1
00:00:52,210 --> 00:00:53,050
Nesters: All right, guys.

2
00:00:53,930 --> 00:00:55,510
Daniel: I guess we can slowly start.

3
00:00:56,270 --> 00:00:56,610
Daniel: Hello, hello.

4
00:00:56,890 --> 00:00:57,890
Daniel: Yeah, Nestor, can you hear me?

5
00:00:58,510 --> 00:00:59,070
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

6
00:00:59,330 --> 00:00:59,710
Daniel: All good.

7
00:01:00,090 --> 00:01:01,630
Daniel: It's my sound, my audio.

8
00:01:01,710 --> 00:01:02,710
Daniel: Yeah, it sounds better, right?

9
00:01:02,730 --> 00:01:05,190
Daniel: Because I think I figured out how to change the microphone.

10
00:01:06,070 --> 00:01:08,330
Nesters: Yeah, you can change it at the bottom next to the mic.

11
00:01:08,330 --> 00:01:14,290
Daniel: I wasn't sure if it changes also, because there's only one setting for mic and speakers.

12
00:01:14,770 --> 00:01:16,830
Daniel: But yeah, the sound is coming from the right place.

13
00:01:17,250 --> 00:01:18,350
Daniel: So yeah, looks like it.

14
00:01:18,570 --> 00:01:19,070
Daniel: Good, good.

15
00:01:20,030 --> 00:01:20,710
Daniel: How are you?

16
00:01:21,810 --> 00:01:22,670
Nesters: Oh, I'm good.

17
00:01:22,910 --> 00:01:23,330
Nesters: I'm good.

18
00:01:23,570 --> 00:01:24,330
Nesters: I'm ready to...

19
00:01:24,330 --> 00:01:29,570
Nesters: I actually wasn't sure you're gonna show up, because I actually didn't see you anywhere today.

20
00:01:29,650 --> 00:01:30,530
Nesters: Not in a small bed.

21
00:01:30,650 --> 00:01:31,230
Daniel: Yeah, no, no.

22
00:01:31,270 --> 00:01:35,130
Daniel: I had another call before, but I made sure to finish in time.

23
00:01:35,570 --> 00:01:38,390
Daniel: So now I have two hours, so I have time this time.

24
00:01:40,310 --> 00:01:44,830
Nesters: So yeah, I mean, this time the topic is the lifetime consultations, I guess.

25
00:01:44,990 --> 00:01:47,990
Nesters: I mean, I don't know, but I still include the unlimited.

26
00:01:48,530 --> 00:01:50,690
Nesters: But I know that some people feel a little bit less...

27
00:01:52,330 --> 00:01:53,910
Nesters: It feels a bit...

28
00:01:54,270 --> 00:01:56,870
Nesters: Some people feel dodgy to call it the unlimited offer.

29
00:01:57,050 --> 00:02:05,250
Nesters: But the lifetime offer is that you're technically offering unlimited support whenever someone needs help with something.

30
00:02:05,470 --> 00:02:07,550
Nesters: They can actually book a call with you.

31
00:02:07,670 --> 00:02:12,290
Nesters: So technically, it sounds like people could use it as much as they want.

32
00:02:12,650 --> 00:02:17,490
Nesters: But in reality, it seems that people don't actually use it as much as they could.

33
00:02:17,490 --> 00:02:23,350
Nesters: They perhaps actually take it much slower.

34
00:02:23,630 --> 00:02:26,370
Nesters: Only when, I guess, they feel like they actually need to solve something.

35
00:02:26,630 --> 00:02:32,650
Nesters: So I guess you can give a short intro to what the actual lifetime consultations is.

36
00:02:33,170 --> 00:02:33,990
Nesters: I mean, from your perspective.

37
00:02:33,990 --> 00:02:34,230
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

38
00:02:34,470 --> 00:02:39,230
Daniel: So about August of last year, I decided to offer...

39
00:02:39,230 --> 00:02:41,630
Daniel: And I'll explain more about how this idea started.

40
00:02:41,850 --> 00:02:44,790
Daniel: But just to introduce the concept.

41
00:02:44,790 --> 00:03:00,310
Daniel: I started to offer people who needed some help from me, who maybe recognized that I have something that I could help them with, being sort of in their corner, access to my calendar.

42
00:03:00,450 --> 00:03:01,690
Daniel: Basically, that's what I was selling.

43
00:03:02,030 --> 00:03:11,190
Daniel: And for a one-time fee of $2,500, they would receive access to my calendar and they could book calls with me whenever they wanted.

44
00:03:11,190 --> 00:03:23,050
Daniel: And I had a list of things where I thought I could be helpful, say, with marketing, audience building, community building, info products, maybe some software development and things like that.

45
00:03:23,070 --> 00:03:24,790
Daniel: Things that I have firsthand experience with.

46
00:03:25,090 --> 00:03:29,510
Daniel: And this was basically the offer that I put initially to members of the small box community.

47
00:03:29,710 --> 00:03:30,870
Daniel: And that's actually really what I did.

48
00:03:30,970 --> 00:03:32,010
Daniel: I promoted this.

49
00:03:32,630 --> 00:03:35,290
Daniel: Although I did talk about it on Twitter and so on.

50
00:03:35,310 --> 00:03:40,630
Daniel: But I never really actively and aggressively marketed it outside.

51
00:03:40,630 --> 00:03:49,890
Daniel: Yet, so most of the people who sort of got shown this offer were people who probably were already familiar with me and with what I do, with what I know, and so on and so forth.

52
00:03:50,150 --> 00:03:55,910
Daniel: But the interesting thing, probably like a lot of questions, is about the unlimited part.

53
00:03:56,050 --> 00:03:57,490
Daniel: This is not a yearly fee.

54
00:03:57,750 --> 00:03:58,630
Daniel: This doesn't expire.

55
00:03:58,850 --> 00:04:00,430
Daniel: There's not like a limited number of sessions.

56
00:04:00,830 --> 00:04:09,830
Daniel: This is literally me saying, hey, if you pay this one-time fee, whenever you want, indefinitely for the future, you can jump on a call with me and I will help you.

57
00:04:09,830 --> 00:04:12,690
Daniel: And I think this is what made it a very compelling offer to people.

58
00:04:12,810 --> 00:04:14,590
Daniel: I'll give a bit of rough numbers.

59
00:04:14,770 --> 00:04:20,070
Daniel: I have 145 people who have booked this.

60
00:04:20,250 --> 00:04:21,490
Daniel: It was actually a bit more.

61
00:04:21,570 --> 00:04:23,110
Daniel: It was actually 150 something.

62
00:04:24,090 --> 00:04:28,670
Daniel: But I think I had 14 people who cancelled and requested a refund.

63
00:04:28,850 --> 00:04:35,030
Daniel: Because part of the offer also, I told people, hey, if we also start and you don't like it, you can request a refund.

64
00:04:35,130 --> 00:04:40,490
Daniel: And we can talk more about sort of refunds and reasons why and how they happen and so on and so forth.

65
00:04:40,610 --> 00:04:44,350
Daniel: But right now I have 145 people who are active.

66
00:04:45,330 --> 00:04:50,170
Daniel: They mostly joined in two batches, one in August of last year, one towards the end of last year.

67
00:04:51,570 --> 00:04:53,290
Daniel: And yeah, they're keeping me busy.

68
00:04:53,530 --> 00:04:58,770
Daniel: But I have about, I actually just finished on a call with one of the people who signed up for this.

69
00:04:59,150 --> 00:05:01,410
Daniel: I do about three calls per day.

70
00:05:02,150 --> 00:05:08,930
Daniel: I try to organize them two in the morning and one in the afternoon to cover all time zones as much as possible.

71
00:05:09,050 --> 00:05:12,210
Daniel: It's also a big setup for me, which I think it's a nice arrangement.

72
00:05:12,770 --> 00:05:16,750
Daniel: And I try to open slots like four times a week, right?

73
00:05:16,810 --> 00:05:20,850
Daniel: So that's sort of, I still control my availability.

74
00:05:21,070 --> 00:05:21,970
Daniel: I still control my calendar.

75
00:05:23,390 --> 00:05:26,630
Daniel: And by the way, I also sometimes just block time, right?

76
00:05:26,630 --> 00:05:30,810
Daniel: So if I'm taking a vacation with my family, I might block a whole week.

77
00:05:30,810 --> 00:05:37,910
Daniel: And there was never an intent to make these for urgent needs.

78
00:05:38,030 --> 00:05:42,350
Daniel: Even though if someone emails me and say, hey, something is happening, can we talk tomorrow?

79
00:05:42,510 --> 00:05:43,450
Daniel: I try to make it happen.

80
00:05:43,910 --> 00:05:48,130
Daniel: But that was never the intent, at least with the way I arranged it.

81
00:05:48,750 --> 00:05:55,330
Daniel: So yeah, I think usually the questions that come up when I mentioned this model is like, but how can this work?

82
00:05:55,450 --> 00:05:59,770
Daniel: What if people start calling you every day or like five times a day or whatever?

83
00:06:00,590 --> 00:06:04,190
Daniel: And the reality is that that doesn't happen, right?

84
00:06:04,370 --> 00:06:08,830
Daniel: And there are multiple reasons why that doesn't happen.

85
00:06:08,930 --> 00:06:20,550
Daniel: First of all, something that I didn't think, I didn't put much thought into in the beginning, but in hindsight, it turned out to be very, very important, is that these are all very synchronous, right?

86
00:06:20,550 --> 00:06:23,270
Daniel: I don't take any asynchronous work.

87
00:06:23,470 --> 00:06:30,830
Daniel: Like nobody sends me a URL to their website and asks me via email, hey, can you give me feedback for that?

88
00:06:30,890 --> 00:06:36,890
Daniel: Because when you think about it, that kind of activity, it takes that person, you know, 15 seconds to send that email.

89
00:06:37,050 --> 00:06:40,930
Daniel: And for me, it might take me like an hour to review things together.

90
00:06:41,170 --> 00:06:44,010
Daniel: And not because I don't like to do that, right?

91
00:06:44,050 --> 00:06:47,150
Daniel: But it sort of can very easily become unsustainable.

92
00:06:47,250 --> 00:07:00,830
Daniel: So what I ask people to do is, you know, I'm very happy, I would be very happy to review like marketing copy or landing pages or anything, but let's do it together on a Zoom call, right?

93
00:07:00,830 --> 00:07:10,510
Daniel: So we're there together, we're both spending our time, we're both pair defining things or brainstorming or whatever we're doing, but we're doing it at the same time.

94
00:07:10,530 --> 00:07:15,970
Daniel: And this sort of makes it such that when someone is working time with me, they're also spending their own time.

95
00:07:16,830 --> 00:07:21,010
Daniel: I'd like to use the example of universal healthcare, right?

96
00:07:21,090 --> 00:07:25,150
Daniel: I mean, I live in the United States, we don't have universal healthcare here.

97
00:07:25,150 --> 00:07:27,670
Daniel: So it's a bit of an alien concept for us.

98
00:07:27,890 --> 00:07:34,050
Daniel: But with many other places in the world, you know, you could go to the doctor for free or go to hospital, right?

99
00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:35,350
Daniel: And you don't pay anything.

100
00:07:35,490 --> 00:07:41,790
Daniel: In theory, you could go every day or two times a day, but chances are nobody really does that, right?

101
00:07:41,850 --> 00:07:47,510
Daniel: I mean, you only go to hospital if you really have something that you think, you know, you can get some help with.

102
00:07:47,970 --> 00:07:48,290
Daniel: Why?

103
00:07:48,450 --> 00:07:55,630
Daniel: Because it's annoying to just go to the hospital, wait in line, spend your time for no reason, right?

104
00:07:55,630 --> 00:07:56,750
Daniel: So it's very obvious.

105
00:07:57,090 --> 00:07:58,410
Daniel: And the same thing happens here.

106
00:07:58,690 --> 00:08:08,550
Daniel: So it turned out, and I'll explain a little bit what gave me confidence at the beginning, you know, to rely on this assumption.

107
00:08:08,750 --> 00:08:18,450
Daniel: But right now, at least my average number of calls per person is still below three, and I think it's something like 2.8 or something like that.

108
00:08:18,530 --> 00:08:29,410
Daniel: I expect it, of course, to grow over time, but still expected to probably settle into the 3.5 somewhere calls per person on average.

109
00:08:29,590 --> 00:08:30,430
Daniel: This doesn't mean...

110
00:08:30,430 --> 00:08:40,130
Nesters: And most people have been your subscribers to the service, as I guess you could say, for approximately nine months, right?

111
00:08:40,330 --> 00:08:45,570
Daniel: Yeah, the bulk has been now for nine-ish months.

112
00:08:45,790 --> 00:08:48,110
Daniel: So I'm starting to get a representative sample.

113
00:08:48,370 --> 00:08:50,730
Daniel: There's obviously a very common pattern, right?

114
00:08:50,730 --> 00:08:53,430
Daniel: When people sign up, usually they're very enthusiastic.

115
00:08:53,430 --> 00:08:54,310
Daniel: They want to talk.

116
00:08:54,370 --> 00:08:56,550
Daniel: Usually they have one immediate call.

117
00:08:56,770 --> 00:09:03,090
Daniel: With some people, there's like an immediate follow-up call, but then they tend to slow down significantly.

118
00:09:03,650 --> 00:09:16,390
Daniel: And this might sound like people are not getting the most utility out of this service, but in reality, I think it's almost like the opposite.

119
00:09:16,650 --> 00:09:19,930
Daniel: Again, it's almost like the metaphor of the doctor, right?

120
00:09:20,570 --> 00:09:22,610
Daniel: We do something together, right?

121
00:09:22,730 --> 00:09:28,050
Daniel: And basically the fact that they're not calling again, they're not booking something, is because they don't need me yet.

122
00:09:28,550 --> 00:09:45,910
Daniel: But they still have the option such that when something happens, if they get stuck, if some new opportunity shows up that they think I can be helpful with, they always have the option to book something with me.

123
00:09:46,330 --> 00:09:48,250
Daniel: There's also a very wide distribution.

124
00:09:48,250 --> 00:09:52,730
Daniel: So when I talk about the average is like 2.8 calls per person.

125
00:09:53,290 --> 00:09:54,670
Daniel: That's the average, right?

126
00:09:54,710 --> 00:09:57,250
Daniel: On an individual level, there's a very, very long...

127
00:09:57,250 --> 00:10:03,250
Daniel: there's a tale of people with whom I have probably booked dozens of calls.

128
00:10:04,010 --> 00:10:10,150
Daniel: So I don't remember exactly what the maximum is, but I'm sure like probably 15 or more calls in this period.

129
00:10:11,090 --> 00:10:12,770
Daniel: And we speak much more regularly.

130
00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:14,870
Daniel: Some people need a bit more hand-holding.

131
00:10:14,870 --> 00:10:22,610
Daniel: Some people are maybe going to a project that's where I can be helpful by keeping all the context fresh and we're doing things together.

132
00:10:24,030 --> 00:10:37,270
Daniel: But with sort of like with the bulk, with the vast majority of people, it's more like, okay, we've established this relationship, they secured a spot in the system, they have availability.

133
00:10:37,990 --> 00:10:42,390
Daniel: We talked once or twice about what they're doing.

134
00:10:42,390 --> 00:10:45,510
Daniel: Maybe I already sort of managed to help them, give them some direction.

135
00:10:47,490 --> 00:10:50,630
Daniel: And now they're free to come back in the future.

136
00:10:52,950 --> 00:10:54,330
Daniel: I'll pause it here for a minute.

137
00:10:54,730 --> 00:10:59,630
Daniel: Nestor, I don't know if you think I should get into the details.

138
00:10:59,630 --> 00:11:10,630
Nesters: I mean, you answered multiple questions I would, I guess, already would ask anyway, since you're already prepared to actually talk about the subject.

139
00:11:10,630 --> 00:11:14,330
Nesters: So you know exactly the storyline to add, I guess.

140
00:11:14,950 --> 00:11:18,570
Nesters: Because you brought up about also universal healthcare.

141
00:11:19,090 --> 00:11:27,150
Nesters: And what was the actual main motivating factor or like inspiration aside maybe from that universal healthcare?

142
00:11:27,330 --> 00:11:31,990
Nesters: What was it that felt like this is the offer that actually makes sense?

143
00:11:32,330 --> 00:11:32,770
Daniel: Yeah, no.

144
00:11:33,050 --> 00:11:37,330
Daniel: So yeah, it started by, it was an accident, actually, like many things.

145
00:11:37,330 --> 00:11:47,630
Daniel: So a few months before, I think in January of 2024, I was hosting a cohort course with Louis Bakaj about info product creation.

146
00:11:47,790 --> 00:11:59,570
Daniel: I think this idea of the cohort course was to help people, you know, convert some knowledge in their head into an info product and put it on the market within 28 days.

147
00:11:59,970 --> 00:12:01,630
Daniel: And we had this sort of structured course.

148
00:12:01,730 --> 00:12:05,750
Daniel: We're talking with the participants like every week.

149
00:12:05,750 --> 00:12:08,450
Daniel: There was a curriculum, like typical course format.

150
00:12:09,930 --> 00:12:19,850
Daniel: But what happened in this course, you know, unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, because it led to something else, is that I just realized that not everyone was managing.

151
00:12:20,210 --> 00:12:24,770
Daniel: And actually, very few people were managing to actually put a product on the market within those 28 days.

152
00:12:25,110 --> 00:12:28,630
Daniel: I still think the content of the course was very valuable and useful.

153
00:12:28,770 --> 00:12:30,990
Daniel: And that's what sort of what a lot of the feedback said.

154
00:12:31,630 --> 00:12:37,330
Daniel: But for various reasons, people felt, you know, life got in the way.

155
00:12:37,450 --> 00:12:38,150
Daniel: They got busy.

156
00:12:38,690 --> 00:12:40,550
Daniel: They got distracted.

157
00:12:41,310 --> 00:12:46,210
Daniel: And, you know, they didn't manage to complete the ultimate outcome of the course.

158
00:12:46,270 --> 00:13:01,070
Daniel: And I sort of felt bad about that because I didn't want people to feel, you know, disappointed with having paid for the course and not having got the assistance that they needed just because they happened to be busy at work or they got sick or they had a vacation in the middle and so on.

159
00:13:01,170 --> 00:13:17,830
Daniel: So on a whim, towards the end of the course, I told people, hey, here's my calendly, whenever you resume, right, whenever you think like the time is right, feel free to book a call with me and I'll help you, you know, along the way, like getting to the finish line.

160
00:13:18,530 --> 00:13:24,990
Daniel: And this time, actually, we had run this cohort course like three times and there was like 25 people each.

161
00:13:25,070 --> 00:13:26,890
Daniel: So there was about 75 people total.

162
00:13:27,430 --> 00:13:30,550
Daniel: And I offered the calendar to all these 75 people.

163
00:13:31,010 --> 00:13:43,750
Daniel: And the behavior of the participants of this call started to show me what to start to expect when you make yourself available in an unlimited capacity without any constraints.

164
00:13:44,150 --> 00:13:47,270
Daniel: I started to notice this type of almost everyone booked a call.

165
00:13:47,430 --> 00:13:53,370
Daniel: I think out of the 75 people, probably like 70 or like 68 booked at least one call.

166
00:13:54,170 --> 00:14:00,510
Daniel: But then, you know, the average stuck very close to the one, 1.5, you know, less than two.

167
00:14:00,950 --> 00:14:06,370
Daniel: A few other people booked a second call and they wanted to talk more about maybe the next steps and so on and so forth.

168
00:14:06,970 --> 00:14:09,030
Daniel: And very few people, for example, booked three calls.

169
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:13,230
Daniel: There were a handful, right, that, you know, probably I talked with them maybe three, four, five times.

170
00:14:13,690 --> 00:14:20,550
Daniel: But I started to realize, like, what are the kinds of averages I should expect when something like this was offered.

171
00:14:20,550 --> 00:14:28,650
Daniel: So this probably was what gave me the confidence, right, that the unit economics for something like this could work.

172
00:14:29,030 --> 00:14:32,790
Daniel: Because this is quite a bit of actuarial math.

173
00:14:32,850 --> 00:14:41,230
Daniel: This is very similar, actually, maybe an even better comparison instead of universal healthcare might be, you know, insurance, right?

174
00:14:41,290 --> 00:14:45,750
Daniel: I mean, how insurance companies work, they rely very much on, like, the average.

175
00:14:46,170 --> 00:14:51,070
Daniel: Like, if it's home insurance, it's like, how often do houses burn down?

176
00:14:51,270 --> 00:15:01,370
Daniel: Like, if it's life insurance, it's like, for insurance, like, a 40-year-old, it's like, how likely it is for a 40-year-old, like, to die next year, within the next 10 years, and so on and so forth.

177
00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:04,390
Daniel: Of course, the distribution of the individuals is very different.

178
00:15:04,630 --> 00:15:10,150
Daniel: Now, there's certainly going to be some people who buy life insurance today and die in the next month.

179
00:15:10,470 --> 00:15:14,050
Daniel: And that's very unfortunate for, of course, for both parties.

180
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:23,010
Daniel: But the life insurance is making the assumption, right, a 40-year-old typically lives an additional 40 years or whatever.

181
00:15:23,370 --> 00:15:25,110
Daniel: And they price their products the same way.

182
00:15:25,510 --> 00:15:29,510
Daniel: And I think this is the fundamental thing, right, in this kind of product.

183
00:15:29,610 --> 00:15:39,970
Daniel: It's like, how much hours of support does the average person need, right, with this kind of menu of things, of services that I'm offering?

184
00:15:41,470 --> 00:15:44,510
Daniel: And it's sort of, I agree, it's very hard to guess.

185
00:15:44,510 --> 00:15:53,790
Daniel: And I think this sort of experiment helped me do it in a prudent way, because it was tied to another product, right, and I offered it.

186
00:15:54,050 --> 00:15:55,730
Daniel: I had no obligation to offer it.

187
00:15:56,030 --> 00:16:01,270
Daniel: But it sort of helped me start to realize, like, this is typically what behavior that I should expect.

188
00:16:01,490 --> 00:16:06,830
Daniel: Now, I'm sure it could be different depending on, like, what kind of services you're offering.

189
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:15,730
Daniel: So, for example, if you are helping people, I don't know, do something with a particular... with a clear end date.

190
00:16:15,910 --> 00:16:31,990
Daniel: For example, I was talking to someone recently who was telling me about how a teacher could help a student pass an exam, where the exam is going to happen at the end of the year, or the scholastic year, or something like that.

191
00:16:32,090 --> 00:16:34,570
Daniel: Something with a very clear end date.

192
00:16:35,590 --> 00:16:39,210
Daniel: And to be honest, I don't know how the dynamic would change there.

193
00:16:39,390 --> 00:16:40,510
Daniel: Like, would you get more calls?

194
00:16:40,510 --> 00:16:43,350
Daniel: Because there's something very urgent, it's going to happen soon.

195
00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:50,830
Daniel: Or maybe even less, because it's something that ends, and after it ends, there's obviously no more reason to...

196
00:16:50,830 --> 00:16:55,390
Daniel: Once you get to the finish line, there's no more reason to keep talking.

197
00:16:57,330 --> 00:17:02,590
Daniel: So, yeah, that's sort of what started it for me, this experiment.

198
00:17:02,690 --> 00:17:08,210
Daniel: I think if someone is interested to try something like this, I would encourage you to think of a safe way to try it.

199
00:17:08,210 --> 00:17:27,610
Daniel: Maybe together with something else, or you offer it for free, for a few close friends, just to understand what to expect, so that you can start building confidence in human behavior.

200
00:17:27,950 --> 00:17:35,150
Daniel: Just like the life insurance company needs to be confident that the 40-year-old, average 40-year-old is going to live another 40 years.

201
00:17:35,150 --> 00:17:37,490
Daniel: If they had that long, they would be in trouble.

202
00:17:38,870 --> 00:17:45,010
Daniel: Same thing here, if you get the mat wrong, you also could end up underwater.

203
00:17:45,350 --> 00:17:50,050
Daniel: And the way I convinced myself is that I also thought, what's the worst case scenario?

204
00:17:50,170 --> 00:17:54,510
Daniel: Could it be that the average ends up being something like 10 calls per person?

205
00:17:55,070 --> 00:18:01,790
Daniel: I really found it hard to imagine that it would get to that level, like where literally the average would be that high.

206
00:18:01,790 --> 00:18:07,670
Daniel: But even if it turned out to be that high, it still would have been a reasonably good hourly rate.

207
00:18:08,610 --> 00:18:15,070
Daniel: 2,500 divided by 10 is like 250 per hour gross.

208
00:18:15,510 --> 00:18:18,490
Daniel: There's some fees involved as well, so maybe a bit less than that net.

209
00:18:18,930 --> 00:18:19,850
Daniel: It's still pretty decent.

210
00:18:20,090 --> 00:18:25,090
Daniel: I'm still happy with getting paid that much for my time.

211
00:18:26,150 --> 00:18:35,130
Daniel: So yeah, these combinations of things that are almost like thinking the worst case scenario and having some experience with the average helped a lot.

212
00:18:36,410 --> 00:18:58,190
Nesters: Yeah, I think initially, obviously, and remember when you announced the offer, for me, just from doing a lot of consulting and just working with clients and e-commerce, mostly one-on-one with someone, because of the agreements, obviously, whether there's some kind of end date for some deliverable,

213
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:59,410
Nesters: or is it hourly-based?

214
00:18:59,870 --> 00:19:05,750
Nesters: No matter what, I knew that there's always just more questions and more things coming up.

215
00:19:06,210 --> 00:19:11,370
Nesters: So to me, in that very moment, I felt like, wow, this sounds like a horrible idea.

216
00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:25,130
Nesters: It sounds like a horrible idea, because I know how much the more work is always being piled onto you, whatever you're doing, there's some problems here and there.

217
00:19:25,330 --> 00:19:29,670
Nesters: And I realized, and I felt like that would happen with this unlimited offer as well.

218
00:19:29,870 --> 00:19:41,790
Nesters: But what I didn't, what I did misread there was that people actually buy this kind of offer as for that optionality to have that access to the person.

219
00:19:41,990 --> 00:19:45,310
Nesters: They don't actually buy it for the immediate need necessarily.

220
00:19:45,310 --> 00:19:54,050
Nesters: And that does make that, I guess, the unit economics work very well, because I also have an unlimited offer, technically.

221
00:19:54,590 --> 00:19:57,730
Nesters: I don't advertise it anymore, but I have it.

222
00:19:59,530 --> 00:20:04,870
Nesters: You were also my first client, so it's a little bit of a Ponzi scheme, you know?

223
00:20:04,890 --> 00:20:05,110
Nesters: Yes.

224
00:20:05,350 --> 00:20:08,630
Nesters: Just wrapping up the lifetime offers.

225
00:20:09,230 --> 00:20:11,850
Nesters: But yeah, so I have it too.

226
00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:19,090
Nesters: But what's the difference for me was that I had the unlimited, but they also had the batches of 5 and 10 consultations.

227
00:20:19,670 --> 00:20:28,670
Nesters: So what I noticed was that I think I had like maybe 50-50 split initially between lifetime and 5 or 10 package.

228
00:20:28,930 --> 00:20:41,810
Nesters: But the people who would take the 5 or 10 call consultation packages, they would actually book on average twice or maybe three times more calls than the lifetime clients, which sounds bizarre.

229
00:20:41,950 --> 00:20:43,070
Nesters: How would that happen?

230
00:20:43,170 --> 00:20:45,930
Nesters: They spend more money and they're actually booking less calls.

231
00:20:46,130 --> 00:20:50,790
Nesters: Technically, for me, the hourly rate on the unlimited becomes significantly higher.

232
00:20:51,630 --> 00:21:04,490
Nesters: But what I realized was that the ones who buy lifetime buy for the optionality for that idea that the inspiration and the aspirational goals they have with whatever projects they have.

233
00:21:04,490 --> 00:21:14,770
Nesters: So they want that option to talk to someone who can help them and guide them and maybe have this kind of relationship where I'm actually aware of what's happening with their projects, maybe.

234
00:21:14,950 --> 00:21:19,570
Nesters: And then we can return to that at some further time when they develop it.

235
00:21:20,510 --> 00:21:28,970
Nesters: And those people, they need, I guess, a little bit more support, motivation, for motivation, et cetera, maybe assurances.

236
00:21:29,370 --> 00:21:36,270
Nesters: But those who booked 5 or 10 calls, they usually came already with a specific problem.

237
00:21:37,010 --> 00:21:41,370
Nesters: And they had this idea that, okay, I need to migrate domain name from this to that.

238
00:21:41,930 --> 00:21:43,630
Nesters: How do we safely migrate, et cetera.

239
00:21:44,050 --> 00:21:49,550
Nesters: All these calls were more concrete about specific thing, which was a smaller thing.

240
00:21:50,050 --> 00:22:00,510
Nesters: In fact, one of them was actually one of the, I guess, some kind of VC fund that was actually opening a fund for investors.

241
00:22:01,750 --> 00:22:04,590
Nesters: And they just, the guy just made a single call.

242
00:22:04,950 --> 00:22:09,490
Nesters: He was like, I'm not sure if you'll be able to help me or something, but the call ended up going very well.

243
00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:20,430
Nesters: And he was like, yeah, maybe the rest of the four calls, we can just like, sometimes I can ask something to you and you just respond over email and we just count it as a call or something.

244
00:22:20,570 --> 00:22:22,310
Nesters: He was like, this was enough.

245
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:26,150
Nesters: And honestly, he never messaged me again.

246
00:22:26,370 --> 00:22:27,530
Nesters: Hopefully, he took the feedback.

247
00:22:27,790 --> 00:22:32,210
Nesters: It helped him because he said it was all good, but I never heard of him again.

248
00:22:32,390 --> 00:22:35,810
Nesters: And he was like, yeah, he paid for that one call basically.

249
00:22:35,930 --> 00:22:38,590
Nesters: And he was like, yeah, that's fine with me.

250
00:22:38,930 --> 00:22:40,290
Nesters: And they was all immediate.

251
00:22:40,710 --> 00:22:47,450
Nesters: Those were all immediate needs they wanted to resolve or fix someone's brain and have that problem.

252
00:22:47,570 --> 00:22:51,050
Nesters: With Lifetime, it was, I would say, never the same.

253
00:22:51,230 --> 00:22:55,350
Nesters: There was the intro call and that was just mostly getting to know each other.

254
00:22:55,490 --> 00:23:03,210
Nesters: And then the other calls were maybe occasionally for like, discuss some direction about like, more like a macro direction of some project.

255
00:23:03,550 --> 00:23:04,890
Daniel: Yeah, this is very interesting.

256
00:23:05,010 --> 00:23:06,450
Daniel: And I think you made a good observation.

257
00:23:06,450 --> 00:23:19,750
Daniel: And I noticed this a lot with the people I have, is that usually, sometimes they feel like they already get the money's worth with just the first call or the first two calls.

258
00:23:19,950 --> 00:23:25,470
Daniel: And that's like, there was already like, because these are strategic things.

259
00:23:25,570 --> 00:23:30,310
Daniel: I mean, usually, even though we do the new tactical, sometimes technical things and so on.

260
00:23:30,370 --> 00:23:32,890
Daniel: But sometimes it's just a directional thing.

261
00:23:32,950 --> 00:23:34,370
Daniel: Like, what should I be doing next?

262
00:23:34,510 --> 00:23:36,150
Daniel: Like, what should I be prioritizing?

263
00:23:36,230 --> 00:23:37,650
Daniel: And so we have this kind of discussion.

264
00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:42,630
Daniel: And you help set people on the right direction, hopefully.

265
00:23:43,290 --> 00:23:50,550
Daniel: And I think if they're satisfied with the direction they're taking, that could be very consequential.

266
00:23:50,830 --> 00:23:59,570
Daniel: So yes, they maintain the option to come back to you, maybe if they need a course collection, or they need some very tactical feedback on something.

267
00:24:00,690 --> 00:24:05,490
Daniel: And I think that's a good feeling for them, to feel like they're not using something up.

268
00:24:05,670 --> 00:24:09,570
Daniel: This is, I think, one of the most compelling things about the lifetime arrangement.

269
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:18,950
Daniel: Whenever you're selling packages, there's always the feeling on the other side that they're consuming a credit, or they're using something up.

270
00:24:19,030 --> 00:24:24,290
Daniel: So they need to be well prepared, and make sure that they use it well, and so on and so forth.

271
00:24:26,090 --> 00:24:31,410
Daniel: But the lifetime thing, you always have the option.

272
00:24:31,670 --> 00:24:33,950
Daniel: So it's something that keeps its value.

273
00:24:35,930 --> 00:24:36,670
Daniel: But yeah, it's interesting.

274
00:24:37,870 --> 00:24:41,950
Nesters: Yeah, with the credits as well, like the packages.

275
00:24:42,250 --> 00:24:48,170
Nesters: Honestly, I also didn't even expect that people really will use up all the calls in those packages.

276
00:24:48,830 --> 00:24:55,450
Nesters: I felt like if they have that problem, they might usually book two, three calls, and perhaps we resolve the problem.

277
00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:58,010
Nesters: I actually felt that way about that as well.

278
00:24:58,390 --> 00:24:59,950
Nesters: So I'm not even counting, honestly.

279
00:25:00,130 --> 00:25:01,470
Nesters: They just book a call.

280
00:25:01,610 --> 00:25:03,270
Nesters: I'm like, okay, I'll just have a call.

281
00:25:03,330 --> 00:25:04,270
Nesters: I haven't actually counted.

282
00:25:04,730 --> 00:25:07,930
Nesters: I think only one person is close to reaching.

283
00:25:07,930 --> 00:25:08,870
Nesters: It's very interesting.

284
00:25:09,770 --> 00:25:11,210
Daniel: I was talking to someone...

285
00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:12,590
Nesters: I'm not even counting, yeah.

286
00:25:12,750 --> 00:25:13,910
Daniel: Yeah, it's very, very interesting.

287
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:22,010
Daniel: I was actually talking to someone yesterday who has been doing this for many years, over a decade in the corporate world, leadership consulting.

288
00:25:22,550 --> 00:25:27,330
Daniel: And he sells his services to packages of 10 calls.

289
00:25:27,470 --> 00:25:36,690
Daniel: And he was telling me the same thing, that even in that arrangement, few people, almost nobody actually uses the whole package.

290
00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:46,830
Daniel: And it actually, again, adjusts your hourly rate to the average rather than to the bundle size.

291
00:25:47,170 --> 00:25:53,930
Daniel: So there's also, again, some math there, how you charge and how you think about it.

292
00:25:54,070 --> 00:26:01,250
Daniel: It's more based on user behavior, consumer behavior here, rather than by what the bundle size is.

293
00:26:02,890 --> 00:26:05,970
Daniel: I see Hassan has a raised hand, should we bring him in?

294
00:26:06,210 --> 00:26:09,250
Hassan: Yeah, I think he might have a question because he's been holding it up.

295
00:26:09,650 --> 00:26:11,190
Hassan: Hey guys, fascinating discussion.

296
00:26:11,310 --> 00:26:13,490
Hassan: And thanks for sharing all those insights.

297
00:26:14,110 --> 00:26:18,250
Hassan: I think you've inspired a lot of folks to think about this, including myself.

298
00:26:19,050 --> 00:26:27,790
Hassan: The unlimited lifetime calls still scares me, to be honest with you, even though it's reassuring to hear that not a lot of people use it.

299
00:26:28,030 --> 00:26:38,750
Hassan: So I'm leaning more towards an outcome-based unlimited package, something like unlimited calls until you get your first book published, for example.

300
00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:57,170
Hassan: So maybe just an open question to you both about some of the lessons learned on those 1% customers that could abuse this or take advantage of booking multiple calls at once.

301
00:26:57,370 --> 00:26:59,750
Hassan: Have you thought through any...

302
00:26:59,750 --> 00:27:03,630
Hassan: I know you mentioned, Daniel, for example, the no email rule.

303
00:27:03,770 --> 00:27:19,150
Hassan: I think that's fantastic because then you kind of force folks to just book a call and then go through whatever they want to go through on that call, as opposed to sending you a bunch of collateral documentation that you have to kind of do homework on before you jump on the call.

304
00:27:19,250 --> 00:27:29,830
Hassan: But any other sort of best practices on the footnotes, maybe, of the offer, like, within reason, for example, or anything like that?

305
00:27:29,890 --> 00:27:31,550
Hassan: We'd love to hear your thoughts on that.

306
00:27:32,270 --> 00:27:34,610
Daniel: Yeah, no, good question.

307
00:27:34,730 --> 00:27:45,010
Daniel: I think one thing that probably I should have done, probably I should add, is that this should only, I mean, only individuals, it should only apply to individuals.

308
00:27:45,010 --> 00:28:01,890
Daniel: I mean, nobody abused this, but I had a couple of people who bought this for their business, and they were adding me to their team meetings, basically, which actually was interesting because I think it was effective, right?

309
00:28:01,910 --> 00:28:03,610
Daniel: And I actually quite enjoyed it, right?

310
00:28:03,630 --> 00:28:09,710
Daniel: So they were having a discussion, for example, about marketing or about some technical migration or something like that.

311
00:28:09,710 --> 00:28:15,370
Daniel: And they would add me as if I was basically like an employee of the company.

312
00:28:15,790 --> 00:28:20,550
Daniel: And I was listening, and maybe they check with me, do you have any feedback and comments and so on and so forth.

313
00:28:20,630 --> 00:28:42,210
Daniel: It was useful, but I think it can invalidate a lot of the assumptions, this kind of arrangement, because if suddenly I become a resource for the whole organization, then, you know, again, these assumptions that an individual only has so much to ask for start to become a bit more difficult to manage.

314
00:28:43,210 --> 00:28:46,370
Daniel: I think it might still be something interesting to pursue, right?

315
00:28:46,370 --> 00:28:48,430
Daniel: But it might require a different pricing structure.

316
00:28:49,230 --> 00:29:03,450
Daniel: So I think if I were to define, at some point, I need to define my landing page for this consultation, probably I would add that footnote that this ties to an individual, right?

317
00:29:03,510 --> 00:29:04,830
Daniel: It only serves one person.

318
00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:06,930
Daniel: What else?

319
00:29:08,970 --> 00:29:10,650
Daniel: The outcome idea is interesting.

320
00:29:10,970 --> 00:29:24,750
Daniel: Actually, I think if you have the opportunity to tie it to an outcome, that might... I haven't thought it through, and certainly I can speak from present experience, but it certainly sounds like something I would emphasize.

321
00:29:27,370 --> 00:29:45,370
Daniel: One other thing probably I would do, and this is actually a bit hard to, with the tooling that exists, a bit hard to enforce, because probably I would have done it already, like to make to... this is a bit of time management thing, especially when you have a lot of,

322
00:29:45,370 --> 00:29:51,110
Daniel: you know, people like I do, to not let people book multiple calls at once.

323
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:56,790
Daniel: Like, I would prefer people to, like, book a call, and after they finish, like, they book the next one.

324
00:29:57,630 --> 00:29:59,330
Daniel: And this usually doesn't cause problems.

325
00:29:59,410 --> 00:30:01,410
Daniel: Again, like, nobody really is abusing it.

326
00:30:01,570 --> 00:30:02,670
Daniel: And sometimes they do it.

327
00:30:02,770 --> 00:30:04,310
Daniel: This is a genuine problem, right?

328
00:30:04,350 --> 00:30:20,750
Daniel: Since I have people from all over the world, different time zones, and I'm in the US West Coast, and there are, you know, especially people, for example, in Asia, they find it harder to find... there's only a small sliver of overlap, which works.

329
00:30:21,150 --> 00:30:22,610
Daniel: They try to book it quickly, right?

330
00:30:22,610 --> 00:30:30,750
Daniel: So they make sure that when there's an opportunity, like even if it's a month from now, they might book it just in case they need to speak to me.

331
00:30:31,330 --> 00:30:33,170
Daniel: So I completely understand the problem.

332
00:30:35,190 --> 00:30:41,830
Daniel: But it sort of sometimes creates a situation where then they cancel, because actually they didn't need it, right?

333
00:30:41,890 --> 00:30:44,570
Daniel: And sort of creates a bit of, you know, of a churn.

334
00:30:45,650 --> 00:30:56,870
Daniel: Like, I wish there was an easy way, for example, to say, like, my 4pm slot is only available only to people who are in Asia, and my 10am slot is only available to people in Europe.

335
00:30:57,350 --> 00:31:01,310
Daniel: And my afternoon one is like people in the Americas.

336
00:31:01,610 --> 00:31:03,970
Daniel: Yeah, it sounds like there's space for a product.

337
00:31:04,190 --> 00:31:05,050
Daniel: There's probably space for a product.

338
00:31:05,250 --> 00:31:14,630
Daniel: Yeah, like if Calendly had this feature, like, you know, don't show this option to... because, for example, most, probably more than half of the people are US-based.

339
00:31:15,270 --> 00:31:21,710
Daniel: And the first slot that shows up is the morning one for me, which tends to be the best one for you, for example.

340
00:31:21,850 --> 00:31:24,850
Daniel: So they tend to pick it up just because, yeah, it's the first one, whatever.

341
00:31:25,370 --> 00:31:29,430
Daniel: I wish I could hide it to people from certain geographies.

342
00:31:29,670 --> 00:31:32,110
Daniel: So to be honest with you, I don't actually know how to actually solve this.

343
00:31:32,470 --> 00:31:33,890
Daniel: And probably it won't be a problem.

344
00:31:35,490 --> 00:31:41,690
Daniel: Because basically, like, now I'm facing this problem where, for example, you know, all of the rest of next week is already fully booked, right?

345
00:31:41,750 --> 00:31:55,010
Daniel: And maybe the slots I have open the week after, there might not be great times for people in Europe or people in India and so on and so forth.

346
00:31:55,210 --> 00:32:03,030
Daniel: And that makes me sometimes, to be honest with you, that makes me break the rule often of three calls a day.

347
00:32:03,130 --> 00:32:08,670
Daniel: That makes me adjust, you know what, I don't want to keep people waiting, you know, three weeks, four weeks.

348
00:32:09,090 --> 00:32:15,770
Daniel: So I might add another, open up a few more slots or open up an extra day and so on.

349
00:32:16,430 --> 00:32:24,810
Hassan: Yeah, one just to kind of address that comment, Daniel, I actually solved that with something completely different.

350
00:32:25,030 --> 00:32:33,370
Hassan: And previously when I used to take consulting for different teams and different time zones, one workaround for that is through an intake summary, right?

351
00:32:33,370 --> 00:32:43,850
Hassan: Like when someone kind of signs up to this, and they give you an answer about what time zone they're in, you can then send them a separate Calendly link that is blocked.

352
00:32:44,470 --> 00:32:45,850
Hassan: There's a good idea, actually.

353
00:32:46,050 --> 00:32:47,830
Daniel: Yeah, it's a good idea.

354
00:32:48,090 --> 00:32:52,670
Nesters: It's only a problem if it's like an indie space that you might have like digital nomads traveling.

355
00:32:53,030 --> 00:32:53,350
Daniel: Yeah, true.

356
00:32:53,510 --> 00:32:59,210
Daniel: But if I could also have another calendar for like all of it and like the exceptions.

357
00:32:59,890 --> 00:33:09,430
Daniel: But yeah, like if I knew that someone is in a, I think it could also be an honor system, to be honest, like I think there could be like three Calendly links.

358
00:33:09,850 --> 00:33:11,530
Daniel: Like if you're in the US, use this one.

359
00:33:12,330 --> 00:33:20,310
Daniel: And again, like it's not even that, like it just, yeah, I think if it would just help a little bit, it would already be a big advantage.

360
00:33:20,410 --> 00:33:21,430
Daniel: That's a good idea.

361
00:33:21,630 --> 00:33:22,270
Daniel: No, thanks, Hasan.

362
00:33:22,410 --> 00:33:23,510
Daniel: I'll think about it.

363
00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:30,390
Nesters: Yeah, in terms of like the issues that arise, as Daniel already mentioned about no emails.

364
00:33:30,870 --> 00:33:40,750
Nesters: Yeah, during the first call, you might have people who tend to like be like, okay, yeah, can you review it over like before the before the call?

365
00:33:40,810 --> 00:33:42,750
Nesters: Can you review this document or something?

366
00:33:42,770 --> 00:33:44,770
Nesters: And they're like, so much to review.

367
00:33:44,790 --> 00:33:47,090
Nesters: And then they start asking for feedback in the messages.

368
00:33:47,810 --> 00:33:51,450
Nesters: And you need to kind of kindly tell them that no, let's let's talk.

369
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:53,810
Nesters: Let's talk this through during the calls.

370
00:33:54,490 --> 00:33:56,470
Nesters: And not not through messages, etc.

371
00:33:56,490 --> 00:34:00,010
Nesters: Because I had like two people who were like, constantly messaging.

372
00:34:00,010 --> 00:34:06,490
Nesters: One of them chose to get a refund later, because they were like, I don't think this is the direction I'm gonna take it.

373
00:34:06,670 --> 00:34:09,070
Nesters: So I won't need like consultations right now.

374
00:34:09,250 --> 00:34:17,790
Nesters: That was one of the lifetime offers actually that turned but but yeah, that was also where the person was actually trying to ask a lot of questions in messages.

375
00:34:17,810 --> 00:34:22,710
Nesters: And I was like, let's just have a call and discuss it then because I can't focus.

376
00:34:23,110 --> 00:34:32,230
Nesters: Like I can't even pay too much attention when you're asking like all these questions and messages because the context switching to me is pretty expensive mental load.

377
00:34:32,410 --> 00:34:35,050
Nesters: So I don't want to like be constantly looking at messages.

378
00:34:35,290 --> 00:34:38,030
Nesters: So just try to avoid those.

379
00:34:38,730 --> 00:34:54,670
Nesters: Like, and I think when you have this, but you wanted to tie it to an outcome, like, I think those kind of problems are more likely to arise when you tie it to an outcome because they can't they they have this one small problem and they will want to try to message you because of that small problem,

380
00:34:54,910 --> 00:34:57,430
Nesters: not book a call, but they'll try to message you first.

381
00:34:57,570 --> 00:35:00,370
Nesters: So yeah, that's one issue, I think, when you tie it to an outcome.

382
00:35:00,630 --> 00:35:09,310
Hassan: Yeah, I think to your point earlier, Inesters, it's like when you sold the, you know, five or 10 package deals, you get more calls than the unlimited.

383
00:35:09,750 --> 00:35:17,290
Hassan: It just makes a lot of sense to me, actually, because the unlimited is like you're getting that future guarantee that you can call it anytime so you don't get to use it.

384
00:35:17,730 --> 00:35:27,950
Hassan: So I'm expecting if I launch an offer with an outcome base, like, you know, you get until you get your book published, I'm expecting that there's going to be a lot more than just a couple of calls, right?

385
00:35:28,010 --> 00:35:32,250
Hassan: It's going to be, you know, walk me through the launch process, walk me through how do I market this?

386
00:35:32,310 --> 00:35:33,230
Hassan: What keywords should I choose?

387
00:35:33,390 --> 00:35:35,370
Hassan: So yeah, I do expect that.

388
00:35:35,450 --> 00:35:36,870
Hassan: By the way, question for both of you.

389
00:35:36,950 --> 00:35:51,710
Hassan: I know this, you know, I know, Daniel, you kind of talk a lot about the downplaying some of the legal stuff sometimes, but in my mind, coming from a corporate world in the past is, you know, are you when you get people to purchase the unlimited lifetime deal?

390
00:35:51,830 --> 00:36:09,590
Hassan: I like the fact that you offer them 100% guarantee, but then do you have any sort of, you know, legal documents where they sign, you know, sign off on to kind of say, here's the fine print on this, God forbid, you know, you pass away or something that they don't owe that money back?

391
00:36:09,690 --> 00:36:11,050
Hassan: Like, is there anything there?

392
00:36:11,050 --> 00:36:13,410
Hassan: Because unlimited is just insane, right?

393
00:36:13,430 --> 00:36:19,030
Hassan: Like it's lifetime, and they can call you in 20 years and still, you know, expect service.

394
00:36:19,290 --> 00:36:21,310
Hassan: So any, any thoughts on that?

395
00:36:22,630 --> 00:36:26,770
Daniel: No, so I mean, the only fine print I have, I have a refund policy.

396
00:36:27,030 --> 00:36:30,670
Daniel: It started as one year, and now it's six months.

397
00:36:30,730 --> 00:36:44,810
Daniel: And to be honest with you, I only reduced it to six months just because Gumroad now sort of has, you know, the payment processor that I use has sort of a managed refund policy system, and they support up to six months.

398
00:36:44,810 --> 00:36:53,090
Daniel: I think some of the payment processes, for example, refunding to PayPal beyond six months, it's not allowed, and there's like some practical concerns.

399
00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:56,010
Daniel: But no, I didn't.

400
00:36:57,090 --> 00:36:59,950
Daniel: And, yeah, it's sort of one of those calculated risks, I think.

401
00:37:00,210 --> 00:37:04,250
Daniel: I don't know, like, certainly, I don't want people to take legal advice from me.

402
00:37:04,290 --> 00:37:23,610
Daniel: But it's sort of with the way how I think about many of these things is like, I mean, what's the likelihood that, yeah, if I get hit by a bus, that someone comes after my kids to force them to give them consultations for the rest of their lives?

403
00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:26,310
Daniel: I think pretty low.

404
00:37:28,690 --> 00:37:37,670
Daniel: A question I get often, and I'm curious, again, like what I think, I think I'm okay, like, it's like, can I let go of clients?

405
00:37:37,750 --> 00:37:43,870
Daniel: Let's say someone was abusing, or I just maybe find them annoying, or whatever.

406
00:37:44,350 --> 00:37:50,310
Daniel: Can I just refund them and just block access to them?

407
00:37:50,690 --> 00:37:57,170
Daniel: I think, again, not legal advice, certainly don't consult with someone who knows what they're talking about.

408
00:37:57,390 --> 00:37:58,330
Daniel: I think I can.

409
00:37:58,530 --> 00:37:59,450
Daniel: I haven't done it yet.

410
00:37:59,610 --> 00:38:01,250
Daniel: So it hasn't been a problem.

411
00:38:01,870 --> 00:38:05,610
Daniel: But I think someone was abusing, and I tell them, hey, look, it's not working out.

412
00:38:05,810 --> 00:38:06,810
Daniel: Here's your money back.

413
00:38:07,010 --> 00:38:07,910
Daniel: Thank you for trying.

414
00:38:09,250 --> 00:38:17,570
Daniel: That's probably how I would mitigate the extreme case of someone maybe either taking advantage.

415
00:38:18,090 --> 00:38:19,130
Daniel: Go ahead, Lancelos.

416
00:38:19,450 --> 00:38:19,690
Daniel: Yeah.

417
00:38:19,690 --> 00:38:19,770
Nesters: Yeah.

418
00:38:19,790 --> 00:38:22,090
Nesters: I also don't have any contracts or anything.

419
00:38:22,270 --> 00:38:33,630
Nesters: But I actually wanted to mention that if there's anyone who feels like might be abusing your offer, you'll probably figure it out during the first couple of calls.

420
00:38:33,850 --> 00:38:36,570
Nesters: First of all, they're probably going to book very often.

421
00:38:37,270 --> 00:38:44,030
Nesters: And you might need to guide them, be like, okay, we're just going to talk these bigger macro things during these calls.

422
00:38:44,230 --> 00:38:46,590
Nesters: Let's not talk about every single small detail through.

423
00:38:46,730 --> 00:38:54,110
Nesters: And if they don't get the message, you might just say, I'm sorry, I actually can't help you.

424
00:38:54,250 --> 00:38:55,290
Nesters: And I'm just going to refund.

425
00:38:55,410 --> 00:39:00,510
Nesters: I think it's not a good fit for both of us, that you don't need this type of help.

426
00:39:00,570 --> 00:39:01,950
Nesters: I can provide with the service.

427
00:39:02,310 --> 00:39:20,090
Daniel: And I think it's completely fine that you refund with that reason, because there's clearly a mismatch between the expectations and... I think the biggest, and maybe this is something related to Hassan's questions about fine print and what to put in terms of the offer.

428
00:39:20,170 --> 00:39:39,850
Daniel: Because I think probably the biggest cause of refunds that I've had was a mismatch in expectations, where people expected me to be like an active accountability body, that I actually... I act almost like a head and fitness coach, where I would be prompting them,

429
00:39:39,910 --> 00:39:41,290
Daniel: hey, what have you done today?

430
00:39:41,690 --> 00:39:42,790
Daniel: Do you have any updates?

431
00:39:42,990 --> 00:39:43,510
Daniel: And so on and so forth.

432
00:39:43,590 --> 00:39:49,010
Daniel: But there might be an opportunity there for people to offer the kind of service.

433
00:39:49,110 --> 00:39:53,990
Daniel: I don't think it's something I'm neither good at doing and probably don't have the capacity to do.

434
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:58,270
Daniel: I'm very much... if I don't hear anything from you, I'm not doing anything.

435
00:40:00,410 --> 00:40:06,230
Daniel: Maybe I might send a reminder that, you know, there's still the calendar link and so on and so forth.

436
00:40:06,970 --> 00:40:10,430
Daniel: But I'm, you know, I'm passive and I'm reacting.

437
00:40:11,670 --> 00:40:14,250
Daniel: And this came up a few times.

438
00:40:14,370 --> 00:40:32,830
Daniel: I think sort of like when in the initial session, when we're discussing about how this will work with the structure, that there were a few people who expected me to be calling them or like sending them updates or like setting... or thinking on their behalf in offline,

439
00:40:33,370 --> 00:40:33,690
Daniel: right?

440
00:40:33,750 --> 00:40:36,030
Daniel: And sort of making sure that they're making progress.

441
00:40:36,350 --> 00:40:43,870
Daniel: And it's, again, maybe that's something for some people worth considering as a setup, right?

442
00:40:43,870 --> 00:40:45,290
Daniel: But not something I want to do.

443
00:40:45,350 --> 00:40:54,030
Daniel: So maybe I should have or I should still do clarify in my offer that this is not an accountability system, right?

444
00:40:54,050 --> 00:41:04,430
Daniel: I won't call you if you don't book a call with me, that kind of thing, to make it clear, maybe to filter out some of the people who might expect that.

445
00:41:04,550 --> 00:41:07,510
Daniel: I don't know if you had some of that as well, Nestor or Hassan.

446
00:41:07,630 --> 00:41:08,030
Daniel: Yeah, go ahead.

447
00:41:09,390 --> 00:41:10,190
Nesters: Yeah, yeah, Hassan.

448
00:41:10,250 --> 00:41:15,130
Hassan: No, I just wanted to kind of add to that comment on the misconception there, Daniel.

449
00:41:15,410 --> 00:41:17,730
Hassan: I'll let Nestor, also you kind of give your input.

450
00:41:17,950 --> 00:41:25,210
Hassan: But my expectation on why that happens is that there's a lot of the coaching sort of consultations.

451
00:41:25,410 --> 00:41:31,930
Hassan: It's a lot about accountability and following up and making sure that you're doing your homework and so on and so forth.

452
00:41:32,010 --> 00:41:33,310
Hassan: So there might be a little bit of that.

453
00:41:33,390 --> 00:41:39,910
Hassan: And that's a great point, actually, for me as a lesson to kind of, you know, if I do launch this, to have that to be clear cut.

454
00:41:39,970 --> 00:41:43,990
Hassan: It's not like, you know, I'm going to babysit you throughout this thing.

455
00:41:44,110 --> 00:41:48,310
Hassan: It's like, we'll have the calls, but it's on you to, you know, schedule those follow ups.

456
00:41:48,690 --> 00:41:50,430
Hassan: So yeah, go ahead, Nestor, if you wanted to.

457
00:41:51,130 --> 00:42:01,370
Nesters: Yeah, I think for your offer as well that you can set up is some kind of system and that you can on the first call, you can walk them through that system for launching a book.

458
00:42:01,930 --> 00:42:03,890
Nesters: And then they can do it on their own.

459
00:42:04,030 --> 00:42:16,590
Nesters: And then basically book a call just when they get stuck in one of those steps or don't understand how to proceed during those steps that they feel like they feel the urge to actually book a call with you.

460
00:42:16,690 --> 00:42:20,170
Nesters: That way, I guess there's less of that accountability idea.

461
00:42:20,270 --> 00:42:23,270
Nesters: And it's more like, okay, you already have a plan set up for them.

462
00:42:23,490 --> 00:42:23,570
Nesters: Yeah.

463
00:42:23,570 --> 00:42:25,910
Nesters: And they just need to, like, sort of follow it.

464
00:42:26,170 --> 00:42:26,730
Hassan: Yeah, great point.

465
00:42:26,790 --> 00:42:36,610
Hassan: That's actually the idea I had, which is, you know, even some pre-recorded sessions that they can walk through on their own and then follow ups at different touch points whenever they need them.

466
00:42:37,650 --> 00:42:41,630
Nesters: Yeah, that sounds like that would alleviate some of those issues.

467
00:42:41,850 --> 00:42:45,930
Nesters: And that would also be a clear understanding of, like, how you're going to proceed with this.

468
00:42:47,370 --> 00:42:47,790
Hassan: Yeah, great.

469
00:42:47,970 --> 00:42:48,090
Hassan: Yeah.

470
00:42:48,150 --> 00:42:48,350
Hassan: Thank you.

471
00:42:49,350 --> 00:42:49,750
Nesters: Yeah.

472
00:42:49,850 --> 00:42:55,350
Nesters: And I guess about those, like, there's very long tail also refunds that come in.

473
00:42:55,570 --> 00:43:09,250
Nesters: Like, one one thing that did come up was that someone did set a reminder on their calendar and asked for a refund for a lifetime, like four days before the technically the refund policy was going to expire.

474
00:43:09,450 --> 00:43:12,830
Nesters: I mean, I would have honored it anyway, but that person asked, like, four days.

475
00:43:12,970 --> 00:43:16,010
Nesters: And the question was like, oh, like, is the refund still available?

476
00:43:16,050 --> 00:43:18,470
Nesters: Because they actually felt uncomfortable asking for a refund?

477
00:43:18,670 --> 00:43:22,230
Nesters: Or could we set something up, like, so we can actually build something?

478
00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:27,370
Nesters: Because the initial call we had was that, like, he's going to start building a specific solution.

479
00:43:27,370 --> 00:43:30,530
Nesters: We discussed how we could do it and etc.

480
00:43:30,730 --> 00:43:33,250
Nesters: But apparently, obviously, a lot of people don't have time.

481
00:43:33,350 --> 00:43:46,070
Nesters: And I think that's one of the reasons why so little calls get booked in that lifetime category as well, is that obviously life gets in the way and you don't, like, actually manage to launch the product.

482
00:43:46,390 --> 00:43:50,310
Nesters: And then maybe you feel uncomfortable, bring it up again and, you know, actually book another call.

483
00:43:50,490 --> 00:43:54,010
Nesters: And I was like, yeah, no, it's probably better not to discuss it anymore.

484
00:43:54,570 --> 00:44:00,170
Nesters: If you feel like you don't want to pressure yourself, I'm just going to refund the money and just refund it.

485
00:44:00,530 --> 00:44:20,430
Nesters: But that's something you need to remember that, like, that was one thing I felt uncomfortable with this lifetime type of offer was the fact that, like, around the deadline, for example, of the refund policy, there might be, for example, an increase of refunds that you're technically holding some borrowed money in a way,

486
00:44:20,530 --> 00:44:20,690
Nesters: right?

487
00:44:20,690 --> 00:44:25,110
Nesters: Like, that's just, in the back of my mind, just an uncomfortable feeling in a way.

488
00:44:25,750 --> 00:44:34,830
Nesters: Because, yeah, when I do, like, a job, for example, for a specific task, I kind of get the money up front or right after I finish it.

489
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:36,790
Nesters: And there's, like, a short time frame.

490
00:44:36,930 --> 00:44:49,190
Nesters: But if it's, like, 180 days, or if I would do, like, a one-year refund policy, like, the idea of just holding money for one year because of that, it's just... even if I just, like, I don't know, put it in treasuries or something, it still feels, like,

491
00:44:49,430 --> 00:44:50,190
Nesters: uncomfortable in a way.

492
00:44:50,570 --> 00:44:54,790
Hassan: Question to both of you, actually, on that, given that you're open about the refunds.

493
00:44:54,890 --> 00:44:58,910
Hassan: What's sort of the primary reason that you're getting refunds?

494
00:44:58,910 --> 00:45:00,610
Hassan: Is it more, like, buyer's remorse?

495
00:45:01,330 --> 00:45:03,210
Hassan: Or is it, you know, not a right fit?

496
00:45:03,290 --> 00:45:07,290
Hassan: Like, just curious about the general reasons behind that.

497
00:45:08,390 --> 00:45:09,810
Daniel: Yeah, should I start, Nastas?

498
00:45:10,950 --> 00:45:18,250
Nesters: I mean, I can say for me that, yeah, one of them was obviously the person just didn't have the time to invest on their side projects.

499
00:45:18,330 --> 00:45:20,710
Nesters: And it was a lot of, like, this aspirational ideas.

500
00:45:21,090 --> 00:45:29,610
Nesters: But already during the first call, we kind of had an understanding... I had a little bit of understanding that this person will probably not follow through.

501
00:45:29,770 --> 00:45:33,950
Nesters: It was a little... a lot of thinking in, like, these... about these dreams.

502
00:45:34,090 --> 00:45:41,750
Nesters: We all know, like, all these people who used to, like, buy websites for, like... and be like, oh, I have this idea, and I just need a website.

503
00:45:41,930 --> 00:45:50,450
Nesters: And they were, like... if someone worked in, like, an agency or something knows that there's a lot of people who are the dreamers who come and, like, I want this dream website or something project.

504
00:45:50,450 --> 00:45:56,630
Nesters: And the idea... they pay for the website, and then they basically disappear because they don't actually focus on the website, etc.

505
00:45:57,290 --> 00:46:03,310
Nesters: Like, it was one of those ones that I knew that, like, most likely not going to follow through, and that happened to be a refund.

506
00:46:03,570 --> 00:46:14,150
Nesters: So, yeah, that was, like, a person, I guess, in a way, buyer's remorse for them, because they did buy into it on the hype, but they didn't follow through.

507
00:46:14,530 --> 00:46:17,010
Nesters: And the other one was just, I guess, not a good fit.

508
00:46:17,250 --> 00:46:18,310
Nesters: That's basically all.

509
00:46:18,650 --> 00:46:26,590
Nesters: It was just... I guess they expected I would help with some other things in a different way, but I just couldn't help them with that.

510
00:46:26,770 --> 00:46:28,990
Nesters: So, those were the two main lifetime refunds.

511
00:46:29,010 --> 00:46:29,390
Nesters: That's it.

512
00:46:29,510 --> 00:46:34,550
Nesters: For the five to ten batches, I have actually had not a single refund request.

513
00:46:34,850 --> 00:46:36,050
Nesters: They're usually book calls.

514
00:46:36,210 --> 00:46:37,210
Nesters: Most of them book calls.

515
00:46:37,350 --> 00:46:42,370
Nesters: Some of them, including one person in the audience, has not booked a single call.

516
00:46:43,750 --> 00:46:46,370
Nesters: That person knows who that person knows.

517
00:46:46,670 --> 00:46:48,830
Nesters: And by the way, thank you for joining, Mr. Yap.

518
00:46:49,030 --> 00:46:51,030
Nesters: I really liked that you joined the Weekly Yaps.

519
00:46:51,410 --> 00:46:51,510
Nesters: Amazing.

520
00:46:53,710 --> 00:47:07,410
Daniel: Yeah, it's interesting, because I think when you offer a generous refund policy, I think you also attract people who jump on it on a whim without thinking it through.

521
00:47:07,810 --> 00:47:14,290
Daniel: And they have enough confidence that they would get a refund if it doesn't work out, if they get buyer's remorse, and so on and so forth.

522
00:47:14,770 --> 00:47:24,650
Daniel: So, I posted 14 refunds total since I started this, which ends up being roughly almost... actually, about 10%, which seems very high.

523
00:47:25,410 --> 00:47:33,870
Daniel: But I think when you think about it, I had four people, for example, who requested a refund before even joining a single call.

524
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:40,150
Daniel: And I don't remember if they gave any reasons.

525
00:47:40,250 --> 00:47:47,110
Daniel: There was certainly someone who said they got sick, and they had some serious health problem, and they didn't have the mindset to do this.

526
00:47:47,490 --> 00:47:56,130
Daniel: It's completely understandable, I think, when you have dozens or hundreds of people, you get these kinds of things.

527
00:47:56,370 --> 00:48:00,090
Daniel: So certainly, probably not a lot of signal in those four.

528
00:48:00,650 --> 00:48:08,850
Daniel: The vast majority, I think probably almost all the other 10, maybe except one, they all asked for a refund after one call.

529
00:48:08,950 --> 00:48:12,210
Daniel: I think there was another one who we had two calls with.

530
00:48:13,270 --> 00:48:17,430
Daniel: And I think you could probably categorize all of this as not a good fit.

531
00:48:17,510 --> 00:48:27,330
Daniel: So I think they treated it very much like an introductory call, where, okay, let's chat with me, let's see what we can do.

532
00:48:27,510 --> 00:48:38,290
Daniel: And probably there was like, maybe no chemistry, or like we thought, you know, the other person was saying it wasn't me initiating the refund, they thought maybe I'm not going to be helpful.

533
00:48:38,990 --> 00:48:56,630
Daniel: You know, I have a very much no questions asked refund policy, so I never really pressure people to give me feedback, sometimes they offer, but there was never really something very, there's never any signal beyond, you know, it turned out to not look like a good fit.

534
00:48:56,930 --> 00:49:02,830
Daniel: There was just one person, right, with whom I had, they had requested a refund after about five calls.

535
00:49:03,430 --> 00:49:06,790
Daniel: And I was actually a bit surprised, because I thought I was making progress.

536
00:49:07,510 --> 00:49:17,970
Daniel: And part of the reason incidentally was also a health reason, they had some accident, and they were like, you know, just, you know, focusing on recovering right now.

537
00:49:18,070 --> 00:49:20,090
Daniel: But I have a feeling there was more to it.

538
00:49:20,170 --> 00:49:22,330
Daniel: And actually, they promised me they're going to give me some feedback.

539
00:49:22,910 --> 00:49:33,530
Daniel: So I think it was probably a bit of two things, you know, some life things happening, but probably they also felt like they weren't getting the progress they felt.

540
00:49:33,850 --> 00:49:35,170
Daniel: So this would be interesting, right.

541
00:49:35,230 --> 00:49:47,550
Daniel: So I don't know, again, like, this is probably to be expected, right, when you're doing these sort of largish numbers, you know, you're not going to be not going to be clicking with everyone.

542
00:49:48,390 --> 00:50:07,370
Daniel: But it's probably, yeah, like, probably the main thing, I think, if you're very generous, which I still recommend in general, right, I mean, with refunds, like, people jump on this almost like impulse buy, and then they think to it, either after they buy,

543
00:50:08,090 --> 00:50:14,510
Daniel: like the four people who booked, who requested a refund before the first call, or maybe after the first call.

544
00:50:15,570 --> 00:50:22,390
Daniel: I still think it's probably better than, say, doing a free introductory call.

545
00:50:22,950 --> 00:50:36,770
Daniel: To be honest with you, I don't know for certain, right, maybe I'm wrong, right, but sort of the reason I did it this way, I don't do, for example, free introductory calls or things like that, like if you want to talk with me, book it, and then if you don't like it,

546
00:50:36,890 --> 00:50:37,170
Daniel: refund.

547
00:50:38,650 --> 00:50:47,270
Daniel: I think it's probably self-select a bit more, people who are a bit more serious, but I don't know, I mean, it might be an interesting experiment to try maybe at some point.

548
00:50:48,030 --> 00:50:48,730
Hassan: Yeah, that's a good point.

549
00:50:48,810 --> 00:51:05,310
Hassan: I mean, the only concern I would have, I mean, so between the getting paid up front and then having the first call and then potentially get a refund versus having a quick 30-minute free call is the credit card and processing fee charges that you got to get up,

550
00:51:05,370 --> 00:51:09,990
Hassan: right, like when it's $2,500, what is that, like 10 to 13% of it that...

551
00:51:10,950 --> 00:51:13,330
Daniel: It's more, it's more, yeah, because I think...

552
00:51:14,350 --> 00:51:15,050
Daniel: Go ahead, go ahead.

553
00:51:15,050 --> 00:51:17,350
Nesters: I can solve this problem for you, Hasan.

554
00:51:17,710 --> 00:51:31,270
Nesters: If you don't do it on Gumroad, but you do it on Stripe, you can actually authorize the card before you have an introductory call and you only charge it after the call if they agree to proceed.

555
00:51:32,310 --> 00:51:35,970
Nesters: There will be no fee if you only authorize the card and don't capture the money.

556
00:51:36,190 --> 00:51:36,970
Nesters: There will be no fee.

557
00:51:37,790 --> 00:51:38,110
Hassan: You can...

558
00:51:38,110 --> 00:51:38,750
Hassan: Oh, interesting.

559
00:51:39,150 --> 00:51:40,410
Nesters: I didn't know that was an option.

560
00:51:40,730 --> 00:51:41,850
Nesters: Yeah, if you cancel the authorization, no money gets taken.

561
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:43,870
Daniel: No fee gets taken from your account.

562
00:51:44,690 --> 00:51:48,190
Daniel: Yeah, this is the risk, I think, right, of like the actual charge failing.

563
00:51:49,190 --> 00:51:56,850
Nesters: Yeah, the charge could fail, but at that point, yeah, there's like a small potential conversion loss risk.

564
00:51:57,130 --> 00:52:06,410
Nesters: Like with any context in this setup, if you offer an introductory call, you definitely have a higher risk of churning someone, I'm pretty sure.

565
00:52:06,570 --> 00:52:17,110
Nesters: Because if they put the money up front and they just pay and then they start booking calls, I'm pretty sure the churn there is significantly lower if you have like a setup call up front.

566
00:52:17,430 --> 00:52:26,750
Nesters: But I think with that authorization fee that you don't actually authorize the money and people might not notice that you just authorize, not charge them right away, they'll already feel like they have committed the money.

567
00:52:27,090 --> 00:52:29,350
Nesters: So they are less likely to churn that way, I think.

568
00:52:29,350 --> 00:52:30,750
Nesters: Yeah, interesting.

569
00:52:30,990 --> 00:52:32,430
Nesters: And that's an option in Stripe, right?

570
00:52:33,410 --> 00:52:36,090
Nesters: That's an option with like Stripe, Shopify, etc.

571
00:52:36,950 --> 00:52:39,730
Nesters: I know that Gumroad, I believe, doesn't offer authorization.

572
00:52:39,730 --> 00:52:40,030
Daniel: No, it doesn't.

573
00:52:40,250 --> 00:52:42,610
Daniel: It used to, but it doesn't anymore.

574
00:52:42,690 --> 00:52:44,410
Daniel: I don't think it's straightforward in Stripe, however.

575
00:52:44,550 --> 00:52:45,330
Daniel: I might be mistaken.

576
00:52:45,410 --> 00:52:48,350
Daniel: I don't think you can just use the Stripe payment link thing.

577
00:52:48,550 --> 00:52:50,010
Daniel: Or can you, Nestor, do you know?

578
00:52:50,790 --> 00:52:57,510
Daniel: I think it's the Stripe settings that you can set up for your... So you can do it like as a pre-order type of thing, yeah, where you pre-authorize.

579
00:52:57,510 --> 00:52:58,550
Nesters: Yeah, you can set it up.

580
00:52:58,690 --> 00:52:59,070
Nesters: It's authorized.

581
00:52:59,190 --> 00:53:02,830
Nesters: API also should allow it that you're not capturing only authorized payments.

582
00:53:03,390 --> 00:53:03,590
Daniel: So yeah.

583
00:53:03,770 --> 00:53:07,550
Daniel: But just to... So I'm probably in almost like the worst case scenario.

584
00:53:07,730 --> 00:53:15,070
Daniel: Because actually, Gumroad not only... I mean, Gumroad keeps the whole 10% when you do a refund.

585
00:53:15,170 --> 00:53:20,030
Daniel: So actually, every refund costs me $250, which might sound like it's a lot.

586
00:53:20,350 --> 00:53:23,990
Daniel: But in the grand scheme of things, it's still less than 1% of my revenue.

587
00:53:24,490 --> 00:53:29,530
Daniel: So with 145 members, it was about $262k in revenue.

588
00:53:30,330 --> 00:53:37,570
Daniel: And my 14 people who I refunded cost me $3,500, if I'm doing the math.

589
00:53:37,730 --> 00:53:40,250
Daniel: So it's less than 1%, like 0.9%.

590
00:53:40,250 --> 00:53:44,490
Daniel: So it's just, again, cost of doing business kind of thing.

591
00:53:44,570 --> 00:53:53,410
Daniel: It's not nice, but it still doesn't change much the unit economics, I think, of this business model.

592
00:53:53,650 --> 00:53:55,710
Daniel: But certainly, if there was a way of optimizing it.

593
00:53:57,270 --> 00:54:07,190
Daniel: But what I feel is that very likely, if I didn't do this approach, I might have lost probably more revenue than I would have saved with the refunds.

594
00:54:07,290 --> 00:54:08,330
Daniel: Again, it's a gut feel.

595
00:54:08,830 --> 00:54:09,830
Daniel: Maybe I'm completely...

596
00:54:09,830 --> 00:54:12,910
Hassan: Yeah, no, that makes a lot of sense, I mean, in the bigger context of things.

597
00:54:12,970 --> 00:54:21,090
Hassan: But just to clarify, Daniel, so Gumroads, I thought that there's obviously the 10% charge that doesn't get refunded.

598
00:54:21,130 --> 00:54:26,150
Hassan: But there's also that additional 3% credit card processing fees.

599
00:54:26,250 --> 00:54:27,950
Hassan: Do those get refunded at all?

600
00:54:28,030 --> 00:54:30,890
Hassan: Or is that also gone too?

601
00:54:31,210 --> 00:54:32,570
Daniel: I don't remember.

602
00:54:33,230 --> 00:54:34,730
Daniel: They might not be as well.

603
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:35,790
Daniel: So it might be a bit higher.

604
00:54:35,930 --> 00:54:39,430
Daniel: Yes, it might be like 12.9% or something like that.

605
00:54:40,010 --> 00:54:41,610
Daniel: So yeah, I forgot.

606
00:54:41,970 --> 00:54:41,970
Yeah.

607
00:54:42,610 --> 00:54:47,590
Daniel: But still, yeah, it's probably maybe tips it over 1%, 1.1%.

608
00:54:47,590 --> 00:54:51,830
Daniel: Then if those are also... Oh, yeah, the math still works for you, for sure.

609
00:54:51,990 --> 00:54:54,450
Daniel: I just wanted to kind of look at that from that point.

610
00:54:54,990 --> 00:54:55,190
Daniel: Yeah.

611
00:54:56,990 --> 00:54:57,990
Daniel: But no, yeah.

612
00:54:58,110 --> 00:54:59,090
Daniel: So it's interesting.

613
00:54:59,350 --> 00:54:59,350
Yeah.

614
00:54:59,570 --> 00:55:01,210
Daniel: The refunds things are fascinating.

615
00:55:01,850 --> 00:55:10,290
Daniel: I wish I had more insight, but also we don't want to pressure people to give me feedback.

616
00:55:10,630 --> 00:55:14,610
Daniel: So sort of, I have to sometimes lead between the lines, what's really happening.

617
00:55:15,830 --> 00:55:17,570
Daniel: Nestor, sorry, I don't know if you were saying something.

618
00:55:17,890 --> 00:55:17,890
Yeah.

619
00:55:18,270 --> 00:55:18,770
Daniel: No, no, no.

620
00:55:18,830 --> 00:55:22,410
Nesters: I just wanted to also get to like Victor.

621
00:55:22,810 --> 00:55:25,850
Nesters: And there was also Francesco before.

622
00:55:25,970 --> 00:55:26,830
Nesters: He's back, the listener.

623
00:55:27,130 --> 00:55:31,470
Nesters: But if Victor has any question, because he's been sitting as a speaker for like 15 minutes.

624
00:55:32,450 --> 00:55:32,710
Wiktor: Yeah.

625
00:55:32,710 --> 00:55:33,290
Wiktor: Yeah.

626
00:55:33,510 --> 00:55:53,770
Wiktor: My question was, obviously the service that you provide, people expect for you to help them, but have you, you know, through the kind of information that you're being shared with and just through the cases that you saw, did you take any value out of it?

627
00:55:53,830 --> 00:55:55,450
Wiktor: Except obviously the monetary one.

628
00:55:55,790 --> 00:55:58,010
Wiktor: Like, did you learn something from your clients?

629
00:55:58,150 --> 00:55:58,430
Wiktor: Yes.

630
00:55:58,430 --> 00:55:59,330
Daniel: Very good question.

631
00:55:59,450 --> 00:56:00,050
Daniel: Very good question.

632
00:56:01,370 --> 00:56:04,930
Daniel: A lot, but it's very hard to explain.

633
00:56:05,150 --> 00:56:15,690
Daniel: So certainly it's given me a lot of insight into what people are doing and how they're sort of the challenges they're facing and the successes they had.

634
00:56:15,950 --> 00:56:18,730
Daniel: So it seems like I'm being exposed.

635
00:56:18,850 --> 00:56:20,650
Daniel: I'm increasing my surface area to new things.

636
00:56:20,770 --> 00:56:23,690
Daniel: Nothing really concretely has materialized from these things.

637
00:56:23,690 --> 00:56:33,390
Daniel: But I think more than this, actually, that I am more optimistic something will happen in the future is like just getting to know these people.

638
00:56:33,610 --> 00:56:43,030
Daniel: Lots of people have been on my radar for a long time, but we never really interacted that this was the opportunity for them to, you know, for us to get to talk.

639
00:56:43,470 --> 00:56:43,610
Daniel: Right.

640
00:56:43,650 --> 00:56:53,070
Daniel: And I wouldn't be surprised if like a year from now, I was doing something with someone, right, who I discovered from one of these calls.

641
00:56:53,190 --> 00:57:01,410
Daniel: I've got some of the things really, you know, you start, you start bestowing together, start getting excited together about something when sometimes you start to feel you're on the same wavelength.

642
00:57:02,790 --> 00:57:12,350
Daniel: Again, nothing yet has happened and I think of significance, but it's, I really think it's actually one of the side beneficial side effects of this.

643
00:57:13,510 --> 00:57:15,910
Daniel: It's sort of you're networking as well.

644
00:57:16,010 --> 00:57:26,350
Daniel: Like you're, you're, increasing the chances of some chance encounter with someone that who, which could turn into something consequential.

645
00:57:26,510 --> 00:57:26,790
Daniel: So yeah.

646
00:57:27,350 --> 00:57:27,950
Daniel: Yeah.

647
00:57:27,990 --> 00:57:29,330
Daniel: Good, good question, Victor.

648
00:57:29,850 --> 00:57:30,310
Daniel: Hopefully.

649
00:57:30,650 --> 00:57:30,750
Daniel: Yeah.

650
00:57:30,970 --> 00:57:31,510
Daniel: Yeah.

651
00:57:31,550 --> 00:57:31,870
Daniel: Go ahead.

652
00:57:31,930 --> 00:57:34,610
Daniel: Maybe something you have some other example.

653
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:34,770
Daniel: Yeah.

654
00:57:34,890 --> 00:57:44,670
Nesters: I think I, I think it's a similar that like those that the information I, the input I get is not something I act upon necessarily.

655
00:57:45,410 --> 00:57:50,950
Nesters: However, I've gotten like quite a lot of like those ideas, like, like, Oh wow.

656
00:57:51,090 --> 00:57:56,810
Nesters: There could be a, like to this audience, similar to the person who booked the call, that could actually be a product.

657
00:57:57,010 --> 00:58:06,550
Nesters: And well, if it's an SEO context, for example, I could actually identify, Oh wow, actually there's like probably a decent audience for the issue they have.

658
00:58:06,550 --> 00:58:09,370
Nesters: And I could actually do a product if I would want it to spend time on it.

659
00:58:09,970 --> 00:58:20,470
Nesters: I guess I don't, but, but there, there is that feedback that you get that of new and interesting problems that you can help people, but you have not thought of the angle they bring up.

660
00:58:20,730 --> 00:58:41,610
Nesters: And, and clearly if they bring up an angle during those calls, especially since I had that five and 10 batch, not just unlimited, but I had those five and 10 batches when they come up with specific problems, it kind of gives you a little bit more insight and also very specific problems that you could actually use to data specific or like audience specific offer,

661
00:58:41,710 --> 00:58:42,930
Nesters: for example, or a product.

662
00:58:44,330 --> 00:58:49,170
Nesters: So I think that's a one value, one point you get as well, like one value.

663
00:58:49,450 --> 00:58:50,510
Nesters: I agree on the networking.

664
00:58:50,870 --> 00:58:54,950
Nesters: I mean, I mean, also Daniel is my, my first client, my first client.

665
00:58:54,950 --> 00:58:57,750
Nesters: And I found out about the Gumroad deal beforehand.

666
00:58:58,090 --> 00:59:02,690
Nesters: So that's another benefit, I guess, to sometimes you get some insider trading.

667
00:59:03,250 --> 00:59:05,450
Nesters: Yeah, insider trading.

668
00:59:06,010 --> 00:59:08,290
Nesters: Unfortunately, there was nothing I could trade.

669
00:59:09,190 --> 00:59:11,910
Daniel: Oh wait, is Gumroad selling stock?

670
00:59:12,230 --> 00:59:15,810
Daniel: They, they, they, they are about to, yes, a bit of maybe inside.

671
00:59:15,870 --> 00:59:16,290
Daniel: I don't know.

672
00:59:16,510 --> 00:59:17,550
Daniel: Technically I could sell, I guess.

673
00:59:17,750 --> 00:59:21,490
Nesters: If I had the opportunity, like, yeah, like doing insider trades and that.

674
00:59:21,610 --> 00:59:24,310
Daniel: Anyway, yeah, this is the card.

675
00:59:24,510 --> 00:59:31,150
Nesters: Yeah, that's not, that's not, that's not a, that's not a good, yeah, that's not a good idea, by the way.

676
00:59:31,230 --> 00:59:34,050
Nesters: It's also not legal most of the time, so don't do it, guys.

677
00:59:34,530 --> 00:59:34,870
Nesters: Don't do it.

678
00:59:35,810 --> 00:59:39,230
Nesters: Yeah, Victor, I guess, hopefully that answers your question.

679
00:59:40,170 --> 00:59:45,010
Nesters: And I think Francesco is the next one, also, who potentially has a question.

680
00:59:46,190 --> 00:59:48,590
Nesters: If he wants to ask to be a speaker again.

681
00:59:49,110 --> 00:59:52,970
Nesters: Yeah, I bet he has, he reconnected, so lost the speaker privilege.

682
00:59:53,990 --> 00:59:54,410
Nesters: I see.

683
00:59:55,130 --> 00:59:57,290
Nesters: Oh yeah, but we're also like one hour in.

684
00:59:57,590 --> 01:00:08,070
Nesters: So yeah, all these things we obviously also discuss in various capacity, also in like the SmallBets community, since obviously this is the weekly app of the community.

685
01:00:08,250 --> 01:00:09,690
Nesters: So we get a lot of the community vibes.

686
01:00:10,070 --> 01:00:21,310
Nesters: So anyone's also free to join the community and have a lot of, I guess, fun and discuss whatever, whatever you want with all the 100 plus channels we have there.

687
01:00:21,670 --> 01:00:38,210
Daniel: Yeah, I think something I'll add maybe while we get other questions is, I was speaking with someone, I think actually yesterday, who was considering to do this for urgent things.

688
01:00:38,390 --> 01:00:42,610
Daniel: So this person is a cybersecurity professional, right?

689
01:00:42,670 --> 01:00:55,430
Daniel: And one of the activities you do is, for example, incident response and jumping on when there's an attack or there was a breach or something like that.

690
01:00:57,110 --> 01:00:59,230
Daniel: And again, it's very different from what I do.

691
01:00:59,430 --> 01:01:06,810
Daniel: And I don't really know all the edges of whether it would work or not, but we spend some time thinking about it.

692
01:01:07,130 --> 01:01:26,830
Daniel: And there might be something there where you open up a fixed capacity, of course, that maybe you could take 10 clients that you offer to be their on-call buddy or their security guy friend or something like that.

693
01:01:29,070 --> 01:01:46,830
Daniel: For certain businesses or solopreneurs or so on and so forth, they might not afford, or it would not make sense for them to hire a full-time role or not even part-time, but they would love to have someone that if something were to happen, they have something they could reach out to,

694
01:01:47,170 --> 01:01:52,370
Daniel: and they're not going to tell them, oh, I'm only available in three months from now.

695
01:01:52,470 --> 01:01:55,770
Daniel: They will, within reason, be able to support.

696
01:01:56,690 --> 01:02:08,130
Daniel: So maybe something interesting to think about for people who might have technical knowledge or there are situations where they can provide urgent assistance.

697
01:02:09,330 --> 01:02:12,770
Daniel: Because, again, it's a bit the insurance idea.

698
01:02:14,490 --> 01:02:29,570
Daniel: It would be nice to have someone on speed dial that you could reach out to when something unexpected, good or bad, that could be an opportunity or could be excellent, someone to reach out to.

699
01:02:29,970 --> 01:02:32,830
Daniel: And the fact that that's why I reached out to you, Nestor, is on the Gumroad deal.

700
01:02:32,930 --> 01:02:38,150
Daniel: I just wanted to bounce it with someone else who knows a bit, has some context.

701
01:02:38,370 --> 01:02:40,710
Daniel: I just wanted to see, do you see anything?

702
01:02:41,350 --> 01:02:48,090
Daniel: I mean, I reached out to you before I think I made the proposal to Sahil.

703
01:02:48,330 --> 01:02:54,550
Daniel: I just wanted to see if you see any red flags or anything that I'm missing and so on and so forth.

704
01:02:55,270 --> 01:03:02,610
Daniel: And I wasn't expecting an urgent, I don't think you offer this sort of, yeah, you can call me within 24 hours or whatever.

705
01:03:02,890 --> 01:03:04,910
Daniel: You happen to be available, so I took it.

706
01:03:06,450 --> 01:03:11,570
Daniel: But it's potentially another interesting position when you actually emphasize the urgency, right?

707
01:03:11,610 --> 01:03:16,150
Daniel: And we make that your thing rather than the opposite, just like I'm doing.

708
01:03:16,870 --> 01:03:30,150
Nesters: Yeah, I think the urgent offer is also... I think urgent offers might actually go also pretty well with maybe an annual, not a lifetime offer as well.

709
01:03:30,570 --> 01:03:38,190
Nesters: My main issue, I think, with annuals might be that if someone doesn't use it for the whole year, they might feel like they want to ask for a refund.

710
01:03:38,890 --> 01:03:41,150
Nesters: That's the only feeling I have.

711
01:03:41,810 --> 01:03:44,070
Nesters: Because they don't maybe treat it as insurance.

712
01:03:44,370 --> 01:03:46,530
Nesters: They'll be like, no, no, I didn't use it at all.

713
01:03:46,590 --> 01:03:47,390
Nesters: I want the money back.

714
01:03:48,070 --> 01:03:51,850
Nesters: If they don't treat it as insurance, they might feel that way.

715
01:03:52,490 --> 01:03:56,090
Daniel: Unless they feel that they're going to lose their optionality.

716
01:03:56,290 --> 01:04:08,230
Daniel: For example, something that my accountant does to me, I don't know if they're engineering this, but I have an accountant who I pay a retainer so that they help me along the way.

717
01:04:08,290 --> 01:04:15,050
Daniel: But in reality, I only mostly use them once a year when they're preparing my taxes and so on and so forth.

718
01:04:15,130 --> 01:04:22,310
Daniel: In theory, the retainer allows me to ask them questions with my day-to-day and so on and so forth, but I rarely, rarely use it.

719
01:04:22,530 --> 01:04:33,470
Daniel: Nevertheless, if I was tempted to cancel and sign up in April when it's text time, they make it very clear that they're not going to be available.

720
01:04:33,750 --> 01:04:42,150
Daniel: I think on their website, they have a big message saying, we're not taking clients until 2027 or something like that.

721
01:04:42,790 --> 01:04:45,070
Daniel: And I don't know if they're bluffing or if it's real.

722
01:04:45,430 --> 01:04:49,490
Daniel: When they signed me up, they signed me up very easily.

723
01:04:49,830 --> 01:04:51,090
Daniel: So maybe they're bluffing a bit.

724
01:04:52,070 --> 01:05:10,210
Daniel: But it certainly makes sense to have finite spots for these things and to signal that if you were to cancel, you'll go back to the back of the waiting list.

725
01:05:10,790 --> 01:05:22,010
Daniel: So I think some of the productized services offerings do this, like DesignJoy, for example, one of the more popular design... what's it called?

726
01:05:22,070 --> 01:05:23,030
Daniel: Productized service.

727
01:05:23,330 --> 01:05:29,530
Daniel: They sort of emphasize that, you know, I'm only working with like 15 clients, but there's a waitlist of other people.

728
01:05:29,770 --> 01:05:39,450
Daniel: And so if you were to cancel, then when you do need some design work, you might not find me, because I would have taken someone from the top of the waitlist.

729
01:05:39,610 --> 01:05:44,830
Daniel: So again, thinking through things that might be a way of...

730
01:05:45,490 --> 01:05:46,550
Daniel: however, I don't disagree.

731
01:05:46,890 --> 01:05:54,590
Daniel: It might be more... especially when you're doing something like this, might make more sense to have like an annual fee, because probably...

732
01:05:56,010 --> 01:06:00,350
Nesters: I think it also ends up being more lucrative as well, if you do an annual.

733
01:06:00,850 --> 01:06:03,530
Nesters: I know that monthly charges are a problem.

734
01:06:03,910 --> 01:06:13,850
Nesters: Usually people might cancel a churn, but with an annual, you're more likely to subscribe to something you won't use as much when it's annual, not monthly.

735
01:06:13,850 --> 01:06:16,010
Daniel: I think you're right, yeah.

736
01:06:16,310 --> 01:06:18,210
Daniel: I think Vlad, yeah, has a question.

737
01:06:18,230 --> 01:06:19,930
Nesters: Yeah, Vlad or Francesco.

738
01:06:20,190 --> 01:06:24,230
Nesters: I mean, both have been... I mean, Francesco has been waiting for a long time.

739
01:06:25,230 --> 01:06:26,070
Nesters: Let's check with...

740
01:06:27,790 --> 01:06:28,650
Daniel: Denis as well.

741
01:06:29,110 --> 01:06:31,230
Daniel: Yeah, whoever speaks first, go ahead.

742
01:06:31,610 --> 01:06:32,870
Nesters: All right, there's a race now.

743
01:06:33,250 --> 01:06:35,110
Nesters: Whoever speaks first gets to speak.

744
01:06:36,310 --> 01:06:36,770
Nesters: Come on.

745
01:06:37,410 --> 01:06:38,590
Daniel: There you go, Francesco.

746
01:06:38,670 --> 01:06:39,030
Daniel: All right.

747
01:06:40,470 --> 01:06:40,950
Francesco: Francesco.

748
01:06:40,950 --> 01:06:42,310
Francesco: Yes, yes.

749
01:06:43,170 --> 01:06:45,310
Francesco: Sorry, I couldn't find a way to raise my hand.

750
01:06:45,550 --> 01:06:47,430
Francesco: So I was like, how can I do that?

751
01:06:47,510 --> 01:06:50,150
Francesco: I'm super not good with the interface.

752
01:06:50,270 --> 01:06:51,150
Francesco: I was on the mobile.

753
01:06:51,650 --> 01:07:08,670
Francesco: Actually, just answer my question, because my question was actually the niches, you know, the kind of markets, what you can do, where you can offer this kind of service, because it's not something you can do in every kind of niche or every kind of, you know,

754
01:07:08,750 --> 01:07:12,710
Francesco: specialty, like developing probably is not it's not ideal, you know.

755
01:07:13,010 --> 01:07:29,470
Francesco: And if you got some insight, because I have my small offer as well, and in my case, it kind of works, but sometimes it doesn't work because people come with not a very specific end frame problem.

756
01:07:30,710 --> 01:07:35,950
Francesco: And maybe they just need, like you were saying, some marketing help.

757
01:07:36,250 --> 01:07:42,890
Francesco: So we end up, you know, not doing ads, but doing product related stuff and marketing related stuff.

758
01:07:43,150 --> 01:07:44,650
Francesco: So in my case, it works.

759
01:07:44,830 --> 01:07:59,050
Francesco: But I was curious to know if you think some niche, some... and you just mentioned that, actually, you know, the urgency thing, but if there's some other niches where you could see this working.

760
01:08:00,310 --> 01:08:00,770
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

761
01:08:03,290 --> 01:08:21,730
Daniel: You know, I don't know that it's, I think probably seems to work best when there could be like an advisory value, mostly that were like in your case, for example, that you have all this knowledge about with Facebook ads and Google ads and sort of campaigns and so on and so forth.

762
01:08:23,510 --> 01:08:41,690
Daniel: I think probably the opportunity is like to help people even choose like their ad strategy, like, for example, if I wanted to promote small bets, I could come to you to get ideas about like, what should, what ad platform should I even consider first?

763
01:08:41,750 --> 01:08:42,190
Daniel: Should it be Google?

764
01:08:42,290 --> 01:08:42,850
Daniel: Should it be Facebook?

765
01:08:42,990 --> 01:08:44,050
Daniel: Should it be Instagram?

766
01:08:44,510 --> 01:08:44,890
Daniel: Whatever.

767
01:08:45,270 --> 01:08:56,330
Daniel: And then sort of helping me reason through the pros and cons and convince me like what's better and how to maybe take some prudent chances on some ad campaigns and so on and so forth.

768
01:08:57,470 --> 01:09:03,050
Daniel: But also I think some tactical review can also work.

769
01:09:03,190 --> 01:09:11,550
Daniel: Like if I'm bringing to you some, maybe an ad creative and you're giving feedback on what to improve and how to refine it and so on and so forth.

770
01:09:11,730 --> 01:09:13,670
Daniel: That's also something that could happen.

771
01:09:15,450 --> 01:09:20,390
Daniel: So there's a general, I think, team where things can work.

772
01:09:20,470 --> 01:09:21,470
Daniel: Now it comes to niches.

773
01:09:21,890 --> 01:09:22,090
Daniel: Yeah.

774
01:09:22,770 --> 01:09:23,730
Daniel: I'm not sure.

775
01:09:23,830 --> 01:09:26,690
Daniel: To me, it seems like, you know, these things like marketing,

776
01:09:30,630 --> 01:09:36,530
Daniel: sort of solopreneur stuff, you know, like audience building and blending maybe.

777
01:09:37,850 --> 01:09:43,250
Daniel: I wonder, like, you know, once you start to get into design and development, like you said, Francesco, I'm not sure.

778
01:09:43,350 --> 01:09:44,670
Daniel: Like I start to get more questions.

779
01:09:45,210 --> 01:09:54,970
Daniel: I haven't, especially with the lifetime arrangements, because I think once you start maybe doing more of a retainer model, things change and there's better examples there.

780
01:09:59,490 --> 01:09:59,870
Daniel: Yeah.

781
01:09:59,870 --> 01:10:04,730
Daniel: I'm not giving, I'm sure I'm not giving a satisfying answer because honestly, I don't know yet.

782
01:10:04,870 --> 01:10:10,130
Daniel: I don't know, Anastas, if you've talked to other niches where this may be that flag.

783
01:10:10,330 --> 01:10:17,790
Nesters: I would expect in a way that SEO also is a niche where it's actually a little bit tough because there's a lot of technical details.

784
01:10:18,010 --> 01:10:34,270
Nesters: But I think it's, as long as it stays more on the surface level that you're the advisor, because, yeah, I think even with a copy and your offer, you need to be very mindful about making it about high level versus like that low level daily, like the things you would solve on daily,

785
01:10:35,550 --> 01:10:42,110
Nesters: like on daily basis, and more like on the things that you would solve maybe on monthly basis, which is higher level like planning.

786
01:10:42,390 --> 01:11:04,110
Nesters: So I think if you position it well with that, you could even do it in development for some kind of solution architects, et cetera, for a position where you're actually only need that specific assistance, mentorship, maybe like once a month every couple months from some larger projects where you only need like someone to like bounce some ideas around and,

787
01:11:04,290 --> 01:11:16,530
Nesters: and you don't have that person, for example, in the company, or you don't trust them, or you just want someone from the outside, you'd be like, okay, I'll call this person up and discuss basically what the what the plan solution is, what kind of maybe what,

788
01:11:16,790 --> 01:11:34,070
Nesters: and then they help you maybe what could be the issues, maybe what direction you could take it and then, and then the person has just a more clear, I guess, perspective and also assurance that they have gotten that extra feedback on that they might maybe not missing some blind spots.

789
01:11:35,390 --> 01:11:49,370
Nesters: So yeah, I think a lot of topics can work for the ads also, like, I think sometimes similar to SEO, but with ads, it's more critical that people might feel like, oh, no, my ad campaign is like, I'm losing money, or, or it's just not working.

790
01:11:49,370 --> 01:11:51,250
Nesters: And they actually need like more urgent calls.

791
01:11:51,430 --> 01:11:59,210
Nesters: So I wonder if you actually get those, what's the breakdown is between the urgent problems and like more like planning on a higher level?

792
01:11:59,650 --> 01:12:02,270
Daniel: Yeah, if I it's if I can add something.

793
01:12:02,390 --> 01:12:03,890
Daniel: So go ahead, Francesco.

794
01:12:04,230 --> 01:12:18,650
Daniel: Oh, no, I was going to just emphasize, like, I think I think the lifetime model in particular probably works better for the advisory staff, like the strategic frameworks and things like that.

795
01:12:18,650 --> 01:12:25,990
Daniel: Because usually there's a limit of like, there's a limit of how many frameworks and advice you could give, right?

796
01:12:26,010 --> 01:12:28,590
Daniel: And that becomes sort of part of the limit of this thing, right?

797
01:12:28,590 --> 01:12:48,590
Daniel: But when it comes to tactical, there could potentially become indefinite, like, for example, if I'm, if I'm, if I'm expecting you to review my ad creatives, right, and I'm, you know, doing a new ad every week or every month, and so on and so forth, you could imagine that I might want to just in case,

798
01:12:48,770 --> 01:12:55,430
Daniel: you know, just run it to you, right, every time I do it, just to see if there's something that you have some feedback.

799
01:12:55,750 --> 01:13:01,790
Daniel: So this starts to become a bit, you know, tricky there, right, in terms of, does this, is this compatible with a lifetime approach?

800
01:13:02,490 --> 01:13:18,790
Daniel: Whereas, if it was pure advisory, right, I'm sure you know a lot, Francesco, about ads, and I never know as much about you, but probably you can summarize things in a few, few, few sessions with me as you give me a little bit of like, how you think about things,

801
01:13:19,010 --> 01:13:19,110
Daniel: right?

802
01:13:19,190 --> 01:13:23,090
Daniel: I mean, how should I apply them to my business or my project, and so on and so forth.

803
01:13:23,370 --> 01:13:34,630
Daniel: And very likely after a couple of calls, you know, I will already, you know, get the gist of how I should be thinking about things, you set me on the right direction, and then I go ahead, right?

804
01:13:34,650 --> 01:13:38,550
Daniel: So maybe that's the, maybe that's the better way to think about it.

805
01:13:38,850 --> 01:13:41,310
Daniel: Now, again, to be honest with you, I also do technical stuff.

806
01:13:41,350 --> 01:13:50,110
Daniel: I tell people, look, if you want to, if you have some marketing copy, or you're sending a marketing email and want me to review it with you, you know, we do it together.

807
01:13:50,490 --> 01:14:01,590
Daniel: But I think what ends up happening in these cases is that I also try to teach the person how to fish, you know, so to use that metaphor, right?

808
01:14:01,630 --> 01:14:17,390
Daniel: So I'm not necessarily just reviewing the copy that I might sort of try to tell them, or to help them understand my framework of how to structure something or to be persuasive, or like, what I think is like best practices for a call to action, and so on and so forth.

809
01:14:17,550 --> 01:14:25,310
Daniel: And sort of maybe transforms, even though it's mostly of a technical review session, transforms more into advisory.

810
01:14:25,970 --> 01:14:27,610
Daniel: Yes, here's how I think about this.

811
01:14:27,830 --> 01:14:31,210
Daniel: So almost like implying like, next time, you should be able to do it yourself.

812
01:14:31,470 --> 01:14:34,610
Daniel: Not necessarily because I don't want to talk with them anymore.

813
01:14:34,750 --> 01:14:38,930
Daniel: But even they, they would prefer it like that, they do it on their own, it's faster.

814
01:14:39,450 --> 01:14:47,230
Daniel: And, you know, and so on, they might, you know, become even better at me, like, they keep defining what they're doing.

815
01:14:49,130 --> 01:14:53,510
Daniel: So yeah, so Francesco, I jumped in the middle.

816
01:14:53,730 --> 01:14:54,610
Daniel: Back to you, yeah.

817
01:14:55,250 --> 01:14:57,370
Francesco: Yeah, no, no, no, it's beautiful what you said.

818
01:14:57,510 --> 01:15:13,410
Francesco: I mean, most of the calls, and I can confirm that I try to teach a framework or teach things then, you know, then people and clients can use in their lives.

819
01:15:13,590 --> 01:15:20,870
Francesco: So it's a bit like, not just a tutorial, just a course, because of course, you know, it's just a bit of a passive thing.

820
01:15:21,270 --> 01:15:25,050
Francesco: When you have a person, you can talk to a person for one hour, you can ask things.

821
01:15:25,470 --> 01:15:29,650
Francesco: And it's always better because you can tailor every kind of advice.

822
01:15:29,830 --> 01:15:31,350
Francesco: But what you said is very right.

823
01:15:31,550 --> 01:15:41,070
Francesco: And you're very well positioned, for example, in a lot of things, because you're more advanced than most of us in entrepreneurship and, you know, the internet stuff.

824
01:15:41,350 --> 01:15:43,630
Francesco: So that's, that's great.

825
01:15:43,670 --> 01:15:48,890
Francesco: And I think this is the value that somebody can get a lot from you.

826
01:15:48,990 --> 01:15:56,810
Francesco: That is not just, you know, some specific advice, but really the framework how to move around, around things.

827
01:15:57,090 --> 01:15:58,630
Francesco: So that's great.

828
01:15:58,850 --> 01:16:17,110
Francesco: And just to add on that, for example, I don't do much unlimited, mainly because my audience is limited, and my credibility is still, you know, growing, and it's still still small, probably I have this four session package.

829
01:16:17,110 --> 01:16:25,310
Francesco: And this is my bestseller, I sell more four session package than single sessions.

830
01:16:25,570 --> 01:16:33,310
Francesco: I sold like 26 packages in 14 single sessions, just to give you some numbers.

831
01:16:33,830 --> 01:16:41,790
Francesco: And it's great, because I have like four or five clients that booked more than one pack.

832
01:16:42,210 --> 01:16:55,130
Francesco: But most clients, they're like you were saying, after four calls, they have the tools, they can navigate through the Google Ads interface, for example, or they're not so scared about, you know, creating new ads and so forth.

833
01:16:55,890 --> 01:17:07,650
Francesco: And I think just one last thought about what you are saying is that this can offer anybody can do this kind of offer and could be also a bit of a lead generation type of thing.

834
01:17:07,790 --> 01:17:23,170
Francesco: So even if you don't offer a service, or you don't want to be tied, you can kind of upsell, you know, so you get the customer for the consultation, you keep it on a consultation thing, but you can say, okay, if you want more, you can upsell something.

835
01:17:23,310 --> 01:17:30,970
Francesco: So this could be also, I don't know for which niche in which market, but could be an upsell possibility for lots of professionals.

836
01:17:30,970 --> 01:17:42,250
Francesco: So you kind of, you know, go through this path, maybe you just give up a couple of hours, but then you can upsell something and create a strong relationship with the customer that got to know you.

837
01:17:42,470 --> 01:17:44,370
Francesco: I don't know if this makes sense.

838
01:17:44,630 --> 01:17:45,170
Daniel: No, no, absolutely.

839
01:17:45,370 --> 01:18:04,390
Daniel: And very interesting, because like the security guy I was mentioning earlier, that's exactly how he was seeing it, that his bread and butter would be actually doing pen tests and like these very, you know, projects that he does with companies, but these very easily becomes,

840
01:18:05,130 --> 01:18:12,150
Daniel: yeah, I can be your security buddy, right, sort of, you know, can give you strategic advice and so on and so forth.

841
01:18:12,210 --> 01:18:21,770
Daniel: But then, yeah, you can sort of upsell projects, you know, and, you know, get contacts and other things.

842
01:18:21,890 --> 01:18:22,850
Daniel: So yeah, good point.

843
01:18:23,130 --> 01:18:23,850
Daniel: A very good idea.

844
01:18:26,910 --> 01:18:41,950
Nesters: Yeah, I guess for the one point I wanted to bring up, potentially that could work if you're also when signing up, if you have a waitlist and you create the scarcity, you could also ask like two or three questions.

845
01:18:43,190 --> 01:18:43,590
Nesters: Oh, sorry.

846
01:18:43,730 --> 01:18:46,250
Nesters: And you could kind of profile people on that fence as well.

847
01:18:46,290 --> 01:18:48,490
Nesters: And then you could choose which ones you let through the waitlist.

848
01:18:49,990 --> 01:18:54,370
Daniel: Yeah, you think like you do it like live or to a questionnaire, like...

849
01:18:56,390 --> 01:18:59,350
Nesters: No, no, I mean that you could have a waitlist.

850
01:19:00,430 --> 01:19:07,050
Nesters: If you have like a scarcity, you add the scarcity when you have like limited, like you say there's limited space of, let's say, 10 to 15 people.

851
01:19:07,390 --> 01:19:09,830
Nesters: And maybe the actual space is around 10 to 15.

852
01:19:09,950 --> 01:19:11,770
Nesters: Maybe you like let a couple more in.

853
01:19:11,950 --> 01:19:26,970
Nesters: But the point is that if there's a waitlist, you could, when they sign up, because there's a waitlist, they don't expect to get right in, you could still send like some kind of like, or maybe add it as a already in the onboarding for them when they just sign up for the waitlist.

854
01:19:27,110 --> 01:19:43,370
Nesters: You ask for like two, three questions, simple questions in a form where they basically kind of already provide you the idea of whether they're like going to be like on a beginner level, or they actually need specific help with like, on like day to day operations,

855
01:19:43,370 --> 01:19:44,350
Nesters: or they need advisory.

856
01:19:44,650 --> 01:19:47,850
Nesters: Basically, you can ask like what their role is, for example, or what they're working on.

857
01:19:47,850 --> 01:19:54,430
Nesters: And you kind of right away get the idea that maybe they need more advisory rather than like this daily day to day help.

858
01:19:54,790 --> 01:20:00,630
Nesters: And that way, you can technically choose which ones you let through the waitlist, because you receive the responses.

859
01:20:00,930 --> 01:20:01,770
Daniel: Very, very interesting.

860
01:20:02,410 --> 01:20:10,950
Daniel: And because certainly there's, there's people I work with, which take, which are way more enjoyable to work with.

861
01:20:11,070 --> 01:20:17,350
Daniel: And again, not necessarily because, because of them personally, like, but it was of their domain or what they need help with, right?

862
01:20:17,470 --> 01:20:24,510
Daniel: If certain if something is within my wheelhouse, I have much more fun, it's more satisfying, and I'm sure I'm can be more helpful.

863
01:20:25,450 --> 01:20:33,050
Daniel: And, and yeah, sort of having a selection can, can, can, can, can help with that.

864
01:20:33,210 --> 01:20:33,850
Daniel: It's interesting.

865
01:20:34,930 --> 01:20:37,690
Daniel: Maybe something that might sound surprising to people, actually.

866
01:20:39,170 --> 01:20:45,870
Daniel: I think, because, you know, I look at my calendar every day to see what's what I have up, up and coming.

867
01:20:46,230 --> 01:20:58,590
Daniel: And with some of the people who I have many calls, right, these are not the ones that are closer to the average of, like, two or three calls, but the ones that I actually speak, like, had maybe 10 plus calls.

868
01:20:59,090 --> 01:21:02,830
Daniel: Sometimes I actually look more forward to those than the other ones, right?

869
01:21:02,830 --> 01:21:05,070
Daniel: I mean, they take much less energy from me.

870
01:21:05,410 --> 01:21:15,730
Daniel: Like, usually I have all their contacts, like, there's sort of, I know what they're doing, and chances are they're booking more calls because they're getting help and, like, things are moving.

871
01:21:16,030 --> 01:21:20,590
Daniel: Because there's, there's an energy component to this that is very hard to quantify.

872
01:21:21,150 --> 01:21:27,290
Daniel: But there are certain calls that I feel like I join, sort of, certainly I'm there, like, I'm engaged.

873
01:21:27,470 --> 01:21:29,390
Daniel: I'm not doing, I'm not, like, cancelling emails or whatever.

874
01:21:29,570 --> 01:21:30,930
Daniel: Like, I'm fully engaged always.

875
01:21:32,230 --> 01:21:34,750
Daniel: But they're still just, just easier, right?

876
01:21:34,810 --> 01:21:42,650
Daniel: It's just, again, like, just maybe just because the help is more related to things I've done much closer, and I can relate easily.

877
01:21:42,850 --> 01:21:57,490
Daniel: But then there are others which it's almost like I need to activate the, you know, dormant part of my brain, like, I'm using much more energy, running on more, more inefficient, and you feel a bit more drained after the call.

878
01:21:57,670 --> 01:22:15,870
Daniel: And usually these are the ones where, you know, if I had a selection process that I might have not picked up, if I didn't want to choose only, right, the, you know, candidates, right, or prospects or whatever you call them, right, that are, you know, more,

879
01:22:16,210 --> 01:22:18,410
Daniel: need help more in my wheelhouse, and so on and so forth.

880
01:22:19,370 --> 01:22:27,170
Daniel: Anyway, it's not something I've done, right, so far, so I didn't have any selection process, but it might be a way of defining this to make it easier.

881
01:22:27,470 --> 01:22:31,290
Daniel: By the way, another... let me just tell one thing.

882
01:22:31,490 --> 01:22:32,210
Daniel: Sorry, sorry, go ahead.

883
01:22:32,750 --> 01:22:33,190
Daniel: I go?

884
01:22:33,410 --> 01:22:33,710
Daniel: No, no.

885
01:22:34,370 --> 01:22:35,230
Daniel: Yeah, you go.

886
01:22:35,230 --> 01:22:48,070
Daniel: I, there was, there was, I heard something recently, and maybe I should have done this, because another drawback that I have is that I do all of this from my home office, I'm in front of the computer, and so on and so forth.

887
01:22:48,470 --> 01:23:09,730
Daniel: But maybe I should have done this as a walk and talk kind of setup, right, because if I'm helping people, like, I'm out on a walk, right, and, you know, and I'm just verbally communicating, I don't need to be in front of the computer and on the opening documents and so forth,

888
01:23:09,830 --> 01:23:10,450
Daniel: so on and so forth.

889
01:23:10,790 --> 01:23:24,310
Daniel: It would also probably have removed a lot of the, you know, part of the, you know, I would have been able to multitask a little bit, if you want to call it multitasking, at least spending some calories and being outside and so on and so forth, whenever the weather permits.

890
01:23:24,650 --> 01:23:31,050
Daniel: Of course, there's a trade-off, right, because there are some things that are hard to do when I'm not on, in front of a screen.

891
01:23:31,310 --> 01:23:44,330
Daniel: But that might also be another way of maybe self, you know, self-selecting and carving out something that might be just maybe more enjoyable and, you know, more fun.

892
01:23:44,630 --> 01:23:59,030
Nesters: I think when you introduce any of those selection criteria, you are definitely reducing that randomness that could actually lead to some insights that you would actually have never expected, but lead to something more.

893
01:23:59,390 --> 01:24:04,470
Nesters: And I think that's a risk factor when you do limit this and you have a selection process.

894
01:24:05,210 --> 01:24:17,530
Nesters: However, I guess the selection process does work for those who actually have limited capacity for like this specific thing that you might be offering, like if it's an annual, some kind of security body, etc.

895
01:24:17,690 --> 01:24:20,590
Nesters: Like if there's actually limitation, how many you can accept.

896
01:24:21,310 --> 01:24:26,010
Nesters: And I think it makes sense that you might want to choose the specific customers that you work with.

897
01:24:26,290 --> 01:24:26,670
Daniel: Very good point.

898
01:24:27,790 --> 01:24:28,950
Daniel: I love that, actually.

899
01:24:29,130 --> 01:24:42,510
Daniel: This is why, for using the For You tab on Twitter, rather than the following tab, because I actually enjoy some of the randomness, even though there's a lot of nonsense and, you know, engagement stuff.

900
01:24:43,210 --> 01:24:52,090
Nesters: But the nonsense is crazy, but there's a lot, like, it's hard to say, like, it's exposure to the randomness is probably not bad.

901
01:24:52,190 --> 01:25:07,670
Nesters: I actually have come up with some weird ideas when I just browsed the For You tab, just because of the fact that, like, I don't necessarily agree or like the content I see, but the angles, they, like, you could technically remix some of those angles and other things and they work,

902
01:25:07,750 --> 01:25:09,210
Nesters: like, they probably will work.

903
01:25:09,230 --> 01:25:13,870
Nesters: It's just that, like, but unless you sit on that tab, you don't actually get exposed to them.

904
01:25:14,150 --> 01:25:18,530
Nesters: Obviously, the risk is always that you're letting so much randomness in your brain.

905
01:25:18,810 --> 01:25:19,830
Daniel: The brain nuts, yes.

906
01:25:20,290 --> 01:25:30,270
Nesters: Yeah, the brain nuts, like, it's not good, like, there's certainly bad aspects of it, but it does offer this complete randomness of discovery of some amazing things, potentially.

907
01:25:30,530 --> 01:25:50,630
Nesters: So I would say that it's maybe worth sitting on the For You feed occasionally, at least for people, like, and just embrace whatever is there, but yeah, but that's the randomness part of, like, trying to actually, like, moving from that local maxima and the 4D,

908
01:25:50,910 --> 01:25:52,310
Nesters: you know, the dimension.

909
01:25:52,310 --> 01:26:06,270
Daniel: I agree, but I think, like, on a serious note, I mean, you really made me think about some, probably, like, if I had a vetting process, there might have been some people who I would have not chosen, but they were actually very eye-opening.

910
01:26:06,590 --> 01:26:12,610
Daniel: And I'm very grateful now that I actually got to get some exposure to their world and how they operate and things like that.

911
01:26:12,650 --> 01:26:19,030
Daniel: So yeah, it's everything, yeah, it's pros and cons with everything.

912
01:26:20,330 --> 01:26:23,130
Nesters: Vlad, I guess, I guess I can onboard Vlad.

913
01:26:23,150 --> 01:26:26,350
Daniel: He was about to speak and we jumped, he got bullied.

914
01:26:29,430 --> 01:26:30,570
Vlad: Francesco was waiting longer.

915
01:26:30,890 --> 01:26:35,890
Vlad: Who would win in a fight, a hundred small bettors or a gorilla?

916
01:26:36,690 --> 01:26:37,670
Daniel: Yeah, I don't know.

917
01:26:37,830 --> 01:26:38,630
Daniel: I think we have a chance.

918
01:26:38,990 --> 01:26:42,150
Daniel: And the small bettors, I think the small bettors wins against the gorilla.

919
01:26:42,610 --> 01:26:43,450
Daniel: I think so, yeah.

920
01:26:43,550 --> 01:26:47,470
Daniel: I think, actually, we would befriend the gorilla and make it part of our team.

921
01:26:50,770 --> 01:26:52,050
Vlad: You covered most of it.

922
01:26:52,050 --> 01:26:55,610
Nesters: Yeah, we showed the gorilla before you feed and then he's like, okay, I'm on your team.

923
01:26:56,790 --> 01:27:00,850
Wiktor: We would teach the gorilla how to make B2B SaaS and then he would just go off.

924
01:27:02,810 --> 01:27:07,690
Nesters: And he's just going to go on LinkedIn and be like, what I learned about B2B sales by being a gorilla.

925
01:27:08,170 --> 01:27:12,170
Vlad: I think some of the B2B SaaS people might actually be gorillas already.

926
01:27:12,170 --> 01:27:13,970
Vlad: This has already been done.

927
01:27:14,910 --> 01:27:19,470
Vlad: You talked about most of what I wanted to ask over the past 15 minutes.

928
01:27:19,670 --> 01:27:23,010
Vlad: I was really interested in the example you gave with the security expert.

929
01:27:23,850 --> 01:27:34,170
Vlad: I like to think of the prospect of being an internet plumber, essentially getting called when hits the fan.

930
01:27:35,910 --> 01:27:41,510
Daniel: Like the server guy, like the on-call pager duty kind of person.

931
01:27:41,610 --> 01:27:51,930
Vlad: Yeah, or if you're a database guy, maybe you lost a database, someone dropped the table or something and you don't have a backup and you can call someone who knows their databases.

932
01:27:54,150 --> 01:27:57,490
Vlad: I'm curious if you can think of any other examples.

933
01:27:59,490 --> 01:28:01,210
Vlad: I had some on my mind.

934
01:28:01,490 --> 01:28:11,030
Vlad: You mentioned an architect's role where I think Nestor said you don't trust someone, so you call someone else to double-check their work.

935
01:28:11,770 --> 01:28:23,210
Vlad: I can think of a few examples where someone actually got scammed by someone who claimed to be a US pilot, retired now in Costa Rica, turns out he never went to the army.

936
01:28:23,430 --> 01:28:25,490
Vlad: He just stole all their money.

937
01:28:28,130 --> 01:28:44,430
Nesters: Yeah, I think there's a lot of benefit in that second opinion, especially when it comes to... especially if you know those people might just only call a couple times a year because that's their cadence of that big decision making and they just want to double check with you.

938
01:28:44,570 --> 01:28:59,970
Nesters: I think it makes sense for any role who has that potential, but obviously you're very selective about the audience at that point because you kind of know that exact people who might be interested in that offer.

939
01:29:01,390 --> 01:29:04,210
Vlad: Performance optimization for websites also comes to mind.

940
01:29:04,470 --> 01:29:17,550
Vlad: A lot of websites suffer from being very slow and even running a very basic lighthouse report and looking at the problems and outlining what the most important are, not everyone knows how to do that.

941
01:29:18,990 --> 01:29:21,030
Daniel: Yeah, I think there it's like what we talked about before.

942
01:29:21,150 --> 01:29:30,780
Daniel: You probably want to be careful to make it more advisory and sort of here's how to think about performance rather than...

943
01:29:31,730 --> 01:29:35,310
Daniel: Because performance never ends.

944
01:29:35,430 --> 01:29:36,810
Daniel: You can always keep improving.

945
01:29:37,370 --> 01:29:39,000
Daniel: It's something like...

946
01:29:43,590 --> 01:29:44,450
Daniel: Sure.

947
01:29:44,450 --> 01:30:00,290
Daniel: We started this discussion saying there's always a natural throttling mechanism in these things because if you keep them synchronous, whoever needs help needs to set up a call with you and spend an hour of their time being there.

948
01:30:00,410 --> 01:30:08,470
Daniel: So if they're trying to make their website two milliseconds faster, they're probably not going to bother calling you.

949
01:30:08,590 --> 01:30:29,170
Daniel: So maybe, yes, there is something about, yeah, like I have a broad problem where I want to improve the performance of my app and I want you to take a look just to help me prioritize what to focus on first and how to measure and what to consider and so on and so forth.

950
01:30:29,330 --> 01:30:34,210
Daniel: And the pain needs to be high enough for people to make a call because otherwise they might not bother.

951
01:30:34,570 --> 01:30:37,090
Daniel: So yeah.

952
01:30:37,730 --> 01:30:51,570
Vlad: I think we're on the two ends of the spectrum because this app is about lifetime, unlimited lifetime consultations, but a lot of people don't have the skills for that or aren't in the right business for that kind of thing.

953
01:30:51,750 --> 01:30:56,310
Vlad: Like if I offer that to someone, they just use me for free developer labor for life.

954
01:30:57,090 --> 01:30:59,290
Vlad: Yeah, but you don't need to do it, right?

955
01:30:59,430 --> 01:31:00,570
Vlad: I mean, you can say, yeah.

956
01:31:01,250 --> 01:31:07,150
Vlad: I'm just thinking, what could I possibly offer that I can use my skills in that way?

957
01:31:09,290 --> 01:31:09,890
Daniel: Yeah.

958
01:31:10,490 --> 01:31:21,050
Daniel: I think probably I would start asking myself, you already came up with some ideas, like for example, database recovery or website performance or things like that.

959
01:31:21,490 --> 01:31:26,690
Daniel: And two questions, that is like, why not do it?

960
01:31:26,870 --> 01:31:37,130
Daniel: I mean, is there maybe some worst case scenario or some downsides that you think would make this not a wise thing to do?

961
01:31:37,150 --> 01:31:41,430
Daniel: And the other one is, how can you bring this in front of some people?

962
01:31:41,610 --> 01:31:46,210
Daniel: Of course, there's a distribution, like with everything in business, there's a distribution.

963
01:31:46,890 --> 01:31:56,930
Daniel: Part of it is, if you were to post about this, say on LinkedIn or somewhere, do you think enough people will see it?

964
01:31:56,990 --> 01:31:59,370
Daniel: That is what tempts them to jump on it.

965
01:32:01,530 --> 01:32:07,570
Daniel: Or you might have to figure out the right clouds to go to that says that you can promote what you're doing.

966
01:32:07,650 --> 01:32:09,210
Daniel: But I think we've seen some examples.

967
01:32:09,530 --> 01:32:18,650
Daniel: I think even you, Nestor, I think you posted on Twitter, they have less than a thousand followers and you got some people to jump on this.

968
01:32:18,810 --> 01:32:21,250
Daniel: I don't think you advertised much.

969
01:32:21,590 --> 01:32:23,430
Nesters: No, I didn't advertise it that much.

970
01:32:23,590 --> 01:32:31,390
Nesters: There were some passive clients and a lot of them also came from you recommending me, which is impressive how people signed up without knowing.

971
01:32:31,570 --> 01:32:36,910
Nesters: The most impressive part that people signed up not knowing me, signed up because you recommended me.

972
01:32:37,090 --> 01:32:52,630
Nesters: So in any case, if you know there's someone recommending you, for example, in an audience like Peter Levels, Daniel, et cetera, anywhere with a bigger audience, if you know that, maybe that's a position where you can also upsell something like this offer,

973
01:32:52,890 --> 01:33:00,850
Nesters: because just people might, based on that recommendation, be more likely to just buy this opportunity of being a lifetime client, for example.

974
01:33:01,550 --> 01:33:10,970
Nesters: But that's actually one of funnel for people with smaller audience could be if you actually work with someone with a bigger audience, you might actually also benefit from it.

975
01:33:12,030 --> 01:33:17,650
Nesters: That people like jump on that train because they feel like, oh yeah, if this person is using it, I could also use this.

976
01:33:18,350 --> 01:33:21,070
Nesters: That was actually where I got a decent chunk of it.

977
01:33:21,210 --> 01:33:23,990
Nesters: And then over time also other people were jumping in.

978
01:33:24,050 --> 01:33:26,750
Nesters: Some of them also like, oh yeah, I do recommend this.

979
01:33:27,190 --> 01:33:33,570
Nesters: Remember that Daniel also recommended you, and I wanted to reach out and see if this is an option for me.

980
01:33:33,630 --> 01:33:35,470
Nesters: And it's like, yeah, you can join.

981
01:33:35,630 --> 01:33:37,510
Nesters: And they joined that way as well.

982
01:33:37,670 --> 01:33:39,130
Nesters: So there's definitely a lot of this.

983
01:33:40,990 --> 01:33:43,810
Nesters: A lot of it definitely is if someone's recommending you.

984
01:33:43,870 --> 01:33:55,330
Nesters: I'm pretty sure Francesco was also very similar, that a lot of the people came after some public recommendations came in, and he was getting more calls booked in the package as well.

985
01:33:55,370 --> 01:33:59,370
Nesters: It's mostly, I guess, about the public reputation in a sense, yeah.

986
01:33:59,490 --> 01:34:04,070
Nesters: But you could potentially run ads maybe for this offer as well.

987
01:34:04,630 --> 01:34:15,310
Nesters: Especially if those more urgent cases were not urgent cases, but more like, oh, I need this buddy to save my security buddy or something.

988
01:34:15,410 --> 01:34:28,370
Nesters: I think for that, maybe running ads even sometimes makes sense because it's an option where people feel more urgently that they might need someone, but they're not sure about anyone who they could have.

989
01:34:28,730 --> 01:34:35,250
Nesters: And this kind of annual, maybe, or lifetime offer could be like, price-wise, it would look great for them.

990
01:34:35,410 --> 01:34:37,530
Nesters: So they just instantly book you.

991
01:34:39,250 --> 01:34:40,530
Daniel: Yeah, it's interesting.

992
01:34:40,950 --> 01:34:51,670
Daniel: I was actually thinking about this yesterday, because yesterday I had, I think, because most people who signed up for my consultations, most of them came from the small business community.

993
01:34:51,890 --> 01:34:54,190
Daniel: So most of them knew about me.

994
01:34:54,310 --> 01:35:00,150
Daniel: But yesterday I had a call with a person who discovered me purely by chance and knew nothing about me.

995
01:35:00,630 --> 01:35:04,150
Daniel: And incidentally, it was through Gumroad, believe it or not.

996
01:35:04,250 --> 01:35:06,670
Daniel: They were reading someone talking about Gumroad.

997
01:35:06,910 --> 01:35:10,350
Daniel: They clicked on the link and they opened Gumroad for the first time.

998
01:35:10,810 --> 01:35:32,710
Daniel: And they went to the, there was like the discover page and I was listed there and they clicked on my product and it was compelling enough for them to jump on it without relying at all on social proof or any other signal, which made me think about the advertising potential.

999
01:35:32,870 --> 01:35:45,370
Daniel: It's not something I've considered, but I think if you put these kinds of offers in front of the right people, if they're compelling enough, and when you think about it, I think this is why we're talking about lifetime consultations.

1000
01:35:45,530 --> 01:35:50,630
Daniel: The unique thing here is this sort of very, very compelling offer.

1001
01:35:52,110 --> 01:36:03,090
Daniel: And again, even though I can't speak from personal experience with ads, I wouldn't be surprised if this is something that can work, if it shows up.

1002
01:36:03,230 --> 01:36:10,370
Nesters: I mean, if your acquisition cost is even like 500, you're only putting 20% of your margin on that.

1003
01:36:11,130 --> 01:36:16,290
Nesters: And 500, you can go pretty far with the 500.

1004
01:36:16,650 --> 01:36:28,330
Nesters: And especially if you have multiple offers and this is not your only offer, suddenly you're exposing them to, oh, wow, this is too expensive, but I can grab this course, for example, or I can join this community, the person's running first.

1005
01:36:28,970 --> 01:36:38,130
Nesters: So they technically like, so yeah, you might acquire them for something else entirely if you position it well with the landing page, etc.

1006
01:36:38,530 --> 01:36:44,010
Nesters: So I think there's definitely options with that as well.

1007
01:36:44,110 --> 01:36:56,850
Nesters: And if the offer is like 2,500, and you're not exactly in a very competitive market with this, for example, that acquisition cost, I mean, even if it's 500, it's only 20% margin.

1008
01:36:57,170 --> 01:37:05,870
Nesters: So if you're willing to put that up, and you assume the average is still let's say three to five calls, I mean, the hourly rate is pretty good.

1009
01:37:06,090 --> 01:37:06,470
Daniel: It is.

1010
01:37:06,590 --> 01:37:07,770
Daniel: No, no, very good point.

1011
01:37:07,930 --> 01:37:09,630
Daniel: And then I didn't even think to it like that.

1012
01:37:09,850 --> 01:37:21,730
Daniel: And to be honest with you, the only reason I'm probably not going to jump on this entire meeting was I feel like I'm a bit at capacity right now, even though I was still taking a few more members.

1013
01:37:22,170 --> 01:37:37,270
Daniel: But I think I'm at a stage where, and this might be something interesting to discuss a little bit as well, because now I'm sort of thinking of scaling this, not just doing it just myself, but adding other people.

1014
01:37:37,510 --> 01:37:53,670
Daniel: But this will almost certainly make it incompatible with it being a lifetime thing, because I don't think it's viable to promise people that not just me, but maybe 10 other people are going to be available indefinitely.

1015
01:37:54,230 --> 01:38:00,950
Daniel: So I think the only way to offer that is it has to be probably a yearly fee or maybe monthly.

1016
01:38:01,470 --> 01:38:10,450
Nesters: Yeah, I think we also talked about it before and I felt like annual makes more sense than monthly because with the monthly, you're more likely to churn if you don't book a single call.

1017
01:38:10,710 --> 01:38:14,870
Nesters: And you're also more likely to book more calls if you're actually into it.

1018
01:38:15,190 --> 01:38:20,570
Nesters: But with annual, you both kind of feel more relaxed that you don't need to book the call right away.

1019
01:38:20,810 --> 01:38:29,030
Nesters: So on average, you book less calls, but at the same time, you feel safe that like, yeah, I have this access to all these people for a year.

1020
01:38:29,250 --> 01:38:36,130
Nesters: So I think the annual and also from providing the same experts for annual still sounds reasonable.

1021
01:38:36,370 --> 01:38:38,750
Nesters: I believe that people are less likely to drop out.

1022
01:38:38,990 --> 01:38:43,350
Nesters: So I think the annual deal is like a middle ground where it makes a lot of sense.

1023
01:38:45,030 --> 01:38:53,570
Daniel: I think this would probably be my next experiment, which again is a bit, you could argue almost like off topic because we're emphasizing the lifetime part here.

1024
01:38:53,650 --> 01:38:54,730
Daniel: That's what makes it interesting.

1025
01:38:54,850 --> 01:39:01,930
Daniel: It is a bit more boring because now it becomes another sort of retainer type thing, which is much more traditional.

1026
01:39:02,630 --> 01:39:10,550
Daniel: But there's some, I think certainly for me, there has been some lessons from this that will apply there because it will still be unlimited.

1027
01:39:10,870 --> 01:39:24,990
Daniel: Again, maybe abusing the word unlimited a little bit because I think the idea is that you want, we're not counting as frequently as you want, but to maintain that privilege, you would be paying like a yearly fee.

1028
01:39:25,710 --> 01:39:31,790
Daniel: So again, nothing is set in stone here, but I'm thinking somewhat still in the same price point, but yearly.

1029
01:39:31,990 --> 01:39:40,730
Daniel: So maybe 2,500, maybe 2,000, where instead of just having access to me, there would be maybe 10, maybe even 20 other people.

1030
01:39:40,990 --> 01:39:56,250
Daniel: So helping with things that go beyond my skills, tax and legal, accounting, branding, design, SEO, starting a YouTube channel, all these kinds of things.

1031
01:39:57,230 --> 01:40:03,550
Daniel: And I think it would be a very, very compelling offer if, again, it's the packaging and the pricing needs to be right.

1032
01:40:03,690 --> 01:40:05,250
Daniel: I mean, that's an important thing.

1033
01:40:05,490 --> 01:40:20,030
Daniel: But imagine having access, again, metaphorically on speed dial, even though we're not necessarily emphasizing the urgency part, but if you need help with something, you have someone you can talk to, they know your content, they have your context.

1034
01:40:21,550 --> 01:40:23,290
Daniel: And yeah, they're always available.

1035
01:40:23,410 --> 01:40:30,490
Nesters: And that's why I think the annual makes more sense because there's obviously some capacity that's available.

1036
01:40:30,930 --> 01:40:39,110
Nesters: So if you get monthly and people do churn, that also for the people who are offering the consultation, there's this constant context switching.

1037
01:40:39,250 --> 01:40:51,570
Nesters: But if you get the same people and there's this actual urgency also for people to buy into it because there's a limited capacity, then you're more likely to convert them even if the price is higher because it's annual.

1038
01:40:51,850 --> 01:40:54,990
Nesters: But you're also keeping it more consistent for everyone involved.

1039
01:40:55,130 --> 01:41:01,470
Nesters: So I think it's definitely sounds like it would benefit both sides in that context more.

1040
01:41:01,470 --> 01:41:02,190
Nesters: I agree.

1041
01:41:03,150 --> 01:41:04,990
Daniel: So yeah, we'll see.

1042
01:41:05,470 --> 01:41:06,710
Nesters: We'll see, yeah.

1043
01:41:06,790 --> 01:41:11,750
Nesters: But that's basically like adding on top of the resident experts in the small bits community, right?

1044
01:41:11,930 --> 01:41:13,110
Daniel: In a way, yeah.

1045
01:41:13,430 --> 01:41:17,270
Daniel: It's all sort of, it's a bit of a mixed mashup between these two, right?

1046
01:41:17,510 --> 01:41:17,510
Yeah.

1047
01:41:19,130 --> 01:41:27,930
Daniel: And I'm, because you know, there's, I mean, for me to run this as a business, there's the other unit economic issue of like, how do I pay the consultants?

1048
01:41:28,290 --> 01:41:39,690
Daniel: Initially, I thought it could be like, you know, just profit sharing based on but it might be a bit too inconsistent and a bit hard to manage again because of the time period.

1049
01:41:39,850 --> 01:41:50,730
Daniel: So the easiest might be, you know, just the consultants get paid by the call, say, you know, a fixed rate, $250 an hour or something like that, right?

1050
01:41:50,870 --> 01:41:59,650
Daniel: And then I would incur the risk of making sure that, you know, the subscription revenue is higher than the expenses.

1051
01:42:00,290 --> 01:42:14,890
Daniel: And based on, again, like the assumptions I learned about call frequencies and things like that from my own experiment, I probably need to be a bit more conservative because presumably having more expertise available will likely result in more calls.

1052
01:42:15,450 --> 01:42:20,410
Daniel: So there's a, you know, I need some error bands there like to cover that.

1053
01:42:20,870 --> 01:42:27,850
Daniel: But again, I would be very, very, very surprised if like someone was like, even like the average was booking a call every single month, right?

1054
01:42:27,850 --> 01:42:40,370
Daniel: When you think about it, a month plus this quick leave and you have like at your disposal, the expertise of like 10 people or 20 people, probably your average will be much lower than, you know, 12 calls a year, I think.

1055
01:42:41,110 --> 01:42:42,890
Daniel: Again, I might be wrong.

1056
01:42:43,190 --> 01:42:45,050
Daniel: I will sort of, that's part of the...

1057
01:42:45,050 --> 01:42:45,170
Daniel: Yeah.

1058
01:42:45,250 --> 01:42:50,310
Daniel: I mean, if you're wrong, the biggest problem is you're literally running at the last for a year, basically.

1059
01:42:50,530 --> 01:42:50,750
Daniel: Yeah.

1060
01:42:50,810 --> 01:42:52,370
Daniel: And you can raise your prices again.

1061
01:42:52,470 --> 01:42:56,750
Daniel: Like this is the thing, you know, you know, it's not set in stone.

1062
01:42:56,890 --> 01:42:59,610
Daniel: You can say, you know, thank you for joining.

1063
01:42:59,730 --> 01:43:03,050
Daniel: But next year, I mean, my accountant does this to me almost every year.

1064
01:43:03,190 --> 01:43:06,170
Daniel: They raise their prices and I keep paying, right?

1065
01:43:06,550 --> 01:43:11,630
Daniel: They always have some reason, cost of living, higher inflation, whatever.

1066
01:43:14,750 --> 01:43:15,010
Nesters: Yeah.

1067
01:43:15,030 --> 01:43:16,030
Nesters: We had that extra question.

1068
01:43:16,170 --> 01:43:17,470
Nesters: The person was trying to unmute.

1069
01:43:17,690 --> 01:43:17,690
Yeah.

1070
01:43:17,890 --> 01:43:18,090
Nesters: Yeah.

1071
01:43:18,230 --> 01:43:18,630
Nesters: Go on.

1072
01:43:20,290 --> 01:43:22,230
Vineet: Hey guys, this is Vineet.

1073
01:43:23,730 --> 01:43:24,910
Vineet: You're talking about me, right?

1074
01:43:24,950 --> 01:43:25,470
Vineet: Or someone else?

1075
01:43:25,530 --> 01:43:25,930
Vineet: Yes, yes.

1076
01:43:26,090 --> 01:43:26,590
Wiktor: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1077
01:43:26,770 --> 01:43:27,490
Vineet: Oh, that's me, that's me.

1078
01:43:28,190 --> 01:43:31,090
Vineet: So I've been following, you know, Daniel's journey for a while.

1079
01:43:31,850 --> 01:43:37,850
Vineet: I think from the time, I think I started following him when he was trying to create like the software product.

1080
01:43:38,210 --> 01:43:39,830
Vineet: I forgot what it was, but...

1081
01:43:39,830 --> 01:43:40,710
Vineet: Userbase, yeah.

1082
01:43:41,210 --> 01:43:41,610
Vineet: Userbase.

1083
01:43:41,710 --> 01:43:42,270
Vineet: Right, right, right.

1084
01:43:42,370 --> 01:43:47,510
Vineet: And so it's been a journey kind of following you and just seeing your growth online.

1085
01:43:47,730 --> 01:43:51,870
Vineet: And just I think the thing that I struggle with, you know, I run a few SaaS companies.

1086
01:43:52,150 --> 01:43:54,850
Vineet: We do a few million dollars in revenue.

1087
01:43:56,050 --> 01:43:56,410
Vineet: Nice.

1088
01:43:57,150 --> 01:44:00,050
Vineet: You know, I've experimented with lifetime products.

1089
01:44:00,710 --> 01:44:01,830
Vineet: It's worked really well.

1090
01:44:02,670 --> 01:44:14,030
Vineet: But I think that the thing that sort of, I don't know, I think the difference between maybe your model of how you kind of create courses, sell them once.

1091
01:44:14,150 --> 01:44:21,330
Vineet: I don't know if you update them or like in terms of like small bets, creating a community and maybe selling it.

1092
01:44:21,770 --> 01:44:23,350
Vineet: I do like that approach.

1093
01:44:23,450 --> 01:44:31,930
Vineet: I feel like you're kind of like just sort of building on your own brand and like kind of monetizing it at different parts that you get.

1094
01:44:32,330 --> 01:44:40,450
Vineet: But as somebody that sort of is creating a software product and has a bunch of them and I'm not really thinking of selling it in the near future.

1095
01:44:41,630 --> 01:44:53,570
Vineet: I really struggled with selling like lifetime stuff because I think that it kind of, at least for me personally, it goes against the builder operator model.

1096
01:44:54,270 --> 01:44:56,230
Vineet: It's more like a consultant model.

1097
01:44:56,510 --> 01:45:00,230
Vineet: A consultant moves from company to company, project to project.

1098
01:45:01,190 --> 01:45:10,530
Vineet: And while I do see a lot of value because when we sold, for example, we sold an unlimited lifetime license for one of our products for $5,000.

1099
01:45:11,710 --> 01:45:12,750
Vineet: And people use it.

1100
01:45:12,810 --> 01:45:13,490
Vineet: They love it.

1101
01:45:13,910 --> 01:45:16,890
Vineet: And they consistently want like consultation.

1102
01:45:17,370 --> 01:45:18,630
Vineet: They want to know how to use it.

1103
01:45:19,230 --> 01:45:21,570
Vineet: And I'm fine with like getting on call and helping them.

1104
01:45:21,650 --> 01:45:28,550
Vineet: But I feel a bit, I struggle a bit to be like, OK, you know, we're going to create like a coaching session.

1105
01:45:28,810 --> 01:45:33,410
Vineet: And some of our competitors have that where they like sell like coaching sessions for $10,000.

1106
01:45:33,730 --> 01:45:46,590
Vineet: And I've actually gone in those coaching sessions and it's just, I feel like people who are really desperate kind of go there and, you know, taking that kind of money from them just feels a bit, I don't know, not nice.

1107
01:45:46,690 --> 01:45:57,710
Vineet: So how do you like reconcile those two approaches, which is, you know, at one point, you know, you were building a software product, you were building like, you know, a builder operator model where you build something, you operate it for a long period of time,

1108
01:45:57,770 --> 01:45:59,070
Vineet: you make sure that it's good.

1109
01:45:59,430 --> 01:46:10,350
Vineet: And then a consultant kind of model where it's all about your personal brand, you're building a product, you're selling consultancies, like, how do you sort of bring those, bridge those two worlds together?

1110
01:46:10,350 --> 01:46:18,590
Vineet: Because I do think there's a lot of opportunity within my SaaS companies to have that as a business model, but I just struggle with it.

1111
01:46:18,790 --> 01:46:19,090
Daniel: Yeah.

1112
01:46:19,210 --> 01:46:19,650
Daniel: Yeah.

1113
01:46:19,710 --> 01:46:33,670
Daniel: I think there are products that are, you know, I think a lot of software as a service, for example, like the products, they're never like complete, it's like, you know, software that's always being improved and evolved.

1114
01:46:33,810 --> 01:46:39,490
Daniel: And like, you're paying for the, you know, the privilege of getting all the updates and have access to it and so on and so forth.

1115
01:46:39,630 --> 01:46:47,150
Daniel: Like, sort of, again, I have nothing against the subscription model, I pay for a lot of subscription services, and I think it makes sense.

1116
01:46:47,770 --> 01:46:51,890
Daniel: But then I think there's other kinds of products that are much more transactional.

1117
01:46:51,890 --> 01:47:05,610
Daniel: And in fact, I think if we think about economy as a whole, again, I'm not an economist, I don't know the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if like the vast majority of the economy runs on like one-time purchases for, you know, I'm using Apple AirPods right now in my ears,

1118
01:47:05,670 --> 01:47:13,490
Daniel: like to hear the conversation, I paid, I don't know, $200 for the AirPods from Apple, Apple shipped them to me, they're complete.

1119
01:47:14,270 --> 01:47:22,650
Daniel: They probably have some warranty or some time period where they can probably fix them for me if they break for free and so on and so forth.

1120
01:47:22,710 --> 01:47:24,090
Daniel: But it's a one-time transaction.

1121
01:47:24,550 --> 01:47:26,430
Daniel: Technically, it was a lifetime purchase.

1122
01:47:26,590 --> 01:47:30,050
Daniel: Now, of course, you know, I'm not expecting them to last for a lifetime.

1123
01:47:30,330 --> 01:47:33,590
Daniel: I know that they can become obsolete or break and whatever.

1124
01:47:33,950 --> 01:47:40,590
Daniel: But me as a consumer, it was part of the, you know, it's not surprising, that's part of the expectation.

1125
01:47:41,030 --> 01:47:43,610
Daniel: Same thing for like lots of information products and courses.

1126
01:47:44,290 --> 01:47:52,250
Daniel: You know, I did things, for example, I had a technical book information product that I wrote in 2019.

1127
01:47:52,870 --> 01:47:54,110
Daniel: I'm not updating it.

1128
01:47:54,190 --> 01:47:57,430
Daniel: I'm sure some of the things deserve maybe an update.

1129
01:47:58,870 --> 01:48:02,630
Daniel: But, you know, also like people are not buying it much anymore.

1130
01:48:02,830 --> 01:48:11,410
Daniel: I still, if I think that the content was like providing negative value, like misleading people, I would certainly take it off the market.

1131
01:48:11,850 --> 01:48:14,930
Daniel: But right now, you could argue that it's not covering everything.

1132
01:48:15,630 --> 01:48:17,870
Daniel: Still, you know, I'm charging $10 for this.

1133
01:48:17,950 --> 01:48:19,190
Daniel: It's like a short ebook.

1134
01:48:19,270 --> 01:48:20,470
Daniel: I still think it's valuable.

1135
01:48:20,770 --> 01:48:22,310
Daniel: Maybe it could be even more valuable.

1136
01:48:22,850 --> 01:48:25,730
Daniel: I still feel proud of each individual sale that I'm making.

1137
01:48:25,850 --> 01:48:27,730
Daniel: I don't think there's anything wrong in the content.

1138
01:48:27,870 --> 01:48:29,350
Daniel: I think people will benefit from it.

1139
01:48:30,330 --> 01:48:37,150
Daniel: Now, you know, maybe if I had infinite time, I would go and update it as well and maybe try to reposition.

1140
01:48:37,290 --> 01:48:38,910
Daniel: But, you know, it's just opportunity cost.

1141
01:48:39,190 --> 01:48:41,210
Daniel: I'm focusing on other things.

1142
01:48:41,210 --> 01:48:56,830
Daniel: So, yeah, look, I think, for example, you know, it's interesting, like a gym membership is a good example of like where lifetime access would be amazing as a consumer, but probably not great for the gym owner.

1143
01:48:58,190 --> 01:49:04,550
Daniel: Because it also, you know, creates a lot of ambiguity about what am I really getting.

1144
01:49:04,730 --> 01:49:16,790
Daniel: Now, if, say, I go to my gym and they change the equipment and like, I don't know, get rid of all the treadmills and I use the treadmill all the time, okay, you know, no harm done.

1145
01:49:16,950 --> 01:49:19,590
Daniel: I cancel and I go maybe to another gym.

1146
01:49:19,870 --> 01:49:32,050
Daniel: But if I paid lifetime with the expectation that there's always going to be a free treadmill there and suddenly they change that or they change location or whatever, then I sort of create a bit of an ambiguous problem.

1147
01:49:32,310 --> 01:49:36,850
Daniel: So, this is, you know, this consultation was probably one of those.

1148
01:49:37,050 --> 01:49:42,530
Daniel: I think this is why it's interesting and why we're speaking about this, because it feels like there is a little bit of that ambiguity.

1149
01:49:43,410 --> 01:49:56,210
Daniel: But maybe if you think it in another way, it's also, like, especially when we talk about this advisor, it's almost like an information product which I'm delivering with more high touch, high bandwidth way.

1150
01:49:56,350 --> 01:50:06,350
Daniel: Like, I could have written a book about everything I knew about, say, running businesses, marketing, about, you know, community building, all this building and so on and so forth.

1151
01:50:06,410 --> 01:50:14,350
Daniel: It could have been, like, you know, a 500-page book in paper that anyone could buy and, you know, they would learn everything, almost everything that I know.

1152
01:50:14,730 --> 01:50:17,170
Daniel: But instead, I'm delivering this in a different format.

1153
01:50:17,290 --> 01:50:24,330
Daniel: People can come to me, they book a call, they tell me a little bit about what they're doing, and that's how I apply their knowledge as best as I can to them.

1154
01:50:24,670 --> 01:50:34,010
Daniel: So, you could almost think of it almost like still as a transactional product, just delivered in a novel, interesting way.

1155
01:50:35,550 --> 01:50:53,310
Daniel: But, yeah, like, sort of, I think there's just different types of products that are just, you know, that you can charge once for, and they work well, and everyone is happy, and there are others where, you know, I don't know, like Netflix, for example,

1156
01:50:53,310 --> 01:51:08,930
Daniel: I don't think it would make sense for Netflix to charge a lifetime fee, I mean, if they were to charge me $2,000 to sign up for Netflix, probably nobody would sign up, even if it's probably lower than the lifetime fees that I'm paying.

1157
01:51:09,690 --> 01:51:12,950
Daniel: But what if I start hating the programming that they put up there?

1158
01:51:13,050 --> 01:51:14,090
Daniel: Like, it varies so much.

1159
01:51:14,110 --> 01:51:19,290
Daniel: And I think this is the same, what happens with a lot of software as a service, you're expecting the changes as well.

1160
01:51:20,730 --> 01:51:29,550
Daniel: When you pay for Slack, for example, like if you signed up 10 years ago, like it evolved a lot compared to what it is today, and you're getting all those benefits.

1161
01:51:30,370 --> 01:51:32,950
Daniel: I don't know if I'm rambling or it's a long point, but...

1162
01:51:32,950 --> 01:51:36,710
Daniel: Yeah, I mean, yeah, I guess that's fair.

1163
01:51:37,690 --> 01:51:53,750
Vineet: I think it's just a matter of, like, kind of a mentality where, you know, you just decide that your product, even though you're selling a lifetime thing, it doesn't really have a lifetime sort of usage, kind of like you said, a hardware product, you pay for it,

1164
01:51:54,150 --> 01:51:59,450
Vineet: you know it's not lifetime, but it is sort of lifetime, if that makes sense.

1165
01:51:59,610 --> 01:52:00,050
Daniel: Okay, fair enough.

1166
01:52:00,150 --> 01:52:01,750
Daniel: Yeah, the language, it's sticky.

1167
01:52:01,950 --> 01:52:02,290
Vineet: No, I agree.

1168
01:52:02,690 --> 01:52:07,870
Vineet: Again, like, I don't have the right... I guess, like, lifetime, what I've noticed is more kind of like marketing.

1169
01:52:08,130 --> 01:52:13,710
Vineet: Like, it just kind of, like, makes people pay faster when you say a lifetime rather than subscription.

1170
01:52:14,130 --> 01:52:21,770
Vineet: So I think what marketers are doing is using it as a hack, because nothing is really lifetime, you know.

1171
01:52:22,710 --> 01:52:23,350
Vineet: But I understand.

1172
01:52:23,350 --> 01:52:24,230
Daniel: No, no, you're right, you're right.

1173
01:52:24,270 --> 01:52:24,430
Daniel: Okay.

1174
01:52:25,530 --> 01:52:33,330
Daniel: I think, I'm trying to use the language, you know, pay once, that kind of thing, like, I think it's maybe a bit more precise.

1175
01:52:33,890 --> 01:52:35,390
Daniel: But no, you're right, it's true.

1176
01:52:35,830 --> 01:52:49,430
Daniel: By the way, this is, like, we see this a lot with, like, you know, ISPs and, like, your cable internet provider might tell you, you know, unlimited bandwidth or unlimited downloads and whatever.

1177
01:52:49,630 --> 01:52:59,390
Daniel: Like, all these things also, like, based on assumptions, like, that maybe all your neighbors are not using a gigabit at the same time, because otherwise it's not really unlimited.

1178
01:52:59,550 --> 01:53:01,010
Daniel: And there's probably a limit to everything.

1179
01:53:01,350 --> 01:53:07,050
Daniel: But they're probably relying on reasonable assumptions, right, to make this marketing claim.

1180
01:53:07,210 --> 01:53:10,810
Daniel: No, two, two, a fair point as well.

1181
01:53:11,470 --> 01:53:12,070
Daniel: All right.

1182
01:53:12,070 --> 01:53:12,570
Vineet: Thanks, guys.

1183
01:53:12,710 --> 01:53:12,910
Nesters: Yeah.

1184
01:53:13,530 --> 01:53:20,650
Nesters: And I guess we both, me and Daniel have been more on the info slash consulting side with our stuff.

1185
01:53:20,690 --> 01:53:22,590
Nesters: So it's, it's not the same, I guess.

1186
01:53:22,710 --> 01:53:36,230
Nesters: I guess, from a discussion point of view, it's a little bit different from the SaaS products in that sense that the mindset will be coming from more, like, transferring knowledge, which I think, makes also, it's more vague when you're offering lifetime and,

1187
01:53:36,310 --> 01:53:43,750
Nesters: like, the standard knowledge transfer, because it's like, everyone's also growing, they might change their professions entirely might focus on different things.

1188
01:53:43,890 --> 01:53:48,970
Nesters: And then the person might feel odd, like, what exactly are you offering now to me, etc.

1189
01:53:49,190 --> 01:53:59,270
Nesters: But, but I think that when you buy into lifetime, you're usually the people who buy into lifetime, I do believe are more about that inspiration and those aspirational goals they have.

1190
01:53:59,330 --> 01:54:05,230
Nesters: And that's the idea why they buy into lifetime, because they want to be like, yeah, I'll, I'll use it for my future.

1191
01:54:05,390 --> 01:54:07,690
Nesters: I might not use it now, but I'll use it for my future.

1192
01:54:07,970 --> 01:54:09,530
Nesters: And that's why they buy it.

1193
01:54:09,710 --> 01:54:12,970
Nesters: And it is obviously marketing and psychological reasoning as well.

1194
01:54:13,250 --> 01:54:16,190
Daniel: So that... Yeah, yeah, makes sense.

1195
01:54:16,470 --> 01:54:18,750
Daniel: I'm going to have to run because I have something else.

1196
01:54:18,850 --> 01:54:19,910
Daniel: I know Dennis has a question.

1197
01:54:20,750 --> 01:54:22,170
Daniel: And maybe you can answer.

1198
01:54:22,570 --> 01:54:25,630
Daniel: But Dennis, you know, you know, Dennis knows where to find me.

1199
01:54:25,870 --> 01:54:34,410
Nesters: So if it was a question, I mean, yeah, you can you can ask here, Dennis, but if Daniel needs to run Thank you for joining, obviously, today.

1200
01:54:34,670 --> 01:54:35,030
Daniel: Yeah, absolutely.

1201
01:54:35,410 --> 01:54:36,370
Daniel: Guys, thank you, everyone.

1202
01:54:36,550 --> 01:54:37,290
Daniel: We'll catch on.

1203
01:54:37,390 --> 01:54:39,190
Daniel: But yeah, I'll catch the recording.

1204
01:54:39,810 --> 01:54:40,330
Daniel: Cheers.

1205
01:54:41,990 --> 01:54:42,650
Nesters: See ya.

1206
01:54:43,670 --> 01:54:46,670
Denis: Okay, Dennis, you have a question that you want to discuss?

1207
01:54:47,710 --> 01:54:50,850
Denis: Yeah, it was sort of on the same lines as Vlad asked.

1208
01:54:51,630 --> 01:55:01,490
Denis: Like, you know, for an engineer, do you think there would be something like this that could work, you know, with synchronous help?

1209
01:55:02,470 --> 01:55:04,890
Nesters: Yeah, I think it's much harder to do.

1210
01:55:05,070 --> 01:55:14,170
Nesters: I think, as we talked about, it has to be that more high level advisory role of, of maybe consulting based on like, what kind of solution?

1211
01:55:14,890 --> 01:55:28,750
Nesters: I can imagine, like, for security, architecture, etc, you can obviously consult people, and maybe they need help once every month, or once every couple months, they might need some might have a question about how to proceed.

1212
01:55:29,390 --> 01:55:31,830
Nesters: I think that those are the positions.

1213
01:55:32,050 --> 01:55:46,930
Nesters: But if you think about that you want to be like, engaged in someone's like, like just in someone's code, and you're just diving into detail, I think it's not a good opportunity, because you'll end up having more calls than you would expect.

1214
01:55:46,930 --> 01:55:57,150
Nesters: And the people will just treat you as someone who's like, basically, like just a normal consultant who's just helping you solve problems and not not as much an advisor.

1215
01:55:57,670 --> 01:56:01,930
Nesters: I think that's that mentality shift, obviously, needs to be justified.

1216
01:56:02,210 --> 01:56:08,590
Nesters: Yeah, that so you need to position yourself that way that you'll be only helping with like this high level problems.

1217
01:56:08,590 --> 01:56:22,490
Nesters: And you'll be only for example, I can imagine like for my own experience, and because I have some experience, I mean, quite a lot of experience in development, but not as much lately, that I would often be helping agencies onboard clients.

1218
01:56:22,990 --> 01:56:34,730
Nesters: And so there'll be, let's say ecommerce agency, they have a new project, they, they have like these specific problems, and I would basically helping to onboard them because I would be helping with a high level solution and what to do.

1219
01:56:34,990 --> 01:56:41,650
Nesters: And I would also be sometimes interacting with their like potential client and basically trying to understand what their problem is.

1220
01:56:41,790 --> 01:56:46,930
Nesters: And so I can actually, conceptually, on my end already understand what the solution might be.

1221
01:56:47,370 --> 01:57:01,850
Nesters: And those would come to me, usually, once every couple months, for example, and that kind of client where they only need that help, occasionally, could be, for example, decent for this type of model as well.

1222
01:57:02,010 --> 01:57:15,530
Nesters: And I think that comes into that can be other consultants that can be other people that are maybe less experienced than you, but offer, for example, similar service, you're just a mentor to them, and they just come to you every couple months, let's say,

1223
01:57:15,590 --> 01:57:27,490
Nesters: and they need a little bit of to bounce their ideas around, for example, for a new client, and there's like this huge project, for example, developed for security or architecture of the project, and they just come to you and you just discuss those things.

1224
01:57:27,670 --> 01:57:35,610
Nesters: And you don't hear from them again about that project, maybe ever, you know, like that type of stuff.

1225
01:57:35,730 --> 01:57:45,690
Nesters: I think that's, that's the best angle I can come up in terms of like development side of is that high level advisory role.

1226
01:57:47,350 --> 01:58:06,410
Denis: Yeah, and I've seen this model work for some, like, you could call that engineering as well, like the design, you know, website design, where, you know, really good designers slash engineer, like, you know, Charlie Coppinger, for example, he could, you know,

1227
01:58:06,470 --> 01:58:16,450
Denis: review your design in like an hour or two, and, you know, and tweak it, and like, that's it, like, the service is done.

1228
01:58:17,290 --> 01:58:37,470
Denis: So, I think in cases like that, or maybe someone is really good, you know, with AI and prototyping using that, and, you know, if someone needs help with quick prototyping a website, you know, design plus, plus kind of initial implementation, that could also be done synchronously.

1229
01:58:37,630 --> 01:58:45,430
Denis: And it's, you know, it can be very highly interactive, like, it, you know, often needs to be interactive to get feedback.

1230
01:58:45,750 --> 01:58:49,370
Denis: And, and I feel like that, that would work pretty well.

1231
01:58:49,970 --> 01:58:57,810
Nesters: I just think you would want to charge a one time fee at a lot of cases there, maybe annual for some of them.

1232
01:58:57,930 --> 01:59:05,490
Nesters: But if, if there's like this one type product, one time prototype, there's a chance that person only will need that one prototype or two prototypes.

1233
01:59:05,690 --> 01:59:11,170
Nesters: I think it's, it's just more, in the end, it might be more lucrative for you to actually charge a one time fee.

1234
01:59:11,330 --> 01:59:17,930
Nesters: Because what happens is that if you provide good service with that one time fee, is that you actually potentially get their recommendation.

1235
01:59:18,870 --> 01:59:23,570
Nesters: And you basically your referral, the referral will start to come in, because you help those people.

1236
01:59:23,850 --> 01:59:36,290
Nesters: But with a lifetime offer, that I noticed, for example, someone actually made fun of that me, I only had one review on my lifetime offer, that time when we had like SEO arguments on the on X.

1237
01:59:36,790 --> 01:59:40,170
Nesters: And it was like, oh, you only have one review, how come you have that income for that?

1238
01:59:40,410 --> 01:59:44,050
Nesters: But the thing is, how can someone review something that's lifetime, right?

1239
01:59:44,110 --> 01:59:48,670
Nesters: In a way, like, it's hard to review, because you have never, you never arrive at the finish line.

1240
01:59:49,130 --> 01:59:49,130
Yeah.

1241
01:59:49,670 --> 01:59:49,890
Nesters: Yeah.

1242
01:59:49,890 --> 01:59:56,090
Nesters: So there's also a little bit, I think, like that issue with that recommendation there as well.

1243
01:59:57,190 --> 02:00:10,410
Nesters: And for example, because then I went to look at Daniel's product, and Daniel has only two reviews, which one of them is yours, by the way, Daniel has only two reviews out of those 150 clients, and those two five star reviews, like reviews left.

1244
02:00:11,090 --> 02:00:20,190
Nesters: So you could like see that this kind of offer doesn't get as many reviews and feedback that way, because like the lifetime never ends, basically.

1245
02:00:20,630 --> 02:00:38,310
Nesters: So I think if you want to like actually maximize that idea of spreading the word for yourself, I would say it's actually better to go with one time, for example, or some kind of that kind of offer where it's like, maybe not monthly, but like one time fee,

1246
02:00:38,490 --> 02:00:51,150
Nesters: or maybe it's annual that you're actually more likely to get people in the funnel and also more likely maybe you also get them, that they'll be like, oh my god, you solved my problem so easily, and they just recommend you to someone else.

1247
02:00:51,410 --> 02:00:59,750
Nesters: I think it just works better that way, if you want to focus on like growing your client base.

1248
02:01:02,410 --> 02:01:02,930
Denis: Thanks.

1249
02:01:03,710 --> 02:01:07,670
Nesters: Yeah, and there's like 17 people still here.

1250
02:01:07,810 --> 02:01:10,110
Nesters: Anyone has questions, you can definitely ask.

1251
02:01:10,870 --> 02:01:14,830
Nesters: Anyone who also wants to listen to other spaces, we have two more of them.

1252
02:01:14,930 --> 02:01:25,530
Nesters: One was with actually a person who made almost 800k in Gumroad sales by selling actually a digital product.

1253
02:01:26,130 --> 02:01:27,610
Nesters: Yeah, that was the last space, Dennis.

1254
02:01:28,410 --> 02:01:31,130
Nesters: They're planning the digital product and also courses.

1255
02:01:31,990 --> 02:01:38,530
Nesters: And then we have another space, which was actually mostly with Daniel and some of our resident experts in Smallbits community.

1256
02:01:38,770 --> 02:01:47,210
Nesters: And that was two weeks ago, and that was also a lot about the Gumroad sale and how Daniel sold his community for 3.6 million.

1257
02:01:47,890 --> 02:01:56,410
Nesters: Technically 1.8 cash plus stock options, which are worth 1.8 million at the current time, but could be worth more, could be worth less.

1258
02:01:57,090 --> 02:01:59,810
Nesters: And those spaces are available now.

1259
02:01:59,950 --> 02:02:03,270
Nesters: I put them in one place, which is theweeklyyap.com.

1260
02:02:03,550 --> 02:02:10,130
Nesters: So now there's one place where you can actually listen to the previous conversations and the spaces we had, so it doesn't get lost.

1261
02:02:11,390 --> 02:02:24,350
Nesters: It will also be updated later because I need to move them off of X, so I'll be setting them as audio or maybe add some video elements with like the captions, transcribed version.

1262
02:02:25,470 --> 02:02:32,350
Nesters: So that will be available on the theweeklyyap.com, so you can actually go there and listen to the other spaces as well.

1263
02:02:33,910 --> 02:02:38,230
Nesters: Yeah, if anyone has any other questions or etc, so you can still ask.

1264
02:02:39,070 --> 02:02:40,990
Nesters: We can be around for a couple more minutes.

1265
02:02:46,110 --> 02:02:50,010
Nesters: Otherwise, we'll probably be able to wrap it up.

1266
02:02:55,780 --> 02:02:58,320
Nesters: Unless, Victor, you have another question or Vlad?

1267
02:03:00,260 --> 02:03:01,520
Vlad: I'm happy to talk.

1268
02:03:01,640 --> 02:03:06,280
Vlad: I just, I missed most of the app, so I don't really want to repeat anything you said.

1269
02:03:06,460 --> 02:03:07,540
Vlad: I'll listen to the recording.

1270
02:03:07,820 --> 02:03:26,580
Vlad: I was just thinking how, I guess, the higher level you are, the longer your time horizon you can offer for these consultations, and the lower level you are, like an engineer, you will, I guess, you want to go for one time or the annual model or even a productized service.

1271
02:03:27,540 --> 02:03:32,260
Vlad: There was a really interesting service that a colleague of mine offered back in the day.

1272
02:03:32,400 --> 02:03:35,360
Vlad: He was specializing in motion design.

1273
02:03:36,060 --> 02:03:41,420
Vlad: So if you gave him a logo of your company, he would animate it.

1274
02:03:42,460 --> 02:03:46,760
Vlad: And so this is great for YouTube videos or even for the website itself.

1275
02:03:47,000 --> 02:03:50,400
Vlad: And he wanted to offer that as a productized service.

1276
02:03:50,400 --> 02:03:53,780
Vlad: You pay, let's say, $300 and you get it within three days.

1277
02:03:55,720 --> 02:04:02,400
Vlad: So that was, it's a very broad spectrum of the services you can provide.

1278
02:04:02,660 --> 02:04:13,620
Vlad: And some of them work as a one-time, some of them work as a annual, and this new thing I really like, the unlimited lifetime.

1279
02:04:14,260 --> 02:04:20,040
Vlad: I just can't think of how to apply that with a lower level skill.

1280
02:04:21,520 --> 02:04:33,440
Nesters: Yeah, I think you need, like, obviously you require at least a couple years, usually, of experience in some topic to truly be able to nail that unlimited lifetime.

1281
02:04:33,660 --> 02:04:45,760
Nesters: And also know what you can offer as unlimited lifetime, where you know that the people who will come to you will most likely not come frequently, and you're not going to be diving into minor details.

1282
02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:53,580
Nesters: So obviously, as you spoke about the page performance, it is problematic because you can, like, really dive deep into it.

1283
02:04:53,780 --> 02:04:58,740
Nesters: And there's, like, you make some update to the website, and suddenly your performance can go bad again.

1284
02:04:58,900 --> 02:05:03,140
Nesters: And then they might be booking another call because their, like, lighthouse looks bad.

1285
02:05:03,520 --> 02:05:08,240
Nesters: Although I generally would say you just focus on the Core Web Vitals assessment.

1286
02:05:08,400 --> 02:05:20,180
Nesters: And if it's passing, just forget about the rest most of the time, unless there's, like, really visually visible performance issues that are sometimes not even related to how slow the website is.

1287
02:05:20,280 --> 02:05:22,880
Nesters: Sometimes those used to be just visual elements.

1288
02:05:23,060 --> 02:05:24,000
Nesters: That used to be a problem.

1289
02:05:24,120 --> 02:05:26,760
Nesters: There was, like, animations added on top of it.

1290
02:05:26,800 --> 02:05:30,360
Nesters: So it made the site look slower than it is.

1291
02:05:30,440 --> 02:05:32,580
Nesters: Like, if you remove the animations, it actually looks fast.

1292
02:05:34,500 --> 02:05:38,380
Nesters: So yeah, I think there's a problem with that.

1293
02:05:38,460 --> 02:05:51,840
Nesters: But as I mentioned, is that if your clients, for example, are people on a similar level as you, but maybe a little bit lower, or on a similar level, and they just want to get someone else's opinion, then you can actually offer service to those people.

1294
02:05:52,060 --> 02:06:04,740
Nesters: Like, in terms of, like, some kind of page speed optimization, it could be actually that there's an, like, agency who just needs someone to speak to every now and then when they get a project that's, like, this huge optimization project.

1295
02:06:04,760 --> 02:06:11,200
Nesters: And they just want your opinion on how to proceed, what to look at, and they just discuss it with you, for example.

1296
02:06:11,600 --> 02:06:18,260
Nesters: Like, in a way, maybe sometimes it even works out as an offer to an agency, not just an individual.

1297
02:06:18,440 --> 02:06:31,260
Nesters: I know Daniel said that he would like to only work with individuals, but there might be an angle where you are that high-level consultant that just comes in when an agency lands a new client, and you could offer it as on an annual or lifetime basis.

1298
02:06:34,420 --> 02:06:35,520
Vlad: Yeah, I like that.

1299
02:06:36,120 --> 02:06:45,260
Vlad: You know, what's interesting about performance specifically is I saw a post recently, the person was asking, how can I optimize my website?

1300
02:06:45,960 --> 02:06:47,900
Vlad: It's a very low score.

1301
02:06:48,240 --> 02:07:15,440
Vlad: And there were dozens of opinions that were suggesting this plugin and that plugin, and nobody suggested the most fundamental thing, which one person suggested changing the format of the image to WebP or AVIF or one of these newer formats, and zero people had suggested using the image source set attribute or one of these that responsibly load the smallest image.

1302
02:07:16,300 --> 02:07:24,240
Vlad: So it was really interesting to see that even with the most modern technology, most people don't know the fundamentals.

1303
02:07:26,060 --> 02:07:43,100
Vlad: So I like the idea of talking to someone at an equal level of you or slightly below you, not necessarily a large difference of skill levels, but then you know things that they don't know, and they know things that you don't know.

1304
02:07:43,580 --> 02:07:55,140
Vlad: For example, I don't know the latest and greatest of Next.js or even React 19, but I do know a lot of 1999-level HTML.

1305
02:07:56,040 --> 02:07:57,020
Vlad: That's when I started.

1306
02:07:58,720 --> 02:08:01,740
Nesters: Yeah, I think there's definitely that value.

1307
02:08:02,100 --> 02:08:05,080
Nesters: I think that's one angle you could look at.

1308
02:08:05,200 --> 02:08:11,560
Nesters: When you have a large audience, obviously, there's a wider net you throw, and you can get all kinds of people.

1309
02:08:11,700 --> 02:08:14,140
Nesters: That's how Daniel got a wide variety of people.

1310
02:08:14,400 --> 02:08:21,760
Nesters: And because he also recommended me once, because he said that he's my customer, so a lot of people signed up.

1311
02:08:21,800 --> 02:08:24,440
Nesters: I also got experience, a wide variety of people.

1312
02:08:24,640 --> 02:08:37,860
Nesters: I think if I only offered this offer on my own, I think those people who signed up and have signed up separately have mostly been specifically that they felt like they need help with SEO or e-commerce, for example.

1313
02:08:38,060 --> 02:08:45,900
Nesters: So they were more specific towards what they maybe know me for, what they feel like I know better.

1314
02:08:46,080 --> 02:08:52,800
Nesters: But the other ones actually were more... I think they were also inspirational and more random.

1315
02:08:53,460 --> 02:08:54,860
Nesters: So there's definitely that.

1316
02:08:56,280 --> 02:09:00,460
Nesters: I guess for an average person, it will be more likely that they offer this offer.

1317
02:09:00,560 --> 02:09:07,160
Nesters: And if they don't have a large audience, they will most likely be getting people who just know you for something.

1318
02:09:07,340 --> 02:09:10,000
Nesters: I know that, for example, there's multiple people who offered this.

1319
02:09:10,000 --> 02:09:12,020
Nesters: Francesco was one of them with ads.

1320
02:09:13,720 --> 02:09:22,140
Nesters: Then there's also the Florent Pop, who has like, I believe, 180,000 followers on X.

1321
02:09:22,560 --> 02:09:24,120
Nesters: And he also has a YouTube channel.

1322
02:09:24,320 --> 02:09:29,440
Nesters: So he was like, I offered this help, and you can ask me questions about how to do a YouTube channel, etc.

1323
02:09:29,640 --> 02:09:31,440
Nesters: And he also made this offer.

1324
02:09:31,580 --> 02:09:38,100
Nesters: And I believe around 10 or less people signed up for his offer, although he had a big audience.

1325
02:09:38,280 --> 02:09:42,520
Nesters: But I guess I was also... the offer maybe was offered in a way where it didn't make...

1326
02:09:43,840 --> 02:09:49,760
Nesters: the audience didn't make as much sense, because he's mostly known about the developer audience.

1327
02:09:49,920 --> 02:09:53,860
Nesters: And I think his offer was closer to like, you could help with a YouTube channel, etc.

1328
02:09:53,960 --> 02:09:54,740
Nesters: And all that stuff.

1329
02:09:54,960 --> 02:09:58,400
Nesters: So I think it only connected with a subset of his audience.

1330
02:09:59,160 --> 02:10:02,340
Nesters: That was my feel, based on what I saw about the offer.

1331
02:10:03,240 --> 02:10:10,820
Nesters: Then there was another... there was Dylan, who was also offering some type of life coach style help, I think.

1332
02:10:10,920 --> 02:10:12,980
Nesters: There were multiple topics he was also covering.

1333
02:10:14,860 --> 02:10:15,940
Nesters: Who else was offering?

1334
02:10:15,960 --> 02:10:23,260
Nesters: There were a few more people, except Daniel, who were also offering this service, inspired by Daniel.

1335
02:10:24,380 --> 02:10:30,740
Vlad: Nestor, did you already talk about before about the specifics of how you helped clients?

1336
02:10:30,940 --> 02:10:34,460
Vlad: I know you do SEO, but I don't really know what that involves.

1337
02:10:36,020 --> 02:10:48,180
Nesters: Yeah, I talked about that on a high... for the lifetime offers specifically, it's usually trying to plan them on the higher level.

1338
02:10:48,440 --> 02:10:51,100
Nesters: Like, what are we going to do with this app, etc.

1339
02:10:51,300 --> 02:10:54,020
Nesters: Like, are we focusing on SEO?

1340
02:10:54,360 --> 02:11:00,260
Nesters: Are we focusing maybe like growing on like through like some kind of communities, like on subreddits, etc.

1341
02:11:00,400 --> 02:11:06,720
Nesters: So yeah, I've been actually reaching out even sometimes in not the most comfortable topics for me.

1342
02:11:07,000 --> 02:11:21,080
Nesters: And that's, I guess, also a gross area with this kind of offer is that you kind of combine both which you're comfortable with, what maybe the client is comfortable with, and you're kind of trying to bridge that gap and like provide that additional context and angle for them.

1343
02:11:21,220 --> 02:11:32,320
Nesters: I think that's because you are an advisor role, you're not supposed to know everything, you're supposed to be able to provide additional points of knowledge and perspective to them.

1344
02:11:32,440 --> 02:11:44,960
Nesters: I think that's what's... I think that's one part of the missing puzzle is that because you're not solving like this small low-level problems, you're actually more of a... you're just a mentor, basically.

1345
02:11:45,120 --> 02:11:53,040
Nesters: So you are more focused on providing additional insights, additional feedback to them so they can figure it out too.

1346
02:11:53,220 --> 02:12:01,120
Nesters: And Francesco said that he's more like a teacher who basically gives this framework to people.

1347
02:12:01,220 --> 02:12:10,360
Nesters: And I think with ads, that actually works very well because a lot of people are very... let's say in this space, let's say in the space, like there's a lot of people who have never run ads.

1348
02:12:10,580 --> 02:12:13,980
Nesters: So even Daniel, for example, said like he has not tried ads yet.

1349
02:12:14,640 --> 02:12:17,140
Nesters: So a lot of people don't try ads.

1350
02:12:17,540 --> 02:12:25,400
Nesters: So for Francesco, it makes sense that he's offering like this kind of teacher framework to teach everything they know so they can solve the problem for themselves.

1351
02:12:26,220 --> 02:12:28,880
Nesters: And for me, it's also sometimes it's like that with SEO.

1352
02:12:29,240 --> 02:12:37,360
Nesters: But with some other topics, I'm mostly just there as a person to bounce some ideas around and what I can offer from my perspective and experience.

1353
02:12:37,660 --> 02:12:50,480
Nesters: And I just cover those gaps, let's say, and give them the... give them like... for example, Daniel, like one of my calls Daniel also mentioned was before he made the decision to sell to Soheil, I had a call with him.

1354
02:12:50,480 --> 02:12:57,700
Nesters: And I was... I'm not an expert in selling communities, for example, as I am an active member of the community he was selling.

1355
02:12:57,840 --> 02:13:00,180
Nesters: So that was the feedback I could provide very well.

1356
02:13:00,380 --> 02:13:15,800
Nesters: But I was not a person who has experience with selling communities or like that kind of deals in terms of like, not just like cash and equity, like selling like in that way and how you're going to stay within the company for X amount of years.

1357
02:13:15,820 --> 02:13:19,700
Nesters: I even said like, are you sure you want to stay for those five years?

1358
02:13:19,980 --> 02:13:24,300
Nesters: Because from my personal perspective, I would not want to stay for five years like that.

1359
02:13:24,560 --> 02:13:25,760
Nesters: I wouldn't want to stay in the community.

1360
02:13:25,900 --> 02:13:31,580
Nesters: I wouldn't want to have the obligation that I feel like I need to be tied down to five years, for example.

1361
02:13:31,720 --> 02:13:32,380
Nesters: That's just...

1362
02:13:32,380 --> 02:13:39,220
Nesters: and for him, he made sense because, for example, Daniel always thinks of things that he would like to do things for a lifetime.

1363
02:13:39,480 --> 02:13:52,020
Nesters: So one thing about his idea of this lifetime offer is that Daniel approaches it from a perspective that whatever he's doing, he starts doing because he believes he could do it for a lifetime.

1364
02:13:52,460 --> 02:13:54,240
Nesters: That's his philosophy on that.

1365
02:13:55,260 --> 02:14:08,820
Nesters: So in a way, it makes sense that he's actually doing this type of offer himself because he's comfortable that if they will need help, he will just talk to them and his commitment to that lifetime exists in this way.

1366
02:14:10,560 --> 02:14:19,140
Nesters: So yeah, when we're looking at Daniel's model, we're actually looking at his life philosophy as well when he creates his products.

1367
02:14:20,320 --> 02:14:21,580
Vlad: Yeah, it's really exciting.

1368
02:14:21,940 --> 02:14:26,220
Vlad: I love how it makes me think in a very different way.

1369
02:14:26,400 --> 02:14:27,480
Vlad: It's breaking my brain.

1370
02:14:27,640 --> 02:14:28,060
Vlad: I love it.

1371
02:14:28,240 --> 02:14:32,960
Vlad: I hope in a few years, I can offer something in that direction.

1372
02:14:34,320 --> 02:14:37,300
Nesters: Yeah, I think it's mostly for you, probably.

1373
02:14:37,380 --> 02:14:41,820
Nesters: Probably you already have quite a lot of experience in some topics where you could offer something similar.

1374
02:14:42,020 --> 02:14:47,940
Nesters: It's just that you probably need to figure out what that audience for you will be that you can address with this offer.

1375
02:14:48,640 --> 02:15:07,860
Nesters: And yes, if you start thinking about maximizing revenue, it might sound like it's actually better to offer some one-time, more like one-time payment, immediate offer, et cetera, like audit or like some kind of small package of consultancy calls.

1376
02:15:08,240 --> 02:15:13,240
Nesters: Maybe like Francesco said, his four consultation package is the most sold.

1377
02:15:13,580 --> 02:15:17,180
Nesters: And if you're focusing on page performance, for example, it might actually make sense.

1378
02:15:17,320 --> 02:15:19,480
Nesters: You'd be like, oh, yeah, I'm selling you this package of four calls.

1379
02:15:19,580 --> 02:15:21,040
Nesters: We can go through this whole process.

1380
02:15:21,480 --> 02:15:24,360
Nesters: And you know that maybe they actually don't book more than two calls.

1381
02:15:25,320 --> 02:15:26,640
Nesters: But you sold the four calls.

1382
02:15:26,740 --> 02:15:30,520
Nesters: So they felt comfortable that they'll have you available.

1383
02:15:30,620 --> 02:15:50,060
Nesters: Because it's also about availability, as we discussed, the scarcity and the availability is important that people sometimes buy into larger packages, including lifetime, because they want to make sure they reserve that spot, that they have access to the same person who can walk them through all those issues and problems,

1384
02:15:50,260 --> 02:15:52,180
Nesters: and they feel like they can trust them enough.

1385
02:15:52,560 --> 02:15:58,340
Nesters: So yeah, it's great that actually it's helping people and it's breaking your brain.

1386
02:15:58,740 --> 02:16:03,680
Nesters: I mean, yeah, because initially, yeah, before I started, it also broke my brain as well.

1387
02:16:03,800 --> 02:16:10,700
Nesters: I didn't believe that makes sense what Daniel started, but he proved me and a lot of us wrong.

1388
02:16:16,480 --> 02:16:17,560
Wiktor: I have a question.

1389
02:16:21,500 --> 02:16:25,940
Wiktor: That's a question I like to ask myself when I listen to podcasts and stuff.

1390
02:16:26,460 --> 02:16:29,940
Wiktor: What did you take out of this pre-app, Nestor?

1391
02:16:30,500 --> 02:16:34,560
Wiktor: What are your key points that you take with you?

1392
02:16:35,440 --> 02:16:36,140
Nesters: Of what?

1393
02:16:36,540 --> 02:16:36,780
Nesters: Sorry?

1394
02:16:37,300 --> 02:16:41,340
Wiktor: Of the app, of the conversation that we had, like main points.

1395
02:16:41,480 --> 02:16:42,240
Wiktor: What did you learn?

1396
02:16:44,280 --> 02:16:47,420
Nesters: Oh, it's a good question.

1397
02:16:47,720 --> 02:17:03,120
Nesters: No, I learned about... It's funny for me, because for me, almost all the points and questions I heard, I have felt them myself in a way, and I have already talked with them about with Daniel in many ways.

1398
02:17:03,300 --> 02:17:15,920
Nesters: So for me, it's funny that I mostly learned that people actually are interested in the topic, because for the most of the conversation, we had approximately 35 to 40, 30 to 40 at least, people listening.

1399
02:17:16,100 --> 02:17:17,080
Nesters: So people are interested.

1400
02:17:17,080 --> 02:17:25,480
Nesters: But I actually have heard most of the questions people ask in one way or another before already, and I've felt them and I've thought about them before.

1401
02:17:26,200 --> 02:17:45,320
Nesters: So for me, this conversation was mostly just reflecting and being amused about... For example, I realized that people don't think about that they could actually not charge people, like Hassan's question was, that they could just authorize a fee and then have the initial call and then try to charge the card.

1402
02:17:46,060 --> 02:17:52,360
Nesters: Now, people, because they authorize the payment, they usually already feel like they have paid, because the money is reserved on their card.

1403
02:17:52,480 --> 02:17:55,240
Nesters: So you can't exactly spend the same amount of money.

1404
02:17:55,800 --> 02:18:06,000
Nesters: There are ways, yeah, you could cancel and there's some aspects, but usually you actually have that money reserved on your card and you feel like, okay, it's going to go through and it's going to be charged.

1405
02:18:06,320 --> 02:18:08,740
Nesters: You don't look at it as your money anymore.

1406
02:18:09,100 --> 02:18:24,900
Nesters: So I would say that was one thing I was like, wow, people actually don't think that they can just authorize, because in e-commerce it's pretty common that especially for some larger payments, you sometimes authorize first, especially when those stores who start dealing with fraud,

1407
02:18:25,100 --> 02:18:28,860
Nesters: they often run some kind of risk analysis, whether that's automated or not.

1408
02:18:29,480 --> 02:18:34,060
Nesters: But they run that risk analysis before they charge.

1409
02:18:35,280 --> 02:18:36,800
Nesters: It might even be an automated process.

1410
02:18:37,020 --> 02:18:49,840
Nesters: There's a risk assessment after authorization, and then they charge or they decline the payment and refund it, so they don't need to deal with the fee or any refunds, chargebacks, etc., because there was a stolen credit card, for example.

1411
02:18:50,480 --> 02:18:55,760
Nesters: So that's one thing I was like, people, for example, not realizing they could work around some things.

1412
02:18:56,360 --> 02:18:57,980
Nesters: Another thing, I guess, was the...

1413
02:19:01,000 --> 02:19:08,200
Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I think initially, in the initial conversation, there were some light bulb moments for me a little bit, too, how I felt about it.

1414
02:19:08,200 --> 02:19:14,300
Nesters: But most of the questions, honestly, I had either had in my head or I already had discussed previously.

1415
02:19:14,540 --> 02:19:17,300
Nesters: So I didn't learn as much, I guess.

1416
02:19:17,540 --> 02:19:19,460
Nesters: Hopefully, everyone else here did.

1417
02:19:20,620 --> 02:19:28,340
Nesters: But there was some thought-provoking examples for me as well.

1418
02:19:30,300 --> 02:19:36,620
Nesters: It's harder for me to say that I learned the most because I was supposed to also share together with Daniel the conversation we had.

1419
02:19:37,400 --> 02:19:41,680
Nesters: It will make sense more asked to you, like, what did you learn?

1420
02:19:41,840 --> 02:19:45,500
Nesters: What do you feel like makes the most sense that you took away from it?

1421
02:19:46,220 --> 02:19:47,580
Wiktor: I knew about that question.

1422
02:19:47,780 --> 02:19:48,440
Wiktor: I knew you'd do that.

1423
02:19:49,940 --> 02:20:06,320
Wiktor: So, I mean, I would say the interesting part was, I did not think... because on one side, you know, when we present offers, we kind of expect to, like, we tailor the offer to the market.

1424
02:20:06,400 --> 02:20:15,900
Wiktor: But also with offers, it happens in the opposite direction, that the offer trains kind of the recipient of the offer.

1425
02:20:16,320 --> 02:20:27,120
Wiktor: What I mean is that, you know, Daniel mentioned that a lot of, I don't know if it was you or Daniel, that when a client buys this offer, they think of it in the long term.

1426
02:20:27,220 --> 02:20:28,440
Wiktor: You know, they don't think about it.

1427
02:20:28,520 --> 02:20:35,600
Wiktor: Okay, I can squeeze in, like, seven calls a week, kind of maximizing the offer.

1428
02:20:35,680 --> 02:20:42,080
Wiktor: But they think, like, okay, this is just, like, support for me throughout life, throughout my, like, experience.

1429
02:20:43,740 --> 02:20:53,820
Wiktor: And I guess it's also the lesson was that, like, there's not a lot, like, lifetime deals feel scary, but, like, they aren't.

1430
02:20:53,900 --> 02:20:56,720
Wiktor: And it's, like, you can always talk things out.

1431
02:20:56,800 --> 02:20:59,900
Wiktor: And if someone's abusing it, like, you can find a way out.

1432
02:21:00,660 --> 02:21:01,020
Wiktor: And, like...

1433
02:21:01,020 --> 02:21:03,960
Wiktor: You can always just refund and stop talking to them.

1434
02:21:04,180 --> 02:21:04,760
Wiktor: Yeah, just refund.

1435
02:21:05,040 --> 02:21:05,760
Wiktor: Yeah, exactly.

1436
02:21:06,340 --> 02:21:11,340
Nesters: The main loss will be the amount of calls, like, the time you spent previously is the main loss.

1437
02:21:11,420 --> 02:21:17,800
Nesters: The fees on that context, in that context, would even be much lower opportunity cost than the hours you spend.

1438
02:21:18,120 --> 02:21:25,520
Nesters: So if you are careful and early enough, you talk it through, you don't waste time, like, oh, maybe it gets better.

1439
02:21:25,640 --> 02:21:30,700
Nesters: No, you just start talking, start guiding them that, like, yeah, yeah, let's talk about higher level concepts.

1440
02:21:35,260 --> 02:21:37,780
Nesters: Let's I needed to talk about like that.

1441
02:21:37,900 --> 02:21:45,960
Nesters: And they did generally, you know, like, resolve to that, like, okay, yeah, I'm not gonna bother with the small things or emails or messages.

1442
02:21:46,420 --> 02:21:49,220
Nesters: I'm just gonna talk it on the call, talk it through on the call.

1443
02:21:49,720 --> 02:22:06,360
Wiktor: Yeah, also one fun thing I noticed was, like, the similarities to fractional reserve banking, when it comes, like, Daniel has a X amount of time, you know, and he, like, gives it out, like a loan, you know, like a bank gives a loan to someone with the money that someone put in.

1444
02:22:07,040 --> 02:22:08,640
Wiktor: So he's, like, kind of giving out time.

1445
02:22:08,860 --> 02:22:17,440
Wiktor: And if everybody started asking for that lifetime time, you know, then he will have a quote unquote bank run, because he wouldn't have enough time.

1446
02:22:17,860 --> 02:22:30,520
Wiktor: It's kind of nice to see how he, like, balanced it, like, okay, I can sign up this many people, because I know this many people, like the average consumer of this offer those X calls in X time.

1447
02:22:31,240 --> 02:22:32,640
Wiktor: And it's kind of cool.

1448
02:22:34,980 --> 02:22:38,420
Nesters: Yeah, I find your comparisons usually to be on the next level.

1449
02:22:39,020 --> 02:22:41,120
Nesters: I mean, is there a one for Greek emperors?

1450
02:22:43,360 --> 02:22:44,820
Wiktor: Oh, I don't know.

1451
02:22:47,260 --> 02:22:50,000
Nesters: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

1452
02:22:50,000 --> 02:22:51,200
Nesters: You don't need to come up with one.

1453
02:22:51,460 --> 02:22:59,160
Nesters: But yeah, yeah, you're just I just find it funny that you They usually come up with some really interesting comparisons.

1454
02:23:01,080 --> 02:23:11,600
Nesters: But yeah, so one thing I think what I discovered, which Daniel did not discover, was because I had the split between 510 consultation packages and that lifetime offer.

1455
02:23:12,240 --> 02:23:17,700
Nesters: So one was even anchoring of the price because I had the cheap offer and then the lifetime for like that.

1456
02:23:18,140 --> 02:23:24,160
Nesters: And they will be like, oh, so five calls for like a couple of hundred and then let's say like 2.5k for lifetime.

1457
02:23:24,660 --> 02:23:30,100
Nesters: Well, you'd be like, oh, so you feel like you're going to exploit like use like 50 calls or something with lifetime.

1458
02:23:30,240 --> 02:23:40,760
Nesters: But it was just completely different audiences that sign up because as I mentioned, the 5 to 10 consultations, those are urgent needs for people when you book the lifetime.

1459
02:23:41,000 --> 02:23:50,520
Nesters: And honestly, in terms of instead of five, I could sell a single consultation for most of those people and they probably would not need the repeat all again.

1460
02:23:50,520 --> 02:23:58,440
Nesters: But I could still manage to squeeze in that 5 to 10 consultation package at a little bit higher price and get an hourly rate higher for myself as well.

1461
02:23:58,580 --> 02:24:03,860
Nesters: So there's a little bit of human psychology and marketing involved in that, how you position it.

1462
02:24:04,500 --> 02:24:14,180
Nesters: But people who sign up for lifetime were almost always more thinking about in a bigger picture about their upcoming product and hoping to launch it, etc.

1463
02:24:14,420 --> 02:24:19,160
Nesters: And it was not it was more vague and not as clear what they're exactly wanting to get done.

1464
02:24:19,830 --> 02:24:25,900
Nesters: And I think they usually just need reassurance and maybe some motivation that everything's going well and they can do this.

1465
02:24:26,500 --> 02:24:31,040
Nesters: And I think they just pay for that assurance at a pretty high price.

1466
02:24:31,780 --> 02:24:33,600
Nesters: I think that's like one of those things.

1467
02:24:34,640 --> 02:24:39,620
Nesters: And that Daniel could not discover that because he did not have those smaller packages.

1468
02:24:39,980 --> 02:24:46,620
Nesters: But I noticed that there's a huge split between like what type of profile of customer you get between the two.

1469
02:24:46,620 --> 02:25:01,100
Nesters: And that also makes the lifetime successful in that regard that, for example, Daniel mentioned average three calls per person, which means he's making approximately like seven to eight hundred dollars per customer right now.

1470
02:25:01,400 --> 02:25:02,780
Nesters: Obviously going to go down a bit.

1471
02:25:02,840 --> 02:25:05,460
Nesters: That's why I mentioned 500 plus in the title of the space.

1472
02:25:05,640 --> 02:25:13,780
Nesters: But for me personally, the lifetime offer currently is around 1000 per hour, I would say, maybe higher.

1473
02:25:13,780 --> 02:25:22,520
Nesters: Might even be higher, by the way, still, but it's around 1000 dollars an hour based on what I've sold on those and how many calls they've booked.

1474
02:25:26,160 --> 02:25:26,760
Nesters: Yeah, makes sense.

1475
02:25:26,900 --> 02:25:27,220
Nesters: Thank you.

1476
02:25:30,900 --> 02:25:39,020
Nesters: So, yeah, in that hourly rate concept, I would say if you manage to sell that offer, it can potentially be very valuable.

1477
02:25:39,360 --> 02:25:43,640
Nesters: And obviously people sometimes feel like it feels bad to take other people's money, etc.

1478
02:25:43,640 --> 02:25:49,020
Nesters: But if they get the value from it, then it's worth the money to them.

1479
02:25:49,140 --> 02:25:54,480
Nesters: If they don't ask for a refund, usually expect that they probably have gotten some value out of it.

1480
02:25:54,640 --> 02:26:04,820
Nesters: And with Daniel being below like 10 percent or around 10 percent refunds, mostly after one call where you realize it's not the thing you wanted, for example.

1481
02:26:05,200 --> 02:26:12,020
Nesters: I think it's reasonable for this kind of offer that you're going to have that churn.

1482
02:26:12,740 --> 02:26:18,380
Nesters: And with only 10 percent refunding, it sounds like most people do get the value out of it.

1483
02:26:20,740 --> 02:26:24,940
Nesters: And also need to understand some people just can't afford to spend that money.

1484
02:26:25,460 --> 02:26:28,560
Nesters: They just actually are comfortable spending that money on this kind of offer.

1485
02:26:28,980 --> 02:26:34,980
Nesters: Because there are people charging thousands an hour for consultancy similar to what Daniel offers.

1486
02:26:34,980 --> 02:26:42,120
Nesters: Maybe more like a niche with more money involved, etc.

1487
02:26:42,340 --> 02:26:49,620
Nesters: But there are people who ask way more an hour than, for example, Daniel ends up making with this.

1488
02:26:49,820 --> 02:26:53,220
Nesters: And Daniel clearly has some great expertise.

1489
02:26:53,480 --> 02:26:57,340
Nesters: But also, as we saw, he sold the community for 3.6 million.

1490
02:26:57,340 --> 02:27:05,080
Nesters: He clearly, for example, could offer very expensive consultancy probably to some kind of community builders.

1491
02:27:05,720 --> 02:27:12,260
Nesters: Especially those who are building for maybe a very, very, very high-level, high-end audience.

1492
02:27:12,260 --> 02:27:16,980
Nesters: Where they were planning to charge a huge one-time fee, for example, for community.

1493
02:27:17,120 --> 02:27:21,420
Nesters: Daniel can probably offer a lot of expensive consultancy to those.

1494
02:27:21,820 --> 02:27:23,900
Nesters: He hasn't done it, but I'm pretty sure he could.

1495
02:27:24,140 --> 02:27:26,340
Nesters: Because he has technically the credentials as well.

1496
02:27:30,330 --> 02:27:32,990
Nesters: So it could not just be a lifetime as well.

1497
02:27:33,930 --> 02:27:40,270
Nesters: Because I think the price, which I also recognize that is one of the aspects that people feel uncomfortable with also.

1498
02:27:40,830 --> 02:27:43,690
Nesters: Even if it's like, I'm charging so...

1499
02:27:43,690 --> 02:27:49,630
Nesters: Like I'm charging... it's not just, oh my god, lifetime and I'm gonna be on the call for the life or something.

1500
02:27:50,150 --> 02:27:55,750
Nesters: But they still feel like, wow, charging 2,000, for example, feels uncomfortable because of the price point as well.

1501
02:27:55,750 --> 02:28:01,470
Nesters: But if people pay for it, it might be worth for them.

1502
02:28:02,590 --> 02:28:03,570
Nesters: Worth it, so...

1503
02:28:04,470 --> 02:28:06,750
Nesters: So yeah, I think we're about can wrap it up.

1504
02:28:06,810 --> 02:28:08,270
Nesters: It's been two and a half hours.

1505
02:28:08,510 --> 02:28:10,650
Nesters: I don't think anyone else has questions right now.

1506
02:28:10,730 --> 02:28:15,890
Nesters: You can re-listen to the place if you missed like something in the beginning when Daniel was here.

1507
02:28:16,650 --> 02:28:21,650
Nesters: And the other questions were also being asked.

1508
02:28:22,170 --> 02:28:25,730
Nesters: You can obviously check the other two spaces out as well.

1509
02:28:26,430 --> 02:28:31,030
Nesters: Theweeklyapp.com, so you don't need to browse to our wall on X.

1510
02:28:32,250 --> 02:28:34,610
Nesters: But yeah, I think we are about to wrap it up then.

1511
02:28:35,490 --> 02:28:35,830
Nesters: Thank you.

1512
02:28:35,950 --> 02:28:37,110
Nesters: Thanks everyone for joining.

1513
02:28:37,450 --> 02:28:39,410
Nesters: Thanks for asking the questions.

1514
02:28:39,530 --> 02:28:43,870
Nesters: Victor and Vlad and whoever is already left, left the call.

1515
02:28:45,770 --> 02:28:46,910
Nesters: There should be an...

1516
02:28:46,910 --> 02:28:48,830
Nesters: There will be one again next week.

1517
02:28:49,150 --> 02:28:51,570
Nesters: We'll see what the topic is or what the guests are.

1518
02:28:51,630 --> 02:28:53,590
Nesters: We have multiple options for the guests.

1519
02:28:54,950 --> 02:29:00,110
Nesters: Including Daniel, again, of course, like talk about the community building, especially paid community building.

1520
02:29:00,390 --> 02:29:02,430
Nesters: But then we also might try something else.

1521
02:29:02,570 --> 02:29:04,790
Nesters: Because we wanted to experiment a little bit with these spaces.

1522
02:29:05,410 --> 02:29:08,530
Nesters: So you can always tune in next week.

1523
02:29:09,390 --> 02:29:10,890
Nesters: Likely the same day on Thursday.

1524
02:29:12,950 --> 02:29:14,570
Vlad: Thank you Nestors for leading this.

1525
02:29:15,590 --> 02:29:15,970
Vlad: Thank you.

1526
02:29:16,630 --> 02:29:17,910
Vlad: See you all next week.

1527
02:29:18,690 --> 02:29:19,970
Nesters: Yeah, see you next week, guys.

1528
02:29:20,390 --> 02:29:20,750
Nesters: Bye-bye.

1529
02:29:21,370 --> 02:29:21,850
Nesters: Bye.