1 00:01:24,970 --> 00:01:27,310 Nesters: All right, we should probably start warming up. 2 00:02:59,780 --> 00:03:06,440 Nesters: And just where you mute your mic, you can actually press on that arrow pointing up. 3 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,860 Nesters: You can change the input device because I can't hear you right now. 4 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,260 Nesters: I mean, Hasan, you can hear me, right? 5 00:03:12,220 --> 00:03:13,860 Nesters: Hey Nestor, yes, I can hear you. 6 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:16,720 Nesters: Okay, yeah, it's only Charles who's... 7 00:03:17,500 --> 00:03:25,400 Charles: Hey, I guess I'm just trying to use some of my studio equipment and it's not letting me, so I'm using the built-in mic. 8 00:03:25,660 --> 00:03:32,840 Nesters: Okay, yeah, the user... like the interface is really bad for the spaces. 9 00:03:33,140 --> 00:03:35,860 Nesters: It's a nice tool, but the interface is pretty bad. 10 00:03:38,500 --> 00:03:39,520 Nesters: How's everybody doing? 11 00:03:40,940 --> 00:03:43,740 Nesters: I mean, everyone's fine, by the way. 12 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,340 Nesters: We should probably just start. 13 00:03:45,340 --> 00:03:54,940 Nesters: Daniel will most likely be not involved as much today because he's also on his phone. 14 00:03:56,300 --> 00:04:05,380 Nesters: Partially busy right now, but we can actually also discuss your journey for most of all. 15 00:04:06,340 --> 00:04:09,980 Nesters: Because I remember in a... I guess, okay, so the weekly app, yeah. 16 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,220 Nesters: So we're gonna talk about various topics. 17 00:04:12,500 --> 00:04:19,700 Nesters: I mean, technically, this is the first episode, but we already did a trial run last week, and that was quite successful. 18 00:04:20,440 --> 00:04:28,520 Nesters: And there was also obviously a reason for it, because Daniel recently had sold his small bus community to Gumroad, so that was like a big deal. 19 00:04:29,280 --> 00:04:30,060 Charles: Yeah, it was pretty amazing. 20 00:04:31,860 --> 00:04:33,840 Nesters: Yeah, that's an amazing deal, by the way. 21 00:04:34,260 --> 00:04:44,460 Nesters: We'll probably can even talk even more related to the community building some other week as well, and like paid communities especially, because that's his expertise. 22 00:04:45,620 --> 00:04:56,200 Nesters: And this week, we're just gonna talk about actually your journey, the way I guess someone else could also perhaps in a way replicate maybe some of the elements of that success. 23 00:04:57,460 --> 00:05:05,480 Nesters: Because what I found interesting was, I believe a long time ago, you posted in Smallbits community and you're like, yeah, I have 750k, I believe, in Gumroad sales. 24 00:05:06,340 --> 00:05:15,080 Nesters: And I think I checked, I believe at some point, I checked social media or something, and I was like, I completely didn't know who you are. 25 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,260 Nesters: I didn't see many posts on X or whatever. 26 00:05:20,260 --> 00:05:28,220 Nesters: Honestly, I didn't even check enough to notice that you also had a YouTube channel, which now I know that you have 20k subscribers. 27 00:05:28,940 --> 00:05:32,840 Nesters: I was just completely like, oh wow, you're actually doing pretty well with your app. 28 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:40,020 Nesters: And it didn't feel like you were doing any of the traditional marketing most people are doing or paid ads, etc. 29 00:05:40,780 --> 00:05:54,600 Nesters: So I think I would want to start with like, how did you, you know, let's go back to your humble beginnings, you know, how you got like a small loan of 10 million from your parents and everything just fell into place. 30 00:05:56,140 --> 00:05:58,540 Nesters: Like, how did you get there? 31 00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:03,500 Nesters: Because you told me that you started with tutorials, which I included in the intro on YouTube. 32 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:05,800 Nesters: So where did that even begin? 33 00:06:06,060 --> 00:06:07,420 Nesters: Like, how did you get to that? 34 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:11,500 Charles: Well, I've always been a musician. 35 00:06:11,860 --> 00:06:16,800 Charles: I've always had music as like, the thing I always wanted to do. 36 00:06:17,700 --> 00:06:22,600 Charles: And I was pretty proficient at music theory when I started studying that in college. 37 00:06:23,140 --> 00:06:36,120 Charles: And one of the things I worked on in college a lot, I actually went to a conservatory to learn how to write orchestral music and, you know, score films and score string arrangements and horn arrangements for records. 38 00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:47,020 Charles: And I've always had this mindset that like, you know, if I can learn to do something, then anybody can do it because the way I'm able to figure it out, it seems like it's really simple. 39 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:55,880 Charles: And so that's what led me to like, let me make tutorial videos of how to do drop two voicings, how to do string arranging, how to do horn arranging. 40 00:06:56,020 --> 00:07:03,880 Charles: And that's kind of what got me into that mindset of, if I can teach myself how to code, clearly it's not that difficult to learn. 41 00:07:04,300 --> 00:07:09,380 Charles: The way I figure out how to do it seems to be like a pretty simple approach. 42 00:07:09,500 --> 00:07:13,100 Charles: Let me put that out for the rest of the world to learn. 43 00:07:13,220 --> 00:07:20,940 Charles: And maybe a lot of people will be able to use that and, you know, take care of themselves, take care of their families, that sort of thing. 44 00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:28,180 Charles: So that's kind of been my journey through everything is like, I'll figure out how to do it myself and then try to pass that knowledge along. 45 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:31,740 Charles: So which... go ahead. 46 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:46,740 Nesters: Yeah, which I believe is basically the advice Daniel or Daniel especially has given, like you like, if you learn a small, like a simple thing, you can actually teach it, maybe even the simplest things you can just teach someone else do this, just like, 47 00:07:47,280 --> 00:08:00,300 Nesters: just like you did, basically, because I remember he told about the story where someone was recording a video from her car, and basically recording and talking through a process of how to do this, like, that's something I don't even remember what the story was, 48 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:07,360 Nesters: I just remember that the video, the recording of the course was just very like basic, and it was just very simple setup. 49 00:08:07,780 --> 00:08:23,260 Nesters: And like, just just explaining the context of what you need to do, basically, and showing it, not going into like, oh, I'm gonna need to set up my studio, I would need to go into details, like, I'll need to make it perfect, basically, but just like, do you mean just raw? 50 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:25,760 Nesters: Do you mean like the production value of it wasn't very? 51 00:08:26,020 --> 00:08:26,220 Nesters: Yeah, yeah. 52 00:08:26,340 --> 00:08:33,960 Nesters: I mean, that's all all those other things that people feel like they need to do that it's not just like, oh, it's not about just I'm gonna show someone how to do it. 53 00:08:34,020 --> 00:08:39,040 Nesters: But I also need to add the additional value of the like, how the production will be perfect. 54 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:40,720 Nesters: Yeah, yeah. 55 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:43,080 Nesters: And yes, yes. 56 00:08:43,700 --> 00:08:57,660 Nesters: And also on top of it be like the content needs to be perfect to that needs to explain it in detail, you know, they can't just be like, I'm just gonna explain actually what you need to do not like, oh, not just the basic, just like the simplest things you need to do, 57 00:08:57,840 --> 00:09:05,000 Nesters: not just going into detail of explaining every single thing and why this angle and that angle needs to be taken care of, etc. 58 00:09:05,500 --> 00:09:05,800 Nesters: Right? 59 00:09:05,980 --> 00:09:10,720 Nesters: So it's almost like they're negating the performance aspect of creating value. 60 00:09:11,860 --> 00:09:15,300 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, I think you you probably got that right. 61 00:09:15,420 --> 00:09:19,420 Nesters: And I guess I want to like, what was the feedback on those early tutorials? 62 00:09:19,420 --> 00:09:22,840 Nesters: Did you already receive like positive feedback right away? 63 00:09:22,840 --> 00:09:29,720 Nesters: Or was it a little bit of like, you just were just putting content out, and there was not that many people like checking it? 64 00:09:29,820 --> 00:09:36,360 Nesters: Or did you actually like hit the right topics, basically, because you knew that people actually want to learn that? 65 00:09:37,580 --> 00:09:43,400 Charles: Well, I can speak on the music side of it, like some of the horn arranging tutorials that I made for my YouTube channel. 66 00:09:44,220 --> 00:09:46,700 Charles: I think what I was doing was really niche. 67 00:09:47,660 --> 00:09:51,880 Charles: And because of that, not many people were doing it. 68 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:58,140 Charles: So to present it in a way that seemed like it was really simple, made people interested in it. 69 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:04,360 Charles: And that's what actually drove a lot of that's what made people comment a lot on all of my early videos. 70 00:10:04,780 --> 00:10:09,080 Charles: That's what made people like, want me to create more of it. 71 00:10:09,780 --> 00:10:11,160 Charles: Looks like we have a hand raised. 72 00:10:12,180 --> 00:10:14,800 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, you're free to speak. 73 00:10:15,260 --> 00:10:16,820 Hassan: Hey, yes, Nestors. 74 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,280 Hassan: And thanks so much, Charles, for being a part of this. 75 00:10:19,560 --> 00:10:23,320 Hassan: I'm sorry, like, I don't think we've met before through small bets. 76 00:10:23,480 --> 00:10:37,900 Hassan: But just for context, especially for those who just are listening in, could you just give us, I know, you know, the title of this weekly app is 800k in Gumroad sales, which Wow, congratulations, that's nearly a billion dollars in sales on Gumroad. 77 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:43,120 Hassan: But just to kind of set the context, because I'm not really sure, like, what is it that you sell on Gumroad? 78 00:10:43,300 --> 00:10:51,800 Hassan: What I'm hearing is music and then programming, maybe starting with that sort of like your portfolio of products and where sales come from. 79 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:58,040 Hassan: And then we'll get into the earlier parts for those of you for those of us who are not familiar a little bit with your work. 80 00:10:58,120 --> 00:10:59,220 Hassan: That'll be that'll be great. 81 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:00,140 Charles: Yeah, yeah. 82 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:03,920 Charles: I sell an app called Cordy app. 83 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:10,120 Charles: And the premise of it is it shows you the names of the notes that you're playing, as well as the harmonic analysis. 84 00:11:10,660 --> 00:11:19,360 Charles: And a lot of people use it on YouTube, Instagram, all their social media to teach other people what they're playing. 85 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:36,900 Charles: There's a lot of musicians in the gospel music world, in the pop music world, they want to learn how to play, you know, the simple Bruno Mars songs, a lot of the CCM, Christian Contemporary Music songs, and they just don't have the skills to figure it out by ear. 86 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,320 Charles: And there's a market for a lot of teachers to show up there. 87 00:11:42,260 --> 00:11:45,960 Charles: And in order to do that, those teachers need a way to show what they're playing. 88 00:11:46,580 --> 00:11:48,620 Charles: And I made a tool that does that. 89 00:11:49,220 --> 00:11:59,520 Charles: And for a lot of people that want to learn music theory, like, it's really hard to learn piano as a grown up, because, like, you know, there's 88 keys, you don't know where to put your hands. 90 00:11:59,680 --> 00:12:01,860 Charles: And my app really simplifies that process. 91 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:14,720 Charles: And the only reason I made it was because I wanted to show people how to arrange for strings, how to arrange for horns, I had no idea that it was going to turn into how to play like a Bon Jovi song on piano. 92 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:16,420 Charles: I had no idea it was going to get used for that. 93 00:12:16,540 --> 00:12:19,280 Charles: But people found a way to do that and build audiences. 94 00:12:19,820 --> 00:12:22,300 Charles: And it kind of took off from there. 95 00:12:23,700 --> 00:12:24,500 Hassan: That's fascinating. 96 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,900 Hassan: So sorry to cut you off, but then are you selling the app on Gumroad? 97 00:12:28,060 --> 00:12:29,000 Hassan: Like, how does that work? 98 00:12:29,900 --> 00:12:36,180 Hassan: And by the way, I assume, like, I have zero knowledge of programming, zero knowledge of music. 99 00:12:36,420 --> 00:12:39,700 Hassan: So when you say horns and strings, I'm like, I need to look that up. 100 00:12:40,100 --> 00:12:45,900 Hassan: But just so I understand, like, is it a product on Gumroad where you download the app and people can use it locally? 101 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:46,800 Hassan: Is that how it works? 102 00:12:46,900 --> 00:12:48,460 Charles: Yeah, it's a desktop application. 103 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:49,900 Charles: I sell it on Gumroad. 104 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:57,180 Charles: I use their payment processor, which it's a desktop app for Windows and Mac OS. 105 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:03,720 Charles: Again, because, you know, a lot of these people who are using this tool are working in music software. 106 00:13:04,020 --> 00:13:07,480 Charles: They're creating music on their computer and they do it all by ear. 107 00:13:07,620 --> 00:13:11,900 Charles: So they have no idea how to, you know, name anything that they're actually playing. 108 00:13:14,100 --> 00:13:16,080 Charles: But it's a desktop application. 109 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:17,040 Charles: I sell it through Gumroad. 110 00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:21,520 Charles: I fight with their license key API often. 111 00:13:22,660 --> 00:13:27,920 Charles: But that's, like, the main reason I went with Gumroad was because... when did I meet with them? 112 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,740 Charles: I joined their platform in 2014. 113 00:13:32,300 --> 00:13:36,000 Charles: And that's when I discovered, like, that they have this license key approach. 114 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:39,900 Charles: And then they were also, like, I think at that time they were, like, $10 a month. 115 00:13:40,020 --> 00:13:43,580 Charles: Like, that was the fee that they charged to be on the platform and, like, sell stuff. 116 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:47,120 Charles: So it was, like, super convenient compared to other platforms. 117 00:13:49,620 --> 00:13:51,100 Hassan: Yep, I remember those early days. 118 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:51,520 Yeah. 119 00:13:54,100 --> 00:13:54,620 Nesters: All right. 120 00:13:55,180 --> 00:13:57,420 Nesters: Yeah, this is one of your products. 121 00:13:57,700 --> 00:14:01,500 Nesters: Actually, you actually discussed already almost, like, the license key. 122 00:14:01,620 --> 00:14:03,400 Nesters: I actually have all the questions listed out. 123 00:14:03,700 --> 00:14:15,420 Nesters: So actually, what Hasan asked, I was planning to actually ask the same thing, because it was actually interesting about the Gumroad experience, which you're selling software through there, because I wouldn't expect you when I was looking at your site. 124 00:14:15,640 --> 00:14:17,780 Nesters: It looks like you even iframed them, right? 125 00:14:18,680 --> 00:14:20,440 Nesters: The landing pages? 126 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,060 Nesters: How does it work with Gumroad? 127 00:14:22,740 --> 00:14:25,580 Nesters: Because I know this on your page for the courses, at least. 128 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,700 Nesters: I think the Gumroad page loads inside of your website, right? 129 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,360 Nesters: Yeah, they have that embed widget. 130 00:14:31,980 --> 00:14:36,100 Charles: I don't know too much about, like, the, you know, web... Yeah, that's basically the iframe, yeah. 131 00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:42,260 Nesters: But yeah, I'm just embedding the Gumroad product page inside of your website. 132 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:42,960 Nesters: Yeah, exactly. 133 00:14:43,260 --> 00:14:49,980 Nesters: And yeah, so technically, the checkout experience is a little bit more native to your website, in a way. 134 00:14:50,340 --> 00:14:53,180 Nesters: Like, so it's not as, like, they're leaving your website, I guess. 135 00:14:53,280 --> 00:15:07,320 Charles: Yeah, I have... that's actually something that I would be curious to talk with one of the conversion experts about is, like, how much of a difference does it make to go to a site like Gumroad to buy versus, like, buying within your website? 136 00:15:08,660 --> 00:15:22,000 Charles: Like, how much does it... how much are the users, like, inconvenienced by going to a site like mine and then being taken to gumroad.com to actually do the purchase versus being able to do it? 137 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:24,640 Charles: Like, how much does that affect conversion and that kind of stuff? 138 00:15:24,980 --> 00:15:26,840 Nesters: A couple percent, at least, probably. 139 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,160 Nesters: I mean, usually, it's a couple percent that you have third-party checkouts. 140 00:15:30,340 --> 00:15:32,780 Nesters: They usually reduce your conversion by a couple percent. 141 00:15:33,060 --> 00:15:42,080 Nesters: The people leaving to some... the main problem with those third-party checkouts is usually that they look, like, worse than, for example, Shopify. 142 00:15:42,340 --> 00:15:49,800 Nesters: You can have another custom checkout as, for example, embedded in the Shopify checkout flow. 143 00:15:50,260 --> 00:15:50,260 Okay. 144 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:56,700 Nesters: And those, for example, checkouts, they usually would, like, lower your conversion rate by a couple percent, at least. 145 00:15:56,880 --> 00:15:59,580 Nesters: In fact, for one store, it was actually, like, 20 percent. 146 00:15:59,860 --> 00:16:06,460 Nesters: And the reason was, turns out, they didn't accept American Express and some other card payment processor. 147 00:16:06,660 --> 00:16:07,720 Nesters: And they didn't even know that. 148 00:16:08,100 --> 00:16:11,300 Nesters: So, they realized that they actually were losing out some of the sales. 149 00:16:11,660 --> 00:16:15,620 Nesters: Some of them went to PayPal and then purchased through PayPal. 150 00:16:15,900 --> 00:16:17,200 Nesters: But some just disappeared. 151 00:16:17,500 --> 00:16:19,900 Nesters: So, yeah, there's some additional risks with those. 152 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:26,220 Nesters: But you're probably losing maybe a couple percent of the sales, especially if people, like, don't... 153 00:16:26,220 --> 00:16:27,900 Nesters: are not familiar with Gumroad. 154 00:16:28,440 --> 00:16:37,320 Nesters: Also, Gumroad has that weird issue when, in EU, it adds the VAT on top of the product price because the Gumroad doesn't have the VAT-inclusive pricing. 155 00:16:37,560 --> 00:16:45,540 Nesters: And for European... for Europeans, it's really odd because Europeans are used to getting the price with VAT included. 156 00:16:45,940 --> 00:16:48,080 Nesters: So, it's a conversion killer. 157 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:49,380 Nesters: So, that's what I'm saying. 158 00:16:49,500 --> 00:16:51,600 Nesters: You probably are losing a couple percent. 159 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:57,860 Nesters: So, depending on your volume, it's maybe irrelevant, based on your traffic volume. 160 00:16:58,420 --> 00:17:03,080 Nesters: Another reason is your trust with that audience, with that potential customer. 161 00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:07,940 Nesters: If the trust level is high, they'll probably go through that extra inconvenience. 162 00:17:08,260 --> 00:17:15,280 Nesters: But if it's, like, a cold audience that you would be running through ads, it starts to matter a little bit more, whether you're losing... Yeah. 163 00:17:15,360 --> 00:17:20,960 Charles: What's super interesting about that audience aspect is that I'm not the one who's, like, selling my app. 164 00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:35,260 Charles: All the people who use the app and make YouTube videos teaching how to play some, you know, Bon Jovi song or 30 Seconds to Mars song, like, they're the ones who are telling their audience, like, hey, you can trust this app. 165 00:17:35,580 --> 00:17:37,840 Charles: Go to this site and buy it here. 166 00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:50,860 Nesters: Yeah, that's what I noticed about you, that your social media, like, strategy or whatnot, didn't look very optimized towards, like, converting people, because you just use the word of mouth of other people. 167 00:17:51,260 --> 00:17:57,800 Nesters: But that's much stronger, like, that's a much stronger argument for your app, you know, it's like, you don't actually need to do that yourself. 168 00:17:57,900 --> 00:18:07,860 Charles: I think over the course of the app, I've spent maybe, like, 500 bucks on Facebook ads for both the app and the courses, like, and that's it. 169 00:18:09,080 --> 00:18:11,720 Charles: I just, I don't know how to market. 170 00:18:11,980 --> 00:18:23,860 Charles: And I've never kind of, it's not that I haven't needed to, it's just that what is the way the app gets noticed and gets converted into sales has been working. 171 00:18:23,980 --> 00:18:31,180 Charles: And I'm so busy just trying to make new features for it, that I don't have time to dive into, you know, marketing it. 172 00:18:31,820 --> 00:18:38,900 Charles: But that is also probably saying that I'm missing out on a bunch of sales that could be happening by not doing it. 173 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:54,300 Nesters: And if you don't like actively marketing, you could still do the SEO approach, which is a little bit passive marketing, as in you prepare some extra content, both on YouTube, and because YouTube is also SEO, that's still search engine optimization, you do the titles, 174 00:18:54,460 --> 00:18:58,380 Nesters: you do the context, it's still SEO optimization. 175 00:18:58,780 --> 00:19:07,660 Nesters: So YouTube, yeah, YouTube would still be SEO, because you're optimizing for YouTube search, and you're optimizing for Google search, where YouTube videos would show up. 176 00:19:08,660 --> 00:19:11,420 Nesters: So, yeah, so that's still, so YouTube is still SEO. 177 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:14,100 Nesters: Basically, you can focus on the keywords. 178 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:21,020 Nesters: You can do, yeah, the written context, we have a speaker request, potentially? 179 00:19:22,340 --> 00:19:25,980 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, give me a sec. 180 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:28,980 Nesters: Yeah, Kasan can also, if he has another question, yeah, sure. 181 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:39,560 Hassan: I don't think I was, I had a question, I was just clapping on the social media strategy there, Charles, which is fascinating. 182 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,460 Hassan: I mean, I've never heard of that, like having your customers basically do the marketing for you. 183 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:44,640 Hassan: So kudos to you on that. 184 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:45,780 Hassan: But no, I didn't have a question. 185 00:19:45,960 --> 00:19:46,380 Charles: Oh, thanks. 186 00:19:46,900 --> 00:19:52,720 Charles: I remember when the pandemic happened, and I did put out a video to all of my existing customers. 187 00:19:52,720 --> 00:20:07,360 Charles: I was like, here's how to use my app with OBS, so you can like teach your students, because I'm going to guess like 10% of the people who buy my app are music teachers that all got their studios shut down from the pandemic. 188 00:20:07,620 --> 00:20:10,440 Charles: And so they were like, crap, how do I keep teaching my 30-odd students? 189 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,200 Charles: Well, now I got to learn how to teach remotely. 190 00:20:13,020 --> 00:20:15,580 Charles: And so I put out a video about that, and that generated a bunch of money. 191 00:20:17,340 --> 00:20:17,340 Nice. 192 00:20:17,980 --> 00:20:22,260 Nesters: No, I mean, I love that you actually, at every single step, you just find the solution. 193 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:26,380 Nesters: That's, yeah, that's the mindset, actually. 194 00:20:27,100 --> 00:20:31,960 Nesters: I wish everyone here would also adopt, including, I guess, me and Prince, who I guess has a question. 195 00:20:32,500 --> 00:20:33,160 Nesters: Do you have a question? 196 00:20:34,340 --> 00:20:34,740 Nesters: Yeah. 197 00:20:34,860 --> 00:20:35,380 Prince: Hey, guys. 198 00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:39,980 Prince: My question is, I kind of missed what you were saying before. 199 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:41,460 Prince: You might have said this before. 200 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:41,920 Prince: Sorry. 201 00:20:42,620 --> 00:20:49,800 Prince: I kind of missed how you were marketing it in the first place, and how you're continuing to get these inbound sales. 202 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,840 Prince: Can you kind of like, sorry, could you repeat that? 203 00:20:52,960 --> 00:21:02,420 Prince: I just want to, I was quite interested in how you're still making sales, where you said, you know, you're just focusing time on creating features and not, you know, any kind of sales and stuff. 204 00:21:02,620 --> 00:21:05,780 Nesters: I think that was literally what he just said about the word of mouth. 205 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:09,480 Nesters: That's literally his marketing strategy, but he can obviously, yeah, expand. 206 00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:11,260 Nesters: Yeah, go ahead. 207 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:11,920 Prince: Oh, wow. 208 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:22,100 Prince: I was also wondering if, like, Gumroad Marketplace actually has anything to do with a percentage of sales or... Like, am I getting sales for their Discover feature? 209 00:21:23,480 --> 00:21:24,260 Prince: Yeah, yeah, exactly. 210 00:21:27,780 --> 00:21:35,980 Charles: I'm actually not sure how to pull that data up in Gumroad without actually pulling down the, like, the list of all customers and seeing what showed up there. 211 00:21:36,340 --> 00:21:38,080 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, we don't need to do that. 212 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:40,380 Nesters: Does it even, like, is it relevant at all? 213 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:45,500 Nesters: Because I personally feel like it's a very low percentage, right? 214 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,740 Charles: Yeah, I know it's not that much. 215 00:21:46,820 --> 00:21:50,960 Charles: And plus, they're charging, like, 30 percent or some huge amount for it. 216 00:21:51,380 --> 00:22:04,400 Charles: But to answer your question on how I got advertising, basically, like, somebody who had, like, 100k or 150k YouTube subscribers, like, they spent, you know, my app is $25. 217 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:11,060 Charles: And so for them, it was, like, it was kind of nothing for them to spend the money on it and start using it in a video. 218 00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:15,760 Charles: And then from there, it just, like, now their entire audience is seeing it. 219 00:22:15,820 --> 00:22:17,400 Charles: They're pumping out videos every week. 220 00:22:17,780 --> 00:22:21,980 Charles: Now I just have, like, a constant stream of free advertising, so to speak. 221 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:24,860 Charles: And, like, that happened in, like, 2016. 222 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:27,160 Charles: And it's kind of been that way ever since. 223 00:22:28,360 --> 00:22:30,620 Charles: Just the constant exposure to the audience. 224 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:33,900 Prince: So you had, like, music producers on YouTube. 225 00:22:34,740 --> 00:22:40,000 Prince: And they would create, I don't know, like, for example, songs or tracks or teaching stuff using your app. 226 00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:41,780 Prince: And they, how did they find it? 227 00:22:41,780 --> 00:22:48,140 Prince: They just, like, Google, I need something to help me, I don't know, create music on the video. 228 00:22:48,540 --> 00:22:58,800 Charles: The music producer community is surprisingly small because it's so hard to make a living doing it that a lot of people, like, they'll do it on the weekend, but they won't turn into their full-time thing. 229 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:14,760 Charles: And because of that, like, if word comes out of a new plugin to use or a new DAW to use, DAW is Digital Audio Workstation, like Logic Pro or Pro Tools or Reaper or, you know, Fruity Loops, FL Studio, that sort of thing. 230 00:23:15,660 --> 00:23:20,420 Charles: And so, you know, word gets around among the musician community really quickly. 231 00:23:21,260 --> 00:23:30,300 Charles: And that, you know, all these people, they have big audiences because people are always checking out what they're making, they're always live streaming, they're always producing new videos, they're always announcing their tours and stuff. 232 00:23:30,980 --> 00:23:47,840 Charles: Like, I think the reason that it worked the way it worked was because to be a musician, you have to do all of this self-promotion, which means you have to have a YouTube, Instagram presence, you have to have a presence where you can kind of show what you're doing, 233 00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:53,560 Charles: so people want to go to your shows, so people want to check out your music, they want to watch your videos. 234 00:23:54,900 --> 00:24:04,880 Nesters: And basically, by using your app, they kind of set the bar for actually good quality content higher because they actually can see the notes on the screen, right? 235 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:05,720 Charles: Exactly. 236 00:24:06,100 --> 00:24:14,000 Charles: It's kind of, it's the same model like when a manufacturer sends an effect pedal to a really popular YouTuber to demo it on their channel. 237 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:18,420 Charles: The people watching are gonna be like, oh man, that sounds amazing, I really want that product. 238 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,260 Charles: And then they keep seeing it show up in videos over and over. 239 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,500 Charles: They're like, if I want to sound like that guy who sounds amazing, I need to get their gear. 240 00:24:25,740 --> 00:24:30,280 Charles: If I want to make videos teaching how to play the song, I need to get that piece of software. 241 00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,800 Charles: It's kind of that mindset, and it just spreads out. 242 00:24:33,940 --> 00:24:43,960 Nesters: And because everyone would see your app on their screen with that content, you also kind of create that market saturation for your app, where basically everyone sees that app. 243 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,540 Nesters: So they're like curious, what is that app? 244 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:46,480 Nesters: I actually need it. 245 00:24:46,660 --> 00:24:49,340 Nesters: So I see how that snowballs in that niche. 246 00:24:49,500 --> 00:24:57,920 Nesters: I like that idea that you could actually conquer some niche with a really good tool, basically, that everyone just wants to use. 247 00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:10,660 Nesters: And you don't need to go after a huge market, because what you actually were targeting for using the app were actually the music producers, which is a much smaller niche, not the actual end user as the listener. 248 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:20,120 Charles: I wanted all these people who, when I'm doing gigs with them, because I was a professional performing musician for a long time, and a lot of them just didn't know music theory. 249 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,880 Charles: And if you don't know music theory, it's hard to communicate. 250 00:25:24,740 --> 00:25:28,820 Charles: It's just kind of hard to communicate, because you can't tell them, like, hey, play this chord. 251 00:25:29,420 --> 00:25:31,800 Charles: Instead, you got to show them the notes one at a time. 252 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,540 Charles: And that slows down the creative process. 253 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:41,120 Charles: So if you can teach them that stuff, then they're able to start expressing themselves, and you can express your ideas to them quickly. 254 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:52,080 Charles: So it was important to me, to all of my musician friends that didn't know music theory, to kind of bring them up to speed, so I could communicate with them about my musical ideas. 255 00:25:52,280 --> 00:26:03,080 Charles: And that's kind of what the tool is meant to do, is bring people, just kind of raise everybody's education level about music, and how to communicate and create with it. 256 00:26:04,340 --> 00:26:16,760 Nesters: Now, one thing that we still didn't talk about, because we went down the rabbit hole of your app, but you didn't just create an app, you actually pivoted towards doing courses as well. 257 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:26,720 Nesters: So I know, yeah, I mentioned in the intro, but how did you, again, went into another niche, and how did that happen? 258 00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,200 Prince: Well, so that story... 259 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:33,660 Prince: And by the way, did the Doom engine thing, does that relate to this pivot? 260 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,560 Prince: Because I really want to hear about that too. 261 00:26:35,860 --> 00:26:38,420 Nesters: The engine actually was for the app, right? 262 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:49,060 Nesters: And that's another thing I wanted to surprise you, because it will go into the courses too, because he was teaching people C++, by the way, to musicians, like you're teaching artists C++. 263 00:26:49,260 --> 00:26:54,320 Nesters: That sounds crazy to me, but maybe there's a reason. 264 00:26:54,580 --> 00:26:56,300 Nesters: So I don't know why people are so scared of that. 265 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,180 Nesters: I'll let Charles get into it. 266 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:16,120 Charles: Okay, so when I was a kid, Quake 1 and Quake 2 came out when I was a teenager, and I was really, really interested in how do they get the enemies to move around on the screen? 267 00:27:16,260 --> 00:27:24,300 Charles: And they had the thing called Quake C, and I was like 12 or 13 at the time, and this was like my first exposure to programming languages. 268 00:27:24,500 --> 00:27:31,720 Charles: And it's not C, it's not Java, it's Quake C, which is like a simplified version of C. 269 00:27:31,780 --> 00:27:33,440 Charles: There's no pointers, there's no arrays or anything. 270 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:35,060 Charles: So I was really curious about that. 271 00:27:35,780 --> 00:27:50,240 Charles: But I was also deep in the music thing, you know, graduated high school, went to community college, started working on understanding music more, also doing a minor in computer stuff, because I was just... I knew how to put computers together. 272 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:56,500 Charles: And then decided to go to music school, studied that, got out of music school. 273 00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:03,520 Charles: This is when Flash, Adobe Flash, was like taking off as like, this is the platform you want to make your websites with. 274 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:17,380 Charles: And surprisingly, there were lots of kids at the conservatory who were doing web development on the side, making websites for all of the kids, all of the students, we're all musicians, none of us are social, none of us know how to market. 275 00:28:18,140 --> 00:28:20,580 Charles: And they're like, you know what, let me make you a website. 276 00:28:21,180 --> 00:28:22,300 Charles: And so they build it all in Flash. 277 00:28:22,380 --> 00:28:24,300 Charles: And that got me interested in ActionScript. 278 00:28:25,980 --> 00:28:28,840 Charles: So I was messing around with ActionScript, this is around 2008, 2009. 279 00:28:29,300 --> 00:28:34,220 Charles: And then the Doom 3 source code gets released. 280 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:40,680 Charles: And I'm like, oh, man, I'm so curious how that game works, because I was messing around with the scripting language that they had in there. 281 00:28:41,580 --> 00:28:43,280 Charles: And so I'm like, I finally get to see this. 282 00:28:43,380 --> 00:28:43,820 Charles: Okay, cool. 283 00:28:43,940 --> 00:28:46,000 Charles: Let me, you know, figure out how to set up Visual Studio. 284 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:49,440 Charles: Let me figure out how to set up the debugger. 285 00:28:49,540 --> 00:28:53,580 Charles: Let me see if I can figure out how to actually run this game so I can start poking around in the code. 286 00:28:53,860 --> 00:29:08,400 Charles: And I'm literally not understanding how any of the language works, but I'm just setting breakpoints and then pushing step in, just over and over, step in and just watching how the variables change and watching how the language, watching what all the symbols do, 287 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:15,920 Charles: how the pointers work, just seeing how the memory gets modified, literally just one line of code at a time. 288 00:29:17,580 --> 00:29:27,100 Charles: And I'm doing that in my spare time while still, you know, teaching, performing, you know, creating string and horn arrangements for people's albums. 289 00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:29,460 Charles: But I'm also just like, how does the computer work? 290 00:29:29,460 --> 00:29:34,880 Charles: How does this code produce this model on screen running at you and shooting a weapon? 291 00:29:35,220 --> 00:29:39,380 Charles: How does it get, like, this explosion animation to occur? 292 00:29:39,540 --> 00:29:46,000 Charles: How does it, when you pick up this item, does it, you know, change some stat in your user settings for your character? 293 00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:48,040 Charles: I was just so curious about that stuff. 294 00:29:48,740 --> 00:29:54,760 Charles: And just doing that for months kind of gave me intuition about how the C++ language worked. 295 00:29:56,580 --> 00:30:05,900 Charles: So then, a few months later, I'm making this music tutorial about, you know, string arranging. 296 00:30:06,100 --> 00:30:09,340 Charles: And I'm like, man, I really wish there was a tool that would show what I'm playing. 297 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,680 Charles: And that's what brings me into, oh, I'm going to start, you know what, there's a framework I can do that. 298 00:30:14,740 --> 00:30:16,680 Charles: Let me see if I can figure out how to make an on-screen keyboard. 299 00:30:17,180 --> 00:30:17,980 Charles: Oh, there's one already there. 300 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,560 Charles: Okay, let me put an app together and see if I can get it to do, to show the information I needed it to show. 301 00:30:23,660 --> 00:30:28,020 Charles: And now I'm actually like writing C++, not really knowing what I'm doing. 302 00:30:28,180 --> 00:30:31,980 Charles: But, you know, if I see an error message, I can go read the error message. 303 00:30:32,100 --> 00:30:42,760 Charles: I can kind of Google how it works or just, you know, see if anybody else has solved it, get stuck for hours, and then, you know, finally solve it and go back. 304 00:30:43,700 --> 00:30:52,940 Nesters: By the way, did you ever consider maybe there's like a simpler programming language or framework used in something in C++? 305 00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:54,240 Nesters: No. 306 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:04,460 Charles: I just, I started learning about what goes into making audio software and they're like, you need to have the real-time performance. 307 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:09,240 Charles: It's got to have like, you know, it's got to be, it's got to be like extremely responsive. 308 00:31:09,380 --> 00:31:10,720 Charles: It needs to respond as quick as possible. 309 00:31:10,900 --> 00:31:12,620 Charles: What's the language that gets used for games? 310 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:13,260 Charles: It's C++. 311 00:31:13,540 --> 00:31:15,620 Charles: What's the language that gets used for audio plugins? 312 00:31:15,620 --> 00:31:18,860 Charles: Because I was really curious about how audio software got built. 313 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:25,140 Charles: So, it just made sense, like, if I want to learn to speak this language, I got to learn it. 314 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:31,000 Nesters: So, C++ was the language for the audio software because I guess it also goes with the hardware, right? 315 00:31:31,340 --> 00:31:31,760 Nesters: Exactly. 316 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:33,620 Nesters: That was still the, yeah, okay. 317 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,800 Charles: Yeah, like you got to get that real-time aspect to it. 318 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:39,180 Nesters: Fair enough. 319 00:31:39,220 --> 00:31:40,120 Nesters: Yeah, makes sense then. 320 00:31:40,700 --> 00:31:41,400 Nesters: So, okay. 321 00:31:41,500 --> 00:31:44,720 Nesters: So, we talked about Doom Engine and that was how it went. 322 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,520 Nesters: That's what led to the Cordy app. 323 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:49,180 Charles: Yeah, that's what Scratch is like. 324 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:50,280 Charles: Let me learn this language. 325 00:31:50,540 --> 00:31:54,820 Charles: I'm kind of starting to be able to read C++ a little bit and kind of understand what's going on. 326 00:31:55,340 --> 00:32:01,560 Charles: And then, the need to make the app came up and I was like, well, it's audio software, so let me do it with C++. 327 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:04,100 Charles: Okay, let me go find a way to do it. 328 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:05,660 Charles: And I found the Juice framework. 329 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:07,880 Nesters: Yeah. 330 00:32:08,060 --> 00:32:11,340 Nesters: How long did it take to actually publish the app? 331 00:32:12,100 --> 00:32:19,080 Nesters: Like, basically get it to a state where it's working and you can actually do stuff and present it to other people as well? 332 00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:27,780 Charles: I think, you know what, let me go, I think on my YouTube channel, I can find the very first version of the app, which is like, I think it was like in 2014. 333 00:32:29,060 --> 00:32:29,420 Charles: Let me see. 334 00:32:29,620 --> 00:32:31,580 Charles: Yeah, I believe that's what you mentioned initially. 335 00:32:31,580 --> 00:32:32,200 Nesters: Yeah. 336 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:34,040 Nesters: Yeah. 337 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:42,400 Nesters: So I guess, because to me, it's interesting, like how long would actually take for you to commit, like developing the full app in C++. 338 00:32:42,980 --> 00:32:49,560 Nesters: And I guess it's crazy that obviously, you did actually something that no one else apparently was willing to do, I guess. 339 00:32:49,880 --> 00:33:01,600 Nesters: And they were not, basically, you were at the right time in a sense that you're also were with the right, I guess, skill set in terms of getting interested in programming with the Doom engine. 340 00:33:03,900 --> 00:33:07,640 Nesters: So that led to you actually becoming the person who can develop this app. 341 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,820 Nesters: And that's your basically your success story for this. 342 00:33:11,540 --> 00:33:36,140 Charles: Yeah, which was kind of like, a little bit surprising, because I've always had like, I'm gonna have to do it myself attitude for most of the stuff that I embark on, which has unfortunately, caused me to never hire a marketer, never hire an employee, never just never have that experience of like leading people to accomplish a task. 343 00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:48,380 Nesters: I've always been... So you're like the original Stolepreneur, you basically started around the same time as Peter Levels, I think, if you actually know him in the indie community. 344 00:33:48,980 --> 00:33:49,160 Nesters: I don't. 345 00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:50,020 Nesters: Actually, you don't. 346 00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:51,140 Nesters: Okay, nice. 347 00:33:51,340 --> 00:33:51,620 Nesters: Nice. 348 00:33:51,760 --> 00:33:51,940 Nesters: Yeah. 349 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,420 Nesters: Maybe it's better and I'm joking. 350 00:33:55,760 --> 00:34:00,200 Nesters: But yeah, because yeah, you started basically around 2014, right? 351 00:34:00,580 --> 00:34:13,620 Charles: Yeah, I'm looking here because I'm looking at the oldest tutorial where I went from using Finale, that was the notation software to create these tutorials, to using my app. 352 00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:19,820 Charles: And this was, let me see if I go to this, this was this last one I posted. 353 00:34:20,860 --> 00:34:21,820 Charles: When was this? 354 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:23,660 Charles: When was this released? 355 00:34:24,100 --> 00:34:25,220 Charles: This is so long ago. 356 00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,140 Charles: This is March 15, 2015. 357 00:34:28,460 --> 00:34:31,420 Charles: And then, where did that go? 358 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,160 Charles: We got to go to oldest. 359 00:34:35,720 --> 00:34:36,760 Charles: And then so March 15. 360 00:34:36,980 --> 00:34:38,320 Charles: And I think this came out in April. 361 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:47,420 Charles: So I think I've been tinkering with it for like, maybe eight or nine months, maybe seven months, something like that. 362 00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:56,020 Charles: So when I had the idea, it took me probably like eight to 10 months to get it to where I was like, ready to show people on screen. 363 00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:02,120 Charles: And that difficulty is because there's so many rules around music notation for how to make it look correct. 364 00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:04,600 Charles: Like, yeah, which notes get accidental? 365 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,540 Charles: Where's which staff lines does go on? 366 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,940 Charles: Which side of the stem does the note go on? 367 00:35:10,260 --> 00:35:15,280 Charles: And there's just so many rules and edge cases that made it so difficult to get it right. 368 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,060 Charles: And like, to this day, it's still not right. 369 00:35:20,680 --> 00:35:22,060 Charles: Don't tell my customers that. 370 00:35:23,600 --> 00:35:24,340 Nesters: All right. 371 00:35:25,100 --> 00:35:27,940 Nesters: But you want to know about the transition from here? 372 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:32,660 Nesters: Yeah, because we actually wanted to, but then we started talking about the Doom engine and the C++. 373 00:35:32,980 --> 00:35:39,980 Nesters: But the transition happened to actually you becoming someone who sells courses. 374 00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:41,540 Nesters: Yeah, not just software. 375 00:35:42,980 --> 00:35:45,880 Charles: So at the time I was living in New York City, I was married. 376 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,180 Charles: And my wife at the time said, I'm done with New York. 377 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:51,460 Charles: I've been living here for 20 years. 378 00:35:52,140 --> 00:35:53,380 Charles: I want to go to California. 379 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:55,940 Charles: I'm just tired of New York. 380 00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,140 Charles: So I'd been there for, I think, 13 years at that point. 381 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,200 Charles: And so I was like, all right, let's do it. 382 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:06,980 Charles: And so we moved to Southern California. 383 00:36:07,220 --> 00:36:14,220 Charles: I didn't transition from the New York music career to the Southern California music career well. 384 00:36:15,020 --> 00:36:16,100 Charles: And I didn't adapt to it. 385 00:36:16,240 --> 00:36:20,300 Charles: And so I was like, all right, well, this is my chance to really dive into programming. 386 00:36:20,700 --> 00:36:22,340 Charles: Let me take it seriously. 387 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:29,340 Charles: And that's what led me to really going hard on learning C++. 388 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:35,200 Charles: And that's what started introducing me into the world of becoming a C++ audio contractor. 389 00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:43,300 Charles: The interesting thing about audio programmers is that there's no school to get a degree for it. 390 00:36:44,300 --> 00:36:46,380 Charles: Like, it's really kind of, you just tinker with it. 391 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:47,960 Charles: It's kind of a mysterious art. 392 00:36:48,140 --> 00:36:50,720 Charles: Nobody really knows because nobody wants to share. 393 00:36:51,580 --> 00:36:53,520 Charles: How do you make the delay pedal? 394 00:36:53,720 --> 00:36:56,240 Charles: How do you make the distortion pedal? 395 00:36:56,680 --> 00:36:57,940 Charles: You know, how does all that stuff work? 396 00:36:58,220 --> 00:36:59,520 Charles: How does all that stuff work? 397 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:01,100 Charles: It's kind of a mystic art. 398 00:37:01,700 --> 00:37:05,180 Charles: And that's why, like, you can't really go to school for it and learn it. 399 00:37:07,300 --> 00:37:17,960 Charles: And so I was like, I'm figuring this stuff out from, like, a music notation perspective and, like, how to, you know, make sine waves and just produce little bits of audio. 400 00:37:18,180 --> 00:37:23,520 Charles: Like, I'm pretty sure I can teach my friends who want to learn who are musicians how to do that. 401 00:37:23,720 --> 00:37:34,400 Charles: So I've just spent, like, you know, the past few months really going hard learning all the features of C++, templates, metaprogramming, all that kind of stuff. 402 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:38,100 Charles: Let me just write down everything I know into a document. 403 00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:45,960 Charles: And then that turned into a script for the course, the first course I made, C++ Language Fundamentals. 404 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:52,280 Charles: Because I was like, I can't stand the way all these other tutorials out there are teaching how to understand the way the language works. 405 00:37:52,340 --> 00:37:53,100 Charles: It's so confusing. 406 00:37:53,240 --> 00:37:54,060 Charles: It's so verbose. 407 00:37:54,060 --> 00:37:55,160 Charles: It doesn't make any sense. 408 00:37:55,220 --> 00:37:57,500 Charles: It doesn't work for a musician's brain. 409 00:37:58,460 --> 00:38:00,300 Charles: And I was like, I think I can teach this better. 410 00:38:00,720 --> 00:38:03,800 Charles: I think I can make this a lot easier for people to understand. 411 00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,900 Charles: And then that's what prompted the whole Programming for Musicians thing. 412 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:12,680 Charles: And then from there, I was like, well, let me see if I can make an equalizer, a little three-band EQ. 413 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,200 Charles: And then I made that. 414 00:38:14,420 --> 00:38:17,840 Charles: I told Free Code Camp about it, and they were like, hey, you can post it on our channel if you want. 415 00:38:18,240 --> 00:38:23,160 Charles: And then that got that video and that course in front of their audience. 416 00:38:23,180 --> 00:38:26,020 Charles: At the time, they had like 5 million subscribers. 417 00:38:26,900 --> 00:38:31,660 Charles: And then that video did like 770K views. 418 00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:41,540 Charles: They sent me an email recently that was like, this is our top video on the audio programming and on the Juice framework. 419 00:38:42,200 --> 00:38:43,300 Charles: Thanks for making it for us. 420 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,320 Charles: And that kind of got people interested. 421 00:38:45,540 --> 00:38:55,040 Charles: And it just basically pulled the curtain back of how audio programming works, how audio plugins work, how is music made on the computer. 422 00:38:55,720 --> 00:39:03,680 Charles: And I just, you know, I broke it down in a real simple way and just basically held the audience's hand through the entire process, start to finish. 423 00:39:03,820 --> 00:39:04,800 Charles: Here's how you make this thing. 424 00:39:04,920 --> 00:39:06,300 Charles: Here's how you get sound to happen. 425 00:39:06,660 --> 00:39:15,840 Charles: We're going to, you know, here's how we're going to twist the knobs on the screen, which is going to make it sound better or make it sound funkier or make it sound crunchier, that sort of thing. 426 00:39:16,420 --> 00:39:24,660 Charles: And it's like, yeah, it kind of got me in there and got the attention, got me the attention of some companies who were like, hey, we saw your video. 427 00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,280 Charles: Do you think you could do some contracting work for us? 428 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:34,260 Charles: And then that's what transitioned me out of music into coding as like a job. 429 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:50,480 Nesters: So you basically were learning more programming and you decided that it's actually too complicated to use the tutorials that existed and you simplified it for basically, you could say also your brain as in for a musician's brain. 430 00:39:50,940 --> 00:39:57,460 Nesters: And in turn, I guess that became basically something that was actually targeting. 431 00:39:57,740 --> 00:39:59,740 Nesters: You actually managed to actually do it very well. 432 00:39:59,820 --> 00:40:07,020 Nesters: So it was actually targeting the audio engineers and the musicians much better than the existing, yeah, basically the existing stuff. 433 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:23,140 Nesters: So in a way, it sounds like you even were like basically pioneering in the space by creating the educational content and getting people into the... Yeah, there's a lot of producers who are working in the studio and they're like, man, I like every time I record vocals, 434 00:40:23,300 --> 00:40:25,440 Charles: I'm always using this compressor with these settings. 435 00:40:25,540 --> 00:40:27,420 Charles: I'm always using this equalizer with these settings. 436 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:29,920 Charles: And I'm always using this reverb with these settings. 437 00:40:29,980 --> 00:40:31,360 Charles: And I never deviate from that. 438 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:37,440 Charles: Every time I load up a session, I always got to spend 10-20 minutes doing that, even though I'm templating the session. 439 00:40:37,620 --> 00:40:42,160 Charles: And, you know, it's like loading a saved document and just, you know, recording a channel. 440 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,160 Charles: It still takes me like 20 minutes because I got to load this up. 441 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,420 Charles: I wish there was a plugin that could do that for me. 442 00:40:47,980 --> 00:40:55,580 Charles: And then they would reach out to the Juice Forum or they would reach out to me and be like, hey, can you build this plugin for me? 443 00:40:55,940 --> 00:41:01,680 Charles: And then that's what kind of opens the door for contracting boutique work, so to speak. 444 00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,560 Charles: And it's surprising how many people out there want to do that. 445 00:41:07,060 --> 00:41:09,340 Charles: Like that they want a custom plugin made for them. 446 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,020 Charles: And then they have their own ideas of like, I've got this custom plugin. 447 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:14,580 Charles: I've worked with a pretty prominent artist. 448 00:41:14,780 --> 00:41:17,100 Charles: So now I have an audience that I could sell to. 449 00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,740 Charles: I want to sell the plugin that you made for me, my customized plugin, which gives me my sound. 450 00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:27,640 Charles: I want to sell that to my audience and turn that into a stream of passive income. 451 00:41:27,760 --> 00:41:28,980 Charles: Can you build that for me? 452 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:32,780 Charles: Which is kind of neat. 453 00:41:34,340 --> 00:41:46,960 Charles: At the same time, I'm also like, sure, but I would rather show you how to build it yourself because there's going to come a point where you're going to have a feature that I'm like, that's going to take too long for me to build and it's going to be too expensive, 454 00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:51,860 Charles: but I can help you learn, you know, figure out how to build it yourself. 455 00:41:52,660 --> 00:41:57,800 Charles: And then that turns into like a mentoring kind of thing, which has always been a big thing for me. 456 00:41:57,920 --> 00:42:02,020 Charles: If I can figure it out for myself, let me help somebody else learn to figure it out for themselves. 457 00:42:02,500 --> 00:42:08,200 Charles: Like try to mentor them through that process versus just selling them a product, if that makes sense. 458 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:24,440 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, it's nice that you still get the consulting offers that way because it clearly showed that your skill and basically what you offered was valuable and then later turned it into a mentorship style of, I guess, through the courses. 459 00:42:24,700 --> 00:42:26,340 Nesters: Because I guess you mostly sold courses, right? 460 00:42:26,380 --> 00:42:28,500 Nesters: There was not any other teaching arrangements. 461 00:42:29,180 --> 00:42:32,320 Nesters: I did have a couple music teaching ones, but I never really promoted them. 462 00:42:32,820 --> 00:42:44,920 Charles: And it takes so much time to finesse something like software instruments to sound like a real instrument. 463 00:42:45,600 --> 00:42:47,680 Charles: It's just difficult to teach that. 464 00:42:48,220 --> 00:42:52,880 Charles: It's difficult to show the person who's watching the video, here are all the little things you have to do. 465 00:42:52,920 --> 00:42:57,400 Charles: Because the video ends up being like 15-20 hours long and nobody wants to watch that. 466 00:42:58,060 --> 00:43:12,740 Charles: They want to watch like 20 minutes here and there and get kind of the instant gratification from like, I bought this course, I'm going to watch it for 30 minutes and then I'm immediately going to have the skill of how to create this amazing form of art after watching for 30 minutes. 467 00:43:13,140 --> 00:43:14,560 Charles: But that's not how it actually works. 468 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:29,680 Nesters: So you would say your process was very introspective, the way you came to the conclusion, what solution the audience needs, or were you actually mostly looking outside and being like, this is how other people learn and I can help? 469 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:33,960 Nesters: Or it was more like, as you said, if I can do it, someone else can do it. 470 00:43:34,160 --> 00:43:35,900 Nesters: Were you being more introspective? 471 00:43:36,020 --> 00:43:41,120 Charles: Yeah, it's always been like, I'm curious how this works, and then I go figure it out. 472 00:43:41,220 --> 00:43:45,820 Charles: And then I'm like, oh, let me go show everybody that I know how it works. 473 00:43:46,420 --> 00:43:50,600 Charles: And that's what the Free Code Camp videos were, all of the tutorial videos on my YouTube. 474 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,140 Charles: It's always been hey, I figured out how to do a thing, check it out. 475 00:43:55,660 --> 00:44:03,120 Charles: Probably not the best model for running a business, but I've avoided having a nine-to-five job for my entire life. 476 00:44:03,740 --> 00:44:10,220 Charles: And I'm able to take care of myself and my kid and have a pretty decent life as a result. 477 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:12,180 Charles: So it's working for me. 478 00:44:13,220 --> 00:44:16,900 Nesters: Yeah, and for those courses, how did you start? 479 00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,280 Nesters: I guess, how did you start selling them? 480 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:22,480 Nesters: Was it part of your YouTube channel? 481 00:44:23,380 --> 00:44:25,300 Nesters: Did you create a website? 482 00:44:25,720 --> 00:44:28,860 Nesters: I'm wondering now where the marketing for the courses came from. 483 00:44:29,020 --> 00:44:31,180 Charles: So I had a Discord server. 484 00:44:31,360 --> 00:44:35,580 Charles: Basically, on the juice forum, there's all these developers that hang out on there. 485 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:37,320 Charles: But a forum is not real-time. 486 00:44:37,740 --> 00:44:46,000 Charles: So at that time, I was just hounding the people in the C++ Discord, like, how does stuff work? 487 00:44:46,100 --> 00:44:47,580 Charles: How do these language features work? 488 00:44:47,680 --> 00:44:50,420 Charles: Can you help me understand why this snippet doesn't work correctly? 489 00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:51,660 Charles: And I was like, you know what? 490 00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:57,320 Charles: I can just make my own Discord server that's for audio people. 491 00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,440 Charles: And I go tell the people in the juice forum about it. 492 00:44:59,740 --> 00:45:01,580 Charles: And then they all join on there. 493 00:45:01,700 --> 00:45:07,480 Charles: And now it's like, we have a real-time place for audio development discussions. 494 00:45:08,340 --> 00:45:11,380 Charles: Like I said in the beginning, this is a real niche community. 495 00:45:12,020 --> 00:45:21,460 Charles: And then there was another guy called... he had a YouTube channel that he started because he was trying to learn how to do audio programming. 496 00:45:21,720 --> 00:45:25,860 Charles: And he made a YouTube channel called The Audio Programmer. 497 00:45:26,780 --> 00:45:31,120 Charles: Definitely missed marketing opportunity by me to capitalize on that. 498 00:45:32,540 --> 00:45:34,060 Charles: But he made a Discord server. 499 00:45:34,140 --> 00:45:39,780 Charles: And he was way better at marketing than me and was able to propel that into a pretty massive community. 500 00:45:40,300 --> 00:45:45,600 Charles: So then when I started posting there a lot, I closed down my Discord and told everybody to go over there. 501 00:45:45,860 --> 00:45:53,220 Charles: I started making my course, the Programming for Musicians C++ Language Fundamentals course. 502 00:45:53,340 --> 00:45:54,440 Charles: I told him about it. 503 00:45:54,460 --> 00:45:58,100 Charles: And he was like, hey, let's shop this to everybody. 504 00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:04,880 Charles: So this was basically finding somebody that has a big audience and getting them to do all the marketing. 505 00:46:05,520 --> 00:46:06,640 Charles: And then that's what happened. 506 00:46:06,760 --> 00:46:12,540 Charles: Once we did that first video, he did a couple of promotional things on his YouTube channel. 507 00:46:12,700 --> 00:46:14,100 Charles: I talked on there a little bit. 508 00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:19,420 Charles: I posted some videos on his channel, basically establishing credibility with his audience. 509 00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:22,740 Charles: And then it came time to just say, hey, here are the courses. 510 00:46:23,040 --> 00:46:24,060 Charles: You can go buy them here. 511 00:46:24,240 --> 00:46:25,080 Charles: And it worked. 512 00:46:25,540 --> 00:46:31,440 Charles: A lot of people were really wanting to elevate their skill level at audio programming at C++. 513 00:46:32,640 --> 00:46:34,200 Charles: And so they all bought in. 514 00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,140 Charles: And that's kind of what started the whole thing. 515 00:46:39,140 --> 00:46:41,780 Charles: That's sort of an affiliate arrangement, right? 516 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:43,400 Charles: Yeah, it was an affiliate arrangement. 517 00:46:43,860 --> 00:46:45,300 Charles: And it worked really well. 518 00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:49,820 Charles: The scary thing was, I didn't trust myself. 519 00:46:49,940 --> 00:46:52,800 Charles: And I didn't know how good of a programmer I was. 520 00:46:53,380 --> 00:47:06,500 Charles: So to find myself in that position of like, a bunch of people are going to look to me for leadership on how to write audio software, and I'm doubting myself, that was a big leap that I had to take. 521 00:47:07,780 --> 00:47:17,600 Charles: I'm sure everybody in here who has done any kind of software development knows what that's like when you're like... it's kind of like when you're applying for a job that you know you're not qualified for, but you go for it anyway. 522 00:47:17,780 --> 00:47:21,980 Charles: And then they hire you and you're like, oh crap, now I really got to show up. 523 00:47:22,260 --> 00:47:24,780 Charles: It was kind of like that experience. 524 00:47:28,260 --> 00:47:32,580 Nesters: Yeah, I think that's how I feel with actually launching my course on SEO. 525 00:47:32,900 --> 00:47:38,380 Nesters: Yeah, I was thinking about it, but I never really felt like I really want to launch it. 526 00:47:38,460 --> 00:47:45,580 Nesters: Especially, I felt like I want to launch it last year, but I was like, not feeling very confident about when you're like, oh, you actually need to put it out. 527 00:47:45,580 --> 00:48:06,880 Nesters: This year, when all this in the wipe coding and the wipe hacking basically came around, I realized there's so many beginners that are coming into space now because of AI, that probably want to just launch a really beginner course for SEO first, so people actually can understand it for themselves. 528 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:11,640 Nesters: Not going into details too much, but actually connect the dots, basically. 529 00:48:12,240 --> 00:48:19,300 Nesters: Actually, similar to what you were doing for that niche, specifically for your niche of musicians and audio engineers. 530 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:31,940 Nesters: I actually want to do that for the beginners, so I'm planning to sometime in May, probably launch that SEO course finally, specifically for those beginners who actually have no idea how to do SEO at all. 531 00:48:32,120 --> 00:48:38,740 Nesters: Not the ones who need to get better at SEO, but more specifically the ones who just haven't gotten into SEO. 532 00:48:39,420 --> 00:48:47,040 Nesters: Yeah, and you're actually also inspiration for this in a way now, that I'm like, yeah, definitely should be focused. 533 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:57,220 Nesters: Because you kind of laid out the path that you just focus on that niche, and you show them the way, and then they can do it for themselves, which is, yeah. 534 00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:07,920 Charles: Well, I mean, it's like tying it back to the thing you said at the beginning about the lady who was making some tutorial video from her car. 535 00:49:09,340 --> 00:49:15,540 Charles: She's not worried about if she has the credentials to do it. 536 00:49:15,620 --> 00:49:18,900 Charles: She's just doing it anyway, and just having that self-confidence. 537 00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:27,880 Charles: If you're making a course like Teaching C++ or SEO, sometimes you're just going to say, you know what, I am skilled at this. 538 00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:30,860 Charles: I know a lot more about this than other people do. 539 00:49:30,860 --> 00:49:32,540 Charles: I'm just going to put it out there. 540 00:49:32,660 --> 00:49:34,140 Charles: It's going to find the right audience. 541 00:49:34,220 --> 00:49:35,060 Charles: It always does. 542 00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:38,140 Charles: And I'll just run with it that way. 543 00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:42,040 Charles: I need to stop being afraid of the success this is going to produce. 544 00:49:44,940 --> 00:49:47,020 Nesters: No, your story is actually great. 545 00:49:47,500 --> 00:49:55,920 Nesters: I actually was surprised initially to think about that you actually were learning C++ as a musician and everything. 546 00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:02,780 Nesters: And I was impressed that actually you were learning and teaching C++, by the way, to musicians. 547 00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,400 Nesters: That was the most impressive thing when I started reading about your story. 548 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:14,140 Nesters: I tried learning C++ when I was 14 or 15, and I just quit somewhere mid-tutorial. 549 00:50:14,260 --> 00:50:15,940 Nesters: No, the tutorials were also bad. 550 00:50:16,180 --> 00:50:23,700 Nesters: I recognized those tutorials that you see about C++, the ones that were especially 10 years ago, 15 years ago. 551 00:50:23,700 --> 00:50:28,160 Nesters: The ones that were back then, the tutorials were bad. 552 00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,340 Nesters: The ones I found, they were actually not engaging. 553 00:50:31,500 --> 00:50:32,860 Nesters: You're not making anything fun. 554 00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:40,120 Nesters: So what I got into later was more like... I would get into Python and Lua. 555 00:50:40,300 --> 00:50:43,220 Nesters: Lua is a scripting language sometimes used in video games. 556 00:50:43,460 --> 00:50:53,440 Nesters: Yes, because I was hosting video game servers actually basically for GTA, like San Andreas, that came out in 2004. 557 00:50:53,780 --> 00:51:07,080 Nesters: They had two mods that allowed you to basically host technically not official but unofficial video game servers for those games like GTA, San Andreas, and also Counter-Strike, etc. 558 00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:10,060 Nesters: But mainly GTA. 559 00:51:10,380 --> 00:51:15,560 Nesters: So that's when I actually learned Lua, and also later I learned Python. 560 00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:22,800 Nesters: And there was also another scripting language that was similar to C++, but I forgot. 561 00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:27,740 Nesters: I forgot actually, it's more like similar to C that was also used there, but I forgot the name. 562 00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:32,080 Nesters: Anyway, but yeah, I learned Lua that way, and Lua was way more fun. 563 00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:38,820 Charles: Yeah, I remember using Codea on the iPad when I lived in New York too. 564 00:51:39,180 --> 00:51:55,560 Charles: That was like after I did ActionScript, started doing Lua because I wanted to learn how to make games, and they had, it was like a $10 app that you use on the iPad, and I was taking the subway every weekend for like an hour and a half to get from my apartment to the church gig that I was playing. 565 00:51:56,380 --> 00:52:06,840 Charles: And so that's a lot of time to be on the train, so I had the iPad with the keyboard and I would just sit there and like study the code of the examples, and then try to write my own thing, and see if I could figure out, well if I write this line, like how does it, 566 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,360 Charles: what change gets showing up when I actually run the app? 567 00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:22,780 Charles: And it, that was like my weekend, that was like my experience every week, like you know, for every train ride that I took, going to the gig, coming home from the gig. 568 00:52:23,620 --> 00:52:31,920 Charles: It was always just like, I'm gonna spend like one and a half to two hours just coding, trying to figure out Lua, trying to study these languages, do that sort of thing. 569 00:52:33,100 --> 00:52:37,740 Charles: Man, that's just like, that brings me back to Lua. 570 00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:38,920 Charles: Such a good time. 571 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:44,300 Nesters: I mean, you're definitely, you're definitely efficiently using your time if you are actually doing that every time on the train. 572 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,760 Charles: Well, I was just so curious about how did that stuff work. 573 00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:50,960 Charles: I wasn't even thinking about is this an efficient use of my time. 574 00:52:51,020 --> 00:52:55,380 Charles: It was just like the obsession with, I want to understand how it works, is what was propelling me. 575 00:52:56,560 --> 00:53:00,020 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I love that you actually had that obsession over things. 576 00:53:00,240 --> 00:53:10,380 Nesters: It seems that this, that's one part of the, you know, the successes that so often you see is actually that, a little bit of that obsession, you know, figuring out how things work. 577 00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:16,820 Nesters: And if you can turn it to also be like, okay, I was obsessed about it, I learned it, and now I'm going to teach others to do it. 578 00:53:17,660 --> 00:53:26,360 Nesters: That's what obviously, that's probably often is the difference between the person who I guess doesn't make that side income from these things. 579 00:53:26,620 --> 00:53:30,740 Nesters: And the one who does is actually the person who's like, okay, I can actually teach that to other people as well. 580 00:53:31,020 --> 00:53:33,140 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, you still got to have that audience though. 581 00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:34,860 Nesters: That's the thing that a lot of people are missing. 582 00:53:35,300 --> 00:53:36,480 Nesters: You got to have an audience. 583 00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:43,320 Nesters: And you managed to get that audience by basically being first in the niche with the app, I guess, right? 584 00:53:43,420 --> 00:53:47,520 Nesters: The audio engineer niche actually saw you, saw your content. 585 00:53:47,820 --> 00:53:49,720 Charles: I got on Pro Tools Experts' radar. 586 00:53:49,920 --> 00:54:02,880 Charles: They were a pretty big YouTube channel at the time, pretty big mailing list, because this was back before everybody was using Logic Pro or Ableton, everybody was using Pro Tools, whatnot. 587 00:54:06,580 --> 00:54:10,620 Nesters: I guess Victor wants to, maybe Victor wants to say something. 588 00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:11,120 Nesters: Yeah, sure. 589 00:54:11,980 --> 00:54:13,040 Wiktor: Yeah, yeah, question. 590 00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:18,920 Wiktor: So one question was already answered by you by the go off how the talk went. 591 00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:39,060 Wiktor: But second question, as we are on this topic of like expertise and this transition from like knowing a skill to being considered an expert in like some obviously niche area, but do you have any advice in terms of like, I mean, I heard a lot, you know, 592 00:54:39,080 --> 00:54:56,260 Wiktor: doing tutorials, collaborating with other people in this space, but like, do you have any other general advice when you have some skill and you want to transition from just having the skill to being in a situation like you had an example of someone came up to you and said, 593 00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,880 Wiktor: hey, can you do that app for me? 594 00:54:59,080 --> 00:55:03,600 Wiktor: Like combine a few VSTs, I presume, into one. 595 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:05,500 Wiktor: So yeah, that's the question. 596 00:55:06,300 --> 00:55:15,040 Charles: I think that comes about from A, having a community that you can demonstrate your skill set to. 597 00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:26,700 Charles: But the way to demonstrate your skill set, I've found is like, as soon as you learn a thing, like literally the same day, go share it with the community. 598 00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:40,000 Charles: Like, hey, I just learned how to, I'll use Nestor's example, like, I just learned how to configure my SEO so that way it uses these extra five terms that it wasn't using before. 599 00:55:40,500 --> 00:55:41,920 Charles: Let me make a little post about it. 600 00:55:42,040 --> 00:55:46,720 Charles: And then people see them like, oh, actually, were you aware that you could also do it this way? 601 00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:50,480 Charles: And now you've got a community that you're learning from and also contributing to. 602 00:55:51,140 --> 00:55:55,060 Charles: And that establishes value with them and credibility. 603 00:55:56,580 --> 00:56:18,980 Nesters: You actually are explaining the exact process that the person who Victor actually dislikes, and I have had my own experiences with him at Peter level, which is known in the solopreneur community basically as the guy who basically has a problem, he shares the problem, 604 00:56:19,240 --> 00:56:26,200 Nesters: then he just tries to figure out the problem and he shares it on X mostly, I guess, primarily only on X. 605 00:56:26,460 --> 00:56:29,680 Nesters: He shares how he solves the problem basically step by step. 606 00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:30,900 Nesters: He just posts it. 607 00:56:31,740 --> 00:56:33,600 Nesters: What kind of problems is he solving? 608 00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:35,200 Prince: Is this a specific person or...? 609 00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,440 Nesters: No, we're talking about Peter levels and how basically... 610 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:40,300 Nesters: Oh, your bestie. 611 00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:43,400 Nesters: I knew this conversation would come back to me. 612 00:56:43,420 --> 00:56:45,700 Nesters: No, no, I'm just, I was referring to Victor also. 613 00:56:45,920 --> 00:56:46,940 Wiktor: I don't know who that is. 614 00:56:47,440 --> 00:56:54,400 Wiktor: It's like all the roads to Rome, you know, all X, you know, meetings... 615 00:56:55,300 --> 00:56:56,520 Prince: Yeah, he's that guy. 616 00:56:56,520 --> 00:57:01,380 Prince: By the way, Charles, we also call him the guy who must not be named. 617 00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:03,560 Prince: He's kind of like Lord Voldemort in small bits. 618 00:57:04,180 --> 00:57:06,200 Charles: What does he do that's so horrible? 619 00:57:06,720 --> 00:57:08,020 Charles: I don't know anything about him. 620 00:57:08,520 --> 00:57:09,960 Charles: Fill me in so I can read it too. 621 00:57:11,480 --> 00:57:12,580 Prince: I'm happy for you. 622 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:14,340 Wiktor: Just, I think you should just keep it that way. 623 00:57:15,060 --> 00:57:15,880 Wiktor: Yeah, yeah. 624 00:57:16,460 --> 00:57:20,600 Wiktor: Let's just keep, you know, it's sacred knowledge. 625 00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:21,660 Wiktor: It's sacred knowledge. 626 00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:23,220 Wiktor: You do not need it. 627 00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:25,720 Wiktor: Someone can direct me to do that. 628 00:57:25,720 --> 00:57:26,020 Wiktor: Yeah, thank you for asking. 629 00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,600 Wiktor: And just out of curiosity, just to tie up my question. 630 00:57:32,660 --> 00:57:39,780 Wiktor: I heard that there was you, when finding that community, you used like forums or... 631 00:57:39,780 --> 00:57:40,200 Wiktor: Yeah. 632 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:42,420 Wiktor: What did you use, you know, back when you were starting? 633 00:57:43,520 --> 00:57:50,240 Charles: I was, you know, there was a site called Gear Sluts because I was super deep into making audio gear myself. 634 00:57:50,240 --> 00:57:52,480 Charles: I really wanted to have a recording studio. 635 00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,800 Charles: And I didn't have any money because I was a poor starving musician. 636 00:57:56,500 --> 00:58:00,740 Charles: And there was a site that, it was called Group DIY. 637 00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:04,380 Charles: And that was all about making audio equipment yourself. 638 00:58:04,380 --> 00:58:10,920 Charles: And I was like, well, I can't afford, you know, a $3,000 preamp, but I can't afford a $500 kit that I can build myself. 639 00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,140 Charles: So let me go buy the kit and build that and get really involved in there. 640 00:58:14,900 --> 00:58:20,020 Charles: And that's what kind of, from there, I found, you know, Gear Sluts. 641 00:58:20,660 --> 00:58:23,020 Charles: That was, they've changed their name to Gear Space. 642 00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,620 Charles: But the whole idea was like, there are these big community forums. 643 00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:29,800 Charles: There's KVR Audio Forum. 644 00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:37,280 Charles: There are all these big sites that hundreds of thousands of musicians are searching on. 645 00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:38,620 Charles: How do I get that guitar tone? 646 00:58:38,900 --> 00:58:40,520 Charles: How do I use my audio interface? 647 00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:45,080 Charles: Hey, what's the feature to, you know, solo this track? 648 00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,960 Charles: Or I'm getting a weird bug in, you know, when I record this thing, I'm getting a weird artifact. 649 00:58:49,360 --> 00:58:52,560 Charles: And it's just these massive communities that you just inject yourself into. 650 00:58:52,860 --> 00:58:56,520 Charles: And, you know, try not to spam them too much. 651 00:58:56,700 --> 00:59:02,060 Charles: But, you know, like, make yourself known in a good way. 652 00:59:03,480 --> 00:59:08,500 Nesters: I think that's actually, like, if we're talking about the communities, obviously, we can... 653 00:59:09,200 --> 00:59:14,360 Nesters: For others, the similar examples would be specific subreddits on Reddit. 654 00:59:14,660 --> 00:59:14,960 Nesters: Exactly. 655 00:59:15,620 --> 00:59:17,120 Nesters: Yeah, well known. 656 00:59:17,340 --> 00:59:22,220 Nesters: Or even for, like, for example, if I mentioned Shopify example, there's a Shopify community forum, for example. 657 00:59:22,360 --> 00:59:28,680 Nesters: So if you work with e-commerce, you might want to be on that Shopify community forum and actually get known for your solutions. 658 00:59:29,300 --> 00:59:31,340 Nesters: And for the advice you give, basically. 659 00:59:32,680 --> 00:59:39,500 Nesters: Similarly, there's a lot of Discord servers for various topics, as you mentioned, for the music, audio engineering, etc. 660 00:59:39,760 --> 00:59:41,300 Nesters: There's a lot of those Discord servers. 661 00:59:41,460 --> 00:59:42,320 Nesters: And if you become a... 662 00:59:42,320 --> 00:59:52,940 Nesters: And even, like, a small bits community, honestly, like, if you do a specific thing, offer, like, advice on the specific thing, that obviously helps you, first of all, be recommended by others. 663 00:59:53,820 --> 01:00:00,520 Nesters: And second of all, even within the community, you become, like, a figure of authority on those topics. 664 01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:02,620 Nesters: Like, for example, in... 665 01:00:02,620 --> 01:00:03,340 Nesters: Yeah, yeah. 666 01:00:03,400 --> 01:00:08,820 Nesters: So I guess we had that, for example, with ads, with Francesco, as well, in small bits community. 667 01:00:09,140 --> 01:00:15,520 Nesters: Like, he already left the space, but he initially was not really known for his expertise. 668 01:00:15,760 --> 01:00:17,840 Nesters: We ran some spaces, people were not interested. 669 01:00:18,040 --> 01:00:21,720 Nesters: But later, he started working with Hassan, who also has left, but he spoke earlier. 670 01:00:22,100 --> 01:00:24,060 Nesters: He started working with a couple other people. 671 01:00:24,240 --> 01:00:27,380 Nesters: Daniel also recommended him on X as well. 672 01:00:27,420 --> 01:00:37,280 Nesters: And now, suddenly, he's actually getting people interested, you know, in his ads expertise, because that's something, actually, a lot of creators miss, running ads, just like you, Charles. 673 01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:38,720 Charles: Yeah, he's got the credentials now. 674 01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:40,400 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 675 01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:41,280 Nesters: So that's the point, right? 676 01:00:41,300 --> 01:00:43,100 Nesters: You actually become part of one community. 677 01:00:43,400 --> 01:00:48,460 Nesters: So that saturation in that smaller community is much easier to achieve than going to, like, a large market. 678 01:00:48,800 --> 01:00:49,080 Nesters: Yeah. 679 01:00:51,980 --> 01:01:03,360 Nesters: Yeah, so yeah, that's just adding on top that, like, that's literally any community you can find on Reddit, Discord, whatever, is obviously... 680 01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,540 Nesters: or even a specialized forum, like you mentioned, for audio. 681 01:01:07,620 --> 01:01:07,820 Nesters: Mm-hmm. 682 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:16,160 Nesters: Yeah, all those places, obviously, could be the audience for you if you're learning that specific skill and want to actually eventually also offer something. 683 01:01:16,180 --> 01:01:19,220 Charles: There's also, like, in-person communities. 684 01:01:19,420 --> 01:01:26,780 Charles: For example, like, a lot of these people on the audio side of things, there's also, like, conventions that they have every year. 685 01:01:26,960 --> 01:01:30,000 Charles: Like, there's the AES convention, Audio Engineer Society. 686 01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:31,640 Charles: That takes place every year. 687 01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,960 Charles: And a lot of these people are on the forum, but they also go to these big conventions. 688 01:01:35,200 --> 01:01:39,360 Charles: And those conventions attract a lot of people who aren't a part of these forums. 689 01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,200 Charles: And that's a big place you can have... 690 01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:52,800 Charles: all these people that attend it can get exposed to your skill set and your... basically, the value that you've been giving to these, you know, online communities. 691 01:01:52,920 --> 01:01:54,520 Charles: They finally get to experience it in person. 692 01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:58,920 Charles: And that makes them, like, want to get it for themselves. 693 01:01:58,920 --> 01:02:00,380 Charles: You know, they want to go buy your thing. 694 01:02:01,420 --> 01:02:04,380 Charles: Which is kind of a surprising source of conversion for a lot of people. 695 01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:07,460 Wiktor: Yeah, yeah. 696 01:02:07,660 --> 01:02:10,880 Wiktor: I mean, Victor, you had a question. 697 01:02:11,380 --> 01:02:13,700 Wiktor: No, I just want to thank for the answering. 698 01:02:14,040 --> 01:02:16,820 Charles: I was wondering if we didn't answer. 699 01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:19,460 Charles: I have a tendency, when I talk, to just go off on tangents. 700 01:02:19,580 --> 01:02:22,680 Charles: And I don't know if I'm actually... if I missed the question. 701 01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:23,320 Nesters: No, no. 702 01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:24,860 Nesters: All good. 703 01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:31,200 Nesters: I am actually trying to sometimes interject where I feel like maybe we need to, like, you know, wrap this one point up. 704 01:02:31,380 --> 01:02:33,160 Nesters: Yeah, bring it back on track, yeah. 705 01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:34,320 Nesters: Yeah, yeah. 706 01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:35,520 Nesters: But everything's been good, actually. 707 01:02:35,620 --> 01:02:37,320 Nesters: You've been giving really good answers, actually. 708 01:02:37,880 --> 01:02:40,420 Nesters: Very... even, like, very inspirational talk overall. 709 01:02:40,720 --> 01:02:41,540 Nesters: Oh, thank you, man. 710 01:02:41,560 --> 01:02:47,620 Nesters: Because... yeah, because you explained that path, actually, a lot of people struggle with. 711 01:02:47,700 --> 01:02:55,740 Nesters: And also, what Daniel has mentioned many times, by the way, in his speeches, videos, and, like, his interviews. 712 01:02:55,740 --> 01:02:59,400 Nesters: And also, his written content in the community, as well. 713 01:02:59,740 --> 01:03:01,440 Nesters: Like, it's also those things, you know. 714 01:03:01,500 --> 01:03:03,320 Nesters: You just learn a skill, and you teach someone else. 715 01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:12,180 Nesters: And, by the way, your approach has actually been very similar to the person we should not name, as some people say. 716 01:03:12,480 --> 01:03:15,240 Nesters: Like, your approach has been... and you asked about what he's doing. 717 01:03:15,300 --> 01:03:17,400 Nesters: He's actually just doing all kinds of, like, his... 718 01:03:19,380 --> 01:03:23,700 Nesters: Because he was interested in, basically, the digital nomad path. 719 01:03:23,700 --> 01:03:26,820 Nesters: So he actually created a website for that, the Nomad List. 720 01:03:27,140 --> 01:03:30,220 Nesters: So, basically, that would list all the locations and everything, basically. 721 01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:35,760 Nesters: And then he did the remote work stuff, like a job board, etc. 722 01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,720 Nesters: Basically, like, I'm not going to explain everything he did. 723 01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:43,500 Nesters: But he basically... whatever also was interesting to him, he just built a solution for it as a software. 724 01:03:44,020 --> 01:03:46,600 Nesters: Oh, so he's, like, a developer? 725 01:03:47,840 --> 01:03:48,940 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, he's a developer. 726 01:03:49,200 --> 01:03:50,340 Nesters: Yeah, he's a developer. 727 01:03:50,460 --> 01:03:52,480 Nesters: So he's just been building stuff like that. 728 01:03:52,580 --> 01:03:52,960 Nesters: Oh, okay. 729 01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:56,600 Nesters: Like, recently, yeah, because you're not on X, I guess, that much. 730 01:03:57,080 --> 01:04:02,520 Nesters: And in the community, in this community, not the audio community, you don't really know, yeah. 731 01:04:02,600 --> 01:04:07,840 Nesters: But the most recent stuff was where he created, like, this white-coded game, you know. 732 01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:12,260 Nesters: And it was doing $50,000 a month, technically, in revenue. 733 01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:12,780 Nesters: Wow. 734 01:04:14,880 --> 01:04:16,100 Charles: Good job to the... 735 01:04:16,100 --> 01:04:18,500 Prince: That was just white-coded in a couple hours, yeah. 736 01:04:19,420 --> 01:04:22,940 Prince: It's not $50,000 if it's only one month, you know. 737 01:04:22,960 --> 01:04:26,300 Prince: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a problem with X nowadays, yeah. 738 01:04:26,460 --> 01:04:29,360 Nesters: Yeah, he did it in a month, technically, not a month. 739 01:04:29,620 --> 01:04:31,140 Nesters: But yeah, he did the $50,000. 740 01:04:31,640 --> 01:04:33,100 Nesters: That's pretty incredible. 741 01:04:34,860 --> 01:04:37,460 Nesters: Yeah, I guess Adam had a question? 742 01:04:39,560 --> 01:04:42,300 Nesters: Or Vlad, whoever wants to speak. 743 01:04:42,320 --> 01:04:44,000 Adam: Yeah, I had a question about pricing. 744 01:04:45,740 --> 01:04:46,600 Adam: Can you hear me? 745 01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:48,060 Nesters: Yeah, yeah. 746 01:04:49,620 --> 01:04:54,560 Adam: I noticed that the pricing for your Cordy app is only $25. 747 01:04:55,020 --> 01:04:56,480 Adam: That's like a one-time fee, right? 748 01:04:57,260 --> 01:04:58,400 Charles: Yeah, it's a one-time fee. 749 01:04:59,700 --> 01:05:05,400 Charles: It used to be $10, and then I was told, you got to raise your price. 750 01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:08,180 Charles: You're totally undervaluing what it's worth. 751 01:05:08,780 --> 01:05:12,500 Charles: I didn't believe it until I did it, and then people kept paying for it. 752 01:05:12,500 --> 01:05:16,420 Charles: I was like, oh, okay, I guess it is worth this much money. 753 01:05:17,280 --> 01:05:20,640 Nesters: What was the conversion drop from $10 to $25? 754 01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,980 Nesters: I'm not sure, because it was still like a word of mouth. 755 01:05:26,060 --> 01:05:29,960 Nesters: Yeah, we should look at that, because if there's no drop, you need to continue raising. 756 01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,900 Nesters: Like, $25 sounds way too low, by the way, for what use? 757 01:05:34,060 --> 01:05:41,880 Adam: I mean, honestly, that's when I was looking at this price, where I'm like, it's $25 for a one-time fee. 758 01:05:42,040 --> 01:05:43,340 Adam: Am I misunderstanding? 759 01:05:43,940 --> 01:05:48,860 Adam: Yeah, and we adjust for inflation as well. 760 01:05:49,140 --> 01:05:53,240 Charles: I think it's been $25 since 2016, I think. 761 01:05:53,580 --> 01:05:55,500 Adam: You could do a thing of... 762 01:05:57,560 --> 01:06:05,560 Adam: I've seen some developers, they're like, every 10 sales, the price goes up like $1 or something, or like $10. 763 01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:10,100 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, it's harder with Gumroad, but in terms of... 764 01:06:10,100 --> 01:06:20,740 Nesters: I completely agree, you should be likely increasing the price even from $25, because after all I've listened to and how you actually get... 765 01:06:20,740 --> 01:06:29,960 Nesters: Obviously, the space has changed since you started back then, and when it was $10, but I think even then, the price probably was way too low for what you offered. 766 01:06:30,320 --> 01:06:34,640 Nesters: I mean, it was an easy buy-in, and maybe initially you needed to get it to those YouTubers, etc. 767 01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:43,480 Nesters: But at some point, I think you had the saturation in the market, where it didn't matter that you have the $10 anymore, you could just go like $30 right away or something. 768 01:06:43,900 --> 01:06:44,380 Nesters: Probably. 769 01:06:45,840 --> 01:06:49,140 Charles: I don't think I thought I would... 770 01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:52,080 Charles: I feel like I'm at a sweet spot where people are... 771 01:06:52,080 --> 01:06:55,780 Charles: It's not a hard ask to ask them to get $25. 772 01:06:59,360 --> 01:06:59,840 Adam: Right. 773 01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:01,540 Nesters: Yeah, I just felt like you're... 774 01:07:02,020 --> 01:07:03,100 Nesters: Raise the price, though. 775 01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:09,600 Nesters: Yeah, I felt like your main customer base was closer to the... 776 01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:17,220 Nesters: Actually, a little bit more on the professional side, as in less on the amateur side, because $25 maybe is the amateur pricing. 777 01:07:17,280 --> 01:07:21,620 Nesters: Maybe you need that for the app pro now, and then it goes up to $99. 778 01:07:22,140 --> 01:07:22,840 Nesters: Oh, that's a good idea. 779 01:07:23,900 --> 01:07:27,460 Nesters: Yeah, I think you need a pro version then, and just raise the price on that. 780 01:07:27,980 --> 01:07:30,720 Nesters: And that will be targeted towards the professionals. 781 01:07:30,720 --> 01:07:33,160 Nesters: Yeah, that's a good idea. 782 01:07:36,940 --> 01:07:40,080 Nesters: Yeah, so you're doing the conversion optimization now. 783 01:07:40,620 --> 01:07:42,760 Nesters: And another idea is doing the SEO, right? 784 01:07:42,840 --> 01:07:45,220 Nesters: Both for YouTube and Google, etc. 785 01:07:45,220 --> 01:07:48,280 Nesters: You could do SEO to get the extra traffic volume in. 786 01:07:48,820 --> 01:07:49,760 Nesters: I'm pretty sure you could... 787 01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:59,660 Nesters: Pretty sure you might have some backlinks already to your site that actually provide the value for you to reach people with SEO, because obviously... 788 01:07:59,660 --> 01:08:01,620 Nesters: Because your domain is like, what, 10 years? 789 01:08:01,780 --> 01:08:05,520 Nesters: I haven't checked, actually, but your domain should be like 10 years old. 790 01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,080 Nesters: I'm not sure if it was pointing to Gumroad for a long time. 791 01:08:08,260 --> 01:08:10,300 Nesters: I'm not entirely sure what was going on. 792 01:08:10,460 --> 01:08:11,220 Nesters: I can check later. 793 01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:17,000 Nesters: Don't really want to do it during the call, but I'm pretty sure you have some backlinks, etc. 794 01:08:17,180 --> 01:08:18,440 Nesters: that will raise your... 795 01:08:19,340 --> 01:08:24,260 Nesters: how easy it will be for you to rank on specific keywords, especially considering the niche. 796 01:08:25,980 --> 01:08:30,900 Nesters: Yeah, so you probably can do SEO for YouTube and the Google. 797 01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:33,440 Nesters: I mean, AI, Google, whatever, any search engine. 798 01:08:35,440 --> 01:08:40,160 Nesters: And yeah, and work on the pricing, perhaps, especially with the offer. 799 01:08:40,160 --> 01:08:41,880 Charles: Those are really interesting ideas. 800 01:08:42,060 --> 01:08:51,100 Charles: So I actually had a question for you, which was relating to the whole idea of you have a community and you establish value in it and you establish a credibility in it. 801 01:08:51,740 --> 01:09:07,600 Charles: Like, since this experts idea has been introduced into SmallBets, I'm curious if that has resulted in, like, increased work, you know, be it contracting or increased course sales for any of the people who are doing... 802 01:09:09,820 --> 01:09:11,440 Charles: being listed as an expert. 803 01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:15,120 Nesters: I think most of... 804 01:09:15,120 --> 01:09:34,020 Nesters: Yeah, I think most of us who are the resident experts in SmallBets for anyone missing the context who's not part of the community or hasn't been in SmallBets, there's now the resident experts in the community who are basically people who will answer your questions on specific topics if someone asks them. 805 01:09:34,160 --> 01:09:36,700 Nesters: Basically, you can tag the person and just ask a question. 806 01:09:37,220 --> 01:09:42,460 Nesters: Usually, the person responds within a couple hours or usually up to 24 hours, maybe. 807 01:09:42,980 --> 01:09:51,760 Nesters: But the idea is that basically there's someone to help because we were already sharing advice and people were already helping each other, providing feedback for free. 808 01:09:52,260 --> 01:09:58,040 Nesters: But now it's more like there's an incentive for specific people to provide better quality answers, basically. 809 01:09:58,280 --> 01:10:03,240 Nesters: So the advice given to people is of better quality and maybe more extensive. 810 01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:10,280 Nesters: And regarding that, for me personally, I have more people maybe reach out and they ask the questions which I answer. 811 01:10:10,500 --> 01:10:14,560 Nesters: I wouldn't say I necessarily have gotten more work that way yet. 812 01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:21,020 Nesters: And I think it was partially because I was already in the community for a long time, just like many of the other experts. 813 01:10:21,400 --> 01:10:32,540 Nesters: So there's not a big shift in terms of how most of the people, I guess, are viewed by the rest of the community who's active there. 814 01:10:33,240 --> 01:10:39,460 Nesters: I think we probably need to work a little bit on actually advertising that resident expert thing even still. 815 01:10:39,680 --> 01:10:44,340 Nesters: Yeah, just so people actually check in, ask the questions more frequently. 816 01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:50,440 Nesters: And also just because that also leads to them interacting with others and getting even more feedback. 817 01:10:50,900 --> 01:10:56,040 Charles: So I'm really curious about how to get a community that you have to engage. 818 01:10:57,060 --> 01:11:03,080 Charles: Because one thing that I've thought about, I have over 20,000 customers from the... 819 01:11:03,080 --> 01:11:04,280 Charles: Like that's what 800k is. 820 01:11:04,620 --> 01:11:06,380 Charles: It's that many customers. 821 01:11:06,540 --> 01:11:09,160 Charles: And I'm like, all these people are trying to learn music theory. 822 01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:13,940 Charles: This should be so easy to set up a place for them to chat. 823 01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,360 Nesters: Have you sent any newsletters? 824 01:11:17,620 --> 01:11:20,140 Nesters: Because Gumroad offers that newsletter feature, right? 825 01:11:20,440 --> 01:11:21,860 Nesters: Have you sent any newsletters? 826 01:11:22,140 --> 01:11:24,580 Charles: No, I'm bad at writing copy. 827 01:11:24,700 --> 01:11:25,600 Charles: I'm good at writing code. 828 01:11:25,880 --> 01:11:27,340 Charles: I'm good at teaching people. 829 01:11:27,700 --> 01:11:37,100 Charles: But in terms of marketing and just writing copy and writing things that are engaging and want to make people stay on the page, I'm not good at that. 830 01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:38,440 Nesters: Yeah. 831 01:11:41,460 --> 01:11:42,980 Nesters: Okay, we can... 832 01:11:42,980 --> 01:11:47,980 Nesters: Yeah, you definitely should either outsource or actually try to figure it out. 833 01:11:48,060 --> 01:11:54,160 Nesters: But maybe this is the one topic you actually don't want to figure out, because I get it that you like the programming, you like the audio. 834 01:11:54,340 --> 01:11:57,380 Nesters: Maybe you just don't like tinkering with the copy as much. 835 01:11:57,640 --> 01:12:06,500 Nesters: And I think that's been, I guess, your success story that you can focus on the things you enjoy and then teach others how to do it or make a tool for them. 836 01:12:06,500 --> 01:12:09,940 Nesters: But maybe these topics are just not the ones that interest you. 837 01:12:10,180 --> 01:12:15,220 Nesters: And going down that path will actually just demotivate you from doing it. 838 01:12:15,220 --> 01:12:19,280 Charles: Yeah, because the success of those is so measurable. 839 01:12:20,060 --> 01:12:21,080 Charles: But the success of... 840 01:12:22,340 --> 01:12:24,500 Charles: I don't mean the success of... 841 01:12:25,020 --> 01:12:29,080 Charles: The success of focusing on marketing is so successful. 842 01:12:29,300 --> 01:12:30,300 Charles: But it's so... 843 01:12:30,960 --> 01:12:32,160 Charles: I'm sorry, I'm saying the wrong words. 844 01:12:32,620 --> 01:12:37,880 Charles: The success of an effort at marketing is so quantifiable. 845 01:12:38,660 --> 01:12:42,880 Charles: At the same time, it's also so easy to see how much it's not working. 846 01:12:43,440 --> 01:12:47,620 Charles: And that is the part that I'm like, I don't want to be anywhere near that. 847 01:12:47,980 --> 01:12:51,260 Charles: Let me just be near the things I know I'm going to be successful at. 848 01:12:51,460 --> 01:12:54,120 Charles: And that's kind of been a flaw of mine that I've carried my whole life. 849 01:12:54,840 --> 01:12:56,820 Charles: And it's also like, it's made me really good at coding. 850 01:12:56,940 --> 01:13:02,820 Charles: It's made me really good at the music stuff, making the tutorial videos. 851 01:13:02,940 --> 01:13:06,620 Charles: It's made me good at that, but it's also made me not good at facing... 852 01:13:06,620 --> 01:13:23,320 Charles: If I spend $1,000 on Facebook marketing, and it produces $100 in sales, it makes me not good at looking at that data and saying like, okay, cool, how do we pivot from that so we can try it again with another $1,000 and this time turn it into $2,000 of sales? 853 01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:27,520 Charles: That's the kind of stuff where I just get scared of doing it. 854 01:13:29,980 --> 01:13:39,900 Nesters: Honestly, I think that's a challenge for many, and especially in like solo entrepreneur space, it seems to be a challenge, like especially like the marketing aspect of that. 855 01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,120 Nesters: And ads, especially because you're putting your money on the line as well. 856 01:13:43,420 --> 01:13:51,240 Nesters: It's not no longer just maybe the ego thing of failing and seeing like how you actually maybe feel like you can't do it. 857 01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:55,060 Nesters: But it's also the fact that you're just losing money if you actually fail like that. 858 01:13:55,460 --> 01:13:57,120 Nesters: That makes it scary. 859 01:13:57,120 --> 01:14:05,860 Charles: Well, I think the other thing, and it's making me think of this article that I read when I was living in a dorm room with three other dudes. 860 01:14:07,380 --> 01:14:09,200 Charles: And one of them had like a subscription to like... 861 01:14:11,020 --> 01:14:18,220 Charles: it was some like rich person's magazine, like talking about like really expensive clothes and watches and whatnot. 862 01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:29,720 Charles: And they had an interview with some CEO who was like, they were focused on marketing and they were like, I'm pretty sure that whatever company you give me, I can double their return. 863 01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:34,620 Charles: And what they were talking about was going from like a 1% conversion rate to a 2% conversion rate. 864 01:14:35,840 --> 01:14:39,680 Charles: And I was like, is that success? 865 01:14:40,160 --> 01:14:42,300 Nesters: Like, how is that a measurable improvement? 866 01:14:42,840 --> 01:14:51,040 Nesters: By the way, when we talk like 1% to 2% conversion, it sounds a small number, right? 867 01:14:51,100 --> 01:14:52,620 Nesters: But that's literally double. 868 01:14:52,620 --> 01:15:00,780 Charles: I know, but it's like, are you succeeding if your product is only converting 1% of people to then converting 2% of them? 869 01:15:00,960 --> 01:15:02,760 Charles: And this is why I'm just ignorant about that. 870 01:15:02,860 --> 01:15:03,830 Charles: I don't know if that is... 871 01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:06,220 Nesters: Yeah, I think that's because... 872 01:15:07,100 --> 01:15:08,920 Nesters: Okay, I can give you more context on it. 873 01:15:09,260 --> 01:15:14,620 Nesters: Average conversion rate in e-commerce, for example, is about 2% to 3%. 874 01:15:14,620 --> 01:15:16,980 Nesters: That's the average conversion rate. 875 01:15:17,240 --> 01:15:19,900 Nesters: Now that's like an aggregate average. 876 01:15:19,900 --> 01:15:30,140 Nesters: So obviously, the person who's returning to your store to buy another, let's say, another package of coffee beans or something, they'll be converting at like 50%. 877 01:15:30,740 --> 01:15:31,860 Nesters: They're just coming to buy. 878 01:15:32,040 --> 01:15:33,840 Nesters: Maybe something distracts them, they don't buy. 879 01:15:33,920 --> 01:15:39,500 Nesters: But they're coming there to buy at like, I don't know, 10%, 20%, 30% conversion rate based on their session count. 880 01:15:39,940 --> 01:15:41,220 Nesters: But they're just there to buy. 881 01:15:41,880 --> 01:16:00,720 Nesters: But for the cold audience, for example, that's one thing that I have with SEO, where I'm like, there are people who will optimize your SEO and just generate loads of useless blog posts or pages that will basically just be targeting keywords that are not related to your product, 882 01:16:00,800 --> 01:16:01,300 Nesters: maybe even. 883 01:16:01,480 --> 01:16:04,300 Nesters: And they will get you the traffic, they'll get you the clicks to your website. 884 01:16:04,960 --> 01:16:07,860 Nesters: But there will be zero conversion to your product. 885 01:16:08,080 --> 01:16:09,980 Nesters: They might not even convert to your newsletter. 886 01:16:10,560 --> 01:16:23,160 Nesters: So sometimes I see it in e-commerce too, that even in the related topics, the actual conversion rate, for example, from the blog posts might be literally 0% to maybe 0.1%, sometimes maybe 0.5%. 887 01:16:23,740 --> 01:16:30,020 Nesters: And rarely there's like these huge hit blog articles that actually sell at like 3%, 5%. 888 01:16:30,500 --> 01:16:32,400 Nesters: You know, that's pretty rare. 889 01:16:33,380 --> 01:16:43,740 Nesters: However, if you focus on the conversions, the traffic that's coming already directly to the product page, there you might actually see a 5%, 10% conversion rate. 890 01:16:44,270 --> 01:16:50,020 Nesters: When a person lands from Google, let's say, directly to the product page of something that's relevant to them. 891 01:16:50,260 --> 01:16:52,720 Nesters: Is it possible to see those conversions on Gumroad? 892 01:16:54,440 --> 01:16:58,760 Nesters: Yeah, well, on Gumroad, you can basically divide the sales. 893 01:16:59,960 --> 01:17:04,160 Nesters: You can divide the sales with the impressions, right? 894 01:17:04,240 --> 01:17:06,420 Nesters: You're going to get the basically conversion rate. 895 01:17:06,680 --> 01:17:12,700 Nesters: If you just divide the sales by the total impressions on your page. 896 01:17:13,160 --> 01:17:17,120 Nesters: That's how you could check the time periods where you had the previous pricing and the new pricing. 897 01:17:17,260 --> 01:17:19,600 Nesters: You could probably still get some data out of it. 898 01:17:21,080 --> 01:17:25,480 Nesters: Also, you can set up the pixel for something like Google Analytics and Gumroad. 899 01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:27,800 Nesters: So that would make it much easier. 900 01:17:28,020 --> 01:17:30,020 Nesters: I did set that up a long time ago. 901 01:17:31,560 --> 01:17:32,760 Nesters: Yeah, that would help you. 902 01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:37,140 Nesters: Now, maybe you're not tracking the sales events. 903 01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:38,100 Nesters: I'm not entirely sure. 904 01:17:38,540 --> 01:17:48,080 Charles: Well, on the Gumroad Analytics thing, I'm looking at the per day thing now, and it's showing me today is 4.4%. 905 01:17:49,700 --> 01:17:52,480 Charles: A couple of days ago, it was 3.5%. 906 01:17:52,480 --> 01:17:54,100 Charles: Some days, it was 1%. 907 01:17:54,100 --> 01:17:57,080 Charles: Another day, it was 4.5%, 3%. 908 01:17:57,080 --> 01:17:59,740 Charles: I'm in the 3% to 5% range. 909 01:18:00,140 --> 01:18:01,640 Nesters: That's a decent conversion rate. 910 01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:06,440 Nesters: In e-commerce, obviously, 2% to 3% is average. 911 01:18:06,700 --> 01:18:10,160 Nesters: But the good conversion rate there would be 5% to 10%. 912 01:18:10,160 --> 01:18:12,400 Nesters: But that's still rare. 913 01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:16,380 Nesters: That's usually niche products do very well. 914 01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:24,160 Nesters: Your app, for example, has 3%, 4%, which maybe could even be 5%, 6%, 7% if you optimize something there. 915 01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:30,580 Nesters: But that would already be a good conversion rate for some niche product, for example. 916 01:18:31,140 --> 01:18:37,540 Nesters: Because I would say probably 10%, 15% would be an upper limit where you could even push something. 917 01:18:37,540 --> 01:18:41,600 Nesters: And that would be basically that you already have that more targeted traffic. 918 01:18:41,740 --> 01:18:45,040 Nesters: It's not like a completely cold audience coming from God knows where. 919 01:18:46,300 --> 01:18:48,300 Nesters: Because it depends on the audience, right? 920 01:18:48,340 --> 01:18:57,860 Nesters: If it's a warm audience, people who know you, who have been recommended to come to you and buy your app, or is that just a completely cold audience? 921 01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:06,300 Nesters: Just browse something on Google, they landed on your page because your page was, for example, ranking number two or number three for something. 922 01:19:06,300 --> 01:19:07,560 Nesters: They came to your page. 923 01:19:08,120 --> 01:19:10,760 Nesters: They will not convert right away. 924 01:19:10,900 --> 01:19:14,260 Nesters: That's why you sometimes want to get them in the newsletter so they get in the funnel. 925 01:19:14,480 --> 01:19:16,540 Nesters: You tell them about your app. 926 01:19:16,940 --> 01:19:23,320 Nesters: Maybe you send a welcome sequence telling them here's my app and here's a YouTube video of me using the app. 927 01:19:23,440 --> 01:19:25,780 Nesters: So you also provide the social proof. 928 01:19:26,240 --> 01:19:30,120 Nesters: Then you list... that's basically how the landing pages get built. 929 01:19:30,300 --> 01:19:36,980 Nesters: And you probably have enough testimonials you could pull out from people who said, like, oh, amazing app. 930 01:19:37,040 --> 01:19:40,100 Nesters: It helped me learn this, you know, in this time, this amount of time. 931 01:19:40,400 --> 01:19:43,920 Nesters: That will be improving your copy, basically, including the social proof. 932 01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:47,320 Charles: Gotcha, okay. 933 01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:49,120 Nesters: Yeah, including testimonials. 934 01:19:49,760 --> 01:19:51,900 Nesters: Those are the elements that improve the conversion. 935 01:19:52,160 --> 01:19:59,000 Nesters: When they land on your page, even if you believe, like, oh, yeah, they might buy it if they like it. 936 01:19:59,060 --> 01:20:09,360 Nesters: But if you add that extra social proof, especially like adding names that they might know in the space, like maybe they watch their YouTube videos, they'll feel much safer buying from you. 937 01:20:09,540 --> 01:20:14,220 Nesters: And that could be that going from that 1% to 2% conversion rate, as you mentioned earlier. 938 01:20:15,320 --> 01:20:20,000 Nesters: That's why, like, yeah, it might sound bad to go from 1% to 2%. 939 01:20:20,000 --> 01:20:27,080 Nesters: But for them, it might be that they had gotten a lot of cold traffic that they were just pushing through ads. 940 01:20:27,460 --> 01:20:29,520 Nesters: And that conversion rate might be pretty low. 941 01:20:29,520 --> 01:20:31,420 Nesters: They've just been advertising everywhere. 942 01:20:31,880 --> 01:20:32,540 Charles: Right, okay. 943 01:20:33,900 --> 01:20:34,340 Charles: Interesting. 944 01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:37,820 Nesters: Yeah, so, yeah. 945 01:20:38,140 --> 01:20:42,220 Nesters: And this is the topic you basically have not ever wanted to get into, right? 946 01:20:42,600 --> 01:20:43,760 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, it's like... 947 01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:47,840 Charles: It could just be, like, my own... 948 01:20:49,020 --> 01:20:51,720 Charles: I want to say pride about, like, the thing is valuable. 949 01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:53,080 Charles: Why should I have to promote it? 950 01:20:53,600 --> 01:20:55,260 Charles: Like, I know it has inherent value. 951 01:20:55,560 --> 01:20:59,080 Charles: Why do I have to show other people and, like, throw it in their face? 952 01:20:59,080 --> 01:21:00,000 Charles: Like, this is valuable. 953 01:21:00,160 --> 01:21:00,860 Charles: You want this. 954 01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:02,040 Charles: Why do I have to do that? 955 01:21:02,420 --> 01:21:04,840 Charles: That could be just, like, a mindset issue that I've got. 956 01:21:05,540 --> 01:21:09,760 Charles: But, like, you know, that's why everybody loves Coca-Cola. 957 01:21:10,180 --> 01:21:11,980 Charles: That's why everybody loves Cheetos. 958 01:21:13,020 --> 01:21:16,960 Charles: It's bad for us, but it gets thrown in our face so much that everybody likes it. 959 01:21:17,940 --> 01:21:19,140 Nesters: Yeah, they got us early. 960 01:21:19,500 --> 01:21:21,900 Nesters: I remember, like, they were advertising to us. 961 01:21:22,260 --> 01:21:26,040 Nesters: I mean, I live in Latvia, by the way, the Eastern Nordic Europe. 962 01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:30,440 Nesters: I mean, Prince will say it's Eastern Europe, but whatever. 963 01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:37,860 Nesters: Anyway, yeah, we were thrown Coca-Cola ads in the 90s a lot, right? 964 01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:40,420 Nesters: And honestly, people didn't have money back then. 965 01:21:40,480 --> 01:21:42,240 Nesters: The Soviet Union fell apart. 966 01:21:43,140 --> 01:21:45,020 Nesters: Not many could actually buy Coca-Cola. 967 01:21:45,100 --> 01:21:45,940 Nesters: We had the stores. 968 01:21:46,300 --> 01:21:51,400 Nesters: It was still relatively cheap, but compared to the wages back then, it was actually pretty expensive. 969 01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:52,740 Nesters: Like a luxury item, almost? 970 01:21:53,860 --> 01:21:55,100 Nesters: No, not a luxury item. 971 01:21:55,100 --> 01:21:56,800 Nesters: It was not cheap. 972 01:21:57,000 --> 01:22:01,220 Nesters: So they wouldn't make money back necessarily right away on those ads, right? 973 01:22:01,440 --> 01:22:05,900 Nesters: But what they did was they showed all those Christmas ads with the Coca-Cola, etc. 974 01:22:06,060 --> 01:22:07,200 Nesters: You probably know them as well. 975 01:22:07,480 --> 01:22:09,340 Nesters: Oh, with the bears opening the bottles? 976 01:22:09,660 --> 01:22:20,320 Nesters: Yeah, what they did was they advertised early in the country, perhaps, recovering and basically growing their economy. 977 01:22:20,940 --> 01:22:27,840 Nesters: So as a kid, you watch those ads and then you grow up and you want to drink Coke because they were showing those ads when you were little. 978 01:22:28,080 --> 01:22:31,040 Nesters: Even if you didn't have money then, you have money now. 979 01:22:31,320 --> 01:22:33,160 Nesters: And the economy is doing much better. 980 01:22:33,700 --> 01:22:35,900 Nesters: The country joined the EU, etc. 981 01:22:36,580 --> 01:22:38,740 Nesters: Obviously, the region has been growing pretty well. 982 01:22:39,320 --> 01:22:42,280 Nesters: So that transition and then you were like, you have money now. 983 01:22:42,340 --> 01:22:43,180 Nesters: Now you're buying Coke. 984 01:22:43,260 --> 01:22:46,260 Nesters: Now you're buying all the stuff you wanted as a kid that you couldn't get. 985 01:22:46,260 --> 01:22:46,960 Nesters: Yeah, that's the point. 986 01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:48,920 Nesters: And that's advertising. 987 01:22:49,560 --> 01:22:50,960 Nesters: That's the conditioning. 988 01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:55,960 Nesters: That's the conditioning they do by just spending that ad money back then. 989 01:22:56,160 --> 01:23:02,640 Nesters: They want to condition you over these years that when you can afford it, you will buy it. 990 01:23:02,780 --> 01:23:04,520 Nesters: That is quite the long play right there. 991 01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:11,120 Nesters: Yeah, but you need to be literally that corporation that has so much money that you can just throw it at everything. 992 01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:13,860 Nesters: Because for us, it's not a feasible strategy. 993 01:23:14,340 --> 01:23:25,140 Nesters: For us, the feasible strategy is what you were talking about today, is going into a niche community and offering something to that niche and actually having that saturation in that niche. 994 01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:29,460 Nesters: And over time, people get familiar with your tool. 995 01:23:29,560 --> 01:23:31,820 Nesters: They see it in every video they look at. 996 01:23:32,080 --> 01:23:33,560 Nesters: And at some point, they buy it. 997 01:23:34,020 --> 01:23:37,240 Charles: And then the next step after that is like, okay, how do you expand beyond the niche? 998 01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:41,300 Charles: You got to convince all these other people that the niche is cool. 999 01:23:41,820 --> 01:23:43,380 Charles: And the niche is worth learning about. 1000 01:23:44,000 --> 01:23:48,520 Nesters: And this is where you kind of start to get into that marketing part. 1001 01:23:48,700 --> 01:24:02,140 Nesters: Because at some point when you go out of that small niche audience that is pretty warm and has like some kind of relationship with you, when you go to that colder audience, that's where the marketing matters more because you need to convince them. 1002 01:24:02,400 --> 01:24:17,680 Charles: Yeah, for me, like the most difficult thing has been here in the States, all these schools are cutting funding for banned programs, which means there's so many kids now that are not learning to play instruments, which means no one's interested in music. 1003 01:24:17,800 --> 01:24:19,120 Charles: So no one wants to learn to play. 1004 01:24:19,960 --> 01:24:22,120 Charles: So maybe it is time for you to start the community. 1005 01:24:22,660 --> 01:24:23,140 Charles: Maybe. 1006 01:24:23,820 --> 01:24:41,980 Charles: Or I mean, Apple did a great thing when they put GarageBand on the iPhones because now it made it possible for all these kids who aren't getting music programs in school to still be able to create music and learn to practice and just not be excluded from music because music is such a good thing for kids to learn. 1007 01:24:42,380 --> 01:24:44,620 Charles: It's so good for their brain and their fine motor skills. 1008 01:24:45,460 --> 01:24:47,220 Charles: We have a hand raised up by Prince. 1009 01:24:47,900 --> 01:24:48,000 Charles: Yeah. 1010 01:24:51,180 --> 01:24:53,680 Prince: Yeah, not surprised that the hand is raised by me. 1011 01:24:53,960 --> 01:25:07,380 Prince: I have a question regarding what you were saying earlier, quite earlier, regarding how you said, you were talking about how your niche was very, the way stuff works was very word of mouth. 1012 01:25:08,180 --> 01:25:18,560 Prince: There's music producers, there's not a lot of cool apps and when one starts using it, then everyone gets wind of it and then everyone starts using it. 1013 01:25:18,640 --> 01:25:29,060 Prince: I was wondering if by any chance you knew if there are other niches where it's quite similar to this and this is kind of like, this could be a strategy of how that would work. 1014 01:25:29,260 --> 01:25:35,300 Prince: I'm assuming most niches or sectors are not like this, but there probably are some that are quite similar. 1015 01:25:35,300 --> 01:25:36,900 Charles: The iPhone is that way. 1016 01:25:37,040 --> 01:25:39,460 Charles: Like one person gets an iPhone and now everybody has to get it. 1017 01:25:41,200 --> 01:25:43,960 Charles: Yeah, I mean, obviously that's not the niche anymore, but... 1018 01:25:44,520 --> 01:25:49,540 Prince: I was gonna say like, I mean, I'm not Apple and none of us here are, but just definitely, yeah. 1019 01:25:50,220 --> 01:25:51,560 Prince: Okay, that's a good point. 1020 01:25:51,760 --> 01:26:03,800 Nesters: I think the problem with the question is that he, I mean, Charles, I almost called him Matt again because he used it in the post. 1021 01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:05,440 Prince: I know, I keep doing that too. 1022 01:26:05,580 --> 01:26:06,460 Prince: Yeah, it's like Matt. 1023 01:26:09,020 --> 01:26:12,700 Nesters: It's also because of the name of the account. 1024 01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:15,780 Prince: Yeah, that's a great question. 1025 01:26:18,040 --> 01:26:35,060 Nesters: Yeah, but what Charles mentioned about that was that, I think that the question about the question is that thing about that only you can truly know what's the best thing in your niche kind of is like, because we're now talking about what niche that could be replicated in or something. 1026 01:26:35,280 --> 01:26:45,500 Nesters: But I guess Charles is expert in the things he learned during that time and which he was passionate about, but someone else might be passionate about something else and they kind of need to, you know, carve. 1027 01:26:45,840 --> 01:26:52,040 Nesters: They need to be looking at those opportunities where like, okay, I learned this small thing because I was passionate about it. 1028 01:26:52,100 --> 01:26:52,760 Nesters: Can I teach it? 1029 01:26:52,800 --> 01:26:56,060 Nesters: And that was basically how you got into those niches in a way. 1030 01:26:56,680 --> 01:26:59,960 Charles: In that sense, it's like I literally followed my passion. 1031 01:26:59,960 --> 01:27:01,720 Charles: Like I was a musician. 1032 01:27:01,880 --> 01:27:06,400 Charles: I had done that my entire life and I wanted to stay doing it. 1033 01:27:06,480 --> 01:27:09,760 Charles: And I was so curious about it and I wanted to learn everything I could about it. 1034 01:27:09,760 --> 01:27:16,180 Charles: But then I was like, all these people that I was around that didn't know as much about it as I did. 1035 01:27:16,220 --> 01:27:19,780 Charles: And I was like, well, let me make it accessible for you. 1036 01:27:20,060 --> 01:27:28,260 Charles: So that way I can like, I'm not basically, and this is gonna sound kind of weird, like this way I won't feel so lonely in my passion for this thing. 1037 01:27:28,260 --> 01:27:40,600 Charles: And so if you've got something like that, like say you're really passionate about cars, specifically you like rotary engines, you're gonna go find the Mazda RX-7 community and become super passionate about that. 1038 01:27:40,680 --> 01:27:47,460 Charles: And then you're gonna create a course that's about like, how do you properly maintain your RX-7 engine with its rotary system? 1039 01:27:47,640 --> 01:27:55,480 Charles: Or you're gonna become an insider about the rotary engine that they are building for whatever new version of the RX-7 they're gonna release. 1040 01:27:55,560 --> 01:27:56,560 Charles: As an example, you know? 1041 01:27:57,020 --> 01:28:03,220 Charles: Like that's how you find what you're super passionate about and then you go find the community for it and you become vocal in that community. 1042 01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:06,100 Prince: I love the way you said it. 1043 01:28:06,200 --> 01:28:09,280 Prince: It was, I don't want to be lonely in this journey I'm going on. 1044 01:28:09,380 --> 01:28:12,220 Prince: So I'm like, you know, talk about it, creating it. 1045 01:28:12,340 --> 01:28:15,440 Prince: And then, you know, maybe some people will finally join me. 1046 01:28:15,780 --> 01:28:16,180 Prince: Exactly. 1047 01:28:16,520 --> 01:28:19,100 Prince: You should actually, you should make a tweet about that. 1048 01:28:19,220 --> 01:28:23,560 Prince: And we should all retweet it, you know, make it like a really big thing, big trend of the day. 1049 01:28:23,560 --> 01:28:26,920 Charles: With my 200 followers on Twitter. 1050 01:28:27,980 --> 01:28:29,580 Prince: No, I think you might actually find it. 1051 01:28:29,780 --> 01:28:31,980 Prince: Daniel is friends with Elon and Sahil. 1052 01:28:32,080 --> 01:28:32,540 Prince: It's easy. 1053 01:28:32,840 --> 01:28:33,140 Charles: Okay. 1054 01:28:33,720 --> 01:28:35,680 Charles: Yeah, I got blocked by Sahil, so, you know. 1055 01:28:37,320 --> 01:28:38,560 Nesters: Oh, you got blocked? 1056 01:28:40,540 --> 01:28:47,520 Nesters: Aren't you like literally one of the, his, I mean, not like top creator, but you're pretty good, pretty high up in his lifetime revenue, no? 1057 01:28:47,560 --> 01:28:48,340 Nesters: Yeah, I'm in that top 200. 1058 01:28:48,340 --> 01:28:49,480 Nesters: Why did he block you? 1059 01:28:50,180 --> 01:28:56,840 Charles: Uh, he didn't, I was, I think I was too aggressive in like my asking for feature requests. 1060 01:28:57,840 --> 01:29:01,040 Charles: Um, kind of taking forum boards about that. 1061 01:29:01,080 --> 01:29:02,280 Charles: Like, why doesn't government have this? 1062 01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:02,920 Charles: Can we get this? 1063 01:29:02,980 --> 01:29:05,640 Charles: Can we get, you know, make it MailChimp, make it do all this other stuff. 1064 01:29:06,620 --> 01:29:08,380 Charles: Did you ask him for lower commissions? 1065 01:29:08,620 --> 01:29:09,960 Charles: I didn't. 1066 01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:13,100 Prince: Okay, that's what I'm... 1067 01:29:13,100 --> 01:29:15,800 Nesters: No, the commissions were actually much lower back then when he started. 1068 01:29:16,120 --> 01:29:16,240 Nesters: Yeah. 1069 01:29:17,020 --> 01:29:17,520 Prince: Oh, okay. 1070 01:29:18,240 --> 01:29:18,640 Nesters: Oh, yeah. 1071 01:29:18,840 --> 01:29:20,040 Nesters: Have you, like, how do you feel? 1072 01:29:20,100 --> 01:29:21,460 Nesters: Okay, let's get into that. 1073 01:29:21,780 --> 01:29:25,100 Nesters: Because you're literally having licenses issued through Gumroad. 1074 01:29:25,300 --> 01:29:26,800 Nesters: So it's 10% now. 1075 01:29:27,760 --> 01:29:33,920 Nesters: Have you, after it went to 10%, have you felt like you want to actually like switch because you're selling software? 1076 01:29:34,360 --> 01:29:38,340 Charles: I haven't found anybody that can, that has the workflow system. 1077 01:29:38,640 --> 01:29:41,400 Charles: Like I'm too embedded in Gumroad system to pull out of it. 1078 01:29:41,820 --> 01:29:45,900 Charles: And I'm, I'm basically just ignoring the fee that they charge. 1079 01:29:45,900 --> 01:29:53,780 Charles: Like, you know, kind of putting my fingers in my ears and going, la, la, la, la, la, I'm not, I'm not paying attention to this 10% that I'm giving you every time I get a sale. 1080 01:29:54,440 --> 01:29:57,660 Charles: I guess it's like 12 and a half percent because of the credit card commission. 1081 01:29:57,720 --> 01:29:59,560 Charles: I mean, yeah, yeah, it's higher. 1082 01:29:59,740 --> 01:30:00,340 Nesters: It's 10 plus. 1083 01:30:00,500 --> 01:30:00,620 Nesters: Yeah. 1084 01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:06,580 Nesters: Yeah, but after, but after you raise your price, you get the throw. 1085 01:30:06,860 --> 01:30:10,080 Nesters: Will you feel different if it's like 99 and you're paying 10%? 1086 01:30:10,080 --> 01:30:20,400 Charles: I mean, Gumroad solves a problem that I, I faced that problem once when I'm like, I first started and I was like, you know, who's going to collect the money? 1087 01:30:20,880 --> 01:30:21,680 Charles: Who's going to process it? 1088 01:30:21,680 --> 01:30:22,400 Charles: Now you're a loyal. 1089 01:30:22,640 --> 01:30:24,840 Charles: And now I'm just like, they solved it for me already. 1090 01:30:24,960 --> 01:30:26,120 Charles: I've been doing it for a decade. 1091 01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:41,420 Charles: I, I could go switch to some other company, but that would have such a big impact on the way my server backend is set up that interacts with the licenses, the way I distribute stuff, like the fact that they do the video hosting for basically free is pretty awesome. 1092 01:30:43,200 --> 01:30:49,780 Charles: You know, I, I, like at one time I was thinking about how can I do like private videos on YouTube and do I send people links to that? 1093 01:30:49,880 --> 01:30:56,220 Charles: So that way I can not, you know, upload anything to Gumroad and keep it like separate from that paywall. 1094 01:30:56,420 --> 01:31:04,260 Charles: And, but like, it just became, Gumroad just became so easy to use for those problems that I was like, it's, it's worth it. 1095 01:31:04,360 --> 01:31:05,680 Charles: It's, it's worth that 10%. 1096 01:31:05,680 --> 01:31:06,360 Charles: I don't care. 1097 01:31:06,360 --> 01:31:10,360 Charles: I'm just going to pay it because it solves all these other things that I've been, I'm good. 1098 01:31:10,800 --> 01:31:11,740 Charles: Does that make sense? 1099 01:31:12,720 --> 01:31:13,640 Nesters: Yeah, it makes sense. 1100 01:31:13,760 --> 01:31:27,720 Nesters: I was just asking because I want to figure out whether it's worth building something similar for something like, you know, Shopify, because Shopify actually is great for many things, but it's e-commerce as in more like physical products. 1101 01:31:27,720 --> 01:31:35,700 Nesters: It's not, it's not good for digital products, not necessarily, but there are, there are people selling through Shopify and issuing licenses. 1102 01:31:36,580 --> 01:31:48,680 Nesters: But I was just wondering whether it's also worth building something like that, like some of the Gumroad features for Shopify and then actually getting like those, you know, loyal, loyal fans who get embedded in your platform. 1103 01:31:49,020 --> 01:32:02,140 Charles: Well, for me, the biggest pain point is that you can, Gumroad's payment, Gumroad's license key, you can't say you're setting your quantity for a product to like five and get five license keys. 1104 01:32:02,240 --> 01:32:03,040 Charles: They don't do that. 1105 01:32:03,140 --> 01:32:07,080 Charles: And I've been asking them to do that for like, probably like seven or eight years. 1106 01:32:07,440 --> 01:32:13,620 Charles: And where that applies to me is when a school or a university reaches out and say, hey, we got 10 workstations, can we get 10 licenses? 1107 01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:15,800 Charles: And I say, yes, you absolutely can. 1108 01:32:16,740 --> 01:32:18,180 Charles: But you got to buy them one at a time. 1109 01:32:19,540 --> 01:32:21,760 Charles: How much of a deterrent is that for them? 1110 01:32:22,020 --> 01:32:22,820 Charles: I got to... 1111 01:32:22,820 --> 01:32:23,260 Nesters: Yeah, but you could... 1112 01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:24,500 Nesters: Yeah, sorry. 1113 01:32:24,700 --> 01:32:25,360 Charles: No, go ahead, what were you saying? 1114 01:32:25,900 --> 01:32:36,900 Nesters: Yeah, I wanted to say, have you tried doing a different workflow where you basically sell it through Stripe or something, those 10? 1115 01:32:37,000 --> 01:32:37,780 Nesters: I haven't. 1116 01:32:38,200 --> 01:32:38,900 Charles: That's a good idea. 1117 01:32:39,120 --> 01:32:40,960 Charles: But it's daunting for me. 1118 01:32:41,040 --> 01:32:44,140 Charles: And I'm like, you know what, let me just stick to the audio coding and making courses. 1119 01:32:44,860 --> 01:32:49,800 Charles: I don't want to mess up something that's working by trying to integrate all that stuff. 1120 01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:50,920 Charles: I probably should. 1121 01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:56,380 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, if you have those bulk orders, you probably should find a workflow that works for you. 1122 01:32:56,460 --> 01:32:59,600 Nesters: I mean, it's not like Stripe is actually very easy to integrate. 1123 01:32:59,820 --> 01:33:02,740 Nesters: It's like the easiest payment processor you can integrate. 1124 01:33:03,020 --> 01:33:05,940 Nesters: The difference is it's not like this like Gumroad type of platform. 1125 01:33:05,980 --> 01:33:08,660 Nesters: It's more like it's easy to collect payments. 1126 01:33:08,660 --> 01:33:10,780 Nesters: And you have that API with the webhooks. 1127 01:33:10,860 --> 01:33:13,260 Nesters: So you basically can integrate with your backend easily, easy. 1128 01:33:13,460 --> 01:33:18,340 Nesters: And that's basically, you know, that's an easy to collect payments because they have a hosted checkout. 1129 01:33:18,620 --> 01:33:19,300 Nesters: They have a... 1130 01:33:19,300 --> 01:33:20,360 Nesters: Yeah, so... 1131 01:33:20,360 --> 01:33:24,400 Charles: Usually the workaround that I do is I just say, send me a PayPal. 1132 01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:30,880 Charles: And then I go in, like, I just write a script, maybe via Bash or something. 1133 01:33:31,020 --> 01:33:33,320 Charles: And it literally uses the... 1134 01:33:34,320 --> 01:33:36,680 Charles: It generates the URL for each... 1135 01:33:37,340 --> 01:33:42,560 Charles: It basically just generates the URLs that I need to click to do the sale for 0%. 1136 01:33:42,560 --> 01:33:48,020 Charles: Like it sends a 0%, creates a 0% coupon code with like a unique code for it. 1137 01:33:48,100 --> 01:33:49,280 Charles: It does like, it'll do 10 of them. 1138 01:33:49,280 --> 01:33:52,040 Charles: And then it gives me the list of links. 1139 01:33:52,100 --> 01:33:54,520 Charles: And I just click them and it auto enters their email address. 1140 01:33:54,640 --> 01:33:59,100 Charles: And I basically do the redemption of all 10 or 20 or whatever. 1141 01:33:59,440 --> 01:34:00,260 Charles: And it works. 1142 01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:01,760 Charles: It's just, you know, kind of manual. 1143 01:34:02,100 --> 01:34:02,980 Charles: It's not ideal. 1144 01:34:03,720 --> 01:34:08,020 Charles: But, you know, the customer gets to interact with me, which means it feels personal for them. 1145 01:34:08,340 --> 01:34:13,860 Charles: They feel like they're not talking to a computer or just some nameless, you know, customer service agent. 1146 01:34:13,940 --> 01:34:16,600 Charles: They're actually talking with the person who built the thing. 1147 01:34:16,700 --> 01:34:18,740 Charles: And, you know, there's that aspect to it. 1148 01:34:19,280 --> 01:34:20,180 Charles: But it's not ideal. 1149 01:34:20,620 --> 01:34:27,440 Charles: And if Gumroad would add, like, when you buy five, buy a quantity five, you actually get five license keys, that would solve that problem. 1150 01:34:28,300 --> 01:34:28,440 Nesters: Yeah. 1151 01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:35,160 Nesters: The great thing now is that you can ask Daniel to request those features and he can maybe, you know, bring them up. 1152 01:34:35,720 --> 01:34:36,100 Nesters: Oh, yeah. 1153 01:34:36,220 --> 01:34:37,220 Nesters: Because now he's... 1154 01:34:37,220 --> 01:34:39,280 Nesters: Yeah, because now he's part of Gumroad, technically. 1155 01:34:39,480 --> 01:34:44,240 Nesters: I mean, he's not an employee of Gumroad, but he gets a little bit more access to... 1156 01:34:44,240 --> 01:34:45,980 Nesters: I mean, Sahil is his friend as well. 1157 01:34:45,980 --> 01:34:55,760 Nesters: So there is some elements to that, that you can actually request some features to Daniel and then see if he can maybe forward them. 1158 01:34:57,320 --> 01:35:00,060 Nesters: That could help with your problem. 1159 01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:03,200 Nesters: Obviously, I like that you're just, like, keeping it simple. 1160 01:35:03,340 --> 01:35:05,680 Nesters: You haven't even, like, focused on fixing all the issues. 1161 01:35:05,840 --> 01:35:10,160 Nesters: Although it sounds like you maybe should with the bulk orders, et cetera, because they are bigger. 1162 01:35:10,860 --> 01:35:12,620 Nesters: Yeah, money is money. 1163 01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:15,520 Charles: And I'm missing out on money by avoiding that. 1164 01:35:16,260 --> 01:35:16,840 Charles: Yeah. 1165 01:35:17,620 --> 01:35:19,680 Charles: And Vlad has a question. 1166 01:35:20,860 --> 01:35:21,440 Charles: I guess. 1167 01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:22,200 Vlad: Yeah, Vlad? 1168 01:35:23,120 --> 01:35:23,960 Vlad: I do. 1169 01:35:24,460 --> 01:35:29,420 Vlad: I wish I had Prince's sweet, charming British accent, but I don't. 1170 01:35:30,960 --> 01:35:32,660 Nesters: Yeah, I think you tried, right? 1171 01:35:32,720 --> 01:35:33,060 Nesters: You tried. 1172 01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:34,020 Vlad: Yeah. 1173 01:35:35,040 --> 01:35:38,080 Vlad: I was wondering, you've obviously been very successful. 1174 01:35:38,680 --> 01:35:40,680 Vlad: I'm a very low-level hobby musician. 1175 01:35:40,960 --> 01:35:45,440 Vlad: I've probably seen your software on, like, Rick Beato or one of his channels. 1176 01:35:45,980 --> 01:35:46,460 Charles: Oh, yeah. 1177 01:35:46,520 --> 01:35:47,620 Charles: He used it at one point. 1178 01:35:48,100 --> 01:35:49,000 Vlad: Yeah, sure. 1179 01:35:50,540 --> 01:35:52,300 Vlad: So, great job. 1180 01:35:52,480 --> 01:35:58,500 Vlad: This is, you know, a lot of people on small bets would dream of this kind of outcome. 1181 01:35:58,940 --> 01:36:06,060 Vlad: So, my question is, why did you join small bets in the first place? 1182 01:36:06,380 --> 01:36:07,980 Vlad: You just joined, like, last week, right? 1183 01:36:09,380 --> 01:36:11,720 Charles: No, I've been doing it for, like, a year and change. 1184 01:36:11,800 --> 01:36:12,640 Charles: I've just kind of been lurking. 1185 01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:16,560 Charles: Um, why did I join it? 1186 01:36:17,480 --> 01:36:19,680 Charles: I wanted access to Daniel. 1187 01:36:19,940 --> 01:36:28,480 Charles: When he was quarter-time product manager for Gumroad, I actually got to meet with him for a call to discuss Gumroad. 1188 01:36:28,640 --> 01:36:34,270 Charles: I think Gumroad at the time was doing, like, they wanted to talk to their, like, top... 1189 01:36:37,080 --> 01:36:43,260 Charles: like, a handful of people from their top 200 creators could get to talk with him because he was the new product manager. 1190 01:36:43,780 --> 01:36:52,960 Charles: And I was like, oh, man, I really want to talk to that guy because he is so much more successful at doing the entrepreneur thing than I am. 1191 01:36:53,440 --> 01:36:55,340 Charles: And it's... he's within reach. 1192 01:36:55,640 --> 01:36:58,740 Charles: I'm not... like, I'm only hanging out with musicians all the time. 1193 01:36:58,980 --> 01:37:05,120 Charles: Now I finally get access to somebody who's, you know, done 1.5 million dollars in sales for a course or whatnot. 1194 01:37:05,380 --> 01:37:07,040 Charles: This was, you know, like, two or three years ago. 1195 01:37:08,660 --> 01:37:15,460 Charles: And it was, like, well, here's the way I can get access to him for, like, I think it was, like, $149 or $129 when... 1196 01:37:15,460 --> 01:37:18,540 Charles: or maybe it was, like, $179 when this... when he first launched it. 1197 01:37:20,460 --> 01:37:24,840 Charles: I'm sure... I don't know if he was here, we could ask him to look up how long have I been a member of this. 1198 01:37:25,140 --> 01:37:28,720 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, I mean, in... I mean, Smallbits? 1199 01:37:29,800 --> 01:37:30,800 Nesters: Yeah, when did that launch? 1200 01:37:32,320 --> 01:37:33,800 Nesters: Oh, Smallbits launched in, like, 2021. 1201 01:37:34,400 --> 01:37:36,280 Nesters: Yeah, so I've been a member of it... 1202 01:37:38,140 --> 01:37:41,420 Nesters: Uh, officially, you're 2023, by the way, I just checked your account. 1203 01:37:41,520 --> 01:37:42,320 Nesters: Okay, well, there you go. 1204 01:37:42,640 --> 01:37:44,320 Charles: I've just been not active. 1205 01:37:44,460 --> 01:37:45,600 Nesters: Yeah, yeah, you've been lurking. 1206 01:37:45,740 --> 01:37:50,900 Nesters: And I... we saw your $750k in Gumroad before, like, the screenshot. 1207 01:37:51,240 --> 01:37:53,080 Nesters: And I was, like, I was even, like, what the hell? 1208 01:37:53,220 --> 01:37:54,980 Nesters: Like, you're just lurking around, you know? 1209 01:37:55,320 --> 01:37:56,660 Nesters: That's what I also wanted to... 1210 01:37:56,660 --> 01:37:59,620 Nesters: I didn't know how to contribute any value to it because of what I was doing. 1211 01:38:01,620 --> 01:38:02,180 Prince: What was that? 1212 01:38:02,740 --> 01:38:04,360 Prince: Charles, you were in the Discord, right? 1213 01:38:04,440 --> 01:38:05,180 Prince: In 2023? 1214 01:38:05,480 --> 01:38:06,500 Prince: Yeah, I was in the Discord. 1215 01:38:07,320 --> 01:38:09,100 Prince: Yeah, I'm pretty sure I remember you there. 1216 01:38:09,440 --> 01:38:13,160 Prince: And even then, I kept calling you Matt, because obviously you still had Mattcat. 1217 01:38:14,300 --> 01:38:16,200 Charles: That's probably not his name, but let's go with that. 1218 01:38:16,460 --> 01:38:19,780 Charles: I just didn't know how to contribute any value to the community. 1219 01:38:20,100 --> 01:38:21,420 Charles: Like, I was there to learn. 1220 01:38:22,380 --> 01:38:26,090 Charles: And even when I had done the success, I was like, what I'm teaching is... 1221 01:38:26,880 --> 01:38:26,880 You spam. 1222 01:38:27,140 --> 01:38:29,080 Charles: Have you seen what Nestor does every day? 1223 01:38:29,920 --> 01:38:31,680 Nesters: Yeah, I just do spamming, by the way. 1224 01:38:31,980 --> 01:38:34,260 Nesters: But yeah, but... 1225 01:38:34,260 --> 01:38:36,660 Nesters: Totally not my thing, just Nestor's, obviously. 1226 01:38:37,300 --> 01:38:38,460 Nesters: It's definitely not you. 1227 01:38:38,540 --> 01:38:41,540 Nesters: You didn't get the number two spammer, just by chance. 1228 01:38:43,260 --> 01:38:50,520 Nesters: Anyway, yeah, the thing is, I saw that screenshot a long time ago, what, a couple months or whatever it was when you shared. 1229 01:38:50,660 --> 01:38:55,120 Nesters: And I was like, there's just success stories that are not being shared. 1230 01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:56,820 Nesters: Because, for example, even their pricing. 1231 01:38:56,960 --> 01:39:00,040 Nesters: Like, you're pricing 10 bucks in the beginning and 25 for the app now. 1232 01:39:00,680 --> 01:39:08,360 Nesters: Like, honestly, you're selling yourself short, because if you increase the pricing, you probably would still have a good conversion rate. 1233 01:39:08,460 --> 01:39:10,480 Nesters: And you would have done more than Daniel in sales. 1234 01:39:10,800 --> 01:39:12,040 Nesters: Like, you probably would have. 1235 01:39:12,520 --> 01:39:14,860 Nesters: Well, I think his value proposition is more accessible. 1236 01:39:15,660 --> 01:39:18,460 Nesters: Yeah, I understand that point. 1237 01:39:19,340 --> 01:39:26,520 Nesters: Because you were even embedded in more of a niche audience, you also shouldn't sell yourself short, honestly. 1238 01:39:26,580 --> 01:39:28,440 Nesters: Your success story actually sounds great. 1239 01:39:28,640 --> 01:39:30,500 Nesters: And that's why I even invited you as a guest. 1240 01:39:30,640 --> 01:39:37,260 Nesters: Because I actually felt like, maybe you don't advertise yourself, but there's definitely something for the success. 1241 01:39:37,680 --> 01:39:41,960 Nesters: And you explained why you succeeded quite well today. 1242 01:39:42,340 --> 01:39:45,380 Nesters: I mean, at least, you know, we could pick up on the story. 1243 01:39:45,800 --> 01:39:48,560 Nesters: So definitely shouldn't sell yourself short. 1244 01:39:48,880 --> 01:39:56,900 Nesters: And actually, your value to the community is actually providing those stories, the way you did those things, and whatever you did as well today. 1245 01:39:57,080 --> 01:39:59,280 Nesters: You know, like, how you did it, what was your approach? 1246 01:39:59,640 --> 01:40:05,080 Nesters: Like, that's because one of the values you provide is that you have the social proof of actually doing the sales. 1247 01:40:05,660 --> 01:40:12,040 Nesters: And you have some of that knowledge, and also just stories that inspire people. 1248 01:40:12,180 --> 01:40:12,780 Nesters: That's the value. 1249 01:40:13,160 --> 01:40:14,500 Nesters: That's one part of the value. 1250 01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:16,900 Nesters: It's not the knowledge necessarily that you need to share. 1251 01:40:17,020 --> 01:40:18,080 Nesters: It's the inspiration as well. 1252 01:40:18,220 --> 01:40:20,800 Nesters: Because then they might even be asking you questions. 1253 01:40:20,960 --> 01:40:28,160 Nesters: Okay, so then when I start asking questions, okay, I'm thinking about joining this community and maybe sharing my product. 1254 01:40:28,440 --> 01:40:31,120 Nesters: They can at least, you know, you can provide feedback for that as well. 1255 01:40:31,120 --> 01:40:33,180 Nesters: That's already just as inspiration. 1256 01:40:33,420 --> 01:40:34,840 Nesters: It's also knowledge on top of it. 1257 01:40:35,420 --> 01:40:35,760 Nesters: Gotcha. 1258 01:40:38,540 --> 01:40:40,300 Nesters: I never thought of that stuff that way. 1259 01:40:41,500 --> 01:40:45,340 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I obviously asked you to join today for a reason. 1260 01:40:45,500 --> 01:40:47,480 Nesters: I mean, it's literally technically the first episode. 1261 01:40:48,140 --> 01:40:50,080 Nesters: It's the second one with Daniel before. 1262 01:40:50,460 --> 01:40:53,720 Nesters: But yeah, I wanted to feature also some members from the community. 1263 01:40:54,120 --> 01:40:59,800 Nesters: And I think you did the right call by calling, like, starting to choose you. 1264 01:40:59,800 --> 01:41:01,940 Nesters: The story was great, by the way. 1265 01:41:02,060 --> 01:41:02,620 Charles: Oh, thank you. 1266 01:41:02,820 --> 01:41:08,200 Charles: Did anybody else want to, like, speak or chime in or share their comments? 1267 01:41:08,460 --> 01:41:11,880 Charles: Like, I didn't know what this was going to be like, but I was thinking... 1268 01:41:12,500 --> 01:41:13,240 Charles: We can continue, less... 1269 01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:15,200 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, if you have time, we can continue yapping. 1270 01:41:17,080 --> 01:41:21,040 Nesters: Yeah, if you have a little bit of time, we can still continue yapping if people have questions. 1271 01:41:21,440 --> 01:41:22,600 Nesters: We do have a hand raised. 1272 01:41:23,640 --> 01:41:25,400 Nesters: I think Victor wants to... is it Victor or Wictor? 1273 01:41:25,560 --> 01:41:26,760 Charles: I don't know how to... 1274 01:41:26,760 --> 01:41:28,080 Wiktor: Yeah, Polish. 1275 01:41:29,040 --> 01:41:32,200 Wiktor: It's like with V, like, it's Victor. 1276 01:41:32,600 --> 01:41:34,280 Wiktor: It's just Polish funny. 1277 01:41:34,580 --> 01:41:35,660 Wiktor: W is V. 1278 01:41:37,560 --> 01:41:40,060 Wiktor: Yeah, the app must flow. 1279 01:41:40,420 --> 01:41:57,460 Wiktor: So my question would be, like, because there is this balance, I think, between, like, passion and necessity, in a sense that, like, a lot of people when they were kids, especially in America, wanted to be astronauts. 1280 01:41:57,460 --> 01:42:09,480 Wiktor: You know, but, you know, like, people grow out of that, because, like, it's almost impossible to be an astronaut unless you're, like, in top one of one percent, you know. 1281 01:42:09,540 --> 01:42:13,660 Wiktor: So this is a clear example where, like, okay, like, it is... 1282 01:42:13,660 --> 01:42:25,260 Wiktor: It can be someone's passion, but realistically, it's probably not a good choice to go into it in, like, a more dedicated direction just because the odds, the cards are stacked against you. 1283 01:42:25,640 --> 01:42:44,760 Wiktor: So where would you say, you know, you're more, you said in the, you know, as the app, in the app that mostly it was passion for you, but have you ever had those thoughts, like, of, like, thinking about the how this skill is necessity? 1284 01:42:45,480 --> 01:42:47,200 Wiktor: Like, sorry, let me rephrase. 1285 01:42:48,300 --> 01:42:57,740 Wiktor: How do you wage in the necessity of your skills and what you're learning to your actual passion and how you are passionate about it? 1286 01:42:57,800 --> 01:43:00,240 Wiktor: You just go, like, I'm passionate about this. 1287 01:43:00,820 --> 01:43:02,000 Wiktor: Okay, I go into it. 1288 01:43:02,160 --> 01:43:10,280 Wiktor: Or do you think about it in a sense that, okay, does it bring value to people I, you know, I serve or I want to serve? 1289 01:43:11,480 --> 01:43:18,080 Charles: Um, I kind of let my passion lead me probably more than I should. 1290 01:43:19,840 --> 01:43:25,100 Charles: Um, like, right now, my current passion is like 80s metal guitar. 1291 01:43:25,960 --> 01:43:36,540 Charles: Um, and the, the way my brain works is like, it's so easy for me to go down a tunnel of the thing I'm passionate about and go all in on it. 1292 01:43:36,940 --> 01:43:41,480 Charles: And, um, it's kind of dangerous in that regard. 1293 01:43:42,100 --> 01:43:51,920 Charles: Like, because it means, like, I'll make some choices that are good for right now, but not good for, like, 10 years from now. 1294 01:43:52,560 --> 01:44:07,080 Charles: Um, like a perfect example is, like, I was, I'm so passionate about, you know, figuring out how to get slash chords working that I'm missing out on any sort of promotion that I should be doing. 1295 01:44:07,360 --> 01:44:26,620 Charles: Or, like, it's my focus on that musical problem to solve has delayed the launch of my, of the new version of my app for probably six months, which means I'm missing this opportunity to show a new audience, like, look at all these other new features I've built because I'm so, 1296 01:44:26,720 --> 01:44:32,020 Charles: like, focused and tunnel visioned on, like, slash chord notation and the detection of it. 1297 01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:35,600 Charles: Um, does that answer your question? 1298 01:44:35,820 --> 01:44:38,140 Charles: I think I went on a tangent and got lost. 1299 01:44:38,240 --> 01:44:39,480 Charles: Yeah, that's usually what happens with me. 1300 01:44:40,420 --> 01:44:43,200 Charles: Yeah, I mean, I guess, yeah, that definitely answers it. 1301 01:44:43,620 --> 01:44:50,920 Nesters: I think, yeah, I think I want to ask a follow-up question on top of Victor, because that's actually addressing part of the question. 1302 01:44:52,080 --> 01:45:11,560 Nesters: So do you sometimes, when you learn and then as you did the learning and teaching others, did you sometimes just, when you try to teach and you don't see, like, any feedback, do you sometimes quit some of the things just because they were not resonating with other audience and you'd be like, 1303 01:45:11,660 --> 01:45:13,820 Nesters: okay, I'm not going to even try to teach that more? 1304 01:45:14,160 --> 01:45:18,440 Nesters: Or do you actually just continue doing that just because you're learning it? 1305 01:45:19,460 --> 01:45:20,740 Nesters: That's a great question. 1306 01:45:22,920 --> 01:45:24,160 Charles: I think that... 1307 01:45:27,700 --> 01:45:29,800 Charles: I don't... I think I've just... 1308 01:45:30,880 --> 01:45:36,520 Charles: I would say it's not so much that I quit the thing, it's more that I just I stopped outwardly sharing about the thing. 1309 01:45:38,000 --> 01:45:40,660 Charles: Yeah, it's basically the same thing, I guess, as I... 1310 01:45:40,660 --> 01:45:42,320 Charles: Well, I feel like they're not the same thing. 1311 01:45:42,440 --> 01:45:45,680 Charles: Like, one is like, hey, I'm actually saying I'm not going to work on this anymore. 1312 01:45:45,860 --> 01:45:48,880 Charles: And the other thing is like, I'm going to keep working on it because I like it. 1313 01:45:48,960 --> 01:45:50,540 Charles: I'm just not going to tell anybody else about it. 1314 01:45:50,620 --> 01:45:53,580 Charles: And people are going to wonder, well, what is... what are you working on these days? 1315 01:45:53,700 --> 01:45:55,860 Charles: It's like, oh, you know, I'm just... I'm working on my app. 1316 01:45:56,480 --> 01:46:01,560 Charles: They don't know that, like, I'm actually working on, like, a course about a new type of plugin that I'm making. 1317 01:46:02,760 --> 01:46:05,140 Charles: Because, like, they didn't express interest in that. 1318 01:46:05,140 --> 01:46:06,740 Charles: So why would I tell them about it? 1319 01:46:06,840 --> 01:46:09,660 Charles: They're not the audience for the thing I'm passionate about. 1320 01:46:09,800 --> 01:46:11,200 Charles: So I'm going to just kind of withhold that. 1321 01:46:12,040 --> 01:46:18,100 Charles: And, you know, a lot of people don't... like, that line of thinking doesn't resonate with them. 1322 01:46:18,760 --> 01:46:24,660 Charles: And that's why it can come across as like, I did quit the thing, like you were saying. 1323 01:46:25,020 --> 01:46:26,760 Charles: Like, am I giving up on the thing? 1324 01:46:27,100 --> 01:46:31,180 Charles: Or am I saying goodbye to the thing I was passionate about and moving on to something else? 1325 01:46:31,660 --> 01:46:37,040 Nesters: Yeah, and I think this also answers the Victor's question even better then. 1326 01:46:37,260 --> 01:46:43,040 Nesters: Because you can still spend time working on something for yourself. 1327 01:46:43,520 --> 01:46:53,800 Nesters: But if you didn't validate it with the market, as in they were not interested, then you can actually move on to the next thing that you will share with them, basically, whenever you decide to start working on it, you know. 1328 01:46:53,860 --> 01:47:03,280 Nesters: So technically, it does cut that, like, some of those, I guess, paths loose that you don't over focus on sharing it and selling it or etc. 1329 01:47:03,540 --> 01:47:05,620 Nesters: That you feel like, okay, didn't yet. 1330 01:47:06,160 --> 01:47:14,360 Nesters: So basically, you do actually invest less, I guess, in that thing, because maybe you're just doing it for yourself at that point and not focused as much on sharing it. 1331 01:47:14,720 --> 01:47:25,500 Charles: And I think the hardest part is that you have to be able to say, like, I'm able to put time into this, even though it's currently not returning any, there's no return on investment of time. 1332 01:47:27,040 --> 01:47:34,980 Charles: And a lot of that depends on, like, well, what prior success did I have that is going to fund this period of no return on investment? 1333 01:47:36,860 --> 01:47:44,920 Charles: And I think that's a lot of people, they'll embark on something, and they won't have that cushion, or they'll have that cushion in the form of a day job. 1334 01:47:46,480 --> 01:47:48,840 Charles: And that will let them continue on with their passion thing. 1335 01:47:48,940 --> 01:47:57,960 Charles: But then for other people, they won't be able to say they have that, you know, that cushion to kind of sit into. 1336 01:47:58,140 --> 01:48:04,680 Charles: Like, I can, I'm able to work on this for six months because I've got, like, a huge savings thing that's going to propel me to the next version of the app. 1337 01:48:05,780 --> 01:48:06,700 Charles: Like, they don't have that. 1338 01:48:06,760 --> 01:48:18,340 Charles: And that can be, like, a big, like, that's a big decision for a lot of people to make, to say, like, you know what, like, I should be working on this new feature that's actually going to draw a lot of stuff, but I'm really passionate about this other part, 1339 01:48:18,540 --> 01:48:25,760 Charles: so let me just stay working on that other part, because I have the cushion that will allow me to do that. 1340 01:48:26,480 --> 01:48:37,580 Charles: And then the problem becomes, well, I need to set an end date for when I'm going to stop working on that, because if I just keep going on it, it's going to go on forever, and I'm going to just miss out on all this other new feature stuff, which is a whole problem. 1341 01:48:37,680 --> 01:48:51,580 Charles: Now I'm setting myself up for getting into trouble with, like, the business itself that might start to crumble, or I might, you know, miss out on the ability to pay for some bills, or I'm going to have to, you know, start really squeezing the wallet to try to, 1342 01:48:51,960 --> 01:48:54,280 Charles: you know, make ends meet while I stay focused on this thing. 1343 01:48:54,660 --> 01:49:03,220 Charles: And a lot of people, they're not open to that risk, or they don't have the cushion to allow them to experience that risk, if that makes sense. 1344 01:49:04,480 --> 01:49:04,700 Nesters: Mm-hmm. 1345 01:49:05,380 --> 01:49:12,400 Nesters: Yeah, you also mentioned the timeboxing, which is an important element if you actually do go down the path of, you know, working on those things. 1346 01:49:12,660 --> 01:49:21,860 Charles: Oh, man, like, I don't know who else in here is a software developer, but if there are any that are listening, all of them know that's like, oh, I think this is going to take me two hours to bang out. 1347 01:49:22,140 --> 01:49:26,520 Charles: Two weeks later, still not done, they know what those coding problems are like. 1348 01:49:28,180 --> 01:49:43,400 Nesters: Yeah, and when you add perfectionism on top of it, and procrastination, you're suddenly just spending, oh, just an extra feature, just an extra feature, and that's basically the software developer's curse of not actually releasing content for others. 1349 01:49:43,400 --> 01:49:49,240 Nesters: The product is the fact you just spend time building additional features. 1350 01:49:49,780 --> 01:49:49,920 Nesters: Right. 1351 01:49:50,160 --> 01:49:53,740 Nesters: Well, you should just providing value, which is just getting something out. 1352 01:49:53,980 --> 01:49:54,140 Nesters: Right. 1353 01:49:54,340 --> 01:49:57,620 Nesters: If they can make use of it, then they get value. 1354 01:49:57,980 --> 01:50:07,180 Nesters: If they can't make use of it, then maybe you can actually pivot to something else, be like, okay, I built it for myself, but for other people actually need to maybe focus on something else. 1355 01:50:07,400 --> 01:50:13,160 Charles: Yeah, it never got to a point where I could actually put it in front of other people, but I can still say that I did it for myself. 1356 01:50:13,160 --> 01:50:17,920 Charles: Like, that's a whole thing right there, a whole tunnel that software developers find themselves going down. 1357 01:50:20,420 --> 01:50:32,940 Nesters: Yeah, and obviously, if you continue building things only for yourself, you are still in that space where you don't actually make sales, and maybe you're not focused on sales, but providing value. 1358 01:50:33,040 --> 01:50:33,540 Nesters: Exactly. 1359 01:50:33,740 --> 01:50:38,820 Nesters: If you build for yourself and don't publish it, you're still not technically providing value to others. 1360 01:50:39,200 --> 01:50:51,720 Nesters: And I guess that curse is that for a lot of people listening, not for a lot of people listening right now here, but for a lot of people generally being in small beds, one of those challenges mainly is how to start. 1361 01:50:51,900 --> 01:50:58,540 Nesters: That was also a lot of questions by Victor, Prince asked as well, where do you find that niche? 1362 01:50:58,620 --> 01:50:59,440 Nesters: How do you start? 1363 01:50:59,980 --> 01:51:01,840 Nesters: How do you not go the wrong path? 1364 01:51:02,040 --> 01:51:10,420 Nesters: It's mostly about that point where you just get started, and that's even a challenge for me as well, with many things that's been like the SEO course as well. 1365 01:51:10,420 --> 01:51:14,420 Nesters: I felt like I would be releasing the same course as everyone else last year. 1366 01:51:14,660 --> 01:51:20,740 Nesters: This year, I feel more confident that I can target the smaller niche of people completely fresh, new to SEO. 1367 01:51:21,060 --> 01:51:28,740 Nesters: So not too much on the detail, but more on the fundamentals and connecting the dots maybe in a more understandable way for everyone. 1368 01:51:30,180 --> 01:51:34,000 Nesters: I think that's a different angle than most courses take, for example. 1369 01:51:34,180 --> 01:51:44,800 Nesters: I think that's maybe the most valuable angle I can take, and I'm more motivated to actually work on that than just get out a random SEO course like everyone else. 1370 01:51:45,540 --> 01:51:48,320 Nesters: So yeah, this talk actually helped me also 1371 01:51:52,180 --> 01:52:05,420 Nesters: understand how you explain it also from my perspective, like what I should focus on more instead of procrastinating on it as well and just getting the value out. 1372 01:52:05,600 --> 01:52:06,700 Nesters: Yeah, Prince is back again. 1373 01:52:07,000 --> 01:52:07,760 Nesters: Another question? 1374 01:52:08,280 --> 01:52:10,320 Prince: Yeah, I do have another question. 1375 01:52:10,460 --> 01:52:12,380 Prince: I'm sorry about... I have to keep... 1376 01:52:12,380 --> 01:52:20,620 Prince: Every time I do something in the background, I don't know, I go start chatting with someone and space just kicks me out. 1377 01:52:20,700 --> 01:52:22,860 Prince: So I have to come back in and then I have to request again. 1378 01:52:22,900 --> 01:52:23,700 Prince: So sorry about that. 1379 01:52:24,880 --> 01:52:27,820 Prince: So I had a question, and you may have touched upon this before. 1380 01:52:28,020 --> 01:52:46,780 Prince: I'm sorry if it's a repeat question, but I've noticed in a lot of solopreneur spaces that people always end up having this question like, okay, I've been using this platform for selling my product for services, but now I want to move to something else that doesn't charge this much commission. 1381 01:52:46,980 --> 01:52:53,440 Prince: I want to go to like from Gumroad to Lemon Squeezy, or I want to use a Stripe integration or something like that. 1382 01:52:53,580 --> 01:52:59,340 Prince: Did you ever get to that point or just you were always like, fuck it, this is working well. 1383 01:52:59,660 --> 01:53:01,700 Prince: I don't want to bother with changing or... 1384 01:53:02,700 --> 01:53:07,160 Prince: Yeah, I just want to know about your thought process if that ever happened. 1385 01:53:07,420 --> 01:53:07,680 Prince: Yeah. 1386 01:53:07,840 --> 01:53:11,620 Prince: And if that did happen and you decided on Gumroad, what was it? 1387 01:53:11,660 --> 01:53:17,920 Nesters: Yeah, I think it was a little bit ironic because we literally spoke exactly about that topic before. 1388 01:53:18,740 --> 01:53:19,560 Nesters: But I guess you get the point. 1389 01:53:19,960 --> 01:53:20,540 Nesters: But yeah. 1390 01:53:20,700 --> 01:53:22,840 Nesters: Yeah, it was about key issuing. 1391 01:53:23,100 --> 01:53:24,240 Nesters: No, no, it's completely fine. 1392 01:53:24,580 --> 01:53:25,520 Nesters: We are properly charged. 1393 01:53:25,740 --> 01:53:28,740 Prince: I heard a bit about how he liked the... 1394 01:53:28,740 --> 01:53:32,600 Prince: No, it was a bit before how he liked, you know, Daniel joined and he wanted to join with him. 1395 01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:33,720 Prince: That was like a small bets thing. 1396 01:53:33,940 --> 01:53:35,060 Prince: But yeah, how he... 1397 01:53:35,060 --> 01:53:40,380 Prince: Why he stayed with Gumroad because I've heard a lot of people saying the commissions are a bit high or blah, blah, blah. 1398 01:53:40,820 --> 01:53:43,180 Prince: Yeah, what was the short answer to that? 1399 01:53:43,340 --> 01:53:44,380 Prince: I'm very sorry for... 1400 01:53:44,380 --> 01:53:45,360 Charles: No, that's all good. 1401 01:53:45,480 --> 01:53:52,920 Charles: The short answer was that when I wrote the authorization engine for my app, I did not know what I was doing. 1402 01:53:54,720 --> 01:53:58,200 Charles: And you could say the trauma of that experience... 1403 01:53:58,800 --> 01:54:09,980 Charles: Anytime I'd like a new payment provider comes up that has the ability to generate software license keys, I just keep thinking about that was such a nightmare to build this authorization system. 1404 01:54:11,620 --> 01:54:13,240 Charles: I don't want to go through that again. 1405 01:54:14,400 --> 01:54:18,020 Charles: And that's been such a big deterrent of, you know... 1406 01:54:18,820 --> 01:54:27,300 Charles: Plus it's like, not only would I have to integrate the existing one, that's like all those customers still need to be able to interact with Gumroad's thing. 1407 01:54:28,200 --> 01:54:40,840 Charles: I have to basically build a whole new backend to interact with this other platform and then figure out when the customer's app logs in, which does it go to Gumroad server or does it go to Lemon Squeezy or whoever else it is? 1408 01:54:41,320 --> 01:54:45,120 Charles: And now I was just like, that just sounds like a nightmare waiting to happen. 1409 01:54:45,560 --> 01:54:46,740 Charles: I don't want to deal with any of that. 1410 01:54:47,180 --> 01:54:49,320 Charles: Too much effort you can't be bothered with. 1411 01:54:50,800 --> 01:54:55,980 Charles: But that's because I don't know enough about web development to make it be an easy thing. 1412 01:54:56,260 --> 01:55:02,620 Charles: And I'm sure it would be super easy, but I did my whole backend in PHP and MySQL and just like real old school low level. 1413 01:55:02,780 --> 01:55:05,860 Charles: Like I was treating it like I was coding in C. 1414 01:55:06,360 --> 01:55:09,180 Charles: And that's probably not the right way to solve all those problems. 1415 01:55:09,420 --> 01:55:16,380 Charles: But that's all I knew because I was only focused on like C++ code and using the debugger to basically write everything. 1416 01:55:19,680 --> 01:55:24,080 Prince: Well, if you ever have, you know, if you ever feel like changing, you know, we have a lot of guys. 1417 01:55:24,220 --> 01:55:26,680 Prince: I think Victor here could help you with that kind of... 1418 01:55:26,680 --> 01:55:26,880 Prince: Yeah. 1419 01:55:28,940 --> 01:55:33,520 Charles: I would love to get an audit of my backend at some point. 1420 01:55:33,620 --> 01:55:34,920 Charles: Of the whole server stuff. 1421 01:55:35,120 --> 01:55:37,240 Charles: Just, you know, hire somebody to just go over it. 1422 01:55:37,580 --> 01:55:49,880 Wiktor: I could also, because some time ago I made an app that like implements all of the like user signing up and the payments with Stripe. 1423 01:55:50,080 --> 01:55:53,640 Wiktor: It wasn't purely made by like, I didn't make the full backend. 1424 01:55:54,120 --> 01:55:57,240 Wiktor: It's, I use, I forgot the name of the client. 1425 01:55:57,660 --> 01:56:01,720 Wiktor: It was for the authentication stuff. 1426 01:56:01,820 --> 01:56:02,840 Wiktor: It was some third party. 1427 01:56:03,400 --> 01:56:06,960 Wiktor: But basically, yeah, if you want, I can just drop the code. 1428 01:56:07,060 --> 01:56:09,940 Wiktor: And also just, we can talk about the website. 1429 01:56:10,100 --> 01:56:11,720 Wiktor: I would love to, because I'm unemployed. 1430 01:56:11,880 --> 01:56:12,900 Wiktor: I have lots of time. 1431 01:56:13,360 --> 01:56:16,680 Wiktor: Yeah, send me a message on the small bets, a direct message. 1432 01:56:16,960 --> 01:56:17,660 Wiktor: Yes, of course. 1433 01:56:19,600 --> 01:56:21,320 Wiktor: Do you have same name on Twitter? 1434 01:56:21,320 --> 01:56:22,840 Wiktor: On X, sorry. 1435 01:56:23,400 --> 01:56:23,840 Wiktor: On X. 1436 01:56:24,260 --> 01:56:24,780 Wiktor: Okay. 1437 01:56:25,220 --> 01:56:26,420 Wiktor: I'll reach out. 1438 01:56:26,840 --> 01:56:27,000 Wiktor: Thanks. 1439 01:56:27,120 --> 01:56:30,600 Nesters: I mean, he's literally speaking from an X profile, right? 1440 01:56:31,960 --> 01:56:32,740 Nesters: Yeah, bro. 1441 01:56:33,720 --> 01:56:34,960 Prince: Where do you think you are? 1442 01:56:35,740 --> 01:56:37,760 Prince: I know you're unemployed, but you're high too. 1443 01:56:38,840 --> 01:56:39,940 Prince: Just remember, bro. 1444 01:56:39,940 --> 01:56:41,500 Wiktor: Maybe there's a reason you're unemployed. 1445 01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:46,160 Wiktor: Again, but thanks for the recommendation. 1446 01:56:46,540 --> 01:56:47,640 Wiktor: I appreciate it. 1447 01:56:48,980 --> 01:56:49,400 Prince: Yeah, man. 1448 01:56:49,460 --> 01:56:49,920 Prince: Don't worry. 1449 01:56:49,920 --> 01:56:51,680 Prince: Just don't forget the commission. 1450 01:56:52,020 --> 01:56:54,080 Prince: Of course. 1451 01:56:54,580 --> 01:56:57,080 Nesters: Yeah, we all take a commission here. 1452 01:56:57,380 --> 01:57:00,640 Nesters: Basically every viewer, I mean, listener here gets a commission now. 1453 01:57:02,020 --> 01:57:04,580 Prince: Buy me a drink when I come to Warsaw, that's enough. 1454 01:57:04,920 --> 01:57:06,020 Nesters: 5% each. 1455 01:57:06,060 --> 01:57:07,120 Nesters: I don't know what's left for you. 1456 01:57:09,400 --> 01:57:12,860 Nesters: Anyway, yeah, of course we should talk in the small bets community. 1457 01:57:13,040 --> 01:57:17,400 Nesters: I mean, we should also talk about your pricing and some of the other stuff probably as well. 1458 01:57:17,400 --> 01:57:22,980 Nesters: Get you to maybe improve your conversion sales, whatever. 1459 01:57:23,420 --> 01:57:26,160 Nesters: Maybe a CEO at some point if you decide to. 1460 01:57:26,520 --> 01:57:27,680 Wiktor: Nestor's quick question. 1461 01:57:28,240 --> 01:57:34,280 Wiktor: Is there a way on the Campfire app to search users in the Campfire app? 1462 01:57:34,320 --> 01:57:42,420 Wiktor: So I can message them directly and not do this silly thing where I ping someone and then I select their username and then I DM them. 1463 01:57:42,700 --> 01:57:42,980 Wiktor: Do you know? 1464 01:57:45,360 --> 01:57:47,540 Nesters: You can press that on the ping. 1465 01:57:47,760 --> 01:57:52,200 Nesters: You can press, you know, that next to the DMs, there's like that ping button. 1466 01:57:53,560 --> 01:57:54,740 Nesters: The up ping. 1467 01:57:55,060 --> 01:57:55,440 Nesters: Yeah. 1468 01:57:56,220 --> 01:58:00,820 Nesters: Yeah, you can press there and find the name, which is the same as on X right now. 1469 01:58:00,920 --> 01:58:01,360 Nesters: Mad Cat. 1470 01:58:03,080 --> 01:58:03,920 Wiktor: Yeah, America Music. 1471 01:58:04,280 --> 01:58:04,620 Wiktor: We'll see. 1472 01:58:04,840 --> 01:58:05,100 Wiktor: Yeah. 1473 01:58:05,440 --> 01:58:06,300 Wiktor: And then click here. 1474 01:58:06,620 --> 01:58:08,720 Wiktor: Oh, thank you. 1475 01:58:09,040 --> 01:58:11,440 Wiktor: Yeah, that took you a while to find. 1476 01:58:11,580 --> 01:58:12,780 Wiktor: Yes, my bad. 1477 01:58:14,340 --> 01:58:15,560 Wiktor: Zoomer brain, you know. 1478 01:58:15,640 --> 01:58:16,220 Prince: The streak of... 1479 01:58:18,520 --> 01:58:26,400 Nesters: Yeah, by the way, anyone who's not in SmallBets community, I mean, it's a great place to join and get some feedback, as you can see now. 1480 01:58:27,300 --> 01:58:34,500 Nesters: Now, Charles, not Matt, Charles will be getting some feedback based on our talk. 1481 01:58:36,520 --> 01:58:38,620 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, the community is great, by the way. 1482 01:58:38,760 --> 01:58:41,380 Nesters: It's been also a nice chat today, but the community is great. 1483 01:58:41,380 --> 01:58:42,640 Nesters: Always can get some feedback. 1484 01:58:42,860 --> 01:58:43,880 Nesters: It's also very casual. 1485 01:58:44,260 --> 01:58:47,920 Nesters: So don't need to be too strict in the way you communicate. 1486 01:58:48,120 --> 01:58:49,660 Nesters: You can just drop some random messages. 1487 01:58:49,980 --> 01:58:53,700 Nesters: I mean, me and Prince are well experienced with that. 1488 01:58:56,300 --> 01:59:02,220 Nesters: Yeah, so I guess we're going to probably wrap up soon. 1489 01:59:02,360 --> 01:59:04,540 Nesters: It's been, like, basically almost two hours now. 1490 01:59:05,260 --> 01:59:07,640 Nesters: So any questions, anything we... 1491 01:59:09,000 --> 01:59:09,680 Nesters: Yeah, me too. 1492 01:59:09,680 --> 01:59:13,880 Nesters: Although it's, like, 11 p.m., I still feel starving now after this talk. 1493 01:59:14,240 --> 01:59:15,860 Nesters: Yeah, this was good. 1494 01:59:17,000 --> 01:59:18,060 Nesters: Yeah, this was good. 1495 01:59:18,320 --> 01:59:19,000 Nesters: It was great. 1496 01:59:20,460 --> 01:59:21,420 Nesters: Any questions? 1497 01:59:23,140 --> 01:59:23,660 Vlad: Yeah. 1498 01:59:25,500 --> 01:59:35,000 Vlad: So you said you joined SmallBets to hopefully not just get access to Daniel, but also you say you've been learning a lot. 1499 01:59:36,080 --> 01:59:39,660 Vlad: Obviously, we talked tonight about pricing, about ACO a lot. 1500 01:59:40,300 --> 01:59:43,740 Vlad: Maybe we'll talk about the tech stack in the SmallBets community. 1501 01:59:44,020 --> 01:59:53,540 Vlad: But what would you say you've learned from lurking for a couple of years now, I think, of the thing that stands out? 1502 01:59:56,400 --> 02:00:05,500 Charles: There's a lot of people who know how to extract value that I would not expect to find value there. 1503 02:00:05,620 --> 02:00:07,520 Charles: And that is so interesting. 1504 02:00:10,040 --> 02:00:18,080 Charles: Like, people are able to find a niche that they can sell to and be successful at it. 1505 02:00:19,160 --> 02:00:21,960 Charles: I think that's, like, the most interesting thing. 1506 02:00:22,200 --> 02:00:24,140 Charles: I didn't try to do it. 1507 02:00:25,540 --> 02:00:26,740 Charles: I was just trying to solve problems. 1508 02:00:26,900 --> 02:00:29,100 Charles: I wanted to just make my tutorial videos, and that was it. 1509 02:00:29,740 --> 02:00:41,500 Nesters: Yeah, but later, technically, I know it maybe sounds weird from another angle, but maybe to us, at least to some of us, it actually does sound like you did technically find your niche. 1510 02:00:41,860 --> 02:00:48,800 Nesters: You kind of forced your way through the niche, but you did find the niche you sold to because you had the communities, etc. 1511 02:00:51,140 --> 02:00:58,520 Charles: Yeah, what I mean is there are people in the community who know how to actively exploit a niche and an audience. 1512 02:00:58,520 --> 02:01:01,060 Charles: And turn it into a viable business. 1513 02:01:01,920 --> 02:01:03,580 Charles: That's what's most impressive to me. 1514 02:01:04,060 --> 02:01:07,000 Charles: I guess by exploit, you mean market and sell. 1515 02:01:07,240 --> 02:01:08,380 Charles: Yeah, market and sell too. 1516 02:01:08,760 --> 02:01:10,900 Charles: Like, exploit is a negative term. 1517 02:01:11,000 --> 02:01:13,260 Charles: I don't mean the negative version of it. 1518 02:01:14,120 --> 02:01:16,680 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, I guess sometimes it feels like a negative term. 1519 02:01:16,840 --> 02:01:23,740 Nesters: When you're selling too much, maybe sometimes you look at the person who's being very aggressive with sales, and you kind of feel like they're exploiting people. 1520 02:01:23,980 --> 02:01:30,340 Nesters: Because honestly, some sales tactics are very exploitative by the high-pressure sales, etc. 1521 02:01:30,560 --> 02:01:32,360 Nesters: Like, honestly, they are exploitative, yeah. 1522 02:01:32,520 --> 02:01:33,200 Nesters: That's not what I meant. 1523 02:01:33,240 --> 02:01:35,260 Nesters: Most people... yeah, yeah, I get it. 1524 02:01:35,520 --> 02:01:42,320 Nesters: But I understand that you meant that basically that people are good at just expressing and selling to that to people. 1525 02:01:42,600 --> 02:01:52,680 Nesters: I guess that was one of those things where when I shared the intro that I'm going to post on X, you were like, that no one has done that, I guess, for your stuff, right? 1526 02:01:53,100 --> 02:01:54,380 Nesters: Or whatever, so I was like... 1527 02:01:55,780 --> 02:01:59,220 Nesters: It was interesting that you were like, nice intro you put for me. 1528 02:01:59,300 --> 02:02:02,640 Nesters: And I was like, okay, yeah, I think that's a reasonable intro for you. 1529 02:02:03,160 --> 02:02:06,420 Charles: Yeah, I'd never had anybody write anything like that about me. 1530 02:02:06,500 --> 02:02:06,880 Charles: And I was like... 1531 02:02:09,160 --> 02:02:16,660 Charles: My initial gut was like, oh, I should just hire you to do all of my copy because what you put together was better than anything I've ever written. 1532 02:02:17,000 --> 02:02:18,480 Charles: And I've never seen anybody else do it. 1533 02:02:19,140 --> 02:02:20,200 Charles: Congratulations, you got the job. 1534 02:02:22,280 --> 02:02:22,840 Nesters: Fair enough. 1535 02:02:22,980 --> 02:02:24,960 Nesters: I mean, we can talk about some of the things, by the way. 1536 02:02:25,120 --> 02:02:27,220 Nesters: I think we should definitely optimize your stuff. 1537 02:02:27,380 --> 02:02:30,420 Nesters: Yeah, there's a lot of room for improvement on my end. 1538 02:02:32,480 --> 02:02:39,800 Nesters: Yeah, I mean, obviously, we should do it so it all feels comfortable with you and the way you actually love doing things. 1539 02:02:39,900 --> 02:02:44,760 Nesters: I think you shouldn't definitely lose that way you actually love working. 1540 02:02:44,880 --> 02:02:52,720 Nesters: You should just maybe steer it a little bit, that it becomes just a little bit better in terms of conveying a value. 1541 02:02:55,580 --> 02:02:57,140 Charles: Vlad, did that answer your question? 1542 02:02:58,220 --> 02:03:00,340 Vlad: Yes, I do have a follow-up. 1543 02:03:01,460 --> 02:03:02,000 Vlad: Okay. 1544 02:03:02,120 --> 02:03:04,540 Vlad: You said 80s guitar metal. 1545 02:03:04,980 --> 02:03:05,400 Vlad: Yes. 1546 02:03:05,620 --> 02:03:07,040 Vlad: Top five bands. 1547 02:03:09,760 --> 02:03:16,020 Charles: Okay, right now, well, it's not a band, but I love Pete Thorns playing. 1548 02:03:18,620 --> 02:03:20,640 Charles: Okay, I was born in 1981. 1549 02:03:21,140 --> 02:03:30,840 Charles: So when I was like, you know, like five to eight years old, my sisters were listening to Guns N' Roses, Poison, Whitesnake, 1550 02:03:35,820 --> 02:03:39,080 Charles: She's My Cherry Pop, whatever that song, whatever that band is. 1551 02:03:39,900 --> 02:03:40,440 Charles: Motley Crue. 1552 02:03:40,700 --> 02:03:43,800 Charles: Yeah, Motley Crue, and then Great White. 1553 02:03:44,720 --> 02:03:52,460 Charles: But like right now, I'm really into the guitar playing of Ghost, which is this dude, Frederick Aikenson. 1554 02:03:53,640 --> 02:04:03,600 Charles: And I just, I'm not into like the religious message they're conveying, but just the guitar playing is so amazing. 1555 02:04:03,700 --> 02:04:04,620 Charles: I love those tones. 1556 02:04:04,660 --> 02:04:07,160 Charles: And I've always dreamed of being able to play like that. 1557 02:04:08,200 --> 02:04:12,380 Charles: I became a sax player and a keyboard player. 1558 02:04:13,480 --> 02:04:18,520 Charles: But I'm trying to live my dream about, you know, learning to play like an 80s shredder guitar player. 1559 02:04:18,520 --> 02:04:19,180 Charles: At some point. 1560 02:04:20,300 --> 02:04:21,600 Nesters: Yeah, I wanted to bring that up. 1561 02:04:21,700 --> 02:04:25,800 Nesters: Actually, you have saxophone play on your YouTube channel, by the way. 1562 02:04:26,020 --> 02:04:33,200 Nesters: And I even listened to like one of the pieces that I dropped in the channel, in the Weekly Yaps channel, in Small Bits Community. 1563 02:04:33,360 --> 02:04:35,820 Nesters: I was like, so you're selling those stuff as well. 1564 02:04:35,900 --> 02:04:40,500 Nesters: But there's actually also, you just play, like playing music on your channel as well. 1565 02:04:40,580 --> 02:04:42,960 Nesters: Yeah, it seems to be well received as well. 1566 02:04:43,220 --> 02:04:50,800 Charles: Well, it's funny because like those people on that YouTube channel, my YouTube audience, they don't want any of the coding stuff. 1567 02:04:50,900 --> 02:04:53,260 Charles: They just want me to play my horn. 1568 02:04:54,300 --> 02:04:55,760 Charles: Like that's all they're there for. 1569 02:04:55,860 --> 02:04:59,720 Charles: And I get like zero engagement on any of the coding tutorial stuff I post there. 1570 02:05:00,520 --> 02:05:05,640 Nesters: Is that why you also don't have a profile picture when you have 20k subscribers? 1571 02:05:06,580 --> 02:05:10,860 Charles: I've just never spent time like putting one together. 1572 02:05:10,860 --> 02:05:18,160 Charles: The one that's showing up here was like my Instagram one from like seven or eight years ago. 1573 02:05:20,040 --> 02:05:23,620 Charles: Yeah, I just, I never got around to making a profile pic or an avatar. 1574 02:05:24,980 --> 02:05:26,860 Charles: It just, it wasn't important to me. 1575 02:05:28,260 --> 02:05:36,980 Nesters: Yeah, that's just interesting because you've been paying attention to the right things that matter to like actually get to sell something to the audience. 1576 02:05:36,980 --> 02:05:41,100 Nesters: Well, not trying to market, but getting the word of mouth out, etc. 1577 02:05:41,400 --> 02:05:44,440 Nesters: So you've been actually doing all the right things. 1578 02:05:44,500 --> 02:05:46,880 Nesters: You're just not caring about optimizing most of it. 1579 02:05:47,440 --> 02:05:50,960 Nesters: Yeah, that tracks with me. 1580 02:05:53,080 --> 02:05:53,600 Charles: Yeah. 1581 02:05:54,560 --> 02:05:56,580 Charles: Are there any other 80s metalheads here? 1582 02:05:59,560 --> 02:06:03,320 Wiktor: Uh, not 80s, but I really, I really agree about the ghost. 1583 02:06:03,540 --> 02:06:06,100 Wiktor: Like the guitars is so fucking good on that. 1584 02:06:06,100 --> 02:06:09,800 Wiktor: Yes, so melodic, so well toned. 1585 02:06:10,200 --> 02:06:11,000 Wiktor: Yeah, yeah. 1586 02:06:11,060 --> 02:06:15,900 Wiktor: And it's like, it's crazy how well it works with, I would say the, the main vocalist. 1587 02:06:16,020 --> 02:06:18,300 Wiktor: Like I never had that moment of ghost. 1588 02:06:18,440 --> 02:06:23,540 Wiktor: That's only happens that, uh, like the guitar and the vocal, like they fight each other for the presence. 1589 02:06:23,660 --> 02:06:27,520 Wiktor: Not like the guy that like strings the guitar on, I don't know. 1590 02:06:27,700 --> 02:06:29,400 Wiktor: I'm regretting that recommendation now. 1591 02:06:29,920 --> 02:06:33,720 Wiktor: But, uh, that vocalist opens his mouth. 1592 02:06:33,720 --> 02:06:37,740 Prince: I just closed the, the, the media player at that point. 1593 02:06:39,100 --> 02:06:42,560 Prince: I have a big problem also, because these guys have been categorized as black metal. 1594 02:06:42,780 --> 02:06:43,860 Prince: And they're anything but. 1595 02:06:44,040 --> 02:06:45,880 Prince: Yeah, they are journey with. 1596 02:06:46,220 --> 02:06:46,960 Prince: The guitar is good. 1597 02:06:47,260 --> 02:06:50,740 Prince: As soon as they start singing, then it's like, no, no. 1598 02:06:51,600 --> 02:06:53,300 Prince: But yeah, going back to 80s, yeah. 1599 02:06:53,460 --> 02:06:58,260 Prince: Black Sabbath, all the British, you know, heavyweight, new, new wave of heavy metal. 1600 02:06:58,560 --> 02:06:59,280 Prince: Yeah, they were the best. 1601 02:06:59,380 --> 02:07:03,720 Prince: But I guess you listen mostly to American ones based on what you were saying before with like White Snake and that. 1602 02:07:04,140 --> 02:07:08,700 Charles: Yeah, well, I mean, I, I, um, I mean, I'm a jazz musician at heart. 1603 02:07:08,960 --> 02:07:15,400 Charles: So when I'm listening to that stuff, like I'm coming at it from a, from that mindset. 1604 02:07:15,440 --> 02:07:17,140 Charles: Like, what are they actually playing? 1605 02:07:17,260 --> 02:07:18,580 Charles: What are the voicings they're playing? 1606 02:07:18,660 --> 02:07:19,820 Charles: Like all that kind of stuff. 1607 02:07:19,860 --> 02:07:28,900 Charles: And it's really interesting to hear the people who, like, you can tell the guitarists that have explored that stuff versus the guitarists that have stayed mostly in like the rock blues genre. 1608 02:07:32,060 --> 02:07:44,300 Charles: Like, I think it's in, um, the guitarist who did most of the guitar work for Ghost's latest couple of albums, his band Opeth, like they blend like hard rock, metal and jazz. 1609 02:07:44,880 --> 02:07:45,280 Charles: Yeah. 1610 02:07:45,600 --> 02:07:46,900 Charles: And you can hear it in his playing. 1611 02:07:46,960 --> 02:07:54,380 Charles: Like that dude is totally, he's an 80s shredder, but he's also like, if you put a jazz chart in front of him, he would probably make it through the changes like it's nothing. 1612 02:07:55,780 --> 02:07:58,260 Charles: I did not know the guy from Opeth was in that band. 1613 02:07:58,340 --> 02:07:58,560 Charles: Okay. 1614 02:07:58,560 --> 02:07:59,300 Charles: He's not in the band. 1615 02:07:59,400 --> 02:08:01,800 Charles: He's just like, he did all the guitar parts for them. 1616 02:08:03,980 --> 02:08:04,600 Prince: Oh, right. 1617 02:08:04,680 --> 02:08:04,920 Prince: Okay. 1618 02:08:05,020 --> 02:08:06,120 Vlad: That's why that's a good part. 1619 02:08:06,240 --> 02:08:06,500 Vlad: Okay. 1620 02:08:06,660 --> 02:08:06,880 Vlad: Excellent. 1621 02:08:07,360 --> 02:08:07,380 Vlad: Yeah. 1622 02:08:07,680 --> 02:08:09,120 Vlad: Super melodic guitar parts. 1623 02:08:09,840 --> 02:08:11,780 Vlad: I have a new band to listen to now. 1624 02:08:11,880 --> 02:08:13,620 Vlad: Thanks so much for that recommendation. 1625 02:08:14,180 --> 02:08:14,500 Vlad: Never heard of them. 1626 02:08:14,500 --> 02:08:14,620 Vlad: Yeah. 1627 02:08:14,700 --> 02:08:18,680 Vlad: Imagine Journey meets, um, Ghost. 1628 02:08:19,460 --> 02:08:19,860 Charles: Yeah. 1629 02:08:19,960 --> 02:08:21,440 Charles: Journey meets Opeth. 1630 02:08:21,580 --> 02:08:22,180 Charles: Alice Cooper. 1631 02:08:23,240 --> 02:08:23,940 Vlad: Oh, okay. 1632 02:08:24,740 --> 02:08:25,140 Vlad: Interesting. 1633 02:08:26,340 --> 02:08:28,260 Vlad: That's a good way to put it actually. 1634 02:08:28,260 --> 02:08:31,080 Vlad: I'm listening to this space, so I can't listen to the music right now. 1635 02:08:31,120 --> 02:08:35,600 Vlad: But as soon as the space ends, I'm starting the YouTube mix. 1636 02:08:36,520 --> 02:08:38,520 Vlad: And you see you're providing value to the community. 1637 02:08:39,180 --> 02:08:39,580 Prince: Yeah. 1638 02:08:40,100 --> 02:08:45,960 Prince: I think the metal or the rock music channel now has, uh, you know, kicking the gear. 1639 02:08:46,120 --> 02:08:46,680 Prince: There we go. 1640 02:08:47,240 --> 02:08:47,500 Wiktor: Yeah. 1641 02:08:47,860 --> 02:08:51,660 Wiktor: I have one more recommendation just, uh, about the music. 1642 02:08:51,700 --> 02:08:54,820 Wiktor: If you're interested in the, uh, with when it comes to Gizzard. 1643 02:08:55,000 --> 02:08:55,180 Wiktor: Okay. 1644 02:08:55,240 --> 02:08:58,760 Wiktor: So there's the band they call, I don't know if you know, King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. 1645 02:08:58,900 --> 02:09:06,440 Wiktor: They're kind of a goofy band since like each of their album is kind of completely different, uh, genre in a, in a way. 1646 02:09:06,700 --> 02:09:14,740 Wiktor: But I, but from heavy guitar strings, I really, really recommend the Infested Rat's Nest from 2019. 1647 02:09:15,500 --> 02:09:16,020 Wiktor: Okay. 1648 02:09:16,040 --> 02:09:17,540 Wiktor: It's like a heavy metal. 1649 02:09:17,780 --> 02:09:20,580 Wiktor: I would say it's like inspired by those 80s. 1650 02:09:20,580 --> 02:09:26,820 Wiktor: Did you say the Kings of the Lizard Wizards who made Infested Rat's Nest? 1651 02:09:26,820 --> 02:09:28,440 Prince: They love rhyming, don't they? 1652 02:09:30,160 --> 02:09:33,640 Wiktor: Uh, King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard is the band's name. 1653 02:09:34,720 --> 02:09:35,360 Wiktor: King Gizzard. 1654 02:09:35,740 --> 02:09:35,980 Wiktor: Okay. 1655 02:09:36,160 --> 02:09:37,260 Wiktor: But like, if you write this... 1656 02:09:37,260 --> 02:09:38,500 Wiktor: King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard. 1657 02:09:38,800 --> 02:09:39,060 Wiktor: Yeah. 1658 02:09:39,900 --> 02:09:45,780 Wiktor: Australian band, you know, uh, and their album name is Infested Rat's Nest. 1659 02:09:46,060 --> 02:09:47,580 Wiktor: I think you'll enjoy it. 1660 02:09:48,200 --> 02:09:49,560 Wiktor: So yeah, recommendation. 1661 02:09:50,020 --> 02:09:52,760 Wiktor: On that note, this yap is done. 1662 02:09:52,760 --> 02:09:53,180 Charles: Yeah. 1663 02:09:53,440 --> 02:09:56,900 Charles: Victor, you should make a, make a music channel in the small bets. 1664 02:09:57,020 --> 02:09:57,620 Nesters: And then, um... 1665 02:09:57,620 --> 02:09:59,220 Nesters: There are multiple, I believe. 1666 02:09:59,320 --> 02:09:59,660 Nesters: Yes. 1667 02:10:00,980 --> 02:10:03,320 Nesters: Oh no, I guess they wrapped up in one now. 1668 02:10:04,280 --> 02:10:04,760 Nesters: Okay. 1669 02:10:05,600 --> 02:10:06,780 Nesters: Oh no, there's a metal channel. 1670 02:10:06,960 --> 02:10:08,660 Nesters: 20 days ago, there was activity. 1671 02:10:09,000 --> 02:10:11,260 Nesters: And then there's one song I like channel. 1672 02:10:12,660 --> 02:10:15,200 Nesters: Yeah, you should probably revive that metal channel. 1673 02:10:15,580 --> 02:10:16,060 Nesters: Nice. 1674 02:10:16,580 --> 02:10:16,860 Nesters: Yeah. 1675 02:10:17,900 --> 02:10:18,620 Nesters: All right. 1676 02:10:18,740 --> 02:10:20,340 Nesters: Well, thank you for having me, Nestors. 1677 02:10:20,820 --> 02:10:21,880 Nesters: Um, this is... 1678 02:10:21,880 --> 02:10:23,200 Nesters: No, it was a pleasure. 1679 02:10:23,760 --> 02:10:25,280 Nesters: It was actually nice to have you as a guest. 1680 02:10:25,680 --> 02:10:28,800 Nesters: And now hopefully people will actually be able to listen... 1681 02:10:28,800 --> 02:10:33,720 Nesters: actually will listen to this one after, after the space ends, the ones who missed it. 1682 02:10:34,080 --> 02:10:34,180 Nesters: Yeah. 1683 02:10:34,400 --> 02:10:35,560 Nesters: This was a great one. 1684 02:10:36,440 --> 02:10:37,920 Nesters: Thank you all for joining. 1685 02:10:39,200 --> 02:10:39,320 Nesters: Yeah. 1686 02:10:39,420 --> 02:10:42,540 Prince: Thank you to both of you for, you know, speaking for two hours. 1687 02:10:42,800 --> 02:10:44,160 Prince: Yeah, it was good to have you, Nestors. 1688 02:10:45,020 --> 02:10:46,540 Nesters: Yeah, that was great. 1689 02:10:47,120 --> 02:10:53,360 Nesters: And you're always obviously welcome to join to also to listen and also sometimes speak, you know, in some spaces. 1690 02:10:53,900 --> 02:10:54,040 Nesters: Yeah. 1691 02:10:54,300 --> 02:10:58,340 Nesters: As Prince loves coming and joining and asking the questions as well. 1692 02:10:58,840 --> 02:10:59,200 Nesters: Nice. 1693 02:10:59,820 --> 02:11:02,840 Nesters: Um, yeah, we'll see you all in the small bedroom. 1694 02:11:03,680 --> 02:11:04,940 Nesters: Yeah, I love the yappers. 1695 02:11:05,200 --> 02:11:08,940 Nesters: And everyone who wants to, you can go to smallpets.com and join the community. 1696 02:11:09,280 --> 02:11:10,880 Nesters: If you're not already part of it. 1697 02:11:11,420 --> 02:11:12,400 Nesters: It's a great community. 1698 02:11:13,280 --> 02:11:13,720 Wiktor: Yep. 1699 02:11:14,380 --> 02:11:15,380 Wiktor: Long live the yapp. 1700 02:11:15,940 --> 02:11:16,380 Wiktor: Thank you. 1701 02:11:16,680 --> 02:11:17,600 Nesters: Long live the yapp. 1702 02:11:17,840 --> 02:11:18,820 Wiktor: Yeah, yep. 1703 02:11:19,120 --> 02:11:19,760 Wiktor: It's a good one. 1704 02:11:19,760 --> 02:11:20,740 Prince: Have a good one, everybody. 1705 02:11:21,020 --> 02:11:21,580 Prince: Have a good night. 1706 02:11:21,680 --> 02:11:21,820 Prince: Bye. 1707 02:11:22,360 --> 02:11:22,680 Charles: Bye. 1708 02:11:22,960 --> 02:11:23,440 Charles: See you around. 1709 02:11:23,820 --> 02:11:23,980 Nesters: Bye.