:06,900 --> 01:04:13,300 Nevo: But I work with companies that also sell for $800 per month, $900 per month. 1076 01:04:13,300 --> 01:04:16,600 Nevo: You can get into $20,000 per month. 1077 01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:19,280 Nevo: There's so much variation in terms of this. 1078 01:04:19,940 --> 01:04:21,960 Nevo: But usually it's a lot more money. 1079 01:04:23,380 --> 01:04:24,740 Nevo: But you need to provide support. 1080 01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:26,620 Nevo: So usually you wouldn't hire somebody for this. 1081 01:04:27,420 --> 01:04:30,640 Nevo: You can just provide all the support for all the companies. 1082 01:04:31,060 --> 01:04:33,360 Nevo: I generally don't provide enterprise deals. 1083 01:04:33,540 --> 01:04:34,580 Nevo: I'm trying to avoid this. 1084 01:04:35,160 --> 01:04:38,440 Nevo: Even though now we'll see with the new companies that came to me. 1085 01:04:39,200 --> 01:04:42,040 Nevo: But yeah, definitely. 1086 01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:44,020 Nesters: It is an avenue, obviously. 1087 01:04:44,820 --> 01:04:51,160 Nesters: It's almost like you're getting to basically be partially like part-time hired by someone if you do it alone, right? 1088 01:04:51,220 --> 01:04:54,500 Nesters: Because if you get some enterprise deal like that, you're basically just helping them. 1089 01:04:54,960 --> 01:04:56,500 Nevo: There is one more thing that you can get. 1090 01:04:57,020 --> 01:04:59,120 Nevo: And you just need to craft it very good. 1091 01:04:59,620 --> 01:05:02,260 Nevo: And it's not enterprise deal, but self-hosting deal. 1092 01:05:02,800 --> 01:05:06,280 Nevo: So, for example, let's say I'm a hostess on social media scheduling tool, right? 1093 01:05:06,860 --> 01:05:10,400 Nevo: Some customer can come and say, listen, we have this application. 1094 01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,340 Nevo: This application is not a scheduling tool. 1095 01:05:12,460 --> 01:05:13,520 Nevo: We do something else. 1096 01:05:13,920 --> 01:05:17,760 Nevo: We talked about implementing posties as an extension to our startup. 1097 01:05:17,860 --> 01:05:19,440 Nevo: And we want to modify the code and everything. 1098 01:05:19,660 --> 01:05:20,880 Nevo: We don't want to open source it. 1099 01:05:20,980 --> 01:05:22,160 Nevo: We want your full permission. 1100 01:05:22,740 --> 01:05:25,840 Nevo: That's also something that you can do, basically, when you self-host. 1101 01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:28,920 Nevo: So, that's another possibility. 1102 01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:35,460 Nevo: And I had a lot of calls at first when I put this enterprise out. 1103 01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:43,160 Nesters: Okay, so we basically covered the tooling. 1104 01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:44,180 Nesters: We covered the SaaS. 1105 01:05:47,380 --> 01:05:52,960 Nesters: Yeah, I assume there is a question about project maturity in a sense. 1106 01:05:53,260 --> 01:05:54,940 Nesters: Like, do you start with open source? 1107 01:05:55,040 --> 01:05:58,480 Nesters: Or do you sometimes go open source with your existing product? 1108 01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,960 Nesters: And then try to make it into the open source community? 1109 01:06:02,060 --> 01:06:02,980 Nesters: I think that's a good question. 1110 01:06:03,000 --> 01:06:05,220 Nesters: Because that happened with Gumroad, for example, recently. 1111 01:06:05,220 --> 01:06:08,940 Nesters: And it happened maybe not in the most ideal sense initially, I guess. 1112 01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:14,260 Nesters: The commercial license, which you also called not true open source, was not as well received right away. 1113 01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:18,540 Nesters: And then they switched to the MIT license, which is, I guess, very permissive. 1114 01:06:19,020 --> 01:06:23,780 Nesters: So, how to approach that, basically? 1115 01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:25,920 Nesters: What to expect from that? 1116 01:06:25,980 --> 01:06:27,820 Nevo: First of all, you need to understand the persona. 1117 01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:30,200 Nevo: We're not talking about entrepreneur developers. 1118 01:06:30,340 --> 01:06:31,940 Nevo: Let's talk about pure developers. 1119 01:06:32,440 --> 01:06:33,660 Nevo: Developers, in-company. 1120 01:06:33,660 --> 01:06:35,580 Nevo: I was a developer in a company. 1121 01:06:35,940 --> 01:06:37,700 Nevo: People told me, you need to meet with a customer. 1122 01:06:37,820 --> 01:06:38,840 Nevo: I said, I don't meet with customers. 1123 01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:41,140 Nevo: A different type of persona, usually. 1124 01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:43,440 Nevo: A developer is a very different persona. 1125 01:06:44,840 --> 01:06:48,760 Nevo: And when you look at developers, they are very much... 1126 01:06:48,760 --> 01:06:49,860 Nevo: They know what they want. 1127 01:06:50,960 --> 01:06:54,240 Nevo: They will try to pay the least amount of money possible. 1128 01:06:54,900 --> 01:06:58,420 Nevo: And they can smell sleaziness from a kilometer. 1129 01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:03,120 Nevo: So, never, for example, meet a developer with a sales guy. 1130 01:07:03,780 --> 01:07:04,640 Nevo: It will never work. 1131 01:07:05,180 --> 01:07:08,200 Nevo: That's the stupidest meeting possible, basically. 1132 01:07:08,940 --> 01:07:10,600 Nevo: And this is the same thing with open source. 1133 01:07:11,140 --> 01:07:13,400 Nevo: You come and you create an open source. 1134 01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:15,320 Nevo: You put a license on the open source. 1135 01:07:16,040 --> 01:07:19,240 Nevo: And you tell everybody, listen, I created an open source project. 1136 01:07:19,340 --> 01:07:20,120 Nevo: Let's say with Gumroad. 1137 01:07:20,540 --> 01:07:22,180 Nevo: And everybody look, and then they look at the license. 1138 01:07:22,300 --> 01:07:25,000 Nevo: And the license says, listen, sure, it's open source. 1139 01:07:25,100 --> 01:07:27,800 Nevo: But you're not allowed to do this, this, this, this, and this. 1140 01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:28,480 Nevo: And so on. 1141 01:07:28,920 --> 01:07:31,600 Nevo: So, we basically restrict you to do anything. 1142 01:07:31,900 --> 01:07:33,580 Nevo: So, it's basically not an open source. 1143 01:07:33,900 --> 01:07:36,220 Nevo: It's called self-hosted, but it's not open source. 1144 01:07:37,180 --> 01:07:43,080 Nevo: And, obviously, people in the open source community don't appreciate, like, fake stuff. 1145 01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:46,420 Nevo: Doesn't mean that you can do fakes. 1146 01:07:46,660 --> 01:07:49,280 Nevo: Doesn't mean that you can't change your license, okay? 1147 01:07:49,500 --> 01:07:51,100 Nevo: Like, you look at companies like Redis. 1148 01:07:51,340 --> 01:07:53,460 Nevo: You look at companies like Docker and so on. 1149 01:07:53,460 --> 01:07:58,640 Nevo: They changed their license and got rid of their community in the process, okay? 1150 01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:00,000 Nevo: They did it. 1151 01:08:00,060 --> 01:08:01,880 Nevo: They lost a big chunk of their community. 1152 01:08:02,740 --> 01:08:06,220 Nevo: Maybe they made more money in the end, you know, because it was still a necessity. 1153 01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:07,760 Nevo: People still needed to use this. 1154 01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:09,460 Nevo: But they decided to drop their community. 1155 01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,800 Nevo: And I think many open source companies, what they do, they start with an open source. 1156 01:08:14,080 --> 01:08:14,760 Nevo: It's very popular. 1157 01:08:15,300 --> 01:08:18,860 Nevo: Get to some certain amount of points and say, okay, now we need to make money. 1158 01:08:19,480 --> 01:08:22,440 Nevo: Maybe community is not the thing that we are looking for. 1159 01:08:22,440 --> 01:08:26,240 Nevo: And it's happening all the time, basically. 1160 01:08:27,620 --> 01:08:31,120 Nevo: And not only that, there is even... 1161 01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:34,760 Nevo: I don't want to say because I think even people here are using this. 1162 01:08:35,420 --> 01:08:37,300 Nevo: But there is a little bit... 1163 01:08:37,740 --> 01:08:40,620 Nevo: It's called a little bit of, like, more elaborated scam. 1164 01:08:40,740 --> 01:08:41,660 Nevo: It's not really a scam. 1165 01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:43,520 Nevo: You can still use it. 1166 01:08:43,700 --> 01:08:44,980 Nevo: But many open source do it. 1167 01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:47,580 Nevo: So many, many and very big ones, okay? 1168 01:08:48,220 --> 01:08:50,620 Nevo: And just the community doesn't like it so much. 1169 01:08:50,620 --> 01:08:52,620 Nevo: What they do is they take an open source. 1170 01:08:53,420 --> 01:08:57,140 Nevo: And then they declare this as an AGPL3, which is free open source. 1171 01:08:57,640 --> 01:08:57,980 Nevo: Totally. 1172 01:08:58,160 --> 01:08:59,280 Nevo: This is free open source. 1173 01:08:59,640 --> 01:09:02,180 Nevo: AGPL3, MIT, Apache 2. 1174 01:09:02,380 --> 01:09:04,660 Nevo: They are all licenses that declared as open source. 1175 01:09:04,800 --> 01:09:05,800 Nevo: It's really free open source. 1176 01:09:06,500 --> 01:09:07,720 Nevo: But then they take one directory. 1177 01:09:08,580 --> 01:09:09,840 Nevo: Let's say, call it Enterprise. 1178 01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:13,120 Nevo: And they put a different license on the Enterprise folder. 1179 01:09:13,660 --> 01:09:17,360 Nevo: So, they say the Enterprise folder is only for Enterprise customers. 1180 01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:19,500 Nevo: So far, everything sounds okay. 1181 01:09:19,540 --> 01:09:19,960 Nevo: No problem. 1182 01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:21,500 Nevo: Let's not use the Enterprise folder. 1183 01:09:22,180 --> 01:09:25,700 Nevo: But the Enterprise folder is actually imported into the main project, basically. 1184 01:09:26,240 --> 01:09:29,560 Nevo: So, that makes the entire project Enterprise, because it's being imported. 1185 01:09:31,060 --> 01:09:31,940 Nevo: So, when... 1186 01:09:31,940 --> 01:09:36,780 Nevo: I've seen some article that basically saying, like, we approach different companies. 1187 01:09:36,900 --> 01:09:38,760 Nevo: So, the company says, yeah, we will not sue you. 1188 01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:40,660 Nevo: Or you can remove it if you want, and so on. 1189 01:09:41,220 --> 01:09:42,520 Nevo: But you understand what's happening. 1190 01:09:42,860 --> 01:09:47,100 Nevo: Like, the more time passes, this repository becomes not really open source. 1191 01:09:47,100 --> 01:09:52,780 Nevo: And when you look at the downloads of the open source, and so on, you understand it's not for the community. 1192 01:09:53,420 --> 01:09:54,740 Nevo: Now, open source, there is, like... 1193 01:09:54,740 --> 01:09:56,780 Nevo: Usually for open source, there is, like, two types of communities. 1194 01:09:57,580 --> 01:09:58,720 Nevo: There is two types of personas. 1195 01:09:58,840 --> 01:09:59,600 Nevo: There is the community. 1196 01:09:59,940 --> 01:10:03,060 Nevo: Community is people that just literally like open source. 1197 01:10:03,280 --> 01:10:03,920 Nevo: They come. 1198 01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:05,080 Nevo: They contribute code. 1199 01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:06,060 Nevo: They talk to you. 1200 01:10:06,100 --> 01:10:07,400 Nevo: They don't even care about your product. 1201 01:10:07,820 --> 01:10:08,660 Nevo: That's the community. 1202 01:10:09,020 --> 01:10:10,080 Nevo: They want the free open source. 1203 01:10:10,720 --> 01:10:18,980 Nevo: On the other hand, actual business people coming, checking your repository, see all the code deployed, and decide if they want to buy the enterprise from you or not. 1204 01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:20,740 Nevo: So you're still targeting them. 1205 01:10:21,180 --> 01:10:23,420 Nevo: You just get rid of the community in the process. 1206 01:10:23,820 --> 01:10:26,940 Nevo: And I've seen many companies doing such things. 1207 01:10:27,620 --> 01:10:28,760 Nevo: Is it good or bad? 1208 01:10:29,280 --> 01:10:32,180 Nevo: I don't... there is... it's a different discussion. 1209 01:10:32,340 --> 01:10:36,780 Nevo: It really depends on what are your goals, what you're trying to achieve, and so on. 1210 01:10:37,340 --> 01:10:41,880 Nevo: For me, I had a very big discussion on this on Reddit. 1211 01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:45,260 Nevo: So, for example, I wanted to create enterprise features. 1212 01:10:46,200 --> 01:10:51,980 Nevo: So usually the best way to do this is not to create an enterprise directory or another closed source code. 1213 01:10:52,060 --> 01:10:53,400 Nevo: It's to create a plugin system. 1214 01:10:53,820 --> 01:10:55,060 Nevo: That's usually the best thing. 1215 01:10:55,620 --> 01:11:05,280 Nevo: So you create a plugin system, and then you can load a plugin that is closed source into your system, and it doesn't break any license, and people can use your open source as a free open source. 1216 01:11:05,780 --> 01:11:09,760 Nevo: I think this is the best one, and it's the hardest one also. 1217 01:11:11,740 --> 01:11:12,220 Nevo: Yeah. 1218 01:11:14,720 --> 01:11:18,060 Nesters: I mean, it was... yeah, it went well into the detail. 1219 01:11:19,060 --> 01:11:21,620 Nesters: Especially for the developers. 1220 01:11:22,960 --> 01:11:30,220 Nesters: I just was thinking, yeah, because if someone starts a small project, a small tool, should they actually just go open source? 1221 01:11:30,420 --> 01:11:34,160 Nesters: Should they try closed source and then be like, maybe I want to go open source? 1222 01:11:34,980 --> 01:11:43,200 Nevo: But, you know, the biggest problem, and I've seen this now, it's starting to become even more obvious in the market, is that it's very hard to sell to developers. 1223 01:11:43,660 --> 01:11:44,220 Nevo: It's very hard. 1224 01:11:44,300 --> 01:11:47,660 Nevo: There's some things that developers always buy, which is hosting, for example. 1225 01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:49,920 Nevo: Hosting is very popular for developers to buy. 1226 01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:50,880 Nevo: Yeah. 1227 01:11:51,120 --> 01:11:51,940 Nevo: The number one thing. 1228 01:11:52,580 --> 01:11:54,680 Nevo: Even if it's cheaper like Hetzner, it doesn't matter. 1229 01:11:54,840 --> 01:11:56,240 Nevo: People still buy it. 1230 01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:05,860 Nevo: But, you know, even bigger companies, BlankChain, Crue AI, and so on, the building agent stuff, many people are using it. 1231 01:12:06,860 --> 01:12:10,560 Nevo: From what I heard, maybe I'm totally wrong, not a lot of people are paying for it. 1232 01:12:11,500 --> 01:12:17,280 Nevo: So, open source space, sometimes it's really hard, basically, to sell to developers. 1233 01:12:18,460 --> 01:12:21,860 Nevo: You should really think if you want to do this before you... 1234 01:12:22,660 --> 01:12:25,160 Nevo: Like, if you want to sell to non-developers, fine. 1235 01:12:25,420 --> 01:12:26,860 Nevo: But developers, you should really... 1236 01:12:27,700 --> 01:12:38,440 Nesters: Yeah, I guess with the non-developers is that if you have a paid tool and you're going open source, and your target market is non-developers, there's obviously much harder, I guess... 1237 01:12:38,440 --> 01:12:44,080 Nevo: I can tell a very interesting story of a company that I consulted for like a year, basically. 1238 01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:50,540 Nevo: I consulted to a company called Taipei, which is an alternative to Streamlit. 1239 01:12:50,660 --> 01:12:52,840 Nevo: Anybody here know Streamlit, basically? 1240 01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:55,780 Nevo: I do. 1241 01:12:55,780 --> 01:12:56,500 Nevo: Okay. 1242 01:12:57,200 --> 01:13:03,440 Nevo: So, Streamlit, great bot by Snowflake, if I'm not mistaken. 1243 01:13:04,860 --> 01:13:09,680 Nevo: And they provide you with a front-end that you can show different graphs, different things. 1244 01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:12,580 Nevo: You can aggregate a lot of machine learning stuff. 1245 01:13:12,700 --> 01:13:15,160 Nevo: It's really nice, but it's a very old software. 1246 01:13:16,020 --> 01:13:18,840 Nevo: And it's not the best, like, in scalability. 1247 01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:22,320 Nevo: Everybody that uses Streamlit can tell you that it's not the best in scalability. 1248 01:13:22,980 --> 01:13:25,200 Nevo: So, here comes Taipei. 1249 01:13:26,100 --> 01:13:34,520 Nevo: Listen, like, we can solve this problem, obviously, of scalability, machine learning scenarios, all this kind of stuff. 1250 01:13:34,920 --> 01:13:35,380 Nevo: Great. 1251 01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:40,340 Nevo: So, we go to many customers, and these customers, they're using Streamlit, but Streamlit is free. 1252 01:13:40,700 --> 01:13:42,140 Nevo: Remember, because it's front-end. 1253 01:13:42,420 --> 01:13:45,220 Nevo: And front-end is almost free in the market, almost always. 1254 01:13:45,780 --> 01:13:49,080 Nevo: For Next.js, Gatsby, whatever you use, front-end is free. 1255 01:13:49,820 --> 01:13:54,240 Nevo: And we go to these people, and we ask them, okay, you have some problem with Streamlit. 1256 01:13:54,480 --> 01:13:56,320 Nevo: Like, it's slow for you. 1257 01:13:56,720 --> 01:13:58,520 Nevo: So, they tell us, yeah, it's slow. 1258 01:13:59,020 --> 01:14:03,260 Nevo: We are just going to use this as a prototyping tool. 1259 01:14:04,060 --> 01:14:08,020 Nevo: And once we finish with that, we are going to hire a developer. 1260 01:14:08,460 --> 01:14:09,240 Nevo: That was a year ago. 1261 01:14:09,480 --> 01:14:10,460 Nevo: Maybe today a bipecorder. 1262 01:14:10,900 --> 01:14:15,160 Nevo: We hire a developer, and we are going to build our own dashboard with React. 1263 01:14:15,620 --> 01:14:22,280 Nevo: So, we tell them, like, listen, but a React developer will cost you a lot more money to hire. 1264 01:14:22,480 --> 01:14:23,280 Nevo: You will have bugs. 1265 01:14:23,340 --> 01:14:24,040 Nevo: There is a lot of stuff. 1266 01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:30,260 Nevo: But they still don't want to take this in the middle thing, because this is not how the persona usually reacts. 1267 01:14:30,360 --> 01:14:36,820 Nevo: The persona is used to front-end being free, build on it, deploy it, maybe pay for the deployment. 1268 01:14:37,300 --> 01:14:37,760 Nevo: That's it. 1269 01:14:38,140 --> 01:14:42,060 Nevo: So, it's really hard to break this kind of mentality of how developers work. 1270 01:14:42,300 --> 01:14:43,600 Nevo: You know, sell them something like this. 1271 01:14:45,000 --> 01:14:46,040 Nevo: So, yeah. 1272 01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:48,940 Nevo: Bottom line, it didn't work out so good. 1273 01:14:49,440 --> 01:14:52,440 Nesters: Yeah, it reminded me of Vercel, right? 1274 01:14:52,560 --> 01:14:56,920 Nesters: They are selling premium HTML tags, basically. 1275 01:14:56,920 --> 01:15:00,620 Nesters: They are charging money for the image tags on the CDN, basically. 1276 01:15:01,320 --> 01:15:02,360 Nesters: But they are smart. 1277 01:15:02,460 --> 01:15:04,320 Nevo: They understood the developers by hosting. 1278 01:15:04,920 --> 01:15:12,200 Nevo: So, they never created some extra version of Next.js with pro features or some plugins that you can download. 1279 01:15:12,300 --> 01:15:13,380 Nevo: They never did something like that. 1280 01:15:13,380 --> 01:15:16,640 Nevo: All they do is they ask you to pay for hosting, which they know developers pay for. 1281 01:15:17,600 --> 01:15:19,840 Nevo: And I see somebody doesn't like what I say. 1282 01:15:21,020 --> 01:15:23,760 Nesters: No, I think they like the paid HTML tags. 1283 01:15:26,060 --> 01:15:30,760 Daniel: I think another example that I think worth maybe mentioning is like Tailwind. 1284 01:15:30,900 --> 01:15:40,860 Daniel: Tailwind CSS is that instead of selling hosting, they sell these components, which apparently it's something that developers are okay buying. 1285 01:15:40,860 --> 01:15:44,660 Daniel: I think Tailwind is doing... the business side of Tailwind is doing well. 1286 01:15:45,420 --> 01:15:48,840 Daniel: So, I wonder, Nivo, if you have any thoughts on that kind of... 1287 01:15:48,840 --> 01:15:49,800 Daniel: I honestly really doubt it. 1288 01:15:50,440 --> 01:15:52,460 Nevo: I really doubt they are making that good. 1289 01:15:52,520 --> 01:15:59,540 Nevo: I'm sure they are selling, but for a funded company, you know, with all these other alternatives around, let's say ShadCN and stuff like that, that are free. 1290 01:16:00,280 --> 01:16:02,180 Nevo: I really doubt that people are buying... 1291 01:16:02,180 --> 01:16:07,220 Nevo: What people are buying and they bought for years, and I think this is very popular, is to buy a whole template. 1292 01:16:07,220 --> 01:16:12,980 Nevo: I did it many times for many startups, instead of paying a designer or something, to buy like a whole template and use it. 1293 01:16:13,240 --> 01:16:17,260 Nevo: But just buying components, so many libraries, so many reddits. 1294 01:16:17,940 --> 01:16:22,700 Nevo: You know, people today just go to Cursor and just say what they want and it will just make the UI for them. 1295 01:16:22,860 --> 01:16:27,360 Nevo: They don't even, I think, pay a little bit of attention to design. 1296 01:16:28,060 --> 01:16:28,780 Nevo: I don't know. 1297 01:16:29,060 --> 01:16:34,460 Nevo: I believe that they will earn more from enterprise deals rather than... 1298 01:16:34,460 --> 01:16:45,380 Daniel: Yeah, I think that they had, if I remember correctly, because I had been sort of following them at the time when they were discussing how to monetize on sort of as a built-in public thing. 1299 01:16:45,800 --> 01:16:50,940 Daniel: I think just like you, sort of, they shied away from enterprise because they didn't want to go there. 1300 01:16:51,040 --> 01:16:52,860 Daniel: Like, they didn't like that kind of thing. 1301 01:16:52,960 --> 01:16:58,820 Daniel: And sort of one of the options that came up was sort of the selling components. 1302 01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:04,760 Daniel: If I remember correctly, they also considered like doing support and all the other things you mentioned. 1303 01:17:05,200 --> 01:17:06,960 Daniel: But yeah, interesting. 1304 01:17:07,220 --> 01:17:08,260 Daniel: No, I don't know. 1305 01:17:08,420 --> 01:17:10,580 Daniel: My impression is that they're doing well, but of course... 1306 01:17:10,580 --> 01:17:10,940 Daniel: Yeah, no idea. 1307 01:17:11,400 --> 01:17:11,580 Daniel: Yeah. 1308 01:17:12,020 --> 01:17:13,660 Nevo: If they shared, it would be nice. 1309 01:17:14,320 --> 01:17:21,420 Nevo: But even if they did sell pro components for such a big company, because, you know, I think it's the most used framework in the world, basically. 1310 01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:23,860 Nevo: No matter what framework you use for the front end. 1311 01:17:24,840 --> 01:17:26,980 Nevo: I don't think they are making that much amount of money. 1312 01:17:26,980 --> 01:17:28,060 Nevo: Maybe they should. 1313 01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:29,460 Nevo: Maybe they don't need to, you know. 1314 01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:32,780 Nevo: Maybe just in the end, Google will decide to buy them. 1315 01:17:33,040 --> 01:17:41,040 Daniel: Yeah, you're saying that for all the attention they're getting, right, which is literally like pretty much almost like saturated the market for CSS framework. 1316 01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:45,160 Daniel: Like they probably should be doing even more, right? 1317 01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:45,360 Daniel: Yeah. 1318 01:17:45,920 --> 01:17:46,600 Daniel: It's possible. 1319 01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:47,860 Nevo: It's still exposure. 1320 01:17:48,040 --> 01:17:55,160 Nevo: Like, it's still nice for a big company like Google or Facebook to buy Tailwind as they know that they're buying something that's being used everywhere possible. 1321 01:17:55,160 --> 01:17:56,820 Nevo: So maybe that's the best way. 1322 01:17:56,900 --> 01:18:00,160 Nevo: I honestly have no idea what is their... 1323 01:18:00,160 --> 01:18:06,780 Nesters: I have a little bit insight on Tailwind SEO, actually, because I have access to one of the projects. 1324 01:18:06,940 --> 01:18:08,440 Nesters: I'm not going to share too many details. 1325 01:18:09,200 --> 01:18:15,780 Nesters: But something like UI kits and stuff, they do much worse than templates, even if you look at search. 1326 01:18:16,040 --> 01:18:21,580 Nesters: So expecting that they sell very well or a lot is probably... 1327 01:18:21,580 --> 01:18:24,180 Nesters: I'm always also, if I buy them, buying templates. 1328 01:18:24,460 --> 01:18:30,240 Nesters: So I don't think the market for those components is particularly great. 1329 01:18:30,560 --> 01:18:35,160 Nesters: Because I've noticed that the UI kits, etc., they do not get browsed a lot. 1330 01:18:35,240 --> 01:18:37,860 Nesters: Even if you're from the public data, you can check on the SEO. 1331 01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:40,880 Nesters: And they probably don't sell as well either. 1332 01:18:41,180 --> 01:18:45,300 Nesters: Because people usually want a template, but they just want a nice template and then they move on from there. 1333 01:18:45,400 --> 01:18:46,900 Nesters: It's obviously different audiences. 1334 01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:47,700 Nesters: Yeah. 1335 01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:48,420 Nevo: Sorry. 1336 01:18:48,420 --> 01:18:50,200 Nevo: This is even bigger than this. 1337 01:18:50,480 --> 01:18:58,740 Nevo: I have been hosting and paying for one company called Polotno to have a whole editor of canvases and importing pictures and so on. 1338 01:18:59,280 --> 01:19:01,920 Nevo: And I really don't like paying them. 1339 01:19:02,140 --> 01:19:03,480 Nevo: Honestly, I don't like paying them. 1340 01:19:03,740 --> 01:19:04,720 Nevo: There's just no other alternative. 1341 01:19:05,140 --> 01:19:06,580 Nevo: I don't like to pay for frontend. 1342 01:19:06,920 --> 01:19:08,860 Nevo: I think this is a very big notion of developers. 1343 01:19:09,300 --> 01:19:10,820 Nevo: Developers don't like to pay for frontend. 1344 01:19:11,380 --> 01:19:13,360 Nevo: Everybody feels that frontend should be free. 1345 01:19:13,740 --> 01:19:17,600 Nevo: I mean, I'm paying them $1,000 per year, but it's just the frontend. 1346 01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:20,340 Nevo: They don't even host it. 1347 01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:21,900 Nevo: They don't have any expenses, anything. 1348 01:19:22,520 --> 01:19:23,700 Nevo: It's just like a subscription. 1349 01:19:24,020 --> 01:19:26,800 Nevo: And I think developers don't like this so much. 1350 01:19:27,460 --> 01:19:29,320 Nesters: Just like we hate paying for fonts. 1351 01:19:31,000 --> 01:19:34,840 Nesters: Dennis wants to, I guess, speak. 1352 01:19:36,520 --> 01:19:38,940 Nesters: Here, Dennis, you can ask a question now. 1353 01:19:42,070 --> 01:19:42,630 Denis: Sure. 1354 01:19:42,950 --> 01:19:45,250 Denis: I think another good example is Coolify. 1355 01:19:46,010 --> 01:19:49,530 Denis: It's kind of interesting because it's in the hosting space. 1356 01:19:50,210 --> 01:19:53,450 Denis: But it makes developers' hosting life easier. 1357 01:19:54,470 --> 01:19:57,970 Denis: So I think Andres is making some money from it. 1358 01:19:58,330 --> 01:20:07,090 Nesters: Yeah, Coolify basically allows you to self-host a lot of things, including run those functions like AWS Lambda, right? 1359 01:20:07,190 --> 01:20:07,930 Nesters: The serverless. 1360 01:20:08,210 --> 01:20:10,730 Nevo: They're basically an open-source alternative to all this. 1361 01:20:11,230 --> 01:20:15,770 Nevo: I think it's kind of like an open-source alternative to Vercel and stuff like that. 1362 01:20:17,070 --> 01:20:21,930 Nesters: Yeah, I guess I also want Dennis to explain a little bit. 1363 01:20:22,030 --> 01:20:24,150 Nesters: Because I already know the platform. 1364 01:20:24,390 --> 01:20:26,130 Nesters: I just don't know all the use cases. 1365 01:20:29,010 --> 01:20:31,150 Denis: Yeah, I guess he... 1366 01:20:31,150 --> 01:20:37,450 Denis: I think you summarized it well that it's a way to make kind of... 1367 01:20:37,450 --> 01:20:48,070 Denis: I think he took the space of Heroku and such things that developers really needed and are no longer a good possibility. 1368 01:20:48,470 --> 01:20:52,110 Denis: So I wanted to mention something else about it. 1369 01:20:52,450 --> 01:20:55,270 Denis: I think he's also accepting donations. 1370 01:20:55,730 --> 01:20:59,690 Denis: Maybe that's even most of his money. 1371 01:20:59,950 --> 01:21:00,310 Denis: Oh, yeah. 1372 01:21:01,290 --> 01:21:02,990 Nesters: Donations and sponsors. 1373 01:21:03,490 --> 01:21:05,530 Nevo: Yeah, how relevant it is in open-source. 1374 01:21:05,530 --> 01:21:06,210 Nevo: Very. 1375 01:21:06,390 --> 01:21:07,230 Nevo: And I don't like it. 1376 01:21:07,290 --> 01:21:08,850 Nevo: I don't have donations in open-source. 1377 01:21:09,510 --> 01:21:10,750 Nevo: Generally speaking, it's just me. 1378 01:21:10,830 --> 01:21:12,190 Nevo: I don't like this concept so much. 1379 01:21:13,490 --> 01:21:14,770 Nevo: How well does it work? 1380 01:21:14,870 --> 01:21:18,410 Nevo: How well would that work for a person who is actually developing tools? 1381 01:21:18,650 --> 01:21:21,210 Nevo: You just put on your GitHub that you're accepting donation. 1382 01:21:21,630 --> 01:21:23,850 Nevo: Which I don't like it so much because I don't feel it's donation. 1383 01:21:23,990 --> 01:21:26,170 Nevo: I just feel like it's... It's not donation. 1384 01:21:26,310 --> 01:21:27,270 Nevo: It's mostly like sponsorship. 1385 01:21:27,810 --> 01:21:28,630 Nevo: It's not really donation. 1386 01:21:29,810 --> 01:21:35,670 Nevo: You just like, OK, if you pay me this amount of money per month, I will put your logo on the main readme.md file. 1387 01:21:35,850 --> 01:21:41,370 Nevo: If you pay me this amount of money per month, I'll put you on the main page of the website and so on. 1388 01:21:41,910 --> 01:21:42,570 Nevo: This is sponsorship. 1389 01:21:43,210 --> 01:21:44,610 Nevo: I generally don't like it. 1390 01:21:44,690 --> 01:21:51,510 Nevo: I feel like it's making your company smaller when you start to ask because you don't never see like a bigger company asking for sponsorship. 1391 01:21:52,250 --> 01:21:53,610 Nevo: Generally speaking, I don't like it. 1392 01:21:53,610 --> 01:21:59,530 Nevo: But here, I think this is the main thing for him to make money on his project. 1393 01:22:02,850 --> 01:22:04,830 Nevo: So you can definitely do this. 1394 01:22:05,790 --> 01:22:07,010 Nevo: It's another form. 1395 01:22:08,190 --> 01:22:09,610 Nevo: I just feel that it's... 1396 01:22:11,170 --> 01:22:13,730 Nevo: I would just prefer to have this on the website. 1397 01:22:13,910 --> 01:22:14,650 Nevo: Here is a page. 1398 01:22:14,690 --> 01:22:15,370 Nevo: You can pay me. 1399 01:22:15,470 --> 01:22:16,330 Nevo: Here is a checkout. 1400 01:22:16,650 --> 01:22:18,850 Nevo: You can just pay me this amount of money. 1401 01:22:18,910 --> 01:22:19,490 Nevo: I will do it for you. 1402 01:22:19,550 --> 01:22:20,510 Nevo: This amount of money. 1403 01:22:20,770 --> 01:22:22,750 Nevo: Mostly like a directory or something like that. 1404 01:22:22,750 --> 01:22:24,750 Nevo: I don't like that it's called donation because... 1405 01:22:25,870 --> 01:22:27,090 Nevo: This is only me, right? 1406 01:22:27,170 --> 01:22:28,650 Nevo: But I feel that it's not a donation. 1407 01:22:29,010 --> 01:22:31,170 Nevo: It's just a service that you're providing for money. 1408 01:22:33,030 --> 01:22:36,470 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I also don't like that kind of idea that you're transferring. 1409 01:22:36,710 --> 01:22:40,430 Nesters: If I would be talking about donation, I would consider that that's a donation. 1410 01:22:40,570 --> 01:22:42,030 Nesters: Like there's no strings attached. 1411 01:22:43,150 --> 01:22:49,870 Nesters: It's hard to disconnect that because you always expect there's some kind of reciprocity based on the person giving you money. 1412 01:22:50,030 --> 01:22:51,730 Nesters: That you're kind of returning something in the favor. 1413 01:22:51,730 --> 01:22:59,530 Nesters: Now, I don't mind if someone's technically donating something if I already provided a lot of some kind of useful information, advice. 1414 01:22:59,710 --> 01:23:01,750 Nesters: And I feel like if someone donates for that... 1415 01:23:01,750 --> 01:23:06,010 Nesters: Actually, that's why I even had a randomly left donation page up for me. 1416 01:23:06,070 --> 01:23:08,130 Nesters: And some people donated because I just helped them out. 1417 01:23:08,250 --> 01:23:09,450 Nesters: And I was like, okay, that's fine. 1418 01:23:09,710 --> 01:23:15,370 Nesters: But I necessarily wouldn't, I guess, also feel comfortable if a completely random person would donate to me. 1419 01:23:15,450 --> 01:23:17,690 Nesters: And I did not feel like I interacted with them. 1420 01:23:17,790 --> 01:23:19,510 Nesters: I get what you mean in that context. 1421 01:23:19,510 --> 01:23:24,890 Nesters: That even just the donation not as a sponsorship sometimes doesn't feel right in a way. 1422 01:23:25,030 --> 01:23:27,870 Nevo: Listen, I know that a lot of people, this is their main revenue. 1423 01:23:28,130 --> 01:23:31,570 Nevo: And they make actually a lot of money from donation because you can go to GitHub. 1424 01:23:32,170 --> 01:23:33,030 Nevo: Let's not call it donation. 1425 01:23:33,170 --> 01:23:34,430 Nevo: Actually, GitHub also don't call it donation. 1426 01:23:34,550 --> 01:23:35,250 Nevo: Let's call it sponsorship. 1427 01:23:35,950 --> 01:23:36,810 Nevo: So they go to GitHub. 1428 01:23:36,810 --> 01:23:37,690 Nevo: Yeah, they call it sponsorship. 1429 01:23:38,030 --> 01:23:38,970 Nevo: And they use sponsorship. 1430 01:23:39,550 --> 01:23:42,950 Nevo: And then it's like, it's not that there is like one-time payment sponsorship. 1431 01:23:43,090 --> 01:23:44,110 Nevo: It's also like recurring. 1432 01:23:44,430 --> 01:23:46,910 Nevo: So it's like you have an MRR on your sponsorship, you know. 1433 01:23:47,590 --> 01:23:48,310 Nevo: It is. 1434 01:23:48,390 --> 01:23:49,850 Nevo: I just generally don't like the idea. 1435 01:23:49,990 --> 01:23:50,990 Nevo: But a lot of people do it. 1436 01:23:51,690 --> 01:24:01,270 Nevo: Like if you check one of the tweets of Andreas, the founder of Codify, you'll see he has a nice MRR from sponsorships. 1437 01:24:02,830 --> 01:24:06,330 Nesters: Yeah, I guess I would prefer they would not be called sponsorships then on GitHub. 1438 01:24:06,590 --> 01:24:09,990 Nesters: I'd actually prefer they would be more neutral towards like a donation or something. 1439 01:24:10,070 --> 01:24:11,750 Nesters: I just like some kind of... 1440 01:24:11,750 --> 01:24:15,690 Nesters: Like just they wouldn't be called sponsorship because that implies that you're actually returning something. 1441 01:24:16,710 --> 01:24:19,310 Nesters: In a way, in a return that you're sponsoring someone. 1442 01:24:20,090 --> 01:24:20,210 Nevo: Yeah. 1443 01:24:20,610 --> 01:24:27,050 Nevo: And by the way, when I worked at Novo, sponsorship was one of our marketing strategies. 1444 01:24:27,490 --> 01:24:31,810 Nevo: We go to fund open source projects and they put their logo on their GitHub. 1445 01:24:33,270 --> 01:24:35,350 Nevo: Did that work as a marketing? 1446 01:24:35,990 --> 01:24:36,890 Nevo: Yeah, as a marketing. 1447 01:24:37,130 --> 01:24:39,730 Nevo: This was one of the marketing approaches to get traffic. 1448 01:24:39,730 --> 01:24:51,010 Nevo: For example, there was one open source repository that was also sending notification, but it was like stateless notification. 1449 01:24:51,130 --> 01:24:53,190 Nevo: It was just a library to send notifications for Python. 1450 01:24:53,850 --> 01:24:54,790 Nevo: Tons of you every month. 1451 01:24:55,130 --> 01:24:59,910 Nevo: We paid him $200 every month to have Novo on the bottom, basically. 1452 01:25:00,290 --> 01:25:02,150 Nevo: It's a marketing strategy, totally. 1453 01:25:03,690 --> 01:25:04,090 Nevo: Yeah. 1454 01:25:04,510 --> 01:25:12,850 Nevo: I think from the people that actually, you know, paying for the sponsorship, they do it strategically, usually. 1455 01:25:13,750 --> 01:25:19,130 Nevo: Some of them really like... I worked for Novo, so they funded PNPM because they used it and they really like it. 1456 01:25:19,330 --> 01:25:20,410 Nevo: That feels more like donation. 1457 01:25:20,790 --> 01:25:23,550 Nevo: But the other stuff we did was actually from marketing stuff. 1458 01:25:24,070 --> 01:25:28,610 Nevo: And by the way, also this PNPM, it's also marketing in the end because they put our logo. 1459 01:25:28,610 --> 01:25:35,110 Nevo: It was coming from a different approach, but it still was marketing in the end. 1460 01:25:37,430 --> 01:25:41,190 Nesters: Everything we see online, all the logos we see, it's all marketing. 1461 01:25:41,970 --> 01:25:43,230 Nesters: Someone's paying for it. 1462 01:25:43,510 --> 01:25:44,530 Nevo: I'll give you an example. 1463 01:25:44,530 --> 01:25:56,610 Nevo: I'm sure 100% that if I open sponsorships on my GitHub, many, especially social media agencies will come and ask for sponsorship, like to sponsor this, to have their logo there. 1464 01:25:56,810 --> 01:25:59,810 Nevo: Because this page gets a lot of traffic, basically. 1465 01:26:01,210 --> 01:26:06,610 Nesters: Okay, so people who want to accept money that way, that's another avenue for them. 1466 01:26:06,890 --> 01:26:07,030 Nesters: Yeah. 1467 01:26:07,330 --> 01:26:07,770 Nesters: Obviously. 1468 01:26:08,230 --> 01:26:10,470 Nesters: If you have a lot of traffic on GitHub, definitely. 1469 01:26:10,470 --> 01:26:11,470 Nesters: Exactly. 1470 01:26:11,990 --> 01:26:15,650 Nesters: Which you need to start using your marketing playbook. 1471 01:26:16,050 --> 01:26:18,290 Nevo: By the way, one more thing before we give it to Vlad. 1472 01:26:18,550 --> 01:26:22,210 Nevo: One thing I forgot to say about marketing, that this is like an open source superpower. 1473 01:26:22,870 --> 01:26:26,790 Nevo: There is a lot of open source directories. 1474 01:26:26,970 --> 01:26:27,150 Nevo: A lot. 1475 01:26:27,350 --> 01:26:34,890 Nevo: It's like awesome Next.js, awesome Gatsby, awesome AI, and so on. 1476 01:26:34,890 --> 01:26:41,070 Nevo: You can actually list your open source repository and the website in many of these directories. 1477 01:26:41,810 --> 01:26:44,710 Nevo: Now, I know that GitHub itself is a no-follow link. 1478 01:26:45,270 --> 01:26:47,230 Nevo: I think it's still being calculated many times. 1479 01:26:47,690 --> 01:26:50,650 Nevo: But many of these websites also aggregate it to a different website. 1480 01:26:51,130 --> 01:26:52,730 Nevo: These websites also get a lot of traffic. 1481 01:26:53,330 --> 01:26:59,730 Nevo: So, for example, I put mine in awesome open source, awesome self-hosted. 1482 01:26:59,990 --> 01:27:00,830 Nevo: You can Google this. 1483 01:27:00,830 --> 01:27:04,450 Nevo: The GitHub itself has a huge domain authority. 1484 01:27:05,270 --> 01:27:08,730 Nevo: And their website, they also render the text after that, except for this. 1485 01:27:08,850 --> 01:27:10,690 Nevo: They also have a very high domain authority. 1486 01:27:11,270 --> 01:27:16,150 Nevo: So, you know that if you make an open source project, you are entitled. 1487 01:27:16,370 --> 01:27:23,390 Nevo: Immediately, you will get very high domain authority links, which is pretty cool in open source. 1488 01:27:23,590 --> 01:27:23,910 Nesters: Yeah. 1489 01:27:24,490 --> 01:27:26,910 Nesters: And the no-follow links. 1490 01:27:26,910 --> 01:27:37,530 Nesters: It doesn't matter in a sense that, first of all, whoever is aggregating, using those lists to create their lists and their resources, already can mention your tools from that list. 1491 01:27:37,690 --> 01:27:39,770 Nesters: So, they will actually provide you free backlinks. 1492 01:27:40,490 --> 01:27:51,810 Nesters: And on top of it, even the no-follow links, anyway, if they start checking your brand, etc., after seeing your link there, that is brand search, which actually helps Google signal that that's a relevant tool. 1493 01:27:51,810 --> 01:28:00,550 Nesters: There's multiple mechanisms, different parts of the Google algorithm as well, that actually end up helping you with Google ranking as well. 1494 01:28:00,650 --> 01:28:01,450 Nevo: There's so many. 1495 01:28:01,670 --> 01:28:05,790 Nevo: If you just go to GitHub, you just write the name in the search, awesome. 1496 01:28:06,610 --> 01:28:07,690 Nevo: There's so many you can list. 1497 01:28:07,790 --> 01:28:11,370 Nevo: And if you're building something with AI, you usually have even more. 1498 01:28:14,430 --> 01:28:16,830 Nesters: I mean, yeah, everyone's building AI now. 1499 01:28:16,990 --> 01:28:18,990 Nesters: So, Vlad, take it over with your question. 1500 01:28:19,870 --> 01:28:23,870 Vlad: Yeah, let's say you wake up tomorrow and nobody knows who you are. 1501 01:28:24,150 --> 01:28:26,170 Vlad: You're starting a project with zero stars. 1502 01:28:26,270 --> 01:28:27,090 Vlad: You have zero followers. 1503 01:28:27,610 --> 01:28:34,310 Vlad: What do the first four to six weeks look like for you if you want to build something and market it? 1504 01:28:35,030 --> 01:28:37,490 Nevo: So, first of all, obviously, you need a product. 1505 01:28:37,690 --> 01:28:39,370 Nevo: So, you have to get something out. 1506 01:28:39,510 --> 01:28:41,690 Nevo: You can make like an MVP. 1507 01:28:42,210 --> 01:28:48,150 Nevo: What I suggest to people in open source usually is because this is where this is so interesting. 1508 01:28:48,550 --> 01:28:52,290 Nevo: Like, you know, for example, let's say you want to build a link shortening tool. 1509 01:28:52,650 --> 01:29:00,170 Nevo: If you build it in SaaS, you have almost no opportunity there because it's so saturated market. 1510 01:29:00,850 --> 01:29:03,830 Nevo: But if you make it in open source, this is the total opposite. 1511 01:29:04,590 --> 01:29:08,490 Nevo: Huge market, they're just looking for this open source because there is no open source. 1512 01:29:08,490 --> 01:29:14,450 Nevo: So, I would take something, build something, obviously, and then craft the readme.md of your GitHub. 1513 01:29:14,810 --> 01:29:18,690 Nevo: Your readme.md of your GitHub is actually your marketing. 1514 01:29:18,910 --> 01:29:26,310 Nevo: Like, you know, in open, usually when you look at SaaS, then you have your website and you have your SaaS dashboard and stuff. 1515 01:29:26,770 --> 01:29:29,710 Nevo: In open source, we usually call the website the marketing website. 1516 01:29:30,230 --> 01:29:33,570 Nevo: The landing page usually is the GitHub readme.md file. 1517 01:29:34,070 --> 01:29:37,550 Nevo: So, you need to craft your readme.md file to be amazing. 1518 01:29:38,030 --> 01:29:42,550 Nevo: Put all the features, what is the technology, what you're using, link to the docs. 1519 01:29:43,150 --> 01:29:45,330 Nevo: In open source, you always have to have docs. 1520 01:29:45,930 --> 01:29:49,650 Nevo: Even if I am not in... like Posties is a social media scheduling tool. 1521 01:29:50,050 --> 01:29:52,430 Nevo: I need to have the docs on how to deploy it. 1522 01:29:52,770 --> 01:29:53,550 Nevo: You have to do this. 1523 01:29:54,150 --> 01:29:55,450 Nevo: You have a link to your docs. 1524 01:29:56,250 --> 01:29:57,950 Nevo: My docs is awful, by the way. 1525 01:29:58,010 --> 01:30:02,530 Nevo: I'm so lazy and crafting because it's very hard to maintain docs all the time. 1526 01:30:03,030 --> 01:30:05,950 Nevo: And you know that you are building something for people that are not paying. 1527 01:30:05,950 --> 01:30:08,270 Nevo: So, it's really hard, but you need to maintain it all the time. 1528 01:30:08,570 --> 01:30:09,670 Nevo: You need to build your own docs. 1529 01:30:11,030 --> 01:30:13,530 Nevo: Docker is usually a very good thing to do. 1530 01:30:13,970 --> 01:30:17,930 Nevo: Even though some people, for example, they just use Next.js. 1531 01:30:18,390 --> 01:30:21,330 Nevo: So, they say to themselves, Next.js is easy. 1532 01:30:21,630 --> 01:30:24,350 Nevo: It's just a few command lines to run. 1533 01:30:24,850 --> 01:30:27,170 Nevo: It's still better to have a Docker, basically. 1534 01:30:28,050 --> 01:30:30,390 Nevo: So, you have a Docker with a version and everything. 1535 01:30:30,390 --> 01:30:38,330 Nevo: And then you go to a place like reddit.com and you just post your repository there. 1536 01:30:38,830 --> 01:30:41,010 Nevo: What I suggest is the same thing I do with dev.to. 1537 01:30:41,070 --> 01:30:44,150 Nevo: Get a few upvotes in Reddit from friends and stuff like that after you post. 1538 01:30:44,530 --> 01:30:48,450 Nevo: You get a huge visibility compared to if you don't put anything. 1539 01:30:50,470 --> 01:30:51,350 Nevo: So, yeah. 1540 01:30:51,450 --> 01:30:51,910 Nevo: And that's it. 1541 01:30:52,270 --> 01:30:56,850 Nevo: And then, you know, I posted posties and I became trending. 1542 01:30:57,290 --> 01:31:02,130 Nevo: You know, when you go to a subreddit like rsselfhosted, it's mostly the same audience. 1543 01:31:02,650 --> 01:31:06,150 Nevo: So, the first time you put it there, you get the most amount of views. 1544 01:31:06,450 --> 01:31:10,750 Nevo: Like, if it's something that is really good, you get hundreds of thousands of views. 1545 01:31:11,370 --> 01:31:14,650 Nevo: Every time you keep on putting it there, you still get a lot of views. 1546 01:31:14,730 --> 01:31:18,090 Nevo: Not that much, but it's usually the same audience that see you all the time. 1547 01:31:18,510 --> 01:31:21,750 Nevo: So, it's not as easy as the first time when you post it there. 1548 01:31:22,150 --> 01:31:26,110 Nevo: So, this is like a whole thing that you can do so fast. 1549 01:31:26,110 --> 01:31:30,790 Nevo: Build something really fast, post it already, get tons of traffic and a lot of people. 1550 01:31:31,010 --> 01:31:35,450 Nevo: I also use... usually in open source, it's very popular to have a Discord. 1551 01:31:35,650 --> 01:31:37,030 Nevo: Like, we have the posties Discord. 1552 01:31:38,050 --> 01:31:41,090 Nevo: Honestly, I hate Discord, but we have the posties Discord. 1553 01:31:41,450 --> 01:31:44,950 Nevo: And so many developers are joining every day, basically. 1554 01:31:45,290 --> 01:31:48,630 Nevo: Also to ask about questions about open source and so on. 1555 01:31:49,350 --> 01:31:51,170 Nevo: So, yeah. 1556 01:31:51,210 --> 01:31:51,650 Nevo: That's it. 1557 01:31:52,130 --> 01:31:52,730 Nevo: Very easy. 1558 01:31:52,730 --> 01:31:53,370 Nesters: Okay. 1559 01:31:54,210 --> 01:31:56,690 Nesters: So, I guess I want to ask two questions regarding this. 1560 01:31:57,530 --> 01:32:00,690 Nesters: So, okay, they were having zero followers. 1561 01:32:00,790 --> 01:32:04,130 Nesters: Someone's having zero followers, zero everything, and they start this project. 1562 01:32:04,910 --> 01:32:13,130 Nesters: How much support they should expect to provide in terms of issues showing up on the project? 1563 01:32:13,410 --> 01:32:14,290 Nesters: Errors, etc. 1564 01:32:14,470 --> 01:32:16,370 Nesters: The pull requests that need to be made. 1565 01:32:17,150 --> 01:32:18,890 Nesters: And also on the Discord part. 1566 01:32:18,950 --> 01:32:21,950 Nesters: If you set up a Discord community for your project, for example. 1567 01:32:21,950 --> 01:32:24,890 Nesters: How much effort does it take? 1568 01:32:25,010 --> 01:32:26,010 Nesters: And how do you feel about it? 1569 01:32:26,110 --> 01:32:26,890 Nesters: Like, what to expect? 1570 01:32:27,250 --> 01:32:28,590 Nevo: I can't explain. 1571 01:32:28,810 --> 01:32:32,090 Nevo: I don't even provide a little bit of what I need. 1572 01:32:32,170 --> 01:32:38,550 Nevo: Listen, the problem is that I get at least 20 people joining every day to the Discord. 1573 01:32:39,550 --> 01:32:44,070 Nevo: Everyone who joins, immediately joins because they want to open a ticket. 1574 01:32:44,250 --> 01:32:45,450 Nevo: They want to ask something. 1575 01:32:45,950 --> 01:32:48,630 Nevo: I can't handle 20 tickets per day, obviously. 1576 01:32:48,630 --> 01:32:53,170 Nevo: So first, it's called a support channel. 1577 01:32:53,310 --> 01:32:55,490 Nevo: I changed the name of the channel to be Community Support. 1578 01:32:55,730 --> 01:32:57,770 Nevo: Because, honestly, I can't handle this. 1579 01:32:57,930 --> 01:32:59,650 Nevo: The support tickets are insane. 1580 01:32:59,890 --> 01:33:03,670 Nevo: Now, the better your documentation is, the better the Docker is. 1581 01:33:05,230 --> 01:33:07,210 Nevo: Obviously, you will have less support tickets. 1582 01:33:07,350 --> 01:33:09,350 Nevo: And also, it really depends on your open source. 1583 01:33:09,650 --> 01:33:12,330 Nevo: For me, it's an open source social media scheduling tool. 1584 01:33:12,610 --> 01:33:17,950 Nevo: It means that for every one of the platforms that somebody adds, they need to approve the permission. 1585 01:33:19,590 --> 01:33:22,370 Nevo: Many times, they are like, I don't understand why it's not working. 1586 01:33:22,470 --> 01:33:23,270 Nevo: I approve the permission. 1587 01:33:23,390 --> 01:33:27,110 Nevo: No, because there was permission number 2 and 3 that you didn't approve. 1588 01:33:27,210 --> 01:33:28,070 Nevo: You approved the other ones. 1589 01:33:28,490 --> 01:33:29,350 Nevo: It's like unlimited. 1590 01:33:29,870 --> 01:33:31,890 Nevo: It's just impossible to solve all this. 1591 01:33:32,770 --> 01:33:33,370 Nevo: And it's really hard. 1592 01:33:33,550 --> 01:33:35,230 Nevo: And Discord is not making it any easier. 1593 01:33:35,450 --> 01:33:39,870 Nevo: Because Discord was embraced by open source products. 1594 01:33:40,050 --> 01:33:44,450 Nevo: Most of the open source projects out there are using Discord. 1595 01:33:44,750 --> 01:33:46,590 Nevo: But Discord is not good for support at all. 1596 01:33:47,230 --> 01:33:50,350 Nevo: You need to build your own stuff in order for it to work better. 1597 01:33:51,330 --> 01:33:59,390 Nevo: Generally speaking, I think people that are going to build some things around Discord, like tools around Discord, are going to make a lot of money in general. 1598 01:34:00,230 --> 01:34:01,690 Nevo: There's a big problem there. 1599 01:34:03,050 --> 01:34:06,730 Nevo: So, for your question, my support is not the best. 1600 01:34:08,610 --> 01:34:11,830 Nesters: But you mentioned that you're technically trying to outsource it to the community. 1601 01:34:11,830 --> 01:34:18,390 Nesters: As the project grows, it obviously makes sense that the community usually can provide a lot of the support. 1602 01:34:19,370 --> 01:34:23,090 Nesters: Let's say that many tickets remain open. 1603 01:34:23,430 --> 01:34:24,670 Nesters: So you just don't care about them? 1604 01:34:25,370 --> 01:34:31,930 Nesters: Does it have any negative reaction from the community, from people? 1605 01:34:32,350 --> 01:34:43,710 Nesters: Because obviously a lot of things, when people try to protect their brand and also their own name, they're trying to avoid those negative interactions if they come up for it. 1606 01:34:44,050 --> 01:34:47,950 Nevo: Many times, listen, many people I see a lot of times say, it's not possible to self-host posts. 1607 01:34:49,290 --> 01:34:50,970 Nevo: They write it, of course it's possible. 1608 01:34:51,350 --> 01:34:54,690 Nevo: I'm running it right on my server, so of course it's possible. 1609 01:34:55,150 --> 01:35:00,730 Nevo: But they're stacking something in some configuration or something that they can do, and they post about it somewhere on Reddit or whatever. 1610 01:35:01,170 --> 01:35:03,190 Nevo: But most of the people are very happy with it. 1611 01:35:03,190 --> 01:35:07,730 Nevo: I didn't tell you, this post got almost, I think, a million views. 1612 01:35:08,790 --> 01:35:13,030 Nevo: I made a post on reddit.com on 1st April. 1613 01:35:13,430 --> 01:35:16,070 Nevo: And I made a post like, I'm closed-sourcing posties. 1614 01:35:16,590 --> 01:35:18,050 Nevo: And I wrote a whole post. 1615 01:35:18,110 --> 01:35:21,410 Nevo: It was a very hard year, we are going to closed-source posties. 1616 01:35:22,130 --> 01:35:23,970 Nevo: If you want, please fork it now. 1617 01:35:24,390 --> 01:35:26,470 Nevo: I can send you this post. 1618 01:35:27,670 --> 01:35:29,230 Nevo: I shat my pants. 1619 01:35:30,330 --> 01:35:31,070 Nevo: People are ready. 1620 01:35:31,330 --> 01:35:31,790 Nevo: So funny. 1621 01:35:31,910 --> 01:35:33,430 Nevo: I can imagine the comments. 1622 01:35:34,090 --> 01:35:34,890 Nevo: It was so funny. 1623 01:35:35,050 --> 01:35:40,130 Nevo: People say like, I all day avoided this, nothing affected me, and then I fell for it. 1624 01:35:40,890 --> 01:35:41,950 Nevo: When I saw it. 1625 01:35:42,030 --> 01:35:43,030 Nevo: So it was really funny. 1626 01:35:44,870 --> 01:35:46,070 Nevo: And it got me trending on GitHub. 1627 01:35:46,610 --> 01:35:47,890 Nevo: This one post for two days. 1628 01:35:48,350 --> 01:35:49,530 Nevo: That was pretty nice. 1629 01:35:52,890 --> 01:35:55,010 Nevo: You're amazing at marketing. 1630 01:35:55,450 --> 01:35:57,010 Nevo: Not that much, as you think. 1631 01:35:57,150 --> 01:35:58,410 Nevo: As you can see, I'm not... 1632 01:35:59,010 --> 01:36:02,590 Nevo: I'm better at marketing more than self-taught leadership. 1633 01:36:02,830 --> 01:36:05,490 Nevo: Because I'm not so good in the X and LinkedIn stuff. 1634 01:36:05,630 --> 01:36:08,090 Nevo: I'm just like in growth hacking and traditional marketing. 1635 01:36:09,110 --> 01:36:10,570 Nesters: Yeah, I can see there's difference. 1636 01:36:11,270 --> 01:36:14,270 Nesters: But in this regard, you're actually very good. 1637 01:36:15,390 --> 01:36:16,990 Nesters: That's actually how you're... 1638 01:36:16,990 --> 01:36:20,490 Nesters: Obviously, that's also how the playbook sounds amazing. 1639 01:36:20,710 --> 01:36:23,150 Nesters: Like you actually found the way to hack it. 1640 01:36:24,570 --> 01:36:25,670 Nesters: The growth hacker. 1641 01:36:25,990 --> 01:36:26,930 Nesters: Daniel wants to say something. 1642 01:36:27,690 --> 01:36:32,590 Daniel: Yeah, I'm curious about the trending on GitHub thing. 1643 01:36:32,790 --> 01:36:36,330 Daniel: Because I can imagine it's valuable. 1644 01:36:36,690 --> 01:36:38,890 Daniel: But how valuable is it? 1645 01:36:38,970 --> 01:36:39,930 Daniel: Because I don't know. 1646 01:36:40,030 --> 01:36:41,370 Daniel: For example, just me, myself. 1647 01:36:41,370 --> 01:36:44,870 Daniel: I don't think I ever watch the GitHub trending stuff. 1648 01:36:45,010 --> 01:36:45,890 Daniel: Like who is there? 1649 01:36:46,010 --> 01:36:47,990 Daniel: Like who is watching the GitHub trends? 1650 01:36:49,010 --> 01:36:50,130 Daniel: Is it just developers? 1651 01:36:50,350 --> 01:36:51,810 Daniel: Or is there like a bigger audience? 1652 01:36:52,030 --> 01:36:54,010 Daniel: That's like waking up every day. 1653 01:36:54,010 --> 01:36:57,790 Daniel: And like going to check what is trending on GitHub. 1654 01:36:58,130 --> 01:36:58,890 Daniel: Yeah, that's a good question. 1655 01:36:58,890 --> 01:37:00,070 Daniel: I'm curious like how much. 1656 01:37:00,370 --> 01:37:00,990 Daniel: That's a good question. 1657 01:37:01,070 --> 01:37:02,050 Daniel: So it's mostly developers. 1658 01:37:02,870 --> 01:37:05,190 Nevo: But also a lot of bots. 1659 01:37:05,710 --> 01:37:09,090 Nevo: So a lot of people are using this for scraping. 1660 01:37:09,710 --> 01:37:13,870 Nevo: So you might find yourself after you are trending a lot of UGC content. 1661 01:37:14,450 --> 01:37:17,070 Nevo: I feel that it's very similar to product hunting. 1662 01:37:17,210 --> 01:37:19,930 Nevo: Product hunting, I remember I launched five years ago. 1663 01:37:20,010 --> 01:37:20,690 Nevo: It was insane. 1664 01:37:20,770 --> 01:37:21,470 Nevo: It was not like today. 1665 01:37:21,470 --> 01:37:24,030 Nevo: Today, I feel like I get a lot less traffic. 1666 01:37:24,730 --> 01:37:29,670 Nevo: But when I get to product hunt to the first places, which almost every launch that I do, I get to the first places. 1667 01:37:30,990 --> 01:37:35,190 Nevo: I always get a lot of newsletter posting about me. 1668 01:37:35,630 --> 01:37:36,690 Nevo: And I think this is the main thing. 1669 01:37:36,810 --> 01:37:40,010 Nevo: Like you want this UGC spiraling into many things. 1670 01:37:40,070 --> 01:37:42,630 Nevo: Like I know that I get to the second or first place of product hunt. 1671 01:37:42,710 --> 01:37:44,310 Nevo: Okay, now let's open plausible. 1672 01:37:44,630 --> 01:37:45,510 Nevo: Let's see all the views. 1673 01:37:45,610 --> 01:37:48,770 Nevo: Okay, see this newsletter posted about me, these newsletters and so on. 1674 01:37:49,230 --> 01:37:50,610 Nevo: So same thing with the trending feed. 1675 01:37:50,610 --> 01:37:55,350 Nevo: But you always, you see like when you're trending, you suddenly get a lot more stars. 1676 01:37:55,750 --> 01:37:58,370 Nevo: Stars is rising, forks are rising, clones are rising. 1677 01:37:58,910 --> 01:38:06,310 Nevo: So, and just by the way, what I like about this strategy, the trending, is that it's just a strategy. 1678 01:38:06,490 --> 01:38:07,870 Nevo: Like your goal is to become trending. 1679 01:38:08,330 --> 01:38:12,770 Nevo: There is almost no chance, like it's very rare that you actually become trending. 1680 01:38:12,910 --> 01:38:16,670 Nevo: If you could be all the time, then trending would not be so popular. 1681 01:38:16,930 --> 01:38:17,630 Nevo: It's very hard. 1682 01:38:17,630 --> 01:38:21,070 Nevo: But just the concept, I like the concept because you're trying to be trending. 1683 01:38:21,250 --> 01:38:27,070 Nevo: So every week, you're trying to do all the possible stuff to make so much noise around your products. 1684 01:38:27,110 --> 01:38:29,890 Nevo: So people go to your GitHub and star it. 1685 01:38:30,150 --> 01:38:35,330 Nevo: So just the process itself is a good way, is a strategy for people when they plan it. 1686 01:38:36,230 --> 01:38:38,070 Nevo: I think it's... 1687 01:38:38,070 --> 01:38:39,090 Daniel: Yeah, amazing. 1688 01:38:39,310 --> 01:38:39,930 Daniel: I love it. 1689 01:38:41,150 --> 01:38:42,050 Daniel: Back to you, Nestor. 1690 01:38:43,510 --> 01:38:45,190 Nesters: I know, yeah, I mean... 1691 01:38:47,570 --> 01:38:52,030 Nesters: I actually like how you're actually utilizing the bots at this point as to your benefit. 1692 01:38:52,230 --> 01:38:57,850 Nesters: I mean, I even made a tweet at some point, like the bot comments on your X is also good because you can reply in a good way. 1693 01:38:57,950 --> 01:39:02,590 Nesters: It's actually like enhances visibility of your posts in a way and makes it more lively, you know. 1694 01:39:02,690 --> 01:39:06,830 Nesters: Like technically, bots can help if you're aware of that and not like get sucked into them. 1695 01:39:09,750 --> 01:39:14,770 Nesters: So yeah, your idea is to just get to the trending, which obviously the bots can help you with that. 1696 01:39:14,930 --> 01:39:19,390 Nevo: By the way, I want to share with you one of my strategies that I have done when I... 1697 01:39:19,810 --> 01:39:21,070 Nevo: I had my own website. 1698 01:39:21,390 --> 01:39:22,130 Nevo: You can also see it. 1699 01:39:22,810 --> 01:39:24,550 Nevo: I didn't update it for a very long time. 1700 01:39:24,710 --> 01:39:25,750 Nevo: It's called gitroom.com. 1701 01:39:26,150 --> 01:39:30,850 Nevo: So every strategy that I talk about with all this DevJuice stuff and so on, you can find it there. 1702 01:39:30,930 --> 01:39:31,750 Nevo: It's also my YouTube channel. 1703 01:39:31,850 --> 01:39:33,070 Nevo: So all my strategies are there. 1704 01:39:33,990 --> 01:39:39,030 Nevo: But one thing is that, you know, the open source marketing was a very... it's a very niche. 1705 01:39:39,190 --> 01:39:48,990 Nevo: Like, yes, there are companies, but if you look at the whole aspect of the amount of companies that are open source, it's almost nothing compared to non-open source companies. 1706 01:39:49,890 --> 01:39:53,390 Nevo: And I wanted to grow the newsletter, because it's a newsletter. 1707 01:39:53,690 --> 01:39:56,070 Nevo: So the Gitroom, it was at least when I ran it. 1708 01:39:56,270 --> 01:39:59,070 Nevo: And I wanted to get like people into the newsletter. 1709 01:39:59,070 --> 01:40:01,170 Nevo: But you know how hard it is, you know. 1710 01:40:01,410 --> 01:40:05,630 Nevo: You can't just like, you know, do indie hacker marketing or something like this and just bring indie hackers. 1711 01:40:05,690 --> 01:40:06,050 Nevo: Because it's not. 1712 01:40:06,150 --> 01:40:08,070 Nevo: It's like a very laser-focused people. 1713 01:40:08,270 --> 01:40:10,450 Nevo: It was so hard for me to get all these open source people. 1714 01:40:10,970 --> 01:40:18,910 Nevo: So what I did, people don't know it, but GitHub is like, their privacy is like of the year of 2000, basically. 1715 01:40:19,150 --> 01:40:19,930 Nevo: Their privacy is shit. 1716 01:40:20,310 --> 01:40:27,750 Nevo: So you can just use GitHub GraphQL, and you can grab emails of almost every person on GitHub, basically. 1717 01:40:28,310 --> 01:40:31,290 Nevo: So what I did, I go to GitHub. 1718 01:40:31,810 --> 01:40:37,350 Nevo: And I said, okay, with GraphQL, let's find all the repositories that have a little bit more than 200 stars. 1719 01:40:37,590 --> 01:40:42,750 Nevo: And let's take the first contributor in this repository and give me their email, basically. 1720 01:40:43,670 --> 01:40:46,830 Nevo: And then I did like an outreach campaign for all the emails. 1721 01:40:47,570 --> 01:40:53,070 Nevo: And the lead magnet was, I created like a directory of open source projects. 1722 01:40:53,070 --> 01:40:56,290 Nevo: So you need to add your open source project inside. 1723 01:40:56,290 --> 01:40:58,750 Nevo: And once you do it, you need to add your email. 1724 01:40:58,890 --> 01:41:01,530 Nevo: And then I register you to the newsletter. 1725 01:41:01,950 --> 01:41:07,370 Nevo: This was the most laser-focused thing I've ever done, to get people to the newsletter. 1726 01:41:08,010 --> 01:41:08,770 Nevo: So this is how I started. 1727 01:41:08,910 --> 01:41:11,650 Nevo: So just for you to know, you can get a lot of emails from GitHub. 1728 01:41:11,750 --> 01:41:17,130 Nevo: Just be careful with what you send developers, because they're very sensitive to marketing when you do stuff like that. 1729 01:41:17,890 --> 01:41:19,350 Nevo: I'd probably put you in spam. 1730 01:41:22,330 --> 01:41:23,250 Nevo: So that's true. 1731 01:41:23,950 --> 01:41:26,610 Nevo: So your lead magnet needs to be very, very good. 1732 01:41:26,930 --> 01:41:30,950 Nevo: My lead magnet was that I don't sell anything. 1733 01:41:31,150 --> 01:41:33,490 Nevo: I just told people, listen, I built this directory. 1734 01:41:33,990 --> 01:41:35,010 Nevo: You can add yourself in. 1735 01:41:35,390 --> 01:41:36,670 Nevo: I don't charge money from it. 1736 01:41:36,770 --> 01:41:38,550 Nevo: I bring traffic all the time into it. 1737 01:41:38,830 --> 01:41:42,110 Nevo: All you need to do is your GitHub repository. 1738 01:41:42,970 --> 01:41:44,010 Nevo: And that's it, you're listed there. 1739 01:41:44,590 --> 01:41:45,030 Nevo: And that's it. 1740 01:41:45,150 --> 01:41:47,150 Nevo: And then I started to send them newsletter every week. 1741 01:41:47,670 --> 01:41:48,330 Nevo: Everything free. 1742 01:41:48,430 --> 01:41:49,870 Nevo: I never have any offer in the newsletter. 1743 01:41:50,510 --> 01:41:51,350 Nevo: So it worked pretty well. 1744 01:41:51,350 --> 01:41:58,350 Nevo: Actually, nobody ever, ever complained about this email outreach. 1745 01:41:58,890 --> 01:41:59,510 Nevo: So it was pretty good. 1746 01:41:59,830 --> 01:42:02,410 Nevo: Because I didn't sell anything. 1747 01:42:02,830 --> 01:42:08,370 Nevo: So, you know, if I even put one selling thing in the email, it would not work. 1748 01:42:10,010 --> 01:42:16,830 Nesters: So you not only used other people's bots for your own marketing, you also used your own bots to rape people's emails. 1749 01:42:17,790 --> 01:42:19,070 Nevo: No, it's very easy. 1750 01:42:19,190 --> 01:42:19,990 Nevo: You just go to GitHub. 1751 01:42:19,990 --> 01:42:21,870 Nevo: You know, you use two services. 1752 01:42:22,130 --> 01:42:22,790 Nevo: Yeah, I get it. 1753 01:42:23,190 --> 01:42:25,430 Nevo: Or something like this to send emails. 1754 01:42:25,570 --> 01:42:25,890 Nevo: And that's it. 1755 01:42:26,650 --> 01:42:27,650 Nevo: Warm up your email before. 1756 01:42:29,010 --> 01:42:30,630 Nevo: And yeah, that's it. 1757 01:42:31,150 --> 01:42:31,770 Nevo: Pretty easy. 1758 01:42:32,990 --> 01:42:38,650 Nesters: Obviously, the lead magnet needs to be good enough so people don't just... 1759 01:42:38,650 --> 01:42:45,830 Nevo: It's just that I feel that, you know, I'm getting, especially after product hunt, I'm getting all day cold outreach. 1760 01:42:46,310 --> 01:42:47,250 Nevo: And it's so annoying. 1761 01:42:47,250 --> 01:42:49,990 Nevo: Every time I see a cold outreach, we are a company. 1762 01:42:50,110 --> 01:42:51,150 Nevo: We do this, this, and this. 1763 01:42:51,270 --> 01:42:52,370 Nevo: Would you like to buy our services? 1764 01:42:52,470 --> 01:42:53,930 Nevo: Just like the short thing, basically. 1765 01:42:55,250 --> 01:42:55,910 Nevo: I don't know. 1766 01:42:56,190 --> 01:43:00,270 Nevo: Maybe a dumber persona would actually be attracted to that. 1767 01:43:00,550 --> 01:43:01,410 Nevo: But I don't know. 1768 01:43:01,610 --> 01:43:05,550 Nevo: Founders and stuff, when they get this, it's so annoying to get this. 1769 01:43:05,790 --> 01:43:09,670 Nevo: Like, I always write, like, an email back after they send me, like, stop sequence. 1770 01:43:10,070 --> 01:43:12,290 Nevo: Because I know if I don't do it, I will get another email tomorrow. 1771 01:43:12,490 --> 01:43:15,690 Nevo: Because it's like a sequence of emails one day after another. 1772 01:43:15,690 --> 01:43:17,350 Nevo: It needs to be... 1773 01:43:17,350 --> 01:43:17,850 Nevo: I don't know. 1774 01:43:17,970 --> 01:43:25,730 Nevo: If you're doing outreach for this kind of personas, it needs to be super attractive and not try to sell anything, in my test. 1775 01:43:29,830 --> 01:43:30,950 Nevo: So, yeah. 1776 01:43:32,230 --> 01:43:32,790 Nesters: So... 1777 01:43:32,790 --> 01:43:33,010 Nesters: Yeah. 1778 01:43:34,590 --> 01:43:36,830 Nesters: Yeah, I'm very interested in the questions. 1779 01:43:37,050 --> 01:43:41,270 Nesters: I mean, the Sass guy, you have another question? 1780 01:43:42,170 --> 01:43:44,210 Harsh: Yeah, just a small question. 1781 01:43:44,950 --> 01:43:49,750 Harsh: Whenever you are going through any GitHub profiles, then how do you get the emails? 1782 01:43:50,010 --> 01:43:51,870 Harsh: Like, it's all username only. 1783 01:43:52,450 --> 01:43:53,470 Harsh: Do you use the APIs? 1784 01:43:54,610 --> 01:43:56,470 Nevo: Basically, it's not actually... 1785 01:43:56,470 --> 01:44:01,340 Nevo: If you actually open a lot of user profiles on GitHub, just open their profile, you will see their email. 1786 01:44:01,850 --> 01:44:02,270 Nevo: In general. 1787 01:44:03,150 --> 01:44:03,830 Nevo: Just in general. 1788 01:44:04,090 --> 01:44:04,870 Nevo: Oh, like that. 1789 01:44:05,110 --> 01:44:05,590 Nevo: Okay, okay. 1790 01:44:05,590 --> 01:44:05,970 Nevo: In general. 1791 01:44:06,030 --> 01:44:07,150 Nevo: But don't do that like that. 1792 01:44:07,370 --> 01:44:07,890 Nevo: Like, you can... 1793 01:44:07,890 --> 01:44:09,090 Nevo: GitHub even gives you superpower. 1794 01:44:09,270 --> 01:44:11,710 Nevo: Like, use our API and get emails in messes. 1795 01:44:12,130 --> 01:44:13,710 Nevo: You shouldn't even do it like that. 1796 01:44:13,710 --> 01:44:14,690 Nevo: It's so easy. 1797 01:44:15,470 --> 01:44:17,610 Nevo: The only thing that you need to do... 1798 01:44:17,610 --> 01:44:21,350 Nevo: So, GitHub has the same endpoint for APIs when you use GraphQL. 1799 01:44:21,930 --> 01:44:24,050 Nevo: That you are authenticated or not authenticated. 1800 01:44:24,590 --> 01:44:27,170 Nevo: If you are not authenticated, they don't give you email. 1801 01:44:27,570 --> 01:44:29,510 Nevo: If you are authenticated, they give you the email. 1802 01:44:29,950 --> 01:44:32,350 Nevo: Some people hide their email so you can't see. 1803 01:44:32,950 --> 01:44:35,350 Nevo: But the majority, I think it's the default. 1804 01:44:35,990 --> 01:44:36,870 Nevo: You can see the email. 1805 01:44:38,110 --> 01:44:38,550 Nevo: So... 1806 01:44:38,550 --> 01:44:40,750 Nevo: I can tell you one more thing. 1807 01:44:40,750 --> 01:44:43,430 Nevo: I'm going to drop all your jaws here. 1808 01:44:43,570 --> 01:44:44,530 Nevo: Nobody knows this. 1809 01:44:44,710 --> 01:44:47,670 Nevo: Please, this is the most greatest thing that you can ever do. 1810 01:44:48,510 --> 01:44:51,170 Nevo: Only use it in super use cases. 1811 01:44:52,630 --> 01:44:55,610 Nevo: If you create a new repository... 1812 01:44:55,610 --> 01:44:56,890 Nevo: Let's say you create a new repository. 1813 01:44:57,850 --> 01:45:00,010 Nevo: And then you go to somebody else's repository. 1814 01:45:00,190 --> 01:45:02,950 Nevo: Even go to Guillermo in Vercel, for example. 1815 01:45:03,770 --> 01:45:05,170 Nevo: Go to his repository. 1816 01:45:05,410 --> 01:45:06,490 Nevo: Clone it to your computer. 1817 01:45:07,330 --> 01:45:10,530 Nevo: Go to the repository you cloned. 1818 01:45:10,950 --> 01:45:12,230 Nevo: And do git log. 1819 01:45:12,910 --> 01:45:15,430 Nevo: And see his last commit into the repository. 1820 01:45:16,170 --> 01:45:19,370 Nevo: You will see that he has there his email. 1821 01:45:20,470 --> 01:45:21,250 Nevo: And his name. 1822 01:45:21,830 --> 01:45:24,450 Nevo: If you go back to your repository. 1823 01:45:25,090 --> 01:45:28,370 Nevo: You change your name and email to his. 1824 01:45:28,610 --> 01:45:29,650 Nevo: The one in the git log. 1825 01:45:30,350 --> 01:45:32,270 Nevo: And you create a commit. 1826 01:45:32,450 --> 01:45:33,130 Nevo: And you push it. 1827 01:45:33,450 --> 01:45:35,590 Nevo: You will see him in the list of contributors. 1828 01:45:35,590 --> 01:45:36,790 Nevo: On the side. 1829 01:45:40,030 --> 01:45:42,190 Nevo: I think I'm the only one who knows this. 1830 01:45:42,590 --> 01:45:45,150 Nevo: It's the greatest thing that you can do. 1831 01:45:45,850 --> 01:45:48,950 Nesters: I know people have done this in different contexts. 1832 01:45:50,650 --> 01:45:52,770 Denis: It's a known thing in git. 1833 01:45:54,630 --> 01:45:56,950 Denis: Unless you have verified email. 1834 01:45:57,850 --> 01:45:59,410 Denis: You sign your commits. 1835 01:46:00,170 --> 01:46:02,130 Denis: Otherwise, you can sign it. 1836 01:46:02,130 --> 01:46:05,990 Nevo: I tried this with people with verified email. 1837 01:46:06,570 --> 01:46:07,270 Nevo: Same thing. 1838 01:46:08,330 --> 01:46:09,410 Nevo: I tried it. 1839 01:46:09,470 --> 01:46:10,990 Nevo: It worked. 1840 01:46:11,850 --> 01:46:12,450 Denis: Yeah, yeah. 1841 01:46:12,690 --> 01:46:15,070 Denis: GitHub doesn't seem to limit that. 1842 01:46:16,350 --> 01:46:19,690 Denis: They actually had some vulnerabilities around that. 1843 01:46:20,030 --> 01:46:22,370 Denis: That, you know, I even disclosed. 1844 01:46:22,670 --> 01:46:24,130 Denis: So, yeah, that's... 1845 01:46:24,870 --> 01:46:26,050 Denis: For me, it's crazy. 1846 01:46:26,510 --> 01:46:27,290 Harsh: What people think. 1847 01:46:28,370 --> 01:46:29,210 Harsh: Thanks for sharing. 1848 01:46:29,210 --> 01:46:31,090 Harsh: It was funny to find them. 1849 01:46:33,010 --> 01:46:37,270 Nesters: Now we're all going to be contributors of some new repositories here. 1850 01:46:38,210 --> 01:46:45,790 Nevo: I think that people are just scratching the surface right now with the amount of open source. 1851 01:46:46,410 --> 01:46:47,590 Nevo: The thing that you can do in open source. 1852 01:46:47,670 --> 01:46:49,090 Nevo: I think there's so many possibilities. 1853 01:46:50,130 --> 01:46:52,430 Nevo: And generally speaking, you know, today when I need to do SaaS. 1854 01:46:52,710 --> 01:46:54,750 Nevo: Let's say I want to do SaaS, not open source. 1855 01:46:55,770 --> 01:46:58,610 Nevo: It's very hard for me to figure out the channels. 1856 01:46:58,610 --> 01:46:59,950 Nevo: Like I do in open source. 1857 01:47:00,050 --> 01:47:03,010 Nevo: In open source, I just know these easy channels that you can do. 1858 01:47:03,510 --> 01:47:06,950 Nevo: With traditional SaaS, it feels harder. 1859 01:47:07,750 --> 01:47:08,470 Nevo: At least for me. 1860 01:47:08,810 --> 01:47:09,550 Nevo: With growth hacking. 1861 01:47:12,130 --> 01:47:16,430 Nevo: I can tell you right now that I'm struggling a lot with SEO. 1862 01:47:16,890 --> 01:47:18,150 Nevo: That's a big struggle now. 1863 01:47:18,950 --> 01:47:19,750 Nevo: What I'm trying to do. 1864 01:47:21,250 --> 01:47:23,130 Nesters: Yeah, we can talk about it, actually. 1865 01:47:23,410 --> 01:47:27,110 Nesters: Now I get a little bit more of the idea of what's happening. 1866 01:47:27,830 --> 01:47:30,650 Nesters: Before I had no idea what exactly you were doing. 1867 01:47:30,730 --> 01:47:31,450 Nesters: But now I get it. 1868 01:47:31,650 --> 01:47:35,450 Nesters: Now I get what the growth hacking part you were actually doing. 1869 01:47:35,790 --> 01:47:38,310 Nesters: Similar to what you're actually doing with the host in open source. 1870 01:47:38,310 --> 01:47:40,430 Nevo: But you know what is the most amazing part? 1871 01:47:40,570 --> 01:47:42,090 Nevo: And I think this is where it's so crazy. 1872 01:47:42,350 --> 01:47:45,470 Nevo: And this is the shift the market is going to. 1873 01:47:46,170 --> 01:47:51,830 Nevo: Like Postgres doesn't have a lot of brain recognition in SEO, for example. 1874 01:47:51,830 --> 01:47:56,930 Nevo: But all the time when I check the search results, it's like direct hits. 1875 01:47:57,270 --> 01:48:01,770 Nevo: People looking for posties on Google and just go in. 1876 01:48:02,190 --> 01:48:04,670 Nevo: And I feel like this whole brand thing is a real thing. 1877 01:48:05,190 --> 01:48:09,230 Nevo: The more time passes, people just look for the brand all the time. 1878 01:48:09,670 --> 01:48:14,630 Nesters: By the way, I have mentioned that many times in the SEO channel in the small bits. 1879 01:48:14,810 --> 01:48:18,510 Nesters: And in some of the, not the apps, but previous spaces we had. 1880 01:48:18,510 --> 01:48:25,830 Nesters: The brand search is actually a really huge contributor to the SEO authority of your brand. 1881 01:48:26,070 --> 01:48:29,570 Nesters: So you don't necessarily need all the backlinks and whatever. 1882 01:48:30,030 --> 01:48:35,370 Nesters: You can actually do very well in SEO, like in rankings, just by having brand power. 1883 01:48:35,510 --> 01:48:38,750 Nesters: So you'll start ranking for keywords, not just for your brand, the direct hits. 1884 01:48:38,870 --> 01:48:45,030 Nesters: You'll start ranking for keywords just based on a very good brand search volume. 1885 01:48:45,570 --> 01:48:47,690 Nesters: Because it makes your brand authoritative, basically. 1886 01:48:47,690 --> 01:48:51,230 Nesters: So there are brands that sometimes grow very well on social media. 1887 01:48:51,450 --> 01:48:52,590 Nesters: They have a lot of brand search. 1888 01:48:52,970 --> 01:48:55,250 Nesters: And I noticed their site is not SEO-optimized. 1889 01:48:56,490 --> 01:49:00,670 Nesters: They actually don't have that many high-authority backlinks necessary that they do follow. 1890 01:49:01,010 --> 01:49:03,030 Nesters: But they have a lot of social media mentions. 1891 01:49:03,230 --> 01:49:04,370 Nesters: And they were just out competing. 1892 01:49:04,830 --> 01:49:07,450 Nesters: Very well-optimized, high-authority sites. 1893 01:49:08,190 --> 01:49:11,430 Nesters: Just mainly through the social media. 1894 01:49:12,170 --> 01:49:15,190 Nesters: So I would say that actually is an SEO strategy now. 1895 01:49:15,190 --> 01:49:19,610 Nesters: So I would say, especially for LLMs, the brand mentions will play a huge role. 1896 01:49:20,990 --> 01:49:24,570 Nevo: By the way, what worked for me really good lately, that I started to do... 1897 01:49:24,570 --> 01:49:25,510 Nevo: It's also a little bit gray. 1898 01:49:26,650 --> 01:49:29,050 Nevo: I go to SEMrush, for example. 1899 01:49:29,370 --> 01:49:32,290 Nevo: And I put the Reddit domain inside. 1900 01:49:33,170 --> 01:49:35,110 Nevo: And then I put the keywords that I want. 1901 01:49:35,430 --> 01:49:36,670 Nevo: So let's say I say social media. 1902 01:49:37,250 --> 01:49:39,930 Nevo: Then I see, okay, social media here. 1903 01:49:40,150 --> 01:49:42,710 Nevo: There is a first position here on Reddit, basically. 1904 01:49:43,370 --> 01:49:45,890 Nevo: So this is how I find the top-ranking one on Reddit. 1905 01:49:46,430 --> 01:49:51,290 Nevo: And then I just go to the post, put a comment in the post. 1906 01:49:51,570 --> 01:49:53,370 Nevo: And then I ask a few friends to upvote it. 1907 01:49:53,470 --> 01:49:56,850 Nevo: Because the more upvotes you have, the comment goes up, basically, on Reddit. 1908 01:49:57,450 --> 01:50:00,330 Nevo: So then you just hijack the first place. 1909 01:50:02,130 --> 01:50:04,970 Nesters: Yeah, that's a common strategy. 1910 01:50:05,750 --> 01:50:07,690 Nesters: The upvoting part obviously helps. 1911 01:50:07,690 --> 01:50:12,050 Nesters: Yeah, but that's a common strategy in terms of doing that with Reddit especially. 1912 01:50:12,390 --> 01:50:22,970 Nesters: If you see a post that's somewhere at the top on search for keywords you want to rank for, you just try to put your comment in with your tool. 1913 01:50:23,050 --> 01:50:25,410 Nesters: Whether the brand name or the link, if it permits. 1914 01:50:25,590 --> 01:50:29,710 Nesters: You just put it in there and have some people maybe respond to it. 1915 01:50:29,790 --> 01:50:34,090 Nesters: Also reply, because the more organic it looks, the less likely you're going to randomly get removed. 1916 01:50:34,090 --> 01:50:38,270 Nesters: If some reply appears later, it's like, yeah, this tool is nice. 1917 01:50:38,330 --> 01:50:40,190 Nesters: I've been using it for two years or something. 1918 01:50:40,690 --> 01:50:42,770 Nesters: And you mention some good features about it. 1919 01:50:42,810 --> 01:50:51,170 Nesters: Basically, whatever context you want that tool to appear in, you just add those extra comments, for example, from someone else as well. 1920 01:50:51,450 --> 01:50:52,330 Nesters: That obviously helps. 1921 01:50:54,450 --> 01:50:56,310 Nesters: That's the whole Parasite SEO. 1922 01:50:56,710 --> 01:50:58,370 Nesters: That's literally called Parasite SEO. 1923 01:50:58,590 --> 01:51:10,850 Nesters: Just like the Google Discover strategy you use with Dev.to, like the Parasite SEO, it sounds like a really bad name, but it's basically just borrowing the authority from some other site, including Reddit, for example. 1924 01:51:11,590 --> 01:51:15,110 Nesters: Because you know their site will rank very well on some aspect. 1925 01:51:15,250 --> 01:51:17,170 Nesters: Maybe it's Google Discover, maybe it's Search. 1926 01:51:17,850 --> 01:51:30,710 Nesters: Maybe it's even like if you're talking about even on YouTube, sometimes the YouTube results get pulled in in Google Search, so you can actually position your YouTube video with a specific title to get pulled in at the top, for example, as a YouTube feature as well. 1927 01:51:30,710 --> 01:51:36,130 Nesters: That's obviously required that maybe your channel has some followers, et cetera, because zero followers... 1928 01:51:36,130 --> 01:51:59,870 Nesters: But it works better on Bing, by the way, because Bing, as a search engine, it's a very low-volume search engine, like 4%, but what happens on Bing is if you name a post title just for the keyword you want it to appear, for example, if you do 10 fun names for a yacht, 1929 01:51:59,970 --> 01:52:08,450 Nesters: for example, if you name your post exactly that way, you will rank number one not long after. 1930 01:52:08,670 --> 01:52:14,950 Nesters: You will rank number one for that keyword just because your post directly has the exact match with the query. 1931 01:52:15,250 --> 01:52:24,150 Nesters: That's Bing, because Bing has a way less sophisticated algorithm than Google, so you can do this, just direct match title, and you'll get it on Google. 1932 01:52:24,890 --> 01:52:27,410 Nesters: Not Google, but for Bing, you will rank number one. 1933 01:52:27,890 --> 01:52:28,810 Nesters: It's ridiculous, actually. 1934 01:52:29,050 --> 01:52:33,850 Nesters: Obviously, it's rare that someone browses 10 names or something, but you still will rank. 1935 01:52:33,950 --> 01:52:43,550 Nesters: There are some keywords, like long-tail keywords, where you can find that small angle where you can just name your post exactly how the keyword appears, and you just rank. 1936 01:52:44,210 --> 01:52:49,130 Nesters: You usually look at the keywords up from SEMrush for Google, and then you just do that for Bing, for example. 1937 01:52:49,610 --> 01:52:52,470 Nevo: By the way, you can hijack other websites, which I do it a lot. 1938 01:52:52,650 --> 01:52:56,850 Nevo: For example, when you post on Dev.to, they have a very high domain authority. 1939 01:52:57,410 --> 01:53:06,550 Nevo: Even when I post on Dev.to, and then I put a canonical link back to my website, the Dev.to is ranking higher than my article because it has such a high domain authority. 1940 01:53:07,390 --> 01:53:08,930 Nevo: By the way, when I launch... 1941 01:53:08,930 --> 01:53:12,350 Nevo: I launch on Dev.to because I know I get the most amount of traffic. 1942 01:53:12,750 --> 01:53:15,410 Nevo: There are so many websites that I cross-post it after that. 1943 01:53:15,410 --> 01:53:18,630 Nevo: So I do Dev.to, then I cross-post it to Hackernoon. 1944 01:53:18,910 --> 01:53:21,470 Nevo: By the way, one time in Hackernoon, I posted an article. 1945 01:53:21,570 --> 01:53:23,230 Nevo: This is the only time, because usually they are very bad. 1946 01:53:23,490 --> 01:53:25,430 Nevo: I got 200,000 views from Google. 1947 01:53:25,690 --> 01:53:27,010 Nevo: So also pretty interesting. 1948 01:53:27,550 --> 01:53:32,430 Nevo: So after Dev.to, I put it on Hackernoon, Medium, Hashnode, 1949 01:53:35,630 --> 01:53:36,630 Nevo: and that's it. 1950 01:53:37,310 --> 01:53:41,270 Nevo: So you also get a few more views from each one of them. 1951 01:53:41,710 --> 01:53:42,990 Nevo: I just don't launch it there. 1952 01:53:43,030 --> 01:53:46,210 Nevo: I don't send all my traffic there, but you still get here and there. 1953 01:53:46,610 --> 01:53:53,030 Nesters: Actually, for some people here, I think it's worth mentioning your Product Hunt launches. 1954 01:53:53,190 --> 01:53:59,890 Nesters: You mentioned a little bit, but honestly, you were like, what, first of day, first of week, first of month with your first launch for postage, right? 1955 01:54:00,330 --> 01:54:12,770 Nevo: Yeah, and the second one now, it will be, I think, second of the day, second of the week, and I think second of the month from now. 1956 01:54:12,770 --> 01:54:13,250 Nevo: I don't know. 1957 01:54:13,350 --> 01:54:14,710 Nevo: It's still a long time until then. 1958 01:54:14,830 --> 01:54:19,090 Nesters: Yeah, but what's your angle for that? 1959 01:54:19,130 --> 01:54:21,990 Nesters: Because some people obviously want to launch on Product Hunt. 1960 01:54:22,170 --> 01:54:24,450 Nesters: So how do you figure that one out? 1961 01:54:25,370 --> 01:54:32,030 Nevo: So this is a trick that I got from a friend that I'm doing, but it's a very good trick. 1962 01:54:33,330 --> 01:54:36,850 Nevo: People might hate you, so you can do it if you want. 1963 01:54:37,890 --> 01:54:39,890 Nevo: I'm a very big... 1964 01:54:39,890 --> 01:54:46,630 Nevo: When I launch on Product Hunt, I don't expect my audience on LinkedIn and Twitter to win me the launch. 1965 01:54:46,870 --> 01:54:48,490 Nevo: I have very small reach. 1966 01:54:49,230 --> 01:54:52,470 Nevo: The possibility that this kind of thing will happen is very low. 1967 01:54:53,110 --> 01:54:59,350 Nevo: Only really people with a lot of engagement can actually get it like that. 1968 01:54:59,950 --> 01:55:05,230 Nevo: So I had to figure out a way that I want to get a lot of upvotes. 1969 01:55:05,230 --> 01:55:08,290 Nevo: Now I will say what I'm doing, and everybody will copy me. 1970 01:55:08,350 --> 01:55:11,450 Nevo: Yeah, I have a feeling it might involve something like buying. 1971 01:55:12,270 --> 01:55:13,890 Nesters: No, not buying. 1972 01:55:14,010 --> 01:55:15,390 Nesters: It's even worse than that? 1973 01:55:16,190 --> 01:55:17,270 Nevo: No, it's better. 1974 01:55:17,870 --> 01:55:18,490 Nevo: It's better? 1975 01:55:18,990 --> 01:55:19,230 Nesters: Okay. 1976 01:55:20,590 --> 01:55:21,890 Nevo: So I do this. 1977 01:55:23,510 --> 01:55:25,890 Nevo: I join many Slack groups. 1978 01:55:27,210 --> 01:55:30,250 Nevo: An active one with a lot of people inside. 1979 01:55:31,650 --> 01:55:34,290 Nevo: But it's very important that the Slack group is active. 1980 01:55:34,290 --> 01:55:36,590 Nevo: I don't want to join any Slack group. 1981 01:55:36,750 --> 01:55:42,190 Nevo: There is Slack groups sometimes, like 200,000 people, but there's no engagement. 1982 01:55:42,450 --> 01:55:44,530 Nevo: Somebody a long time ago didn't maintain it. 1983 01:55:44,710 --> 01:55:46,190 Nevo: There's no engagement inside. 1984 01:55:46,990 --> 01:55:48,610 Nevo: You will hate me for what I'm going to say. 1985 01:55:49,350 --> 01:55:50,090 Nevo: I have a friend. 1986 01:55:50,810 --> 01:55:54,150 Nevo: He created a GitHub repository that's called Slack Live. 1987 01:55:54,970 --> 01:56:00,310 Nevo: Basically, it's scraping Slack and sending a private message every second to every person on Slack. 1988 01:56:00,870 --> 01:56:03,970 Nevo: So it's just literally sending thousands of messages. 1989 01:56:04,690 --> 01:56:08,250 Nevo: Because I'm running multiple Slack groups at the same time, basically. 1990 01:56:08,870 --> 01:56:10,830 Nevo: So it's sending tons of messages. 1991 01:56:11,630 --> 01:56:14,850 Nevo: And it's winning me almost every launch when I do it. 1992 01:56:15,710 --> 01:56:16,170 Nesters: It's incredible. 1993 01:56:17,830 --> 01:56:18,270 Nesters: Wow. 1994 01:56:18,590 --> 01:56:20,090 Nesters: I don't know how to feel about it. 1995 01:56:20,130 --> 01:56:21,390 Nesters: I would not want to do that. 1996 01:56:21,610 --> 01:56:25,310 Nesters: I hope not many people copy your strategy, but... 1997 01:56:26,090 --> 01:56:29,450 Nevo: But by the way, a lot of customers are getting into this also when I send it to them. 1998 01:56:29,450 --> 01:56:34,230 Nevo: Because the nice thing I like about Product Hunt is that you sell your product without selling your product. 1999 01:56:35,270 --> 01:56:37,490 Nevo: You tell people, listen, I launched on Product Hunt. 2000 01:56:38,010 --> 01:56:39,470 Nevo: Can you just help me with an upvote? 2001 01:56:39,670 --> 01:56:40,370 Nevo: Thank you very much. 2002 01:56:40,510 --> 01:56:42,570 Nevo: You don't ask them to buy a product or anything. 2003 01:56:42,990 --> 01:56:43,830 Nevo: It's free for them. 2004 01:56:45,650 --> 01:56:47,610 Nevo: So I get a lot of customers from this. 2005 01:56:47,730 --> 01:56:50,750 Nevo: I actually check after that from all the Slack scraping. 2006 01:56:51,790 --> 01:56:56,310 Harsh: Can you mention the GitHub repo for that Slack? 2007 01:56:56,570 --> 01:56:56,750 Harsh: Oh, no. 2008 01:57:00,770 --> 01:57:02,330 Nevo: Write the Slack line. 2009 01:57:03,050 --> 01:57:03,570 Nevo: No. 2010 01:57:05,110 --> 01:57:05,370 Nevo: Slack 9. 2011 01:57:07,050 --> 01:57:08,490 Nevo: Yeah, he wants the GitHub repo for Slack. 2012 01:57:08,490 --> 01:57:11,190 Nevo: Tomorrow you see every possible group is packed. 2013 01:57:12,770 --> 01:57:15,370 Nevo: Indie hackers trying to win lunches. 2014 01:57:16,530 --> 01:57:17,870 Nevo: So this is one. 2015 01:57:17,970 --> 01:57:22,050 Nevo: And the second thing, and I think many people do this, is it's LinkedIn and xOutreach. 2016 01:57:22,730 --> 01:57:25,450 Nevo: So I use... 2017 01:57:25,450 --> 01:57:31,370 Nevo: Before the previous launch, I used LinkedIn Helper on LinkedIn to also send messages to every person on my list. 2018 01:57:31,530 --> 01:57:32,450 Nevo: But it was just too slow. 2019 01:57:33,070 --> 01:57:34,870 Nevo: So I did it manually this time. 2020 01:57:35,290 --> 01:57:36,110 Nevo: Just sending to... 2021 01:57:36,110 --> 01:57:43,970 Nesters: You know, I expected you to just buy retweets or some kind of quotes, like people on X just mentioning you on the launch. 2022 01:57:44,110 --> 01:57:45,270 Nesters: I expected you to just buy... 2023 01:57:45,270 --> 01:57:46,310 Nesters: I'll tell you what is the main problem. 2024 01:57:47,230 --> 01:57:49,390 Nevo: I'll tell you what is the main problem with this kind of stuff. 2025 01:57:49,710 --> 01:57:51,550 Nevo: I don't care to buy quotes and stuff. 2026 01:57:51,970 --> 01:57:54,250 Nevo: The problem is that people are very, very selfish. 2027 01:57:54,250 --> 01:57:55,390 Nevo: What can you do? 2028 01:57:55,430 --> 01:57:56,370 Nevo: People are very selfish. 2029 01:57:56,870 --> 01:57:59,630 Nevo: And I've seen it many times that, like, this mess market... 2030 01:57:59,630 --> 01:58:04,830 Nevo: If you're not, like, an authority, people will see your post, but they will just not upvote you. 2031 01:58:04,970 --> 01:58:08,070 Nevo: Like, very little amount of people will actually do this. 2032 01:58:08,510 --> 01:58:16,710 Nevo: So what I actually did also helped me a little bit is to send a newsletter to all my people on posties. 2033 01:58:16,890 --> 01:58:21,210 Nevo: And I told them, like, listen, help me with an upvote. 2034 01:58:21,690 --> 01:58:25,390 Nevo: I'm doing a giveaway of five lifetime deals for posties. 2035 01:58:25,810 --> 01:58:34,830 Nevo: Because if there is a reward, if somebody gets something in the end, they have, like, 10x the time of, like, motivation to do something. 2036 01:58:34,910 --> 01:58:35,610 Nesters: Yeah, that sounds smart. 2037 01:58:36,170 --> 01:58:39,670 Nesters: Because they're already invested in your product, so it's easier to ask for something. 2038 01:58:40,630 --> 01:58:41,750 Nevo: Yeah, so I sent them a newsletter. 2039 01:58:42,650 --> 01:58:45,910 Nevo: And also I wrote it on Discord, so maybe I've seen a lot. 2040 01:58:45,970 --> 01:58:48,010 Nevo: I know that if I did it like that, nobody would have thought. 2041 01:58:48,010 --> 01:58:49,790 Harsh: But that's risky, right? 2042 01:58:49,950 --> 01:58:54,990 Harsh: Once Product Hunt finds that you are giving something in return of upvotes. 2043 01:58:55,250 --> 01:59:01,050 Harsh: Like, you'll be just, like, blacklisted, right, on Product Hunt. 2044 01:59:01,170 --> 01:59:02,370 Harsh: They have policies like that. 2045 01:59:03,270 --> 01:59:03,750 Harsh: Maybe. 2046 01:59:04,430 --> 01:59:06,130 Nevo: Maybe you're right. 2047 01:59:06,490 --> 01:59:07,330 Nevo: I don't know. 2048 01:59:07,470 --> 01:59:09,310 Nevo: Yes, like, I have a friend who is a hunter. 2049 01:59:09,670 --> 01:59:12,770 Nevo: Product Hunt is a platform that encourages you to get... 2050 01:59:12,770 --> 01:59:17,050 Nevo: Like, you know, the traffic of Product Hunt is made from people bringing uploads. 2051 01:59:17,050 --> 01:59:19,450 Nevo: That's the Product Hunt traffic, right? 2052 01:59:19,590 --> 01:59:19,870 Nevo: That's true. 2053 01:59:19,950 --> 01:59:22,770 Nevo: You bring an upvote, so you bring a person in, and they upvote. 2054 01:59:23,270 --> 01:59:27,130 Nevo: So, compared to, like, let's say Hacker News, that's the worst... 2055 01:59:27,130 --> 01:59:29,370 Nevo: This is the hardest platform to launch possible. 2056 01:59:30,050 --> 01:59:33,270 Nevo: On Hacker News, the algorithm checking everything. 2057 01:59:33,390 --> 01:59:34,310 Nevo: Did you bring an upvote? 2058 01:59:34,410 --> 01:59:35,510 Nevo: Is it from the same IP? 2059 01:59:35,790 --> 01:59:37,470 Nevo: Is it, you know, something... 2060 01:59:37,470 --> 01:59:38,050 Nevo: It's very hard. 2061 01:59:38,450 --> 01:59:41,310 Nevo: Product Hunt encourages you to bring upvotes as much as possible. 2062 01:59:41,910 --> 01:59:43,790 Nevo: So, I don't know. 2063 01:59:43,790 --> 01:59:48,810 Nevo: Even you can put, like, you know, a coupon code on your launch and stuff like that. 2064 01:59:48,830 --> 01:59:49,610 Nevo: I think it's... 2065 01:59:49,610 --> 01:59:50,390 Harsh: Yeah, that we can do. 2066 01:59:50,450 --> 01:59:51,050 Harsh: That we can do. 2067 01:59:51,450 --> 01:59:55,670 Harsh: The Product Hunt special code, discount code. 2068 01:59:55,870 --> 01:59:56,490 Harsh: That we can do. 2069 01:59:57,650 --> 01:59:58,050 Nevo: Yeah. 2070 01:59:59,510 --> 02:00:05,570 Nevo: So, anyway, what I'm saying is that there is one big problem with Product Hunt that they haven't managed to solve until today. 2071 02:00:06,490 --> 02:00:16,210 Nevo: When you launch on Product Hunt, the moment you launch on Product Hunt, if you're featured, you get, like, 100 emails of people offering you to buy upvotes. 2072 02:00:16,570 --> 02:00:18,030 Nevo: Immediately after you launch. 2073 02:00:18,110 --> 02:00:19,570 Nevo: They just scrape the feed all the time. 2074 02:00:20,170 --> 02:00:23,070 Nevo: And then they connect with you on LinkedIn and X and they ask you. 2075 02:00:23,770 --> 02:00:31,910 Nevo: And it's very hard for you as a person that is doing, like, the normal thing of going to LinkedIn and X and posting and stuff like that to win Product Hunt. 2076 02:00:32,170 --> 02:00:34,650 Nevo: Because you're competing against cheaters, basically. 2077 02:00:34,970 --> 02:00:35,710 Nevo: It's very hard. 2078 02:00:35,910 --> 02:00:37,210 Nevo: And they haven't managed to solve that. 2079 02:00:37,290 --> 02:00:38,110 Nevo: There's so many. 2080 02:00:38,550 --> 02:00:40,090 Nevo: Honestly, I want to say something better. 2081 02:00:40,190 --> 02:00:45,870 Nevo: I even feel that this Raycast that won against me, something was a little bit shady around there. 2082 02:00:46,010 --> 02:00:47,490 Nevo: There were even better bots than you. 2083 02:00:49,310 --> 02:00:50,550 Nevo: Something was a little bit weird. 2084 02:00:50,590 --> 02:00:55,310 Nevo: But, anyway, what I'm saying is it's very hard to win like this. 2085 02:00:56,010 --> 02:00:57,470 Nevo: So, do you want to win or not? 2086 02:00:57,550 --> 02:00:59,730 Nevo: Like, you need to do a little bit harder thing. 2087 02:00:59,810 --> 02:01:01,690 Nevo: Like, if you have a big audience, you won. 2088 02:01:02,250 --> 02:01:02,510 Nevo: Right? 2089 02:01:02,570 --> 02:01:03,210 Nevo: Like, Raycast. 2090 02:01:04,010 --> 02:01:05,670 Nevo: They really have a very big audience. 2091 02:01:05,670 --> 02:01:08,090 Nesters: It's nice that you shared the dark secrets as well. 2092 02:01:08,270 --> 02:01:13,850 Nesters: Because I knew that some of them probably existed, but no one really speaks about them loudly. 2093 02:01:15,370 --> 02:01:16,770 Nevo: You know, this is my thing. 2094 02:01:16,890 --> 02:01:20,290 Nevo: I'm trying to find all this hacking stuff that I can do. 2095 02:01:20,550 --> 02:01:21,510 Nevo: Like, I'll give you an example. 2096 02:01:22,610 --> 02:01:24,210 Nevo: Again, people will hate this kind of stuff. 2097 02:01:24,310 --> 02:01:25,070 Nevo: I don't really care. 2098 02:01:25,930 --> 02:01:26,350 Nevo: It's good. 2099 02:01:27,350 --> 02:01:33,030 Nevo: If you launch on IndieHackers.com, for example, you put a post. 2100 02:01:33,030 --> 02:01:38,690 Nevo: So, if you get six likes, you go to the main page, for example. 2101 02:01:39,690 --> 02:01:41,750 Nevo: You know, simple stuff like that. 2102 02:01:41,810 --> 02:01:44,330 Nevo: Because the smaller the platform, usually the algorithm is... 2103 02:01:44,330 --> 02:01:47,110 Nevo: Yeah, the algorithm is simpler, so... 2104 02:01:47,110 --> 02:01:47,350 Nevo: Yeah. 2105 02:01:48,090 --> 02:01:52,470 Nevo: And by the way, in PostIt, they have many social media platforms you should check out. 2106 02:01:52,890 --> 02:01:54,170 Nevo: I think they have nice engagement. 2107 02:01:55,210 --> 02:01:59,090 Nevo: Like, again, different type of audience might not be buyers and stuff like that. 2108 02:01:59,090 --> 02:02:01,930 Nevo: But, like, if you check out Nostra, for example. 2109 02:02:02,110 --> 02:02:04,750 Nevo: You know, I just did a test post with no followers or anything. 2110 02:02:05,130 --> 02:02:07,030 Nevo: I started to get comments, which was interesting. 2111 02:02:07,190 --> 02:02:08,230 Nevo: Nostra is a WebTree. 2112 02:02:08,570 --> 02:02:12,590 Nevo: Not WebTree, but it's like a blockchain type of platform where you can post different things. 2113 02:02:12,730 --> 02:02:15,550 Nevo: Like, if you look at Jack Dorsey, you will see that he is using Nostra. 2114 02:02:16,670 --> 02:02:18,330 Nevo: Which is only the protocol. 2115 02:02:18,650 --> 02:02:20,370 Nevo: Like, you can use Primal and so on. 2116 02:02:20,890 --> 02:02:22,950 Nevo: So, you know, there's like small platforms. 2117 02:02:23,530 --> 02:02:23,670 Nevo: Ah! 2118 02:02:23,970 --> 02:02:25,890 Nevo: One of the platforms that I launched the most. 2119 02:02:26,330 --> 02:02:27,550 Nevo: Nobody knows this platform. 2120 02:02:27,550 --> 02:02:30,350 Nevo: But I'm telling you, this is an amazing platform. 2121 02:02:31,010 --> 02:02:32,150 Nevo: Especially for open source. 2122 02:02:32,930 --> 02:02:33,630 Nevo: So, there is Reddit. 2123 02:02:34,370 --> 02:02:36,410 Nevo: And there is the alternative to Reddit, which is federated. 2124 02:02:36,570 --> 02:02:37,150 Nevo: It's called Lemmy. 2125 02:02:37,430 --> 02:02:41,230 Nevo: So, if you write lemmy.wall, it's another platform. 2126 02:02:42,010 --> 02:02:46,450 Nevo: Listen, every time I go to slashr self-hosted, I just post posties there. 2127 02:02:46,890 --> 02:02:50,350 Nevo: I don't ask any friend to upvote it, anything. 2128 02:02:50,790 --> 02:02:52,190 Nevo: It gets like a hundred upvotes. 2129 02:02:52,330 --> 02:02:53,290 Nevo: It's insane for me. 2130 02:02:53,850 --> 02:02:58,690 Nevo: Now it became like my thing every time that I launch on open source. 2131 02:02:59,150 --> 02:03:01,390 Nevo: So, you should just look for all these small platforms. 2132 02:03:01,890 --> 02:03:03,390 Nesters: And there's so many of them. 2133 02:03:03,630 --> 02:03:08,030 Nesters: The crazy thing is that I was doing some research for one client. 2134 02:03:08,270 --> 02:03:12,670 Nesters: And I realized that in the crypto, for example, there's like a Binance Square. 2135 02:03:12,850 --> 02:03:16,830 Nesters: Which technically looks like Twitter, but basically on Binance platform. 2136 02:03:17,690 --> 02:03:18,070 Nesters: No, no, no. 2137 02:03:18,290 --> 02:03:19,110 Nesters: It's CoinMarketCap. 2138 02:03:19,510 --> 02:03:22,370 Nevo: If you go into CoinMarketCap, it's also a social media. 2139 02:03:22,370 --> 02:03:25,250 Nesters: Yeah, but I meant that Binance also has a square. 2140 02:03:25,590 --> 02:03:27,470 Nesters: They have a high domain rating. 2141 02:03:27,990 --> 02:03:31,230 Nesters: They have like a social network, like a Twitter type of feed. 2142 02:03:31,670 --> 02:03:34,390 Nesters: And some posts just get like hundreds of thousands of views. 2143 02:03:34,830 --> 02:03:37,250 Nesters: But not just that, those posts get indexed on Google. 2144 02:03:37,410 --> 02:03:40,430 Nesters: So, you can technically target some keywords with those posts. 2145 02:03:40,930 --> 02:03:47,170 Nesters: For example, it's actually crazy how these small platforms that people don't even know exist. 2146 02:03:47,170 --> 02:03:50,390 Nesters: Even in crypto sometimes that they actually do exist. 2147 02:03:50,510 --> 02:03:52,970 Nesters: And you can actually rank that way on Google, for example. 2148 02:03:53,150 --> 02:03:56,090 Nesters: Or even reach people on the platform. 2149 02:03:57,070 --> 02:04:00,290 Nesters: It's just like you definitely need to check into the niches usually. 2150 02:04:00,530 --> 02:04:01,770 Nevo: It's nice, because you don't have an algorithm. 2151 02:04:02,530 --> 02:04:03,510 Nevo: You don't need to find it. 2152 02:04:03,570 --> 02:04:04,370 Nevo: You put something. 2153 02:04:04,510 --> 02:04:06,610 Nevo: And if somebody is on the platform, they see what you post. 2154 02:04:06,810 --> 02:04:08,030 Nesters: So, it's pretty nice. 2155 02:04:08,810 --> 02:04:10,450 Nesters: And that's really cool. 2156 02:04:10,890 --> 02:04:13,670 Nesters: That's how Twitter used to work without the 4U algorithm. 2157 02:04:13,670 --> 02:04:17,470 Nesters: You could actually just have people see all your stuff. 2158 02:04:18,170 --> 02:04:18,510 Nevo: It's not possible. 2159 02:04:18,510 --> 02:04:19,670 Nevo: It's not such a big platform. 2160 02:04:19,870 --> 02:04:22,630 Nevo: It's not possible to just show everybody tweets. 2161 02:04:22,730 --> 02:04:23,530 Nevo: There's so many people. 2162 02:04:24,010 --> 02:04:25,370 Nevo: It's just impossible. 2163 02:04:26,410 --> 02:04:29,390 Nevo: But the smaller platforms don't have that algorithm. 2164 02:04:30,190 --> 02:04:32,490 Nevo: So, I really like dev.to. 2165 02:04:32,870 --> 02:04:34,110 Nevo: Lemme is really good. 2166 02:04:34,890 --> 02:04:36,430 Nevo: There's many Lemme instances. 2167 02:04:36,710 --> 02:04:38,390 Nevo: Like lemme.world and lemme.nl. 2168 02:04:38,730 --> 02:04:40,510 Nevo: Crazy amount of engagement there. 2169 02:04:40,810 --> 02:04:41,510 Nevo: It's pretty nice. 2170 02:04:43,770 --> 02:04:44,290 Nevo: Yeah. 2171 02:04:44,910 --> 02:04:47,510 Nevo: There are ones that I use that are actually very bad. 2172 02:04:47,630 --> 02:04:48,890 Nevo: Like Warpcast. 2173 02:04:49,610 --> 02:04:51,510 Nevo: You try to post there and nothing. 2174 02:04:51,810 --> 02:04:52,150 Nevo: Crickets. 2175 02:04:53,190 --> 02:04:55,490 Nevo: So, there's many. 2176 02:04:55,630 --> 02:04:57,510 Nevo: But generally speaking, I think... 2177 02:04:58,310 --> 02:05:00,150 Nevo: Yeah, like people are always trying to... 2178 02:05:00,150 --> 02:05:00,690 Nevo: I know a lot. 2179 02:05:00,890 --> 02:05:02,970 Nevo: And some people are really good. 2180 02:05:03,030 --> 02:05:05,710 Nevo: I'm really bad at X and Lingling. 2181 02:05:05,910 --> 02:05:06,650 Nevo: Really, really bad. 2182 02:05:06,730 --> 02:05:09,530 Nevo: I'm really bad in consistency like this. 2183 02:05:09,570 --> 02:05:10,850 Nevo: Some people really rock this. 2184 02:05:10,850 --> 02:05:16,470 Nevo: But people that have a smaller audience might work for them better to use smaller platforms. 2185 02:05:17,370 --> 02:05:24,970 Nesters: Yeah, and I think what your strategy explains is that you kind of like cram a lot of stuff in one day of the week, for example. 2186 02:05:25,110 --> 02:05:27,150 Nesters: You can do a lot of the promotion. 2187 02:05:27,830 --> 02:05:32,270 Nesters: And it's a better strategy for those who are, I guess, also a little bit more inconsistent in a way. 2188 02:05:32,330 --> 02:05:35,610 Nesters: Because on social media, it feels like you kind of need to stay relevant all the time. 2189 02:05:35,690 --> 02:05:37,170 Nesters: It feels that way often. 2190 02:05:37,370 --> 02:05:40,630 Nesters: Even if it's maybe not entirely true from the algorithmic standpoint. 2191 02:05:40,630 --> 02:05:42,630 Nesters: But it can feel that way. 2192 02:05:42,850 --> 02:05:49,070 Nesters: But with your strategy, you technically could do one day of promotion, like a month, a week, whatever. 2193 02:05:49,350 --> 02:05:52,130 Nesters: And then do the other stuff. 2194 02:05:52,610 --> 02:05:53,490 Nesters: Yeah, just do a launch. 2195 02:05:53,630 --> 02:05:54,910 Nevo: You prefer a big launch. 2196 02:05:57,830 --> 02:06:02,270 Nevo: Don't do the whole self-taught leadership like a lot of people do on X and Lingling. 2197 02:06:02,870 --> 02:06:12,430 Nevo: I think to be good at self-taught leadership, doing all this kind of LinkedIn and Twitter stuff, you need to be a different type of person to be good at this. 2198 02:06:12,990 --> 02:06:13,950 Nevo: I'm really bad at this. 2199 02:06:14,690 --> 02:06:16,330 Nevo: It's a whole different thing. 2200 02:06:17,250 --> 02:06:20,110 Nesters: Yeah, I think a lot of developers fall in the same bucket, actually. 2201 02:06:21,090 --> 02:06:22,250 Nesters: I do believe that. 2202 02:06:22,530 --> 02:06:26,990 Nesters: Maybe not true, but I do believe a lot of them fall in that bucket. 2203 02:06:26,990 --> 02:06:29,930 Nesters: Is this your strategy, to at least some degree? 2204 02:06:30,090 --> 02:06:35,330 Nesters: Maybe not all the bots, depending on how they feel about it. 2205 02:06:35,470 --> 02:06:39,270 Nesters: But at least there were a lot of great ideas about the marketing playbook. 2206 02:06:39,530 --> 02:06:40,690 Nevo: I have a motto in life. 2207 02:06:40,830 --> 02:06:43,630 Nevo: It's kind of a funny motto, but many people hate my motto. 2208 02:06:43,710 --> 02:06:44,370 Nevo: But I say this. 2209 02:06:44,790 --> 02:06:47,510 Nevo: To get from zero to one, do anything that you can. 2210 02:06:47,670 --> 02:06:50,570 Nevo: Do even the shadiest stuff, as long as what you do is not malicious. 2211 02:06:51,130 --> 02:06:55,990 Nevo: As long as you try to provide value in the end of the tunnel, do anything that you can to get. 2212 02:06:55,990 --> 02:07:00,850 Nevo: If not, you will just be swallowed by the whole other people that are doing better than you. 2213 02:07:01,190 --> 02:07:04,570 Nevo: So, do any possible thing that you can to get from zero to one. 2214 02:07:07,710 --> 02:07:09,410 Nevo: That's the final word, I think. 2215 02:07:10,170 --> 02:07:10,550 Nesters: Yeah. 2216 02:07:10,810 --> 02:07:14,410 Nesters: I mean, if anyone has an additional question, you can ask now. 2217 02:07:14,630 --> 02:07:16,610 Nesters: But we should probably just wrap it up. 2218 02:07:19,660 --> 02:07:21,400 Harsh: I'd just like to thank him. 2219 02:07:21,700 --> 02:07:25,780 Harsh: Because this kind of stuff, no one else shares publicly. 2220 02:07:25,780 --> 02:07:34,920 Harsh: So, it is very amazing to see that someone is doing it all the way and also sharing it in public. 2221 02:07:35,080 --> 02:07:36,760 Harsh: It takes a lot of guts. 2222 02:07:37,260 --> 02:07:37,840 Harsh: So, thanks, man. 2223 02:07:37,960 --> 02:07:38,220 Harsh: Thanks. 2224 02:07:39,380 --> 02:07:40,340 Nevo: Yeah, no problem. 2225 02:07:40,460 --> 02:07:42,160 Nevo: But actually, I shared it a long time ago. 2226 02:07:42,260 --> 02:07:43,960 Nevo: You can go to my website, gitrom.com. 2227 02:07:44,260 --> 02:07:45,560 Nevo: All my shady stuff are there. 2228 02:07:45,800 --> 02:07:46,480 Nevo: It's all public. 2229 02:07:50,660 --> 02:07:53,740 Harsh: Which website it is, I would definitely like to go through it. 2230 02:07:54,920 --> 02:07:56,000 Harsh: Yeah, for sure. 2231 02:07:56,940 --> 02:07:58,620 Harsh: Yeah, I'll bring you a DM. 2232 02:07:58,840 --> 02:08:02,320 Harsh: You can share the link if it's possible. 2233 02:08:03,540 --> 02:08:04,480 Harsh: Yeah, no problem. 2234 02:08:07,040 --> 02:08:09,960 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, you shared a lot. 2235 02:08:10,320 --> 02:08:19,640 Nesters: You shared both the completely non-gray area strategies and also the gray area strategies that people are less likely to talk about. 2236 02:08:19,840 --> 02:08:23,000 Nesters: So, now people have a whole perspective of what you can do. 2237 02:08:23,000 --> 02:08:32,800 Nesters: Because sometimes, what I don't actually like is that people often share the strategies that are never on a gray area or anything. 2238 02:08:32,940 --> 02:08:41,680 Nesters: And they tell you, you can achieve this by using these steps that all sound nice and clean and completely fair, you know, whatever, how you feel about it. 2239 02:08:41,820 --> 02:08:46,760 Nesters: But then they don't mention a little bit on the gray area, the shady side. 2240 02:08:46,760 --> 02:08:54,180 Nesters: And then sometimes it's like the combination of both that actually gets them the final result, which maybe is the product on number one. 2241 02:08:54,240 --> 02:08:55,240 Nesters: But they don't share that. 2242 02:08:55,340 --> 02:09:02,260 Nesters: And the people following the basic strategies they do share, they actually will not get to that number one place. 2243 02:09:03,440 --> 02:09:05,880 Nevo: Yeah, I think nobody will share that they buy up votes. 2244 02:09:05,880 --> 02:09:14,040 Nevo: But definitely, I talk about a lot of this gray stuff, because I've seen it working. 2245 02:09:14,120 --> 02:09:17,420 Nevo: As long as it's not malicious, nobody ever say anything bad. 2246 02:09:18,520 --> 02:09:23,400 Nevo: The problem, I think, that most people are trying to... they see other people, so they try to mimic them. 2247 02:09:23,660 --> 02:09:25,520 Nevo: But they don't know the entire thing. 2248 02:09:25,620 --> 02:09:28,960 Nevo: Like, they see some indie hacker that is going really well for this person. 2249 02:09:29,000 --> 02:09:31,900 Nevo: So, they try to copy the same thing, but it's just not working. 2250 02:09:32,100 --> 02:09:35,140 Nevo: Because they don't know everything inside, you know. 2251 02:09:35,140 --> 02:09:39,140 Nevo: Many pieces of the puzzle are missing on how this thing kind of works. 2252 02:09:40,400 --> 02:09:42,060 Nevo: So, yeah, definitely. 2253 02:09:42,440 --> 02:09:47,600 Nesters: And you provided a couple extra pieces for people to take into account. 2254 02:09:47,600 --> 02:09:48,900 Nevo: I usually like to do tactics. 2255 02:09:49,140 --> 02:09:50,400 Nevo: A lot of people say strategy. 2256 02:09:50,560 --> 02:09:53,340 Nevo: Yes, you need to post to a lot of channels at the same time. 2257 02:09:53,780 --> 02:09:55,640 Nevo: But what to actually post? 2258 02:09:56,660 --> 02:09:58,860 Nevo: And actually, you can find this on Github. 2259 02:09:59,340 --> 02:10:02,040 Nevo: What is the actual cover picture that you should put? 2260 02:10:02,380 --> 02:10:04,880 Nevo: What is the actual text that you should put? 2261 02:10:06,520 --> 02:10:11,440 Nevo: Go into a little bit more deep level and not staying on the strategy level so high. 2262 02:10:12,060 --> 02:10:13,420 Nevo: You need to get a lot of stars. 2263 02:10:13,540 --> 02:10:14,520 Nevo: And you want to be trending on Github. 2264 02:10:14,620 --> 02:10:15,200 Nevo: Ah, great. 2265 02:10:15,300 --> 02:10:16,000 Nevo: Thank you for the tip. 2266 02:10:16,200 --> 02:10:17,240 Nevo: I'll just get a lot of stars. 2267 02:10:17,640 --> 02:10:19,200 Nevo: It's not helping you so much. 2268 02:10:21,180 --> 02:10:24,800 Nesters: I'm just gonna create accounts myself and gonna start my own project. 2269 02:10:25,660 --> 02:10:26,740 Nevo: Yeah, definitely. 2270 02:10:27,280 --> 02:10:28,680 Nevo: Okay, we are finishing up. 2271 02:10:28,760 --> 02:10:31,620 Nevo: But I could share another trick that got me 5,000 stars. 2272 02:10:32,040 --> 02:10:32,640 Nevo: Yeah, of course. 2273 02:10:33,200 --> 02:10:34,100 Nevo: Let's bring it on. 2274 02:10:34,880 --> 02:10:35,580 Nevo: Ah, you want? 2275 02:10:35,980 --> 02:10:36,280 Nevo: I don't know. 2276 02:10:36,340 --> 02:10:37,400 Nevo: People are kind of tired. 2277 02:10:37,980 --> 02:10:46,980 Nesters: No, because most people actually listen to replays or will be using the transcripts. 2278 02:10:47,120 --> 02:10:48,580 Nesters: So, it's nice. 2279 02:10:48,880 --> 02:10:53,900 Nevo: The one thing that is really, really strong for dev marketing is... 2280 02:10:53,900 --> 02:10:56,920 Nevo: For developed marketing, and especially for start-ups and so on, is Hackathon. 2281 02:10:57,680 --> 02:11:00,700 Nevo: So, I started a movement when I worked for Novo. 2282 02:11:01,120 --> 02:11:02,340 Nevo: That's called the Hack Squad. 2283 02:11:02,340 --> 02:11:04,220 Nevo: So, you can see hacksquad.dev. 2284 02:11:05,180 --> 02:11:06,340 Nevo: And also, you can see... 2285 02:11:06,860 --> 02:11:08,780 Nevo: After that, there was another one called DevFest. 2286 02:11:09,560 --> 02:11:14,200 Nevo: And the thing about those competitions is that, basically, it's not around my brand. 2287 02:11:14,340 --> 02:11:15,280 Nevo: It's in general. 2288 02:11:15,520 --> 02:11:20,380 Nevo: People contribute code to open source and they get prizes in the end. 2289 02:11:20,780 --> 02:11:26,320 Nevo: Because it's so generic, it drives so many people, basically, to the competition. 2290 02:11:26,840 --> 02:11:30,200 Nevo: So, in a month, we got 10,000 people into the competition. 2291 02:11:32,780 --> 02:11:37,900 Nevo: And many of the bonuses of the competition is to star the repository, basically. 2292 02:11:38,820 --> 02:11:41,060 Nevo: So, this whole competition gave Novo... 2293 02:11:41,060 --> 02:11:46,180 Nevo: Every time we launched it, it was like 5,000 stars during the month of October. 2294 02:11:46,360 --> 02:11:47,900 Nevo: Because October is Hacktoberfest. 2295 02:11:48,300 --> 02:11:51,620 Nevo: It's some event that was created by DigitalOcean a long time ago. 2296 02:11:52,240 --> 02:11:54,440 Nevo: And we run it this way. 2297 02:11:54,560 --> 02:11:57,580 Nevo: We can know what a lot of developers are contributing code during this month. 2298 02:11:57,580 --> 02:12:00,900 Nevo: So, we just create this competition, get so many people. 2299 02:12:01,100 --> 02:12:05,840 Nevo: And all of them automatically star in the repository, make us trending, and get us so many stars. 2300 02:12:06,240 --> 02:12:07,280 Nevo: So, yeah. 2301 02:12:07,400 --> 02:12:09,540 Nevo: This was one of the best things. 2302 02:12:10,680 --> 02:12:18,300 Nesters: Speaking of which, I just saw... I received an email right before this space started from Gumroad. 2303 02:12:18,440 --> 02:12:19,380 Nesters: And they were like... 2304 02:12:19,380 --> 02:12:22,100 Nesters: They also are running an open source software hackathon. 2305 02:12:22,400 --> 02:12:24,960 Nesters: And they extended it to September 15th. 2306 02:12:24,960 --> 02:12:28,280 Nesters: And they're basically offering now $100,000 grand prize. 2307 02:12:28,940 --> 02:12:29,580 Nesters: That's a lot. 2308 02:12:29,660 --> 02:12:31,280 Nesters: I offer $10 prizes. 2309 02:12:32,180 --> 02:12:34,620 Nesters: Yeah, but it's not only $100,000. 2310 02:12:34,700 --> 02:12:41,500 Nesters: It's also $5,000 for the highest GMV, which is basically the gross market value... volume. 2311 02:12:41,880 --> 02:12:43,880 Nesters: $2,500 for the creative. 2312 02:12:44,460 --> 02:12:46,740 Nesters: Some kind of most creative project, whatever, unique. 2313 02:12:46,880 --> 02:12:49,840 Nesters: And then also $1,000 to $10,000 novel projects. 2314 02:12:50,020 --> 02:12:52,260 Nesters: So, it's actually a pretty nice prize pool from Gumroad. 2315 02:12:52,260 --> 02:12:55,220 Nevo: This is a very... 2316 02:12:55,220 --> 02:12:59,600 Nevo: So, you know, when you put a very high ticket price, you can actually get very good developers. 2317 02:13:00,180 --> 02:13:04,140 Nevo: For me, most of the people that joined the project were students that barely know how to code. 2318 02:13:05,040 --> 02:13:05,720 Nevo: Most of the people. 2319 02:13:06,360 --> 02:13:09,360 Nevo: The prizes were also pretty low, but it was already a mass market. 2320 02:13:09,500 --> 02:13:10,960 Nevo: So, it was a lot of developers. 2321 02:13:13,180 --> 02:13:15,640 Nevo: So, yeah, definitely. 2322 02:13:15,900 --> 02:13:17,980 Nevo: I'm also interested to see what Gumroad will do. 2323 02:13:17,980 --> 02:13:20,220 Nevo: Because they are like, you know... 2324 02:13:20,220 --> 02:13:21,220 Nevo: I don't put... 2325 02:13:21,220 --> 02:13:24,300 Nevo: They put on their repository now the MIT license. 2326 02:13:25,160 --> 02:13:28,320 Nevo: MIT license is the most open license possible. 2327 02:13:28,880 --> 02:13:29,820 Nevo: This is the... 2328 02:13:29,820 --> 02:13:32,060 Nevo: This is like the first license. 2329 02:13:32,220 --> 02:13:33,560 Nevo: The most open source possible. 2330 02:13:34,020 --> 02:13:37,020 Nevo: People can take it, compete with you, create a... 2331 02:13:37,660 --> 02:13:39,440 Nevo: Take it, do whatever they want with it. 2332 02:13:39,520 --> 02:13:40,840 Nevo: Like, the most open source license. 2333 02:13:41,000 --> 02:13:42,580 Nevo: So, it's really interesting. 2334 02:13:42,580 --> 02:13:48,600 Nevo: If you see Gumroad Alternative tomorrow, that was cloned from the code... 2335 02:13:48,600 --> 02:13:50,760 Nevo: They just literally can't do anything about this. 2336 02:13:52,540 --> 02:13:53,460 Nevo: As an MIT. 2337 02:13:54,200 --> 02:13:56,400 Daniel: I think the motivation... 2338 02:13:56,400 --> 02:13:58,940 Daniel: Part of the motivation was, like you said, Nevo... 2339 02:13:58,940 --> 02:14:00,600 Daniel: Is that at the end of the day... 2340 02:14:00,600 --> 02:14:02,600 Daniel: Nowadays, you can't really compete with features. 2341 02:14:02,960 --> 02:14:04,640 Daniel: It's now sort of... 2342 02:14:04,640 --> 02:14:06,740 Daniel: Everyone can build their Gumroad clone. 2343 02:14:07,040 --> 02:14:08,620 Daniel: Even from scratch. 2344 02:14:09,040 --> 02:14:10,740 Daniel: So, it's at the end of the day, it's like... 2345 02:14:10,740 --> 02:14:12,000 Daniel: Blending that matters. 2346 02:14:12,200 --> 02:14:14,620 Daniel: And marketing, and community, and all these kinds of things. 2347 02:14:14,960 --> 02:14:17,160 Daniel: So, hopefully the open source thing... 2348 02:14:17,160 --> 02:14:18,960 Daniel: Just increases that. 2349 02:14:19,140 --> 02:14:20,400 Daniel: Gets people to contribute. 2350 02:14:20,760 --> 02:14:23,220 Daniel: And makes Gumroad stand out. 2351 02:14:23,880 --> 02:14:25,180 Nevo: But, you have one more... 2352 02:14:25,180 --> 02:14:25,980 Nevo: One big problem. 2353 02:14:26,240 --> 02:14:27,100 Nevo: So, agreed. 2354 02:14:27,820 --> 02:14:28,260 Nevo: 100%. 2355 02:14:28,260 --> 02:14:29,300 Nevo: I'm just a person. 2356 02:14:29,400 --> 02:14:29,940 Nevo: I'm a company. 2357 02:14:30,040 --> 02:14:30,680 Nevo: I'm taking this. 2358 02:14:30,780 --> 02:14:31,620 Nevo: I'm competing with you. 2359 02:14:31,840 --> 02:14:32,880 Nevo: I have no chance of winning. 2360 02:14:33,220 --> 02:14:34,720 Nevo: Actually, I'm just contributing to you. 2361 02:14:34,900 --> 02:14:35,860 Nevo: People will say, ah, this is... 2362 02:14:35,860 --> 02:14:37,980 Nevo: Might even create a whole drama. 2363 02:14:38,220 --> 02:14:41,160 Nevo: And people will drive more traffic to Gumroad. 2364 02:14:41,760 --> 02:14:42,280 Nevo: 100%. 2365 02:14:42,280 --> 02:14:44,160 Nevo: The biggest problem, usually... 2366 02:14:44,160 --> 02:14:46,540 Nevo: And I think projects like Gumroad will never suffer from this. 2367 02:14:46,600 --> 02:14:48,140 Nevo: If a big company takes your project. 2368 02:14:48,320 --> 02:14:49,800 Nevo: Like if AWS takes your project. 2369 02:14:50,100 --> 02:14:50,600 Nevo: For example. 2370 02:14:51,240 --> 02:14:51,980 Nevo: As a platform. 2371 02:14:52,620 --> 02:14:53,860 Nevo: Somebody with a bigger brand name. 2372 02:14:54,840 --> 02:14:55,360 Daniel: Maybe. 2373 02:14:55,620 --> 02:14:56,760 Daniel: So, an interesting guy. 2374 02:14:56,800 --> 02:14:57,900 Daniel: I was actually at AWS. 2375 02:14:58,200 --> 02:15:01,980 Daniel: At the time when AWS hosted Elasticsearch. 2376 02:15:02,060 --> 02:15:03,380 Daniel: Which I know you mentioned before. 2377 02:15:04,320 --> 02:15:10,960 Daniel: And I was actually very close to the team who was sort of dealing with the pros and cons. 2378 02:15:11,100 --> 02:15:13,140 Daniel: With sort of public perception. 2379 02:15:14,860 --> 02:15:19,140 Daniel: And of course, Elasticsearch were a bit upset. 2380 02:15:19,760 --> 02:15:21,140 Daniel: And there's different opinions. 2381 02:15:21,260 --> 02:15:25,720 Daniel: But I think my perception is that probably everyone benefited. 2382 02:15:26,520 --> 02:15:27,660 Daniel: I think you said it as well. 2383 02:15:28,020 --> 02:15:29,020 Daniel: But Elasticsearch did not benefit from this scenario. 2384 02:15:29,120 --> 02:15:31,120 Daniel: Actually, because of this, they changed the license. 2385 02:15:31,120 --> 02:15:32,500 Daniel: They did, yeah. 2386 02:15:33,620 --> 02:15:34,500 Daniel: It's true. 2387 02:15:35,200 --> 02:15:35,720 Daniel: So, yeah. 2388 02:15:36,520 --> 02:15:39,040 Daniel: There's also egos involved and there's other things. 2389 02:15:39,260 --> 02:15:50,240 Daniel: But my belief, again, this is much my own opinion, is that if you have Amazon hosting your product, you're going to be better off. 2390 02:15:50,440 --> 02:15:56,020 Daniel: It's going to put you in another level of credibility and of attention and so on and so forth. 2391 02:15:56,260 --> 02:16:03,140 Daniel: Now, of course, you might compare with maybe with another universe where maybe it could have been something different. 2392 02:16:03,380 --> 02:16:07,100 Daniel: But compared to not getting that visibility, I don't know. 2393 02:16:07,200 --> 02:16:14,540 Daniel: Of course, it's hard to say because it's hard to A-B test these things into the real world, like what would have happened with or without. 2394 02:16:16,380 --> 02:16:18,760 Daniel: But, yeah, I don't know. 2395 02:16:20,280 --> 02:16:25,820 Daniel: Is MySQL harmed by having Amazon host RDS as a commercial project? 2396 02:16:26,500 --> 02:16:27,440 Daniel: I don't know. 2397 02:16:27,800 --> 02:16:29,240 Daniel: I don't think so, probably. 2398 02:16:30,200 --> 02:16:31,000 Daniel: For example... 2399 02:16:31,000 --> 02:16:33,840 Nevo: Yeah, it's a lot of ego stuff because this is the same thing with WordPress. 2400 02:16:34,480 --> 02:16:35,200 Nevo: What the hell? 2401 02:16:35,360 --> 02:16:36,920 Nevo: Amazon didn't develop this technology. 2402 02:16:37,140 --> 02:16:37,980 Nevo: They're now selling this. 2403 02:16:38,020 --> 02:16:38,860 Nevo: They're making tons of money. 2404 02:16:38,920 --> 02:16:39,340 Nevo: We are free. 2405 02:16:39,460 --> 02:16:40,520 Nevo: Nobody barely pays us. 2406 02:16:40,900 --> 02:16:42,580 Nevo: It's mostly investment and stuff like that. 2407 02:16:42,660 --> 02:16:43,880 Nevo: We don't make that much of money. 2408 02:16:45,500 --> 02:16:49,600 Nevo: In terms of the ego, it can be a very big thing. 2409 02:16:50,020 --> 02:16:54,020 Nevo: But in the end, I like to look at it like, do you make more money in the end? 2410 02:16:54,380 --> 02:16:56,800 Nevo: If so, maybe it helps you. 2411 02:16:57,880 --> 02:17:04,440 Nesters: And especially long term, like the branding, it's also your personal branding that's attached to all this open source. 2412 02:17:04,760 --> 02:17:06,860 Nesters: So in the end, you probably make more money. 2413 02:17:07,680 --> 02:17:09,820 Nesters: You know the... 2414 02:17:11,540 --> 02:17:22,280 Daniel: If AWS tomorrow were to announce an announcement to their 2 million customers that they're having a self-hosted Gumroad, I'm almost certain Gumroad is going to be better off. 2415 02:17:22,640 --> 02:17:23,740 Daniel: Believe it or not. 2416 02:17:24,200 --> 02:17:27,700 Nevo: I don't think it matters because Gumroad is such a simple platform. 2417 02:17:27,880 --> 02:17:30,580 Nevo: The most important thing is what Gumroad actually gives you in the end. 2418 02:17:30,740 --> 02:17:35,040 Nevo: The actual technology is not so relevant in Gumroad. 2419 02:17:35,940 --> 02:17:40,060 Nevo: Maybe in post, this technology is more relevant because it's a tool to let you do schedule stuff. 2420 02:17:40,200 --> 02:17:41,260 Nevo: But Gumroad is just... 2421 02:17:41,260 --> 02:17:43,040 Nevo: There's so many Gumroads in the world. 2422 02:17:43,640 --> 02:17:47,380 Nevo: Just in a different name basically, competing with Gumroad. 2423 02:17:48,720 --> 02:17:50,680 Nevo: Gumroad specifically is not a good example. 2424 02:17:51,640 --> 02:17:56,120 Nesters: I mean, Gumroad has the brand basically in the specific niche. 2425 02:17:56,880 --> 02:17:58,360 Nevo: No, but Gumroad is not a technology company. 2426 02:17:58,580 --> 02:17:59,700 Nevo: They don't have something like... 2427 02:17:59,700 --> 02:18:05,420 Nevo: If you actually think about it, Gumroad doesn't have a crazy technology basically behind them. 2428 02:18:05,640 --> 02:18:09,400 Nevo: They just have a very strong brand and really good things that they give people. 2429 02:18:09,980 --> 02:18:12,680 Nevo: Really nice UX, UI. 2430 02:18:13,580 --> 02:18:17,420 Nevo: They already have popularity when they sell their own... when people sell through them. 2431 02:18:17,420 --> 02:18:22,700 Nevo: Just really nice, but all in all, they didn't invent anything new here. 2432 02:18:24,240 --> 02:18:24,840 Nevo: Just... 2433 02:18:26,380 --> 02:18:27,400 Nevo: Just to see... 2434 02:18:27,400 --> 02:18:29,460 Nesters: In that sense, I agree. 2435 02:18:29,620 --> 02:18:32,640 Nesters: It's just the worst version of Shopify in many ways. 2436 02:18:32,960 --> 02:18:36,940 Nesters: It just has the extra course platform, which also exists separately. 2437 02:18:38,340 --> 02:18:49,080 Nesters: Those things also exist separately, so it's just a combination of something from one platform, something from another platform, and that's basically Gumroad with maybe less features. 2438 02:18:49,960 --> 02:18:55,140 Nevo: The only problem that I see in Gumroad, and again, might not be a problem. 2439 02:18:55,800 --> 02:19:00,260 Nevo: I told you there are two audiences of people that are using the self-hosting. 2440 02:19:00,700 --> 02:19:04,960 Nevo: One is just a community member that would like to contribute code, and so on. 2441 02:19:05,240 --> 02:19:07,840 Nevo: And other people like to self-host your product. 2442 02:19:08,080 --> 02:19:12,280 Nevo: Because posties, a lot of people self-host posties to schedule their own posts and stuff like that. 2443 02:19:12,440 --> 02:19:13,100 Nevo: They don't want to pay. 2444 02:19:13,100 --> 02:19:16,260 Nevo: They run it on their own Hetzner machine for $5. 2445 02:19:16,780 --> 02:19:19,460 Nevo: But I don't see any reason to self-host Gumroad. 2446 02:19:19,800 --> 02:19:21,600 Nevo: There's no benefit in doing that. 2447 02:19:21,600 --> 02:19:23,100 Daniel: The only benefit, I think, is customization. 2448 02:19:24,540 --> 02:19:30,680 Daniel: So there's a lot of people who outgrow Gumroad because there's this little feature, there's something they don't like and they want to improve it. 2449 02:19:30,960 --> 02:19:32,160 Daniel: So there's probably... 2450 02:19:32,160 --> 02:19:48,580 Daniel: I was and still am a big Gumroad user, and there are small little things on the edges that I'm not self-hosting Gumroad yet, but mostly because it's still a bit rougher on the edges with the self-hosting experience. 2451 02:19:48,660 --> 02:19:50,020 Daniel: There's still a lot of things to set up. 2452 02:19:50,280 --> 02:19:59,420 Daniel: Just like yours, lots of integrations with third-party services with Stripe, you have to get approved, and with email providers and S3 and other things. 2453 02:19:59,540 --> 02:20:14,800 Daniel: But if it was simple, the possibility of me opening up Cursor and changing the cart experience a little bit and maybe changing how the back button works when you're in the checking cart and you want to go back. 2454 02:20:15,200 --> 02:20:21,840 Daniel: All these little things that, sure, I can bring up to Gumroad as a feature request, but I would rather just do them myself. 2455 02:20:22,100 --> 02:20:28,320 Daniel: Which, by the way, this is the benefit that Campfire is giving me right now in small batches, is that it's not even truly open-source. 2456 02:20:28,460 --> 02:20:31,280 Daniel: It's like you're saying, self-hosted, source-available. 2457 02:20:32,100 --> 02:20:43,920 Daniel: But when, you know, for this app, I needed to put a banner in the chat, I opened up Cursor, said, hey, add me a banner, and you know, 15 minutes later, it's deployed and it's done. 2458 02:20:44,000 --> 02:20:46,520 Daniel: I mean, you can't do that with Assess, right? 2459 02:20:46,600 --> 02:20:47,700 Daniel: I mean, it's not easy. 2460 02:20:48,340 --> 02:20:50,200 Daniel: So yeah, there's maybe that angle. 2461 02:20:50,960 --> 02:20:55,400 Nevo: But the question is how much you really... like, you know, think about this. 2462 02:20:55,460 --> 02:21:03,900 Nevo: Like, if right now Gumroad was on your computer with all the integration deployed, would you actually spend time in Cursor now to do different stuff? 2463 02:21:04,160 --> 02:21:08,800 Nevo: And you know, don't forget that you need to take care of deployment, scalability, and so on. 2464 02:21:09,320 --> 02:21:11,820 Daniel: Yeah, I think for a certain stage. 2465 02:21:11,920 --> 02:21:12,900 Daniel: So it depends, of course. 2466 02:21:13,100 --> 02:21:18,980 Daniel: You know, the new creator who's making $10 a month on Gumroad is not going to bother doing this. 2467 02:21:19,360 --> 02:21:24,660 Daniel: But you know, last year Smallbats made $600,000 and left it to Gumroad. 2468 02:21:24,880 --> 02:21:28,260 Daniel: I mean, it's a big deal. 2469 02:21:28,440 --> 02:21:33,680 Daniel: I mean, I would like to own more the checkout experience and the analytics and so on and so forth. 2470 02:21:34,060 --> 02:21:35,960 Daniel: So yeah, I mean, I absolutely would have. 2471 02:21:36,180 --> 02:21:40,680 Daniel: I mean, there's lots of little small things that I would prefer to be different. 2472 02:21:41,060 --> 02:21:50,400 Daniel: And yeah, if it was already checked, I already had the deployment set up and I just needed to just push something to GitHub and it just gets deployed. 2473 02:21:51,260 --> 02:21:51,700 Daniel: Absolutely. 2474 02:21:51,980 --> 02:21:59,100 Daniel: I mean, me, myself, I would basically have Cursor open all the time and just changing things. 2475 02:21:59,320 --> 02:22:00,800 Daniel: I mean, InCamp Fire is a good example. 2476 02:22:00,800 --> 02:22:16,320 Daniel: I mean, literally right now I have Cursor open in the background behind the Twitter window with the Campfire code and sort of pushed 400 commits over the last 12 months of small Campfire changes here and there. 2477 02:22:18,800 --> 02:22:20,380 Daniel: It's not a mass market thing. 2478 02:22:20,940 --> 02:22:23,160 Nevo: Don't you think it could be just like a little bit more customizable? 2479 02:22:24,400 --> 02:22:31,820 Nevo: You can just custom it better if they build it in a way that you can custom things better so you would not need to vibe code stuff. 2480 02:22:32,760 --> 02:22:34,160 Daniel: There's a tension, right? 2481 02:22:34,420 --> 02:22:39,320 Daniel: Because something like Gumroad is built for simplicity first. 2482 02:22:39,600 --> 02:22:52,200 Daniel: Like Nestor is saying, Gumroad has taken the less is more approach, mostly to help new creators and sellers just not get daunted with millions of different options and customizability. 2483 02:22:52,440 --> 02:23:03,320 Daniel: So what is happening right now with Gumroad a lot is when sellers become very big and they want more customizability they go and build their own thing and use Stripe directly or whatever. 2484 02:23:04,180 --> 02:23:05,280 Daniel: And that's fine. 2485 02:23:05,500 --> 02:23:08,640 Daniel: It's people who outgrow the system, whatever. 2486 02:23:08,880 --> 02:23:16,900 Daniel: But potentially nobody knows yet, the open source option gives these people to not necessarily exit the ecosystem directly. 2487 02:23:17,040 --> 02:23:24,800 Daniel: They might stop paying Gumroad their fees because they're self-hosting, but at least they remain in the ecosystem. 2488 02:23:24,800 --> 02:23:30,620 Daniel: They're still using the same software and they must still provide word of mouth, maybe even contribute back some things. 2489 02:23:31,040 --> 02:23:46,740 Daniel: Like for example, all the customizations I've made to Campfire, I sent an email to the 37signals team and I gave them access to my GitHub repo and told them, hey, guys, feel free to take everything, whatever you like. 2490 02:23:48,400 --> 02:23:53,660 Daniel: And if this was pure open source, I would have just opened a PR maybe and contributed back. 2491 02:23:54,980 --> 02:23:56,540 Daniel: So yeah, it's yet to be seen. 2492 02:23:56,800 --> 02:23:59,980 Daniel: So nobody knows yet if this is going to work out or not. 2493 02:24:00,080 --> 02:24:03,580 Daniel: But I think it's part of the motivation to try to have this happen. 2494 02:24:03,580 --> 02:24:09,040 Nevo: I think the biggest problem that they're going to face is for very big high earners. 2495 02:24:09,460 --> 02:24:16,720 Nevo: Because if you are a high earner on Gumroad, they take percentage from every sale that you make. 2496 02:24:18,280 --> 02:24:26,660 Nevo: If you self-host this and you put your own payment, provided you might increase your revenue by 20%, 30%, I don't know how much they take. 2497 02:24:27,560 --> 02:24:30,100 Nevo: That can be actually very big. 2498 02:24:30,300 --> 02:24:33,280 Daniel: But the thing is, these high earners are already leaving. 2499 02:24:33,540 --> 02:24:47,440 Daniel: Because like I said before, when you purchase a particular threshold, usually, let's consider other options, partly to reduce their fees and partly also to just get more console, more customizability, and so on and so forth. 2500 02:24:47,440 --> 02:24:51,900 Daniel: Okay, so Gumroad, generally speaking, they're turning to a lower type of audience. 2501 02:24:52,540 --> 02:25:03,260 Nesters: Yeah, it seems that addressing the lower market, because I was also going to bring up, but the issue is if you incentivize high earners to leave, you're just tanking your own revenue. 2502 02:25:03,480 --> 02:25:08,160 Nesters: That's obviously the obvious issue with this whole concept. 2503 02:25:08,260 --> 02:25:10,740 Nesters: But if they're already leaving, then maybe you can save some. 2504 02:25:10,860 --> 02:25:19,380 Nesters: I guess there is a point where perhaps Gumroad can still offer something even if they transfer to self-hosted in terms of support or something. 2505 02:25:19,540 --> 02:25:20,900 Nesters: Maybe there's an angle, you know? 2506 02:25:22,160 --> 02:25:28,500 Nesters: Maybe there's some kind of service they can upsell for a percentage share of that revenue, perhaps. 2507 02:25:28,860 --> 02:25:33,280 Nevo: No, but from what it sounds like, they're not after high earners. 2508 02:25:33,460 --> 02:25:36,220 Nevo: This is not their ICP, from what it sounds like. 2509 02:25:36,360 --> 02:25:42,080 Nevo: Because it sounds like today, at least, high earners move to different platforms, basically. 2510 02:25:43,600 --> 02:25:48,140 Daniel: If you open the landing page, it's literally go from $0 to $1. 2511 02:25:48,620 --> 02:25:52,720 Daniel: It's literally the main slogan and tagline of Gumroad. 2512 02:25:52,840 --> 02:25:54,480 Daniel: It's like, get started. 2513 02:25:55,460 --> 02:26:00,720 Daniel: And I think the tool is literally designed and specialized, and it always has been. 2514 02:26:01,140 --> 02:26:16,520 Daniel: It sort of drags up a file, and now you're selling it without all the daunting sophistications of something like Stripe, which, of course, is way, way more powerful, but more complex. 2515 02:26:16,720 --> 02:26:17,160 Daniel: So, yeah. 2516 02:26:19,160 --> 02:26:20,680 Nevo: But honestly, I've never used Gumroad. 2517 02:26:20,860 --> 02:26:27,940 Nevo: Does Gumroad, is a platform like, I don't know, like AppSumo and stuff, that when you put stuff there, they also bring their own traffic to you internally? 2518 02:26:28,060 --> 02:26:28,740 Daniel: No, not really. 2519 02:26:29,160 --> 02:26:33,880 Daniel: I mean, there is a marketplace, but it's not that popular. 2520 02:26:34,280 --> 02:26:35,860 Daniel: So, not like AppSumo. 2521 02:26:36,460 --> 02:26:39,340 Daniel: So, no, it's mostly for you to bring your own audience. 2522 02:26:39,480 --> 02:26:41,840 Daniel: I mean, that's what I would recommend people to see it. 2523 02:26:43,640 --> 02:26:43,980 Daniel: But, yeah. 2524 02:26:45,880 --> 02:26:50,000 Daniel: Effectively, it's a Stripe wrapper, with some fancy tools. 2525 02:26:50,160 --> 02:26:52,960 Daniel: There's email marketing built in for free. 2526 02:26:53,380 --> 02:26:58,580 Daniel: So, like, you know, something that you might, like a mini convert kit type of software. 2527 02:26:58,740 --> 02:26:59,320 Daniel: There's analytics. 2528 02:27:00,060 --> 02:27:07,580 Daniel: There's discounts, affiliates, all sorts of these little things that you would have to build yourself, like if you were to use Stripe your own. 2529 02:27:07,860 --> 02:27:13,140 Daniel: Or you could use something more sophisticated, like Shopify or other things. 2530 02:27:13,320 --> 02:27:16,540 Nevo: But why would somebody use Gumroad? 2531 02:27:16,720 --> 02:27:20,080 Nevo: Just because it's very fast to go and put it? 2532 02:27:20,280 --> 02:27:22,300 Nevo: Like, why would I just not go to Shopify immediately? 2533 02:27:22,760 --> 02:27:23,100 Daniel: Yeah, yeah. 2534 02:27:23,280 --> 02:27:26,320 Daniel: So, I think it's part of blending, like we said. 2535 02:27:26,460 --> 02:27:28,340 Daniel: It's just, you know, that's how I started. 2536 02:27:28,700 --> 02:27:32,840 Daniel: Basically, I self-published a book six years ago. 2537 02:27:33,360 --> 02:27:36,400 Daniel: And the people I knew who were self-publishing books were using Gumroad. 2538 02:27:36,580 --> 02:27:38,060 Daniel: So, you know, I went to Gumroad. 2539 02:27:38,200 --> 02:27:41,360 Daniel: I didn't even think too much about alternatives. 2540 02:27:41,900 --> 02:27:47,200 Daniel: But I think what gets people hooked to the experience is just the simplicity of it. 2541 02:27:47,340 --> 02:27:51,900 Daniel: It's like the Dropbox selling point when it started. 2542 02:27:52,100 --> 02:27:56,440 Daniel: There were many other ways of sharing files, but Dropbox just made it so easy. 2543 02:27:56,680 --> 02:28:00,760 Daniel: You just install this thing and suddenly you have file sync around. 2544 02:28:01,140 --> 02:28:03,280 Daniel: And Gumroad has the same kind of feel, right? 2545 02:28:03,320 --> 02:28:14,260 Daniel: You open an account, you log a file to your dashboard, you give it a name, you set a price, and suddenly you have a homepage on the internet that can accept payments. 2546 02:28:14,800 --> 02:28:19,500 Daniel: And if someone pays you, like a week later, you get your money in your bank account. 2547 02:28:20,540 --> 02:28:21,860 Daniel: It's simplicity, right? 2548 02:28:23,240 --> 02:28:24,040 Daniel: Big focus. 2549 02:28:25,220 --> 02:28:30,900 Nesters: Stripe is simple for developers, for example, but honestly, navigating Stripe, for example, is harder than Gumroad. 2550 02:28:31,680 --> 02:28:33,560 Nesters: Stripe is like a payment provider. 2551 02:28:33,720 --> 02:28:34,080 Nesters: It's different. 2552 02:28:34,400 --> 02:28:35,340 Nesters: Yeah, but that's what I mean. 2553 02:28:35,660 --> 02:28:38,020 Nesters: You could start easily with Stripe, technically. 2554 02:28:38,180 --> 02:28:42,700 Nesters: And for developers, Stripe was a really good improvement and developer experience. 2555 02:28:43,260 --> 02:28:49,600 Nesters: But for setting up for selling even with payment links, the Stripe doesn't feel intuitive compared to just starting with Gumroad. 2556 02:28:49,820 --> 02:28:53,320 Nesters: But obviously, the fee difference with Gumroad is significantly higher. 2557 02:28:53,460 --> 02:28:54,540 Nesters: It's just easier to start. 2558 02:28:55,100 --> 02:28:58,300 Nevo: Gumroad also selling subscriptions or it's only one-time payments? 2559 02:28:58,300 --> 02:28:58,740 Daniel: Both. 2560 02:28:59,140 --> 02:28:59,980 Daniel: So it has both. 2561 02:29:00,120 --> 02:29:02,200 Daniel: The subscription feature is also quite sophisticated. 2562 02:29:02,760 --> 02:29:13,480 Daniel: You can have a subscription and after a while, you could have license keys to support software licenses and verify them through Gumroad as well. 2563 02:29:13,500 --> 02:29:19,520 Daniel: So there's all these little features that just help make the product a bit more rich. 2564 02:29:19,840 --> 02:29:22,080 Daniel: For example, recently, they added installment plans. 2565 02:29:23,820 --> 02:29:31,700 Nesters: I guess, to Nevo's point, I do agree that it's a little bit probably hard with that self-hosted Gumroad upsell, in a way. 2566 02:29:32,380 --> 02:29:35,660 Nesters: Because I can also make parallels with even with Shopify. 2567 02:29:35,940 --> 02:29:40,280 Nesters: Because Shopify has their theme system, which is their hosted frontend. 2568 02:29:40,360 --> 02:29:41,260 Nesters: You can use your theme. 2569 02:29:41,800 --> 02:29:45,520 Nesters: And there are sections and everything, how you set up content on your website. 2570 02:29:45,680 --> 02:29:50,720 Nesters: And then you can use the API to do a so-called headless platform. 2571 02:29:50,980 --> 02:29:57,880 Nesters: So you would use Next.js framework for your frontend and you'd use just API to hook everything up from Shopify's data. 2572 02:29:58,940 --> 02:30:00,220 Nesters: They bought Remix for that. 2573 02:30:00,400 --> 02:30:02,440 Nesters: Yeah, they even bought it. 2574 02:30:02,700 --> 02:30:06,380 Nesters: But it goes back to 2016-17 when you could start. 2575 02:30:07,620 --> 02:30:10,240 Nesters: But anyway, they started that. 2576 02:30:10,840 --> 02:30:23,840 Nesters: But the problem is that even from the large volume stores who need a lot of customization, a small percentage has actually switched over to having that custom headless experience. 2577 02:30:24,060 --> 02:30:25,880 Nesters: It's a single-digit percentage. 2578 02:30:26,040 --> 02:30:32,200 Nesters: Even in the high-volume stores that usually require just a little bit of that additional. 2579 02:30:32,300 --> 02:30:35,940 Nesters: So they just stay with the standard Shopify platform. 2580 02:30:36,020 --> 02:30:36,940 Nesters: Because it simplifies. 2581 02:30:37,040 --> 02:30:38,800 Nesters: You don't want to become a technology company. 2582 02:30:38,940 --> 02:30:40,900 Nesters: I think that's the main friction point even with Gumroad. 2583 02:30:40,980 --> 02:30:43,300 Nesters: You don't want to become the technical person sometimes. 2584 02:30:43,300 --> 02:30:44,260 Nesters: You just want the service. 2585 02:30:44,840 --> 02:30:51,420 Nesters: I think that's the argument against self-hosted as working as a great channel. 2586 02:30:51,860 --> 02:30:55,060 Nesters: But it works, I guess, towards specifically the technical people. 2587 02:30:55,340 --> 02:30:58,020 Nesters: And that's how they're doing the hackathon now as well. 2588 02:30:58,640 --> 02:31:07,680 Nesters: I think that market with the self-hosted part might not connect as well with a greater audience. 2589 02:31:07,840 --> 02:31:13,800 Nevo: By the way, you raised the point that we haven't touched at all on this whole thing. 2590 02:31:14,020 --> 02:31:16,780 Nevo: I think it's a very important point also for Gumroad, for everybody. 2591 02:31:17,800 --> 02:31:20,300 Nevo: It's the open source community itself. 2592 02:31:20,660 --> 02:31:22,600 Nevo: How do you build your open source repository? 2593 02:31:23,200 --> 02:31:27,460 Nevo: I can build an open source repository that I'm the only contributor in this repository. 2594 02:31:27,720 --> 02:31:28,860 Nevo: It can still be very big. 2595 02:31:29,900 --> 02:31:32,580 Nevo: But I have literally no contributors. 2596 02:31:33,160 --> 02:31:33,960 Nevo: No contributors. 2597 02:31:35,740 --> 02:31:41,180 Nevo: For example, if you look for... Posties has one alternative in open source, a lot smaller. 2598 02:31:41,760 --> 02:31:43,020 Nevo: It started a lot before me. 2599 02:31:43,440 --> 02:31:44,320 Nevo: It's called MixPost. 2600 02:31:46,560 --> 02:31:47,120 Nevo: MixPost? 2601 02:31:47,200 --> 02:31:47,820 Nevo: Yeah, MixPost. 2602 02:31:48,400 --> 02:31:59,020 Nevo: If you look at them, MixPost has 1.7 K stars on GitHub, but they have three contributors only. 2603 02:31:59,760 --> 02:32:04,280 Nevo: And the three contributors on this project is actually the team that build the product. 2604 02:32:04,680 --> 02:32:07,440 Nevo: So they literally don't accept any contributions from people. 2605 02:32:07,600 --> 02:32:08,200 Nevo: They don't really... 2606 02:32:08,200 --> 02:32:10,520 Nevo: They run open source, but don't really run open source. 2607 02:32:11,340 --> 02:32:16,220 Nevo: They just run it, I guess, for marketing or something like that. 2608 02:32:16,660 --> 02:32:18,120 Nevo: And how is it in Posties? 2609 02:32:18,500 --> 02:32:26,220 Nevo: No, Posties is different, because in Posties, we adapt the whole notion of working with GitHub. 2610 02:32:26,680 --> 02:32:27,500 Nevo: So I'll give you an example. 2611 02:32:28,440 --> 02:32:35,080 Nevo: When you are an indie hacker or a developer, what you do... How do you push your code? 2612 02:32:35,500 --> 02:32:38,120 Nevo: You just do commit and then push, usually. 2613 02:32:38,420 --> 02:32:38,900 Nevo: Most people. 2614 02:32:39,600 --> 02:32:42,200 Nevo: But when you are in open source, for example, you will not do that. 2615 02:32:42,560 --> 02:32:43,760 Nevo: You will create a pull request. 2616 02:32:44,060 --> 02:32:48,540 Nevo: I know it's annoying, but you need to create a pull request for your repository. 2617 02:32:49,440 --> 02:32:54,140 Nevo: And if you have a new feature that you want to develop, you will not start to develop it immediately. 2618 02:32:54,540 --> 02:33:02,920 Nevo: You will open an issue or a discussion on GitHub that you're going to create this, basically, to get the community into this whole thing, basically. 2619 02:33:04,160 --> 02:33:05,580 Nevo: So very, very different. 2620 02:33:06,440 --> 02:33:08,760 Nevo: And this is why it's so hard to run an open source community. 2621 02:33:10,420 --> 02:33:12,480 Nevo: And this has happened to me, by the way. 2622 02:33:12,560 --> 02:33:17,720 Nevo: I was a lot more community, and then over time, I started to be more... 2623 02:33:17,720 --> 02:33:26,620 Nevo: I just push my own stuff, make my own things, and I have some mods that are maintaining the other issues and pull requests. 2624 02:33:27,320 --> 02:33:28,280 Nevo: But it's not good. 2625 02:33:29,020 --> 02:33:38,200 Nevo: You should be more checking all the issues, checking all the pull requests, review different stuff, not only focus on... 2626 02:33:38,200 --> 02:33:42,640 Nevo: Because as the open source maintainer, me, I build most of the code. 2627 02:33:43,160 --> 02:33:44,720 Nevo: It's like 99% mine. 2628 02:33:45,240 --> 02:33:48,160 Nevo: I deliver things 10 times faster than anybody else. 2629 02:33:49,020 --> 02:33:55,700 Nevo: Like, if somebody's making a feature, probably with all the bugs and things that have inside, it's better if I do it. 2630 02:33:55,780 --> 02:33:58,060 Nevo: It will be a lot faster if they do it. 2631 02:33:59,240 --> 02:34:01,700 Nevo: But it's not good to take this way when you build open source. 2632 02:34:02,080 --> 02:34:06,880 Nevo: You need to check everybody's pull requests, you need to give feedback, you need to teach and so on. 2633 02:34:07,120 --> 02:34:09,140 Nevo: That's usually the way to do the open source stuff. 2634 02:34:09,720 --> 02:34:16,360 Nevo: It's just not fun sometimes, especially if you're stressed, if you're like a single developer, like you're not a whole company with a team and so on. 2635 02:34:17,220 --> 02:34:21,000 Nevo: So, yeah, it's better that way. 2636 02:34:24,120 --> 02:34:25,820 Vlad: It's not for everyone. 2637 02:34:26,360 --> 02:34:30,600 Vlad: I've been suffering from an open source project for the past 13 years. 2638 02:34:31,340 --> 02:34:35,060 Vlad: It's really draining if you don't have that mindset. 2639 02:34:36,800 --> 02:34:43,020 Vlad: I have this problem where people keep trying to contribute, but it's not... 2640 02:34:43,020 --> 02:34:51,860 Vlad: I even archived the project for a while because people keep opening the same issues over and over again, and I just get burnt out. 2641 02:34:52,380 --> 02:34:53,820 Nevo: No, so issues is different. 2642 02:34:53,960 --> 02:35:05,300 Nevo: So issues, I have a strict thing in the project that when somebody opens an issue, if it's an installation problem, I close the issue immediately, and I say, join our Discord, ask it there. 2643 02:35:05,380 --> 02:35:09,580 Nevo: Because I don't want the project to be spammed with the installation problem, because everybody has one. 2644 02:35:09,880 --> 02:35:13,840 Nevo: Every time you have a problem, you will open a ticket, and it will be flooded with issues. 2645 02:35:13,920 --> 02:35:14,620 Nevo: So, this one, not. 2646 02:35:15,340 --> 02:35:19,560 Nevo: But, you know, bugs, and feature requests, like people opening all the time. 2647 02:35:20,220 --> 02:35:21,060 Nevo: Issue is one thing. 2648 02:35:21,160 --> 02:35:22,620 Nevo: You comment, it's all good. 2649 02:35:23,900 --> 02:35:25,800 Nevo: Pull request is our biggest enemy. 2650 02:35:26,060 --> 02:35:26,840 Nevo: It's very hard. 2651 02:35:26,980 --> 02:35:33,140 Nevo: Somebody make a pull request, and then you need to review it, you need to put it on your computer, try it. 2652 02:35:33,220 --> 02:35:35,020 Nevo: It might not be exactly in your roadmap. 2653 02:35:35,440 --> 02:35:36,820 Nevo: It might be a small enhancement. 2654 02:35:37,960 --> 02:35:40,140 Nevo: You don't have a lot of attention. 2655 02:35:40,980 --> 02:35:42,860 Nevo: And maybe they didn't do it right. 2656 02:35:43,260 --> 02:35:47,540 Nevo: Because, you know, PostEase, compared to other many social media scheduling tools, is very modular. 2657 02:35:48,120 --> 02:35:53,640 Nevo: So, for example, if you want to create a new social media channel now, you don't need to create 10 pages. 2658 02:35:53,760 --> 02:35:54,380 Nevo: It's one file. 2659 02:35:54,440 --> 02:35:56,460 Nevo: It's one file of the provider, because it's very modular. 2660 02:35:56,460 --> 02:36:07,100 Nevo: But if somebody make me a pull request that is very not modular, it's like, now if I want to clone the things that I don't need to duplicate 10 times, then I can't approve it, but I still need to check it. 2661 02:36:07,180 --> 02:36:11,540 Nevo: And I'm still wasting so much time just on checking this, basically. 2662 02:36:12,120 --> 02:36:20,040 Nevo: So, this is the biggest problem, especially as one developer in the project that do the marketing, selling. 2663 02:36:20,260 --> 02:36:24,580 Nevo: His entire life depends on this project, because the main income of his revenue every month. 2664 02:36:25,760 --> 02:36:31,200 Nevo: Shifting now to check pull requests, you need a very big mindset for that, basically. 2665 02:36:32,520 --> 02:36:39,340 Nesters: Yeah, that's all the mindset, the kind of person you need to be, and how you need to approach this. 2666 02:36:39,420 --> 02:36:46,600 Nesters: That's why I was also asking you very early in the app was about that, because you need the right approach, obviously. 2667 02:36:46,780 --> 02:37:03,060 Nesters: You need to have some mindset that's not conflicting with that idea of open source, and both from just pushing it out in public, because I think the one reason when you mentioned about the whole thing about why is there not so much software in open source, 2668 02:37:03,220 --> 02:37:05,660 Nesters: I mean, I think we know one very good reason. 2669 02:37:05,820 --> 02:37:13,440 Nesters: It's the same as there's not that many people in build in public, because people don't want to expose themselves, their ideas, and everything. 2670 02:37:13,600 --> 02:37:17,320 Nesters: And sometimes they feel like, my idea is so valuable, I'm going to hold on to it. 2671 02:37:17,340 --> 02:37:21,240 Nesters: I'm not going to tell anyone, but also I'm not going to launch it, so no one knows. 2672 02:37:21,520 --> 02:37:27,180 Nesters: And obviously, talking about it gives some exposure to it, you start understanding whether people even want it or not. 2673 02:37:27,640 --> 02:37:35,160 Nesters: And open source, in a way, is similar in that context, that people just feel very protective about their stuff, whether that's their ego, whether that's their idea, it doesn't matter. 2674 02:37:35,340 --> 02:37:45,540 Nesters: But even the money, like the money you could earn, that's another protective aspect of why you don't want to share it publicly, because you feel like you might not make as much money if someone steals it. 2675 02:37:46,580 --> 02:37:50,340 Nevo: Yeah, but a lot of stuff that looks like open source, they're not. 2676 02:37:50,480 --> 02:37:57,520 Nevo: You remember that Twitter created a repository and they call it The Algorithm, and they share all this code? 2677 02:37:57,740 --> 02:38:01,640 Nevo: Yeah, that bullshit, it's not updated for like two years now. 2678 02:38:01,640 --> 02:38:03,780 Nevo: Of course not, it was just a marketing move. 2679 02:38:03,880 --> 02:38:07,100 Nevo: Nobody contributed code to this, nobody doing anything with it. 2680 02:38:07,140 --> 02:38:09,020 Nevo: It's just for marketing. 2681 02:38:09,820 --> 02:38:13,440 Nevo: And if you do your open source like this, it will be very hard for you to grow it. 2682 02:38:13,440 --> 02:38:23,220 Nevo: Like, when people understand this is not a community and they can't contribute, they can't do stuff with it, yes, people might use it not as a community, like actually use the product because they need your product. 2683 02:38:23,500 --> 02:38:24,680 Nevo: It's open source, great. 2684 02:38:25,300 --> 02:38:28,060 Nevo: But you will just not be able to build a community around it. 2685 02:38:29,200 --> 02:38:38,080 Nesters: Yeah, it reminded me also of the Marquis Brownlee releasing his mobile app and then saying, oh, it's built in public, that's why it has bugs after it was not received well. 2686 02:38:38,180 --> 02:38:46,700 Nesters: Like, you can't just borrow some kind of hashtag or movement and be like, oh, all the problems are because of this, you know. 2687 02:38:47,840 --> 02:38:51,440 Nevo: I mean, bugs is a skill, you know. 2688 02:38:51,680 --> 02:38:55,500 Nevo: I think the more time you program the less bugs you have, usually. 2689 02:38:55,800 --> 02:38:56,340 Nevo: Skill issue, yeah. 2690 02:38:57,060 --> 02:39:03,820 Nevo: But I think the more time you wipe code, the more bugs you have also. 2691 02:39:04,840 --> 02:39:09,220 Nesters: Oh, yeah, the wipe coding has sort of a limit, yeah. 2692 02:39:09,220 --> 02:39:13,620 Nesters: The less you understand over time and the less you're introducing with a larger codebase. 2693 02:39:13,660 --> 02:39:14,360 Nevo: No, it becomes numb, you know. 2694 02:39:14,620 --> 02:39:18,900 Nevo: Today I gave Corso to make a whole page and stuff and I'm just like, okay, it's working. 2695 02:39:19,040 --> 02:39:20,320 Nevo: I didn't even check the code, you know. 2696 02:39:20,400 --> 02:39:21,040 Nevo: Okay, it's working. 2697 02:39:21,680 --> 02:39:23,740 Nevo: Who knows, maybe there's a bug somewhere. 2698 02:39:24,600 --> 02:39:27,660 Nevo: You don't even check, basically, so... 2699 02:39:27,660 --> 02:39:29,140 Nesters: You're not even checking anymore, yeah? 2700 02:39:30,040 --> 02:39:30,720 Nesters: I don't know. 2701 02:39:30,820 --> 02:39:34,520 Nesters: I mean, actually, I also did wipe code some things that I didn't actually check. 2702 02:39:34,580 --> 02:39:35,340 Nesters: Maybe they're bugged. 2703 02:39:36,640 --> 02:39:37,080 Nesters: But... 2704 02:39:38,220 --> 02:39:40,820 Nevo: I actually have a motto for wipe coding. 2705 02:39:41,400 --> 02:39:45,100 Nevo: The backend, I never wipe code in the backend, only in the frontend. 2706 02:39:45,700 --> 02:39:51,800 Nevo: The backend I usually build myself, because I realized that Corso is not so good in building modular stuff. 2707 02:39:52,640 --> 02:39:56,340 Nevo: It's good in building very functional stuff, like, okay, create the page and stuff. 2708 02:39:56,700 --> 02:39:59,080 Nevo: But if you look at Postit, it's like a whole framework, right? 2709 02:39:59,280 --> 02:40:07,680 Nevo: If you want to add a new social media provider, you just implement some interface, and then you will get this provider in Postit, with all the plugs, with everything inside. 2710 02:40:08,120 --> 02:40:10,780 Nevo: You don't expect this from Corso. 2711 02:40:11,860 --> 02:40:18,500 Nesters: By the way, when we talked like half an hour ago and you said people are tired, I realized it's past midnight for you. 2712 02:40:18,660 --> 02:40:19,780 Nesters: So were you tired? 2713 02:40:21,080 --> 02:40:23,180 Nesters: Nah, I'm awake every day at this time. 2714 02:40:23,380 --> 02:40:26,440 Nevo: Even though tomorrow I'm going to a trip to Kosovo. 2715 02:40:27,700 --> 02:40:28,160 Nesters: Okay. 2716 02:40:28,580 --> 02:40:32,480 Nesters: Because I was like, maybe you were just tired, and then we're just going on for 40 minutes. 2717 02:40:32,560 --> 02:40:41,160 Nesters: And my secret strategy was to just beat the length of the record for the length of the app, and we beat it like 10 minutes ago, so it's actually fine to end it now. 2718 02:40:42,380 --> 02:40:43,820 Nesters: But we can continue going. 2719 02:40:43,960 --> 02:40:45,880 Nesters: Dennis, I think, has another question. 2720 02:40:46,800 --> 02:40:47,620 Nevo: I'm all good. 2721 02:40:48,160 --> 02:40:49,320 Nevo: We are just going to wake up. 2722 02:40:49,420 --> 02:40:52,760 Nevo: Now it's 12 41 AM our time. 2723 02:40:53,400 --> 02:40:56,300 Nevo: And tomorrow morning we're going to Kosovo, if you know. 2724 02:40:56,640 --> 02:40:59,060 Nevo: It's a little bit outside of Phuket, Thailand. 2725 02:41:00,740 --> 02:41:01,600 Nevo: It'll be nice. 2726 02:41:02,660 --> 02:41:03,640 Nesters: Unfortunately, I don't know. 2727 02:41:03,860 --> 02:41:06,180 Nesters: I mean, I should visit some point, probably. 2728 02:41:06,340 --> 02:41:08,780 Nesters: I just don't like the very humid hot weather, usually. 2729 02:41:09,120 --> 02:41:11,300 Nesters: So maybe you can recommend which season should I go to? 2730 02:41:11,680 --> 02:41:15,540 Nesters: Which season is the best if you don't like too much heat and humidity? 2731 02:41:16,020 --> 02:41:17,740 Nesters: Nobody likes to sweat, believe me. 2732 02:41:17,940 --> 02:41:18,660 Nesters: It's not fun. 2733 02:41:19,260 --> 02:41:23,640 Nesters: Can you recommend me the time of the year which is more tolerable? 2734 02:41:26,660 --> 02:41:27,120 Nevo: Between... 2735 02:41:27,580 --> 02:41:28,600 Nevo: It's more expensive. 2736 02:41:28,800 --> 02:41:30,340 Nevo: This is when all the tourists are coming. 2737 02:41:30,580 --> 02:41:32,260 Nevo: It's when it's usually winter in Europe. 2738 02:41:32,420 --> 02:41:36,520 Nevo: So between January to May it's usually the best time to come. 2739 02:41:38,100 --> 02:41:39,960 Nevo: Yeah, it's going to be more expensive, obviously. 2740 02:41:40,760 --> 02:41:42,700 Nevo: Yeah, because now it's like the raining season. 2741 02:41:42,920 --> 02:41:43,640 Nevo: It's raining all the time. 2742 02:41:43,740 --> 02:41:44,940 Nevo: It's very humid, hot. 2743 02:41:47,800 --> 02:41:53,880 Nesters: Yeah, I like visiting places a little bit off-season because that's the cheap, like a cheaper time but still good enough. 2744 02:41:54,840 --> 02:41:56,640 Nevo: You don't live in Thailand for the weather. 2745 02:41:56,880 --> 02:41:58,360 Nevo: I mean, you go to vacation for the weather. 2746 02:41:58,840 --> 02:41:59,820 Nevo: You live because it's cheap. 2747 02:42:01,300 --> 02:42:03,880 Nevo: So, that's the thing. 2748 02:42:06,080 --> 02:42:11,780 Nesters: Well, I definitely don't live where I still am in Latvia, which is my home country for the weather either. 2749 02:42:12,180 --> 02:42:14,420 Nesters: The weather is nice now in the summer time. 2750 02:42:14,480 --> 02:42:15,440 Nesters: It's actually not bad. 2751 02:42:15,540 --> 02:42:18,560 Nesters: It's getting better because the climate change, etc. 2752 02:42:18,620 --> 02:42:20,120 Nesters: It's become warmer and more sunny. 2753 02:42:20,240 --> 02:42:22,080 Nesters: So it's actually better in a sense. 2754 02:42:22,500 --> 02:42:24,400 Nesters: But I don't live here for the weather. 2755 02:42:24,560 --> 02:42:27,100 Nesters: It's also, first of all, home and also cheaper. 2756 02:42:27,880 --> 02:42:29,700 Nevo: By the way, I want to say one more thing. 2757 02:42:29,840 --> 02:42:33,040 Nevo: Maybe before we go, an opportunity that I discovered in the market. 2758 02:42:34,460 --> 02:42:35,440 Nevo: Take it if you want. 2759 02:42:35,540 --> 02:42:37,680 Nevo: I know that not a lot of people like to talk about it. 2760 02:42:37,760 --> 02:42:42,720 Nevo: Again, this is for the shady stuff that they usually put outside. 2761 02:42:43,100 --> 02:42:44,100 Nesters: Let's get one more. 2762 02:42:45,400 --> 02:42:46,140 Nevo: Extremely shady. 2763 02:42:46,740 --> 02:42:51,940 Nevo: But I think this is an opportunity for people to make a lot of money in a different way. 2764 02:42:52,280 --> 02:42:52,620 Nevo: Basically. 2765 02:42:54,280 --> 02:42:56,780 Nevo: Anybody here in this channel are into crypto? 2766 02:42:59,880 --> 02:43:01,500 Nesters: I exited at some point. 2767 02:43:01,660 --> 02:43:04,260 Nesters: I have some crypto, but I haven't sold it yet. 2768 02:43:04,340 --> 02:43:05,540 Nesters: I just don't want to look at it. 2769 02:43:06,460 --> 02:43:12,440 Nevo: Okay, so apparently and I've seen my project also blew up when I did it. 2770 02:43:14,100 --> 02:43:16,360 Nevo: The crypto market is the most scammiest market. 2771 02:43:16,360 --> 02:43:18,240 Nevo: Oh no, you launched the coin, didn't you? 2772 02:43:18,240 --> 02:43:18,720 Nevo: Yeah. 2773 02:43:19,860 --> 02:43:24,420 Nevo: The crypto market is one of the most scammiest markets possible. 2774 02:43:24,840 --> 02:43:25,680 Nevo: What do I mean by that? 2775 02:43:26,200 --> 02:43:28,940 Nevo: When I have my open source, this is my go-to marketing. 2776 02:43:29,440 --> 02:43:33,640 Nevo: With every open source thing that I open, I see the most active person on Discord. 2777 02:43:33,880 --> 02:43:35,220 Nevo: I make him a mod immediately. 2778 02:43:35,360 --> 02:43:36,880 Nevo: Give him all the rights possible. 2779 02:43:37,620 --> 02:43:40,520 Nevo: Writing for the repository, writing for the Discord, everything. 2780 02:43:40,900 --> 02:43:41,840 Nevo: All the permission possible. 2781 02:43:42,960 --> 02:43:49,000 Nevo: If you do this in crypto, the person will announce that there is a new token or something and take ownership. 2782 02:43:49,920 --> 02:43:52,000 Nevo: It's the most scammiest market possible. 2783 02:43:52,440 --> 02:44:02,360 Nevo: But what it means that it's the most scammiest is that people got burned so many times with all these meme coins and things like that. 2784 02:44:03,300 --> 02:44:07,840 Nevo: And people are looking for good things to put their money on. 2785 02:44:08,880 --> 02:44:15,780 Nevo: And lately, the biggest thing that people have done is launching coins on open source repositories. 2786 02:44:16,360 --> 02:44:24,060 Nevo: So they take our repositories, they get it to a certain amount of level with stars, and they launch it as a coin. 2787 02:44:24,460 --> 02:44:29,040 Nevo: And when they launch it as a coin, this becomes the treasury basically. 2788 02:44:29,220 --> 02:44:31,780 Nevo: This becomes the way that they make money. 2789 02:44:31,860 --> 02:44:36,240 Nevo: They don't expect to make money from the actual product, like sell it to people. 2790 02:44:36,320 --> 02:44:37,300 Nevo: They make it as a coin. 2791 02:44:38,380 --> 02:44:45,500 Nevo: And I can tell you that people are creating with PumpFun coins on these agents. 2792 02:44:45,680 --> 02:44:47,420 Nevo: They make millions on the first day. 2793 02:44:47,800 --> 02:44:48,900 Nevo: It's a bit insane. 2794 02:44:50,340 --> 02:44:51,540 Nevo: It's not for everybody. 2795 02:44:52,920 --> 02:44:54,960 Nevo: Do you have a coin? 2796 02:44:55,460 --> 02:44:56,280 Nevo: Yeah, I have a coin. 2797 02:44:56,640 --> 02:45:07,180 Nevo: When I launched the coin, the moment that I launched it, it skyrocketed to $17 million market cap at the second that I launched it. 2798 02:45:08,660 --> 02:45:14,600 Nevo: So I think, generally speaking, it's an opportunity especially if they're looking for AI agents and stuff like that. 2799 02:45:15,300 --> 02:45:16,620 Nevo: If you're into that, do it. 2800 02:45:16,980 --> 02:45:18,020 Nevo: Don't scam anybody. 2801 02:45:18,220 --> 02:45:18,840 Nevo: Don't frag pool. 2802 02:45:19,280 --> 02:45:20,260 Nevo: Don't do anything shady. 2803 02:45:20,780 --> 02:45:23,880 Nevo: Just grow it and take profit slowly. 2804 02:45:25,240 --> 02:45:28,060 Nevo: But this is another opportunity that people don't think about. 2805 02:45:28,160 --> 02:45:30,360 Nevo: It's not the SaaS way basically. 2806 02:45:31,720 --> 02:45:33,180 Nevo: Just food for thought. 2807 02:45:35,480 --> 02:45:36,940 Nevo: Yeah, it's a CAS way. 2808 02:45:37,040 --> 02:45:38,140 Nevo: The crypto as a start. 2809 02:45:38,560 --> 02:45:43,600 Nevo: I can tell you that open source people hate crypto people like crazy. 2810 02:45:44,060 --> 02:45:44,760 Nevo: Yeah, definitely. 2811 02:45:45,440 --> 02:45:50,160 Nevo: The biggest contributors that I had left my project because of crypto. 2812 02:45:51,560 --> 02:45:54,760 Nevo: This is an ups and downs to everything. 2813 02:45:56,780 --> 02:46:00,600 Nesters: So you do tank some reputation. 2814 02:46:00,860 --> 02:46:03,940 Nesters: You do take a reputation hit with the coin launch, right? 2815 02:46:05,240 --> 02:46:06,820 Nevo: In the open source space, yes. 2816 02:46:07,060 --> 02:46:11,480 Nevo: Because crypto is not because of the scam and stuff. 2817 02:46:12,960 --> 02:46:13,900 Nevo: I've seen this. 2818 02:46:14,100 --> 02:46:15,180 Nevo: I had one contributor. 2819 02:46:15,300 --> 02:46:16,280 Nevo: He was my best contributor. 2820 02:46:16,500 --> 02:46:18,140 Nevo: He created so much stuff for me in the repository. 2821 02:46:18,300 --> 02:46:20,180 Nevo: The Docker, different kind of stuff and so on. 2822 02:46:23,560 --> 02:46:27,040 Nevo: And maybe many people in the open source community are like, I'm not like that. 2823 02:46:27,400 --> 02:46:28,740 Nevo: I'm a whole in capitalist. 2824 02:46:28,980 --> 02:46:31,440 Nevo: But he's very much like a socialist and stuff. 2825 02:46:32,900 --> 02:46:34,720 Nevo: I don't quote for money. 2826 02:46:34,860 --> 02:46:35,940 Nevo: I just like to code. 2827 02:46:36,140 --> 02:46:36,900 Nevo: This is my thing. 2828 02:46:37,000 --> 02:46:37,520 Nevo: This is my fun. 2829 02:46:38,700 --> 02:46:41,120 Nevo: He told me that he's going with his wife to a vacation. 2830 02:46:41,660 --> 02:46:43,920 Nevo: And he said, oh, finally, I will have so much time to program. 2831 02:46:44,160 --> 02:46:47,760 Nevo: This is the type of people that I work with in the open source. 2832 02:46:47,860 --> 02:46:48,560 Nevo: A little bit weird. 2833 02:46:48,640 --> 02:46:49,920 Nevo: It's not something that I'm used to. 2834 02:46:50,500 --> 02:46:57,840 Nevo: But when I told him about the coin, he said, no, crypto, it pollutes the world. 2835 02:46:57,980 --> 02:46:58,940 Nevo: So much electricity. 2836 02:46:59,200 --> 02:47:01,560 Nevo: You're just destroying the environment and stuff like that. 2837 02:47:02,400 --> 02:47:05,820 Nevo: Maybe this is a common thing for... 2838 02:47:05,820 --> 02:47:10,300 Nesters: It doesn't even use that much electricity on those chains, right? 2839 02:47:11,460 --> 02:47:14,420 Nesters: Every computer is supposed to work in order to... 2840 02:47:14,420 --> 02:47:20,300 Nesters: I thought those chains were actually relatively efficient nowadays. 2841 02:47:20,980 --> 02:47:22,740 Nesters: The main chains they're running on. 2842 02:47:23,360 --> 02:47:26,480 Nevo: I can totally understand why you don't like it. 2843 02:47:26,520 --> 02:47:32,700 Nevo: Because I've been one day in this crypto market after I launched the coin, and so many people send me messages like, I'm going to kill you. 2844 02:47:32,940 --> 02:47:38,120 Nevo: I can definitely understand why people don't like this market. 2845 02:47:38,520 --> 02:47:43,960 Nevo: I just said that crypto is the next thing of the stock exchange. 2846 02:47:44,160 --> 02:47:47,140 Nevo: Maybe not today, but I think this will be in the future. 2847 02:47:48,400 --> 02:47:49,660 Nevo: I think there is an opportunity. 2848 02:47:49,700 --> 02:47:53,540 Nesters: I felt that way at some point, but I just gave up with all those scams. 2849 02:47:54,560 --> 02:48:00,900 Nevo: Today, Bitcoin again, 99k, probably going to crush his previous record very soon. 2850 02:48:02,340 --> 02:48:06,780 Nesters: We also might have had an extra question from Dennis, because I know he requested. 2851 02:48:07,140 --> 02:48:09,100 Nesters: Was there an extra? 2852 02:48:09,320 --> 02:48:12,220 Nesters: Because then we can probably end it. 2853 02:48:13,560 --> 02:48:20,320 Denis: It wasn't a question, it was more of a compliment for you that you seem to have such a light-hearted attitude. 2854 02:48:20,940 --> 02:48:23,520 Denis: I think this is very important in all this. 2855 02:48:24,380 --> 02:48:27,480 Denis: Just not take any of this too seriously. 2856 02:48:28,340 --> 02:48:31,460 Nevo: It's just like what is good for you. 2857 02:48:31,640 --> 02:48:33,840 Nevo: You need to figure out for yourself. 2858 02:48:34,080 --> 02:48:39,420 Nevo: I think some people think crypto is the worst thing possible in the world. 2859 02:48:39,540 --> 02:48:39,940 Nevo: And I agree. 2860 02:48:41,400 --> 02:48:45,860 Nevo: I'm sure many people are buying babies with crypto money, because it's so shady and stuff like that. 2861 02:48:46,080 --> 02:48:48,420 Nevo: I'm sure this type of thing works. 2862 02:48:48,560 --> 02:48:52,060 Nevo: Listen, I've been in this market for the last five months. 2863 02:48:52,200 --> 02:48:53,580 Nevo: I never did crypto before. 2864 02:48:54,240 --> 02:48:56,880 Nevo: It's a disgusting market in terms of the audience. 2865 02:48:57,300 --> 02:48:58,400 Nevo: But there is an opportunity there. 2866 02:48:58,900 --> 02:48:59,620 Nevo: What can I say? 2867 02:49:01,260 --> 02:49:04,420 Nevo: So, up to you what you want to do. 2868 02:49:04,640 --> 02:49:07,480 Nevo: I usually like money, so I do the money stuff. 2869 02:49:09,000 --> 02:49:26,920 Denis: I meant not just in crypto, but open source in general, because it can be nerve-wracking to maintain a large product like that, but you seem to handle it with ease and mental shield, in a way. 2870 02:49:27,160 --> 02:49:33,960 Nevo: This is actually a very interesting stuff that I discovered that I like in open source, that you don't have it in other markets. 2871 02:49:34,620 --> 02:49:39,320 Nevo: So in open source you are expected to be very humble and coming from the bottom. 2872 02:49:40,680 --> 02:49:42,040 Nevo: Can you help me out? 2873 02:49:42,100 --> 02:49:42,940 Nevo: Can we build this together? 2874 02:49:44,060 --> 02:49:45,560 Nevo: Please show me the code and so on. 2875 02:49:45,680 --> 02:49:48,960 Nevo: Actually, when I did it in crypto, people told me, no, you need to show stand. 2876 02:49:49,020 --> 02:49:50,180 Nevo: You need to say, we are the strongest. 2877 02:49:50,880 --> 02:49:52,860 Nevo: Yeah, the crypto is the opposite, basically. 2878 02:49:53,660 --> 02:49:54,300 Nevo: Very different. 2879 02:49:54,580 --> 02:50:04,620 Nevo: In general, in many markets, I think like B2B markets, when you see ads and stuff like that, you don't see in an ad somebody saying, I'm not sure how to do something, let's do it together. 2880 02:50:04,760 --> 02:50:05,540 Nevo: You will not see this, right? 2881 02:50:06,340 --> 02:50:10,200 Nevo: You will see things more like I know how you can make six figures per month. 2882 02:50:10,760 --> 02:50:12,140 Nevo: So, follow me. 2883 02:50:12,320 --> 02:50:16,620 Nesters: Yeah, in open source, you are expected to be more like, I guess, the Ethereum guy, the Vitalik. 2884 02:50:16,820 --> 02:50:22,100 Nesters: And even in crypto, you are supposed to be more like Andrew Tate or something. 2885 02:50:22,740 --> 02:50:24,420 Nesters: Oh my God. 2886 02:50:25,840 --> 02:50:27,260 Nevo: No, I don't want to be Andrew Tate. 2887 02:50:27,500 --> 02:50:27,560 Nevo: Sorry. 2888 02:50:28,040 --> 02:50:32,100 Nevo: For all his fans, I don't want to be Andrew Tate. 2889 02:50:32,740 --> 02:50:38,420 Nevo: So, just do it, because crypto can be really easy. 2890 02:50:38,540 --> 02:50:40,180 Nevo: The problem with crypto is that it's not regulated. 2891 02:50:40,900 --> 02:50:42,700 Nevo: So, let's say you have your coin very high. 2892 02:50:42,700 --> 02:50:44,660 Nevo: You can just rag-pull everybody. 2893 02:50:44,960 --> 02:50:47,100 Nevo: You can take all their money, and they can't do anything about it. 2894 02:50:47,160 --> 02:50:47,880 Nevo: This is not regulated. 2895 02:50:48,040 --> 02:50:50,380 Nevo: There's like no rules there, what's going inside. 2896 02:50:50,460 --> 02:50:58,040 Nevo: But if you do it right, you take profits, you grow your coin, you don't rag-pull anybody, and so on, why not? 2897 02:50:58,460 --> 02:51:02,560 Nevo: You can have an alternative way of growing your product. 2898 02:51:02,760 --> 02:51:06,120 Nevo: Actually, I think for open source, it might even in the future work better. 2899 02:51:06,400 --> 02:51:13,860 Nevo: If you are not tied up to sell things for your customers, you know, and then you drop the open source, the opposite. 2900 02:51:14,480 --> 02:51:17,700 Nevo: The more you strengthen the open source, your coin becomes stronger. 2901 02:51:17,940 --> 02:51:20,400 Nevo: It might even be a good solution for open source. 2902 02:51:21,060 --> 02:51:21,520 Nevo: I don't know. 2903 02:51:23,060 --> 02:51:25,780 Nevo: Look at this project AGI XT. 2904 02:51:26,420 --> 02:51:28,300 Nevo: Really well, how they did it, I think. 2905 02:51:28,720 --> 02:51:31,640 Nevo: With their coin and open source and stuff like that. 2906 02:51:32,160 --> 02:51:36,300 Nesters: It accidentally reconnected somehow from a space. 2907 02:51:36,440 --> 02:51:38,100 Nesters: I don't know why it disconnected, but I had to. 2908 02:51:38,100 --> 02:51:43,340 Nesters: And then I had to change the audio device again because it connects to my webcam for some reason. 2909 02:51:44,860 --> 02:51:49,460 Nesters: Okay, so I guess we can wrap it up on the crypto angle, I guess. 2910 02:51:50,900 --> 02:51:53,440 Nesters: Otherwise, it's going to be really hard to beat the record again. 2911 02:51:53,840 --> 02:51:55,920 Nesters: Next space is very specific. 2912 02:51:56,060 --> 02:51:57,340 Nesters: We kind of already know the guest. 2913 02:51:57,780 --> 02:52:02,320 Nesters: I don't think we can yap for three hours on that one, but hopefully... 2914 02:52:02,320 --> 02:52:04,020 Nesters: Also about crypto? 2915 02:52:05,140 --> 02:52:05,660 Daniel: No, no. 2916 02:52:05,660 --> 02:52:07,380 Daniel: I think we can. 2917 02:52:08,020 --> 02:52:08,780 Daniel: You'll see. 2918 02:52:10,500 --> 02:52:13,380 Nesters: Possibly, yeah, but I don't know if he's going to be up for it. 2919 02:52:14,020 --> 02:52:14,820 Nesters: What is this about? 2920 02:52:15,280 --> 02:52:15,800 Nesters: Secret. 2921 02:52:17,500 --> 02:52:19,660 Nesters: Maybe you'll see soon. 2922 02:52:19,980 --> 02:52:21,300 Nesters: But I don't know. 2923 02:52:21,440 --> 02:52:24,500 Nesters: Not many actually know what's happening in this space either. 2924 02:52:26,200 --> 02:52:28,920 Nesters: Anyway, we can probably wrap it up here. 2925 02:52:30,100 --> 02:52:36,460 Nesters: Actually, thank you for sharing all the good stuff and a little bit gray stuff. 2926 02:52:36,600 --> 02:52:39,860 Nesters: It gives more context to people, obviously, what others are doing. 2927 02:52:40,380 --> 02:52:43,840 Nesters: And actually, the whole marketing playbook was really good. 2928 02:52:44,400 --> 02:52:50,640 Nesters: It's actually a smart strategy that many people use in different industries, and you show how you can use it in open source. 2929 02:52:52,080 --> 02:52:55,060 Nesters: So people can take a lot away from it. 2930 02:52:56,220 --> 02:53:10,680 Nesters: And a great discussion as well, because I'm not very into open source at all, or even the tech as much nowadays, so it was actually a little bit harder for me to navigate this space actually, but I think it turned out to be the best. 2931 02:53:10,720 --> 02:53:13,140 Nevo: The problem with people in open source is actually a different problem. 2932 02:53:13,220 --> 02:53:13,780 Nevo: It's a maintainer. 2933 02:53:14,540 --> 02:53:15,960 Nevo: I mean, everybody's going to see your code. 2934 02:53:16,120 --> 02:53:17,880 Nevo: If it's not good, people are... 2935 02:53:17,880 --> 02:53:22,960 Nevo: What if everybody tells me that my code is not good, that I don't write quality code? 2936 02:53:24,600 --> 02:53:37,020 Nesters: Yeah, you just say, I just used Coursera, and then you get probably people angry because, you know, open source people would be like, some people would be like, no, no, you need to be purist, you need to type every single letter. 2937 02:53:37,500 --> 02:53:39,180 Nevo: Nobody's looking at your code, believe me. 2938 02:53:39,320 --> 02:53:41,820 Nevo: I mean, some contributors, most people don't look, they just run it. 2939 02:53:42,320 --> 02:53:43,220 Nevo: They just run the Docker. 2940 02:53:44,080 --> 02:53:46,660 Nevo: Nobody even cares about your code as much as long as it works. 2941 02:53:49,040 --> 02:53:50,400 Nevo: So, it's all good. 2942 02:53:51,060 --> 02:53:56,600 Nevo: You can go in open source without a lot of experience and create something. 2943 02:53:57,440 --> 02:54:07,740 Nesters: Yeah, hopefully some people will now be going to the self-hosting channel and the wipe coding channel and be like, how do I wipe code my next GitHub hit? 2944 02:54:08,880 --> 02:54:12,860 Nevo: And also, a recommendation for open source, before we wrap up. 2945 02:54:13,720 --> 02:54:19,940 Nevo: You know, there is a very, there is multiple technique to build open source, to write something, right? 2946 02:54:19,980 --> 02:54:25,100 Nevo: Like, you can have a backend, separate backend repository, separate frontend repository, and so on. 2947 02:54:25,600 --> 02:54:31,460 Nevo: The common way in open source to do is usually to work with a monorepo, because you don't want to separate your frontend and backend. 2948 02:54:31,600 --> 02:54:35,140 Nevo: You want to send all your stars, all the people into the same repository. 2949 02:54:35,520 --> 02:54:40,580 Nevo: So, even if sometimes the monorepo doesn't make a lot of sense for people, it's better to do it anyway, like that. 2950 02:54:40,980 --> 02:54:46,040 Nesters: Yeah, because they can directly just run through the readme, they just run it and it's up. 2951 02:54:46,340 --> 02:54:51,640 Nevo: Not only that, you think about, like, you have different call to actions in different places to your open source project. 2952 02:54:51,860 --> 02:54:53,160 Nevo: Where are you going to send them to? 2953 02:54:53,160 --> 02:54:54,300 Nevo: To the frontend, to the backend? 2954 02:54:54,820 --> 02:54:56,360 Nevo: It's better when you have a monorepo. 2955 02:54:57,780 --> 02:54:59,300 Nevo: Yeah, I mean, it makes sense that way. 2956 02:54:59,500 --> 02:54:59,720 Nevo: So, yeah. 2957 02:55:00,780 --> 02:55:11,440 Nevo: They use Next.js, they don't even need a monorepo, but my project is not only Next.js, so monorepo was a good solution. 2958 02:55:12,960 --> 02:55:14,960 Denis: Just in terms of maintenance... 2959 02:55:15,780 --> 02:55:16,520 Denis: Sorry, yeah. 2960 02:55:16,680 --> 02:55:25,940 Denis: Just in terms of maintenance, it's also very hard to... I once worked with a project where 17 different repos for 17 microservices. 2961 02:55:26,360 --> 02:55:27,260 Denis: It's crazy. 2962 02:55:28,380 --> 02:55:32,620 Nesters: By the way, the wipe coding gets a little bit worse, right? 2963 02:55:32,680 --> 02:55:33,440 Nesters: With the monorepo. 2964 02:55:35,400 --> 02:55:36,120 Nevo: Not really. 2965 02:55:36,300 --> 02:55:43,700 Nevo: I mean, just a plain wipe coding, yeah, but if you put good rules and stuff, it's okay. 2966 02:55:43,900 --> 02:55:53,900 Nevo: I tell them, like, this is the backend, it's built with Next.js, this is the worker, it's built with Next.js, like, you know, model everything, this is the passes that you should use. 2967 02:55:54,560 --> 02:55:55,320 Nevo: I don't know. 2968 02:55:56,000 --> 02:56:00,160 Nevo: Pretty much, like, I don't vibe on the backend in general, but... 2969 02:56:00,700 --> 02:56:04,240 Nevo: Yeah, you mentioned that, so you're technically excluded, right, from the... 2970 02:56:04,240 --> 02:56:10,700 Nevo: Like I always said, like, do only the frontend, don't touch the backend, so it's part of my main rule, basically. 2971 02:56:10,780 --> 02:56:11,540 Nevo: Don't touch the backend. 2972 02:56:14,220 --> 02:56:14,620 Nesters: Okay. 2973 02:56:15,120 --> 02:56:18,500 Nesters: Yeah, I think I'll wrap it up on the cursor topic. 2974 02:56:21,220 --> 02:56:24,100 Nesters: Okay, thank you, actually, for joining, Nemo. 2975 02:56:24,360 --> 02:56:25,720 Nesters: I mean, didn't even know what to expect. 2976 02:56:25,800 --> 02:56:34,240 Nesters: I had some questions, but when we went, like, completely off the rails with some of it, like, the marketing playbook, I didn't even expect it to come out like that. 2977 02:56:34,380 --> 02:56:37,900 Nesters: It was great, and then the gray stuff, that was just... 2978 02:56:38,400 --> 02:56:39,620 Nesters: Like, the gift kept giving. 2979 02:56:40,040 --> 02:56:44,360 Nevo: Wait for my next SASS, it's the biggest grayest thing that I'm going to release on. 2980 02:56:44,740 --> 02:56:45,180 Nevo: It's coming? 2981 02:56:45,180 --> 02:56:45,320 Nevo: Is it coming? 2982 02:56:47,300 --> 02:56:52,720 Nevo: My designer is now, like, the SASS is ready, but it's still... 2983 02:56:53,220 --> 02:56:54,600 Nevo: The design is now, right? 2984 02:56:54,740 --> 02:56:54,980 Nevo: Okay. 2985 02:56:55,200 --> 02:57:00,920 Nevo: No, I have a studio that I'm working with for the main website, for the main marketing website, usually, like, they didn't post this. 2986 02:57:01,500 --> 02:57:04,500 Nevo: So just waiting for that, but the SASS itself is ready. 2987 02:57:04,920 --> 02:57:08,200 Nevo: I have some friends that are testing it, so, yeah. 2988 02:57:09,140 --> 02:57:12,960 Nesters: Can't wait to see, like, how quickly you go to 100k stars this time. 2989 02:57:12,960 --> 02:57:14,240 Nesters: No, this is not open source. 2990 02:57:15,200 --> 02:57:15,500 Nesters: Oh. 2991 02:57:17,040 --> 02:57:18,840 Nevo: You're actually going to try closed source now. 2992 02:57:19,280 --> 02:57:20,360 Nevo: This is closed source. 2993 02:57:20,500 --> 02:57:21,840 Nevo: It's closed source for a different reason. 2994 02:57:24,300 --> 02:57:24,740 Nevo: So... 2995 02:57:24,740 --> 02:57:27,000 Nevo: Basically, I'm building the... 2996 02:57:28,200 --> 02:57:30,380 Nevo: Do you know the concept of the dead internet? 2997 02:57:32,500 --> 02:57:32,940 Nevo: Okay. 2998 02:57:33,040 --> 02:57:33,600 Nevo: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 2999 02:57:33,660 --> 02:57:34,620 Nevo: Okay, I get it. 3000 02:57:34,720 --> 02:57:35,860 Nevo: You like bots, okay. 3001 02:57:35,940 --> 02:57:36,620 Nevo: I like bots. 3002 02:57:37,280 --> 02:57:39,100 Nevo: So, this is part of this... 3003 02:57:40,160 --> 02:57:51,140 Nevo: So, there's a lot of automations there in different platforms, so I don't want to expose the code of the automation, because then the platform will just, you know, close their... 3004 02:57:51,140 --> 02:57:52,480 Nevo: like, change their stuff all the time. 3005 02:57:53,780 --> 02:57:55,760 Nevo: So, maybe better not to open up. 3006 02:57:57,380 --> 02:57:58,000 Nevo: But, yeah. 3007 02:57:58,900 --> 02:58:00,180 Nevo: It's going to come out soon. 3008 02:58:00,260 --> 02:58:01,160 Nevo: Let's see how it works. 3009 02:58:03,620 --> 02:58:04,060 Nesters: Yeah. 3010 02:58:04,260 --> 02:58:04,660 Nesters: All right. 3011 02:58:05,020 --> 02:58:05,980 Nesters: I guess wrap it up. 3012 02:58:06,040 --> 02:58:08,840 Nesters: Thank you for joining the weekly yap. 3013 02:58:08,840 --> 02:58:17,960 Nesters: I mean, anyone else listening can go to the weeklyyap.com and get some extra talks from the previous weeks. 3014 02:58:18,600 --> 02:58:19,960 Nesters: Pretty nice conversations. 3015 02:58:21,300 --> 02:58:22,580 Nesters: Thank you for having me. 3016 02:58:23,380 --> 02:58:28,300 Nesters: Yeah, and we can continue discussion in the SmallBits community, the chat. 3017 02:58:29,200 --> 02:58:33,020 Nesters: One reason to join, by the way, for the nice conversations as well. 3018 02:58:33,200 --> 02:58:34,640 Nesters: Not just what we talked about now. 3019 02:58:35,080 --> 02:58:35,360 Nesters: Anyway. 3020 02:58:35,680 --> 02:58:37,100 Nesters: Oh, yeah, it's almost three hours. 3021 02:58:37,100 --> 02:58:38,980 Nesters: It's like two minutes off. 3022 02:58:39,040 --> 02:58:40,400 Nesters: But we don't need to hit that yet. 3023 02:58:41,480 --> 02:58:41,680 Nesters: All right. 3024 02:58:43,920 --> 02:58:44,460 Nevo: Thank you, everyone. 3025 02:58:44,960 --> 02:58:47,020 Nevo: Thank you, everybody, for staying that long. 3026 02:58:48,060 --> 02:58:48,740 Nevo: Impressive, yeah. 3027 02:58:50,080 --> 02:58:50,580 Daniel: Thank you. 3028 02:58:50,620 --> 02:58:53,340 Nevo: Thank you so much. 3029 02:58:53,920 --> 02:58:54,460 Nevo: All right. 3030 02:58:54,500 --> 02:58:57,000 Nevo: Have a nice morning, night. 3031 02:58:58,200 --> 02:58:58,900 Nevo: Anywhere you are. 3032 02:58:59,100 --> 02:58:59,500 Nevo: Evening. 3033 02:59:01,020 --> 02:59:01,620 Nevo: All right. 3034 02:59:02,780 --> 02:59:03,480 Nesters: See you around.